BNP vs UAF

[Vanguard1917]

There was a radio 'debate' in February between Weyman Bennett, a leader of Unite Against Fascism, and Simon Darby, a leader of the BNP, which displays some of the most negative aspects of what passes for 'anti-fascism' today. Bennett refuses to engage in rational debate, despite coming on to the show, and only agrees to answer the BNP leader's questions if they're then repeated by the host, Tommy Boyd. Needless to say, this comes across as highly amusing.

Instead of debating the politics on which the BNP's appeal rests, Bennett continuously points out that the BNP is opposed by all respectable forces in British society -- like, according to Bennett, British judges, the British police force and the Church of England -- that they're not a 'normal' political organisation and that there's an 'agreement with all the political parties' of government that the BNP should not be debated. UAF, on the other hand, is argued to be part of respectable politics, since it has the support of people like Tory leader David Cameron and Liberal Democtrat MPs. Bennett's argument is that Simon Darby, while he may wear a suit, is not 'respectable' like those other individuals.

There's also very little actual substance to Bennett's arguments; 'Nazis', 'fascists', 'convicted criminals' -- that's what Bennett's argument against the BNP amounts to. The result: the BNP's Simon Darby comes across pretty well, relatively speaking, to the average listener, while Bennett is made to look thoroughly ridiculous. As one probable BNP sympathiser pointed out in a call-in, had the UAF leader actually responded with some 'real points', 'myself, the listeners, and BNP members' would have been made to 'think critically' and maybe 'think twice' about the BNP's arguments.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwfqBdA21SA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdfA9H2t9Zs&feature=related

[teenagebricks]

It's just about my bedtime so I'll have to listen to this tomorrow but I'm not expecting much, it's a shame they couldn't have got a real antifascist to debate Simon Darby. This is just more free publicity for the fash.

[Hit The North]

It's just about my bedtime so I'll have to listen to this tomorrow but I'm not expecting much, it's a shame they couldn't have got a real antifascist to debate Simon Darby.

The question is whether real anti-fascists should be debating this scum in the first place.

[Holden Caulfield]

Takes about 1 minute before they start banging on about Hitler and the Nazis.

I stopped listening after that.

[h0m0revolutionary]

The question is whether real anti-fascists should be debating this scum in the first place.

That's not the question though is it. What has UAF gained form this, besides having themselves laughed at?

It's exactly the same as when Waymen pulled out of debating Griffin at Oxford, it just makes UAF look stupid. But more sinister it shows the lack of sincerity UAF have in actually tackling fascism.

Of course you don't debate fascists, but you don't mobilise outside and shout 'nazi nazi nazi' at them or drone on for an hour about Hitler either.

UAF have for years done nothing to tackle the rise of fascism except portray the BNP as bogeymen; offering no alternative and they've done so knowingly. Suchshallow cross-class collaberation against the BNP is exactly why the left isn't getting anywhere. Because although they're wrong, at least the BNP is offering an alternative to the establishments privitisation and attacks on working class living conditions.

UAF then is complicit in the rise of fascism and should be made obselete by real anti-fascists accordingly. There is no better friend to the fascists than an ineffective anti-fascist campaign that provides no solutions to working class concerns!

[Hit The North]

Takes about 1 minute before they start banging on about Hitler and the Nazis.

I stopped listening after that.

What do you want, Holden? A serious debate?

Hey, maybe you should get up a petition to get that nice Nick Griffin on BBC's Question Time so he can have a proper debate with David Dimbleby :rolleyes:

[Hit The North]

There is no better friend to the fascists than an ineffective anti-fascist campaign that provides no solutions to working class concerns!

There are better friends to the fascists, mate; let's not deceive ourselves. But I agree with most of your post. If I had my way I'd have my party pull out of the UAF and begin the process of contributing to a non-sectarian workers party with the SP and others.

I watched the BNP's political broadcast tonight and it is becoming obvious that an inter-class coalition strategy which runs on a vague anti-racism agenda is not enough. The broadcast came from Stoke-on-Trent, my old stomping ground, deindustrialised and dirt-poor. Everyone there hates the Labour council which is packed with careerist politicians and they're voting in their droves for the BNP. There is no one else. I also think that it is obvious that the BNP have developed way past the nazi-skinhead-fetishism of the old NF and are poised to concoct a particular form of British right-wing authoritarianism. Whether this will happen or not will obviously be based on a number of contingencies. We'll get a better idea when we see how they fare in the forthcoming European elections. But socialist ideas need to have a presence amongst the class again and this should be our immediate task.

[Devrim]

The question is whether real anti-fascists should be debating this scum in the first place.

I think Weyman Bennett is one of yours. Therefore it's a question you should be asking your own party.

Devrim

[Melbourne Lefty]

Weyman got owned. Its just a good thing that there was probably no-one listening.

[Holden Caulfield]

What do you want, Holden? A serious debate?

Hey, maybe you should get up a petition to get that nice Nick Griffin on BBC's Question Time so he can have a proper debate with David Dimbleby :rolleyes:

No, but if you are there and in that situation (much like say Left List were in the GLA elections - I think thats right) then you must meet them in argument, other wise your 'no platform' policy become a 'hand them the platform and look like a tit without an argument' policy.

If you are going to argue with the BNP try not to cling to some middle class idealist bullshit about them being Nazis (without explaining why you say this, and without class based analysis) and 'democracy'.

UAF made muppets out of themselves yet again.

I like you Bob, I can tolerate the SWP, the sooner the rest of your party see sense (as you seem to have shown glimpses of) and form a federal coalition with the likes of my party, the sooner we can get down to solid class based campaigning to both combat fascism and fight for the working class. The longer you stay in bullshit popular fronts, the worse the British left will become.

[Hit The North]

Sadly I agree.

[Sean]

That's awful, but it does sound like he went into this interview not knowing it was a debate. It reminds me of the DUP vs Sinn Fein. He would have come off better had he stuck with his policy of not talking to BNP and left it at that instead of discussing it poorly. That said, he'd have come off better had he just made fart noises down the phone for 10 minutes because it was dire.

[teenagebricks]

Same shit, some capitalist social democrat using tired arguments which will never win over the working class, makes me sick, Bennett might as well have not been there at all because I'm quite sure this will have reassured a few listeners that a vote for the BNP is a good vote.

[Melbourne Lefty]

About the only real weapon most of the left seems to have against the BNP is to call them nazis.

Now if they go door to door and convince people that they are not nazis... Well it discredits the left and makes them the anti-politics party.:(

And since by my reckoning about 99% of the BNPs membership are NOT nazis it is surprisingly easy for them to convince people of this fact.:(

The word "racist" seems not to be working either, mostly through overuse. People are sick of hearing it. Rightly or wrongly, thats reality.:(

People are out of the habit of thinking in terms of class so giving them a detailed class analysis on the doorstep probably wont work either.:(

What the hell is left? Building a real working class movement would take an awful long time so the only option as I see it is for everyone to join antifa and go on an all out assault on BNP organisers, even members.

It might backfire, but something has to be done.

[Holden Caulfield]

^ When I can be arsed I will write up the contents of an SP flyer regarding the BNP and you can compare it to UAF's (SWP) stuff.

I don't think that we can kick our way to crushing fascism either, weakening their organisations and hampering their ability to organize is but one part of the struggle, we must give a viable left wing alternative as well.

Now if everybody joined the Campaign for a New Workers Party and gave their support to antifa as well then we might get somewhere.

[Pogue]

The only purpose debating with them has if is there is an audience in front of whom you can refute all their shit, so the public see your arguments are better than the BNP's.

[Holden Caulfield]

From a Socialist Party (no2eu) leaflet (i have some small issues with some of the wordings but that is mainly superficial so i will only raise them if necessary):



In the last European elections, in 2004, the racist far-right British National Party (BNP) polled 800,000 votes - their best ever result. There is a real danger that this time, in the European elections on 4th June, the BNP could win seats.

The BNP are a far-right, racist party. They want to introduce apartheid-style racial segregation. To achieve this would create a horrific racial civil war. Many of the BNP's leadership hold fascist views. Their leader, Nick Griffin, denies the Holocaust.

For these reasons and more, millions of workers and young people are anxious to make sure that we stop the rise of the BNP. To do this effectively we have to answer the question - why are the BNP getting more votes?

The vast majority of the people who are considering voting for the BNP do not support, or even know about, the BNP's far right ideas. But we will never stop the rise of the BNP just by telling people what they really stand for, important as this is.

Working class has no party

Most places where the BNP are winning new councillors are working-class communities, which were previously rock-solid Labour areas. Historically Labour was seen as 'our party' by most workers. But today New Labour is is an out-and-out party of big business.

For twelve years New Labour has continued Tory policies. New Labour has looked after the City - the bankers and the hedge fund traders - and left working class people struggling to make ends meet. Where Tories and Liberals have run councils their policies have been virtually identical. In parliament we have three parties for the billionaires and not one for the rest of us.

In Britain in 2008 the gap between rich and poor was the highest of any economically developed country - with the exception of the Us. Now we have been plunged into the worst economic crisis since the 1030s - with the prospect of three million unemployed.

A workers' alternative to the bosses' party

No wonder that people want to protest againt New Labour, Liberals, and the Tories. The BNP are trying to tap into that by falsely posing as a party 'of the white working class'. In reality they are anti-trade union, anti-strike, and not do not challenge the dominion of Britain by a tiny, massively wealthy, elite.

Unfortunately, the response of the majority of the national trade union leaders to the BNP has been to simply join in the pleading with workers not to vote for them, clearly implying that they should instead vote for one of the big three parties. This strategy is doomed failure.

The militant national railway and transport workers union, the RMT, has taken a different approach. Together with trade unionists and socialists, including the Socialist Party, it has taken the decision to contest the European elections - under the name 'no2eu - yes to democracy'.

This pro-working class, anti-racist, internationalist electoral platform represents a real alternative in the European elections. Its candidates include leaders of the Lindsey construction workers strike, and leaders of the Visteon car plant occupations, plus car workers fighting job losses, postal workers resisting privitisation, healthworkers, teachers, fire-fighters, and other workers in our public services. Socialist Party councillor Dave Nellist is one of many Socialist Party activists standing on the list.

As the crisis of the capitalist 'free market' deepens, workers, pensioners and young people have no mass political party to represent them. In the Socialist Party we see 'no2eu - yes to democracy' as a step towards the creation of such a party - to provide an alternative to both the establishment big-business parties and the rabid, racist far-right BNP


This attatchment to reality is why I joined the Socialist Party over other parties.
This leaflet beats the shit of out anything that UAF can pull out their arses.

[Sam_b]

I know this is going off topic and for another thread but:


If I had my way I'd have my party pull out of the UAF and begin the process of contributing to a non-sectarian workers party with the SP and others
You would? From our experiences of this it has got 'failed strategy' written all over it, Bob.

[nuisance]

Now that weren't half embarassing to listen too.

[cornwallrebel]

This guy Weyman Bennett is a complete moron the whole interview sounded ridiculous no wonder the BNP are making gaines while the far-left are left behind!!

[Melbourne Lefty]

This guy Weyman Bennett is a complete moron the whole interview sounded ridiculous no wonder the BNP are making gaines while the far-left are left behind!!

2 posts?

calling us "far left"

anyone else smell fish?:lol:

[InquisitiveBeing]

If you do not debate them then the people are only hearing them.

[Zurdito]

"The Great Crash of 1933"?:confused:

Weyman Bennet was bad but the presenter was shocking, claiming that the BNP is not responsible for any attacks on anyone?

[Pogue]

If you do not debate them then the people are only hearing them.

This I suppose, but then most people probably wont decide who to vote for or support on the back of one debate.