Antifa England statement on European Elections

[Holden Caulfield]

For decades the middle-class Left have told us 'Vote Labouur Without Illusions' - or some other trite slogan. Under Thatcher, they told us we had to vote Labour 'To get Maggie out'. What did that get us? If anything it got us a government that was even further to the Right. Since 1997 New Labour have continued to shit on the poor and institute a vicious Police State. They have completely alienated working-class people, pushed the political agenda immeasurably to the Right, and fostered the rise of the fascist British National Party. Ordinary people are understandably VERY pissed-off with politicians.

The BNP are hoping to capitalise on the current ecconomic crisis by scapegoating immigrants and asylum-seekers, and to capitalise on anger against Westminster by mobilising a so-called 'protest vote' - ie a vote for the fascist BNP. Meanwhile, the drips of 'Unite Against Fascism', 'Hope Not Hate, the 'Socialist Workers Party', and all the other middle-class idiots who told us to vote New Labour in the past, are telling us not to 'waste' our votes! They know that working-class communities are not going to vote Tory, do they really think that a vote for New Labour is a vote AGAINST fascism?! This is the party that has been bombing the shit out of Iraq and Afghanistan for years now, and locking up and deporting refugees en masse.

It is this sort of patronising, condescending stupidity that has led to the rise of the BNP in the first place. It is an insult to the intelligence of ordinary people. Antifa are not calling on people to vote Labour or 'Respect' to stop the BNP, we are calling on people to boycott the whole election charade, and to get out onto the streets and combat the rise of the BNP in the only way that matters - by Direct Action.

We can understand the contempt people rightly have for the mainstream political parties. We can understand why white working-class communities feel abandoned and alienated. But a vote for the BNP is NOT a so-called 'protest vote', it is a vote for FASCISM.

Don't believe any of their lies.

Don't play the politicians' games.

Don't vote.

Organize!

Antifa England
No Pasaran!

[Batman]

Don't vote isn't the best slogan, I don't think. :confused: At the moment people aren't organised as we'd wish. If people didn't vote, it'd simply lead to a far-right group getting majority votes or possibly worse, a complete break down of democracy.

[rednordman]

You know, im starting to get the impression that there is more of a movement against the BNP, than there actually is for the whole of the left. Fighting the BNP is good, but I do dream of a day when our own movements will be so popular that we will not need to even take notice.

Im just looking at all the leftlets that are coming through my door at the moment. All the leftwing-ish ones seem to focus more on the 'threat' of the BNP than their own actual parties. This really pisses me off, as it forces us to actually develop a sort of pedestal for them, rather than not even need to take notice. By the way the media is using the 'bnp threat' slogan, you would almost think that the BNP are actually about to take over parlament, and that we are all doomed.

Its like the labour party and many others are so arrogant that they believe they do not need to be focusing on improving their policies that have failed us for the last ten years, and that apethetic and alienated people are just going to get scared into voting for them.

I do understand the tactic of quashing the threat before it gets going, but in a strange way, all im seeing is more BNP legitimasy. I mean some of the shit that mr griffin comes out with? How on earth can anyone honestly vote for such a man. It perils me that the media are talking of them as being a big threat. If people of britain and other countries in Europe are honestly going to vote for people and parties like that, what does it say about our societies?

I can agree with Antifas advise of not to vote, as quite frankly, no other party deserves it. But, I agree with Batman in that it would probably backfire.

[Batman]

That's a fair enough analysis I think. Fascism breeds, historically when there is a resurgence in the socialist movement. But it also breeds when there is NONE. The fact that the BNP are in such a position highlights the failures of the left who don't seem to be doing the groundwork in working class communities that the BNP are.

[Sam_b]

I'd be interested if they had any proof that the SWP was encouraging a Labour vote at this election.

[Devrim]

I'd be interested if they had any proof that the SWP was encouraging a Labour vote at this election.

Why don't you just tell us what the SWP's position on this election is?

Devrim

[ls]

Why don't you just tell us what the SWP's position on this election is?

Devrim

Some wishy-washy stuff about 'voting left' (as usual might I add, like they urged everyone to vote New Labour in 1997).

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=17775

The typically populist SWP will use anything as yet another catalyst to further their own supposed "revolution". If that means flyposting crap all day and forming coalitions with nasty anti-revolutionary factions like Respect then "so be it".

[MilitantAnarchist]

Don't vote isn't the best slogan, I don't think. :confused: At the moment people aren't organised as we'd wish. If people didn't vote, it'd simply lead to a far-right group getting majority votes or possibly worse, a complete break down of democracy.

Twat
I dont vote, i never will, and no one should...
If voteing changed anything they'd abolish it...
Just... dont get me started

[Holden Caulfield]

Twat
Don't be (needlessly) abusive, when I'm less drunk and when i can be arsed I'll explain to him why he is wrong (unless somebody beats me to it).

The guy is wrong but telling him why he is wrong will get us further than giving him abuse.

cheers
holden

[Batman]

Twat
I dont vote, i never will, and no one should...
If voteing changed anything they'd abolish it...
Just... dont get me started

Good man. How's not voting going to stop the BNP? Cuz at the moment, I don't see the working class being organised outside of representative democracy at the moment in England.

Do you think the BNP, as the biggest threat from the far-right should be given a clear run way in elections?

[Pogue]

Twat
I dont vote, i never will, and no one should...
If voteing changed anything they'd abolish it...
Just... dont get me started

Why call him a twat? He's expressing a valid opinion. If the choice for me was not voting, or voting for a left wing group which shares alot of views with me, such as No2EU, I'd definatly vote No2EU. I don't believe electoralism or reformism changes anything, but clearly it makes sense to keep the BNP out, and I'd like to see a solid left wing alternative filling the space currently dominated/being fought for by right wingers and fascists, just to see how it goes and to have my spirits raised by seeing people are beginning to make better decisions by voting for a left wing group.

[Batman]

Twat
I dont vote, i never will, and no one should...
If voteing changed anything they'd abolish it...
Just... dont get me started

And that's a quote from another reformist, Ken Livingston. :laugh:

[Devrim]

If the choice for me was not voting, or voting for a left wing group which shares alot of views with me, such as No2EU, I'd definatly vote No2EU.

That is not really very anarchist of you, is it?


I don't believe electoralism or reformism changes anything, but clearly it makes sense to keep the BNP out,

It is amazing to see how many anarchists forget about their principles when the nasty BNP comes along and scares them.

Basically what you are saying here is that the anarchist opposition to electoralism only applies when the far right doesn't field a 'nasty' candidate.

Devrim

[teenagebricks]

It makes sense to throw some personal ground rules out of the window when the far right are such a big threat, don't get me wrong, I'm against ballot box politics, but they're not going to change the system just because of a few commies boycotting elections. We live in a parliamentary democracy, we may not like it, but we do, and until that changes I'm going to reluctantly use the vote I'm entitled to. Anyone who thinks that letting the BNP win just so that they can say "I didn't vote because I'm an anarchist so fuck you" is the right way to go about things is a complete joker.

[Devrim]

It makes sense to throw some personal ground rules out of the window when the far right are such a big threat, don't get me wrong, I'm against ballot box politics, but they're not going to change the system just because of a few commies boycotting elections. We live in a parliamentary democracy, we may not like it, but we do, and until that changes I'm going to reluctantly use the vote I'm entitled to. Anyone who thinks that letting the BNP win just so that they can say "I didn't vote because I'm an anarchist so fuck you" is the right way to go about things is a complete joker.

As I understand the anarchist position it is not a moral one of personally rejecting electoralism, but one which recognises that elections can not be used to change society, and that all they offer to the working class is mystification.

We are not going to 'change the system just because of a few commies boycotting elections', but then neither are we going to 'change the system' by taking part in them either.

To advocate a vote is to play a part in that mystification, and is a rejection of the anarchist analysis.

That is my point here. It is amazing how people drop key parts of their political ideas when confronted with what is in my opinion a not 'such a big threat' from the far right.

At least the Antifa statement is consistent.

Devrim

[Melbourne Lefty]

You know, im starting to get the impression that there is more of a movement against the BNP, than there actually is for the whole of the left.


you too huh?

I am not a full blown anarchist so I would vote for No2EU.

I know voting changes nothing, but reformist arguments have appeal, especially when I look at the BNP growing and setting up grassroots networks and the left just doesnt.

[teenagebricks]

That is my point here. It is amazing how people drop key parts of their political ideas when confronted with what is in my opinion a not 'such a big threat' from the far right.
To be quite honest with you I would willingly drop all of my political ideas if it meant I could keep the fash out, but I guess it's a personal thing, and I personally believe that fighting Nazis on whatever front possible is far more important than conforming to some ideology. Above all else I am antifascist, so communism, capitalism, democracy, Karl bloody Marx, they are all secondary.

[Devrim]

To be quite honest with you I would willingly drop all of my political ideas if it meant I could keep the fash out,

I don't think it is particular important. I don't think that they have much chance of ever winning a general election in the UK, and I think that the Labour party will continue to enact anti-working class, anti-immigrant and ethnic minorities, and imperialistic actions abroad that the fascists can only fantasise about.

We had the fascists in a coalition government in the parliament before last in Turkey. It didn't make much difference.

Devrim

[bellyscratch]

That is not really very anarchist of you, is it?

It is amazing to see how many anarchists forget about their principles when the nasty BNP comes along and scares them.

Basically what you are saying here is that the anarchist opposition to electoralism only applies when the far right doesn't field a 'nasty' candidate.

Devrim

Its not like he's standing himself as a candidate. If the BNP are trying to come across as respectable and getting power through the 'legitimate' existing system, then they need to be opposed through that same system, while at the same time using direct action against them.

Taking 5 minutes out of your life to vote in an election isn't exactly trading in his anarchist beliefs. Its not always bad to use the system for your own advantage...

[Devrim]

Taking 5 minutes out of your life to vote in an election isn't exactly trading in his anarchist beliefs. Its not always bad to use the system for your own advantage...

It isn't about 'trading in beliefs'. It is about a world view. Anarchists believe that parliament can not change anything. It is quite an important part of their theory. Therefore, they either believe this, in which case they wouldn't vote, or they don't in which case it is logical to vote, but it would mean that they didn't hold to basic anarchist ideas.

Dervim

[bellyscratch]

It isn't about 'trading in beliefs'. It is about a world view. Anarchists believe that parliament can not change anything. It is quite an important part of their theory. Therefore, they either believe this, in which case they wouldn't vote, or they don't in which case it is logical to vote, but it would mean that they didn't hold to basic anarchist ideas.

Dervim

Sometimes you might have to do things you don't really want to in politics.

[Omi]

The BNP aren't trying to take power through the existing ''legitimate'' system, this system spawned them, and participating in it legitimises this system. This electorial system only gains legitimacy on the condition that people legitimize it. And that is what you do by participating in it. This has nothing to do with personal rejections of some kind, or some lifestyle anarchists are bound to, this has to do with politics. And voting in the election to by some miracle actually change the face of this system by keeping the BNP out, is un-anarchistic pur sang. It's fine by me, and do what you want, but in essence it's anti-revolutionairy.

[Devrim]

Sometimes you might have to do things you don't really want to in politics.

I really think that you don't get what I am saying. It is not about wanting to do this or that. It is about practice being intrinsicly linked to ideas.

If for example you believe, as anarchists do, that elections can not change anything, there is no reason to vote in an election because you don't think that it will change anything.

If you believe that voting in an election can change things, in however small a way, then you are rejecting a basic tenet of anarchism.

Whether voting can effect change is a different question, but if you believe that it can't then there is no reason to vote.

If you believe that it can, then you are not an anarchist.

Devrim

[Batman]

As I understand the anarchist position it is not a moral one of personally rejecting electoralism, but one which recognises that elections can not be used to change society, and that all they offer to the working class is mystification.

If that's the case what harm if the BNP win an election??

[Devrim]

If that's the case what harm if the BNP win an election??

I am not an anarchist. I am just explaining their position. However, as we all know the BNP have no chance in hell of wining a general election in Britain, so your question isn't really relevant.

Devrim

[Pogue]

That is not really very anarchist of you, is it?



I don't really see the problem. I don't think it takes a genius to recognise that the BNP having alot of influence in my area would be alot worse than a left wing coalition having alot of influence in my area. If the BNP came to power my life would become worse, and would the lives of my friends. I don't think voting can change things enough but it clearly changes something, and so if I could vote to prevent racists running my area, obviously I would. I think thats just common sense.


It is amazing to see how many anarchists forget about their principles when the nasty BNP comes along and scares them.

Basically what you are saying here is that the anarchist opposition to electoralism only applies when the far right doesn't field a 'nasty' candidate.


I am only one anarchist, Devrim. I represent no one but myself in this view. Some comrades may completely disagree with me. But I'm not contradicting any principles. No one said anarchists cannot vote, we just recognise it is no substitute for revolutionary class struggle. I'd vote for a left wing party to keep a right wing party out of my council anyday, because the policies of local politicians has an impact on my life. If one party claimed that if it was elected, it'd close my local park, I'd vote against them, to prevent the park being closed. Seems like common sense oncemore.


As I understand the anarchist position it is not a moral one of personally rejecting electoralism, but one which recognises that elections can not be used to change society, and that all they offer to the working class is mystification.

We are not going to 'change the system just because of a few commies boycotting elections', but then neither are we going to 'change the system' by taking part in them either.

To advocate a vote is to play a part in that mystification, and is a rejection of the anarchist analysis.

That is my point here. It is amazing how people drop key parts of their political ideas when confronted with what is in my opinion a not 'such a big threat' from the far right.

At least the Antifa statement is consistent.

There is no unified anarchist position on voting beyond that it wont abolish capitalism. Clearly what party is in power has some effect. For example, Thatcher behaved differently in power as the Conservatives to how Atlee behaved. Its not as though by voting I fundamentally stop being an anarchist - thats absurd. If I stood for election as a means to bring about a libertarian communist society, that'd be absurd and a contradiction of principles. There is no 'rule' in anarchism which says you shouldn't vote. I have some of my own principles and logic not bound by my ideological strand - clearly, if it comes down to cuts to public services in my area or no cuts, and I could vote for no cuts, I will do this. Similarly, if the BNP are trying to gain power in my area and I could cast a vote purely designed to prevent this (and perhaps make some No2EU types feel better about themselves), I will do this too.


I really think that you don't get what I am saying. It is not about wanting to do this or that. It is about practice being intrinsicly linked to ideas.

If for example you believe, as anarchists do, that elections can not change anything, there is no reason to vote in an election because you don't think that it will change anything.

If you believe that voting in an election can change things, in however small a way, then you are rejecting a basic tenet of anarchism.

Whether voting can effect change is a different question, but if you believe that it can't then there is no reason to vote.

If you believe that it can, then you are not an anarchist.

Your taking quite an immature position. The idea of 'Voting changes nothing' comes form the grand scheme of things, i.e. that voting will never change that big thing - capitalism. All anarchists agree with this, and I think you understand the meaning of the term too. No anarchist is stupid enough to believe voting literally changes *nothing* at all. Clearly, as I said, there is a huge difference between Thatcherites and Social Democrats in the policies they enact. Clearly voting out a right wing government for a more left wing one will produce a change in circumstance for the nation. Not a huge one, not enough, not a revolution, but there will be a change.

Similarly with the BNP. Voting clearly does change something if it means I can vote whcih will prevent them getting into power. It wont cause a revolution or fix the world, but it will be a change. If a social democrat party was elected, it'd be a change, so yes, it does change something, but not the fundamental system and it doesn't change enough. This is like me saying your contradicitng your principles by saying you live in Turkey because 'Workers have no country'. That'd be me purposefully misinterpreting a slogan just to try and have a dig at you.


I am not an anarchist. I am just explaining their position. However, as we all know the BNP have no chance in hell of wining a general election in Britain, so your question isn't really relevant.

But they can change things on a local level, and also, by getting elected to the European parliament, they get alot of publicity, money, and links to other European fascist groups. This is clearly something I'd like to prevent, and if I could prevent this by voting for No2EU, thus decreasing the BNP's share of the vote, then I will do it. It seems like commonsense to me. Like with the example of my local park - if say, the Conservatives said they were closing it, and the Greens said they'd keep it open, and I enjoy going to the park, clearly I would vote for the Greens, and if they one it would make a significant difference to my life. It wouldn't make a revolution or establish communism but it'd be a difference which would serve my interests.

[nuisance]

Then there's the whole dispute that voting is irrational, one vote will not tide over the outcome.
I do hope that the people encouraging voting to keep the BNP out, which with inevitably be for groups that have contributed to creating the cess pit which the BNP are capitalising on, participate in anti-fascism outside of electoralism using non-bourgeois means. Or is this all down to laziness?
Lines have been drawn between Thatcher behaving different to Atlee, for me this undermines simple analysis. Thatcher was elected to convience the capitalist class and when she was seen to be sinking the capitalist press and cnsequently the rest of the Tory party suddenly declared that she was stubborn and dictatoral- previously in the first two terms these attributes were classed as strong and willful.

[MilitantAnarchist]

Saying 'vote for someone so BNP doesnt get in' is complete bollocks! Thats a ploy from Labour and those wankers, i seen a labour campaign van with the same slogan on the side... 'a vote for labour is a vote that hasnt gone to bnp' and all that... its crap.
And to that bloke who said 'ken livingstone said that' (if voteing changed anything they'd abolish it) i didnt no he said that... but he hasnt been the only person to say that you know.
Voteing is just an illusion. And the way i see it (im sure you'll point me out as wrong)... Youve basically got to vote for tory or labour to make a difference right? because its between them two and the BNP... its the lesser of the evils, but how is it going to stop the BNP? You vote for some small party... its not going to help anyone out, because unless your already going to vote BNP your not taking a vote from them are you?
Thats how i see it... plus, it really doesnt matter who you vote for, the government gets in. (did ken livingstone say that to? and are you his biggest fan or somthing?)

[Batman]

Youve basically got to vote for tory or labour to make a difference right?

No, preferably vote for a left wing party that is rooted in the working class or maybe in the interim vote for an independent working class candidate? I don't think people should vote for Labour, as they're the ones who've created the situation where people see the far-right as a viable alternative electorally.


did ken livingstone say that to? and are you his biggest fan or somthing?)

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Batman]

I am not an anarchist. I am just explaining their position. However, as we all know the BNP have no chance in hell of wining a general election in Britain, so your question isn't really relevant.

Devrim

I'm talking about local elections.

[Devrim]

I don't really see the problem. I don't think it takes a genius to recognise that the BNP having alot of influence in my area would be alot worse than a left wing coalition having alot of influence in my area. If the BNP came to power my life would become worse, and would the lives of my friends. I don't think voting can change things enough but it clearly changes something, and so if I could vote to prevent racists running my area, obviously I would. I think thats just common sense.

Of course in a very banal way elections can change things if only in that they change the name of the party administering the state. We look at in a very different way from anarchists. For us all bourgeois parties are equally reactionary.

The BNP is not the only racist party in the UK. Which party do you think had billboards saying "If you want a nigger for a neighbour, vote Labour"? Which party is it that now runs detention camps for asylum seekers, and sends in police to kick down people's doors to deport them. It wasn't the BNP.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if racists already ran your area, and I am not sure if the BNP came to power, which we all know that it is not going to, it would be particularly worse.


I am only one anarchist, Devrim. I represent no one but myself in this view.

Yes, I was referring to a general trend, not just you.


Some comrades may completely disagree with me. But I'm not contradicting any principles. No one said anarchists cannot vote, we just recognise it is no substitute for revolutionary class struggle. I'd vote for a left wing party to keep a right wing party out of my council anyday, because the policies of local politicians has an impact on my life.

Why actually they don't have much influence, but I don't see why a 'left-wing' administration would be preferable. Do you think that workers being made redundant feel any better when a so-called 'socialist' kicks them out of work?


If one party claimed that if it was elected, it'd close my local park, I'd vote against them, to prevent the park being closed. Seems like common sense oncemore.

But what is the alternative to closing your park? Is it cutting school dinners or sacking dustbin cart crews? The budget still has to be managed. Austerity programmes have to be implemented by bourgoies parties of all colours.


There is no unified anarchist position on voting beyond that it wont abolish capitalism.

I always thought that anarchists rejected participation in borgoies democracy.


Thatcher behaved differently in power as the Conservatives to how Atlee behaved.

Why do you think this was, because of the dictates of the economy and the political situation at the time, or because she was 'bad'?


But they can change things on a local level, and also, by getting elected to the European parliament, they get alot of publicity, money, and links to other European fascist groups. This is clearly something I'd like to prevent, and if I could prevent this by voting for No2EU, thus decreasing the BNP's share of the vote, then I will do it.

And here is the heart of the difference. You think they are fundamentally worse than the other major political parties. I think that they are not, and that the people bombing Afghanistan, shooting people in Iraq, attacking workers living conditions, and expelling asylum seekers are the most dangerous ones at the moment.

Devrim

[Batman]

I always thought that anarchists rejected participation in borgoies democracy.


What about the Spanish anarchists?

[Devrim]

What about the Spanish anarchists?

That is a good point really. I think they are widely condemned for it by anarchists today though.

Devrim

[Holden Caulfield]

There has been so much random shit said in this thread I dont even know where to start with a reply...

I will say this tho: I find it funny that people thank my post when I support voting (with no illusions though) in the European Elections (for no2eu)

[Pogue]

Of course in a very banal way elections can change things if only in that they change the name of the party administering the state. We look at in a very different way from anarchists. For us all bourgeois parties are equally reactionary.

The BNP is not the only racist party in the UK. Which party do you think had billboards saying "If you want a nigger for a neighbour, vote Labour"? Which party is it that now runs detention camps for asylum seekers, and sends in police to kick down people's doors to deport them. It wasn't the BNP.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if racists already ran your area, and I am not sure if the BNP came to power, which we all know that it is not going to, it would be particularly worse.

I don't support Labour so you know, its irrelevant. I'd never encourage someone to vote for Labour.


Yes, I was referring to a general trend, not just you.

No such trend exists. Its entirely fabricated.


Why actually they don't have much influence, but I don't see why a 'left-wing' administration would be preferable. Do you think that workers being made redundant feel any better when a so-called 'socialist' kicks them out of work?

I never mentioned sacking people. I'm the last person who needs ot be educated on the failings of social democracy and capitalism. I'm just saying, if it was the BNP running my council or say, the Greens or Socialist Party, I'd rather thave the Greens or the Socialists anyday, and so would vote to that effect. The same way I'd always only ever vote for a left wing group, almost as a protest vote, but mainly to keep the right wingers and fascists out of power.


But what is the alternative to closing your park? Is it cutting school dinners or sacking dustbin cart crews? The budget still has to be managed. Austerity programmes have to be implemented by bourgoies parties of all colours.

A bit of a strawman. Clearly, there are things which a socialist party MP would do in my area alot better than a BNP candidate. I'd keep the BNP person out. Not by voting Labour, Conservative or Lib Dem but by registering a vote for a more left wing group, to oppose the BNP. Ticking that cross takes hardly any time at all.


Why do you think this was, because of the dictates of the economy and the political situation at the time, or because she was 'bad'?

Because she had a political vision she believed in which desired more wealth for the ruling class and the weakening of the working class, and she acted to that effect. The same things wouldn't have occured if Foot was elected. Things wouldn't have been perfect, obviously, but they wouldn't have gone the same. I'm not saying other politicans are socialist or revolutionary just recognising some elements of the bourgeoisie political apparatus are more left wing than others. This is a simple fact and I find it absurd you cannot grasp it. As I said, there is a clear difference between a pro-nationalisation, pro public spending government and one which favours privatisation and public spending cuts.


And here is the heart of the difference. You think they are fundamentally worse than the other major political parties. I think that they are not, and that the people bombing Afghanistan, shooting people in Iraq, attacking workers living conditions, and expelling asylum seekers are the most dangerous ones at the moment.

Another strawman. I never said the BNP are worse than Labour. I encourage people not to vote Labour as much as I encourage people not to vote the BNP. However I recognise it'd be better for people to vote for No2EU, a left wing group, than it would be Labour or the BNP. I find the BNP and Labour alike disgusting and oppose them both, but for people who still feel compelled to vote for a party they think will best represent them, or just want to vote to oppose the BNP, I'd tell them that No2EU is the best choice, as they are a coalition of people who are anti-EU, pro-union, pro-worker, anti-war etc.

[Devrim]

No such trend exists. Its entirely fabricated.

No, it is not. There are always anarchists who are willing to abandon abstentionism at the slightest hint of a threat from the right. Trust me on this one. I have been around long enough to know.


I never mentioned sacking people. I'm the last person who needs ot be educated on the failings of social democracy and capitalism. I'm just saying, if it was the BNP running my council or say, the Greens or Socialist Party, I'd rather thave the Greens or the Socialists anyday, and so would vote to that effect. The same way I'd always only ever vote for a left wing group, almost as a protest vote, but mainly to keep the right wingers and fascists out of power.

I know that you never mentioned sacking people, but do you think that the Greens or the socialists can run the municipality in the absence of the laws of capital. When cuts have to be made, cuts have to be made. So called 'socialists' are not adverse to imposing them, and nor are they adverse to enforcing them with the physical force of the state. Look at Tony Benn for example.


A bit of a strawman. Clearly, there are things which a socialist party MP would do in my area alot better than a BNP candidate. I'd keep the BNP person out. Not by voting Labour, Conservative or Lib Dem but by registering a vote for a more left wing group, to oppose the BNP. Ticking that cross takes hardly any time at all.

I am not sure how you actually intend to keep the BNP out by voting for No2EU, but never mind.


Because she had a political vision she believed in which desired more wealth for the ruling class and the weakening of the working class, and she acted to that effect. The same things wouldn't have occured if Foot was elected. Things wouldn't have been perfect, obviously, but they wouldn't have gone the same.

No, things wouldn't have been exactly the same, but the pits would still have to have been closed. You can't escape from the economy.


I'm not saying other politicans are socialist or revolutionary just recognising some elements of the bourgeoisie political apparatus are more left wing than others. This is a simple fact and I find it absurd you cannot grasp it. As I said, there is a clear difference between a pro-nationalisation, pro public spending government and one which favours privatisation and public spending cuts.

But the Labour party is not left-wing in the sense of being socialist. It is a left-wing bourgeois party. Its function is to increase profits and run capitalism. The policies are forced upon political parties by the demands of the economy and politics. In the 1980s, we saw the shift towards privatisation and monetarism. This was lead by right wing politicians, but where 'left-wing' governments managed to remain in power, they instituted the same policies. Now we have seen a return to a more Keynesian approach of state intervention, originally lead by no other than Bush's government.


Another strawman. I never said the BNP are worse than Labour. I encourage people not to vote Labour as much as I encourage people not to vote the BNP. However I recognise it'd be better for people to vote for No2EU, a left wing group, than it would be Labour or the BNP. I find the BNP and Labour alike disgusting and oppose them both, but for people who still feel compelled to vote for a party they think will best represent them, or just want to vote to oppose the BNP, I'd tell them that No2EU is the best choice, as they are a coalition of people who are anti-EU, pro-union, pro-worker, anti-war etc.

I can't see why they are a better choice, and I don't think that they have anything to offer the working class.

Devrim

[Pogue]

No, it is not. There are always anarchists who are willing to abandon abstentionism at the slightest hint of a threat from the right. Trust me on this one. I have been around long enough to know.


I'm sorry but 'I have experienced this, trust me' is not a valid response to an unfounded claim.


I know that you never mentioned sacking people, but do you think that the Greens or the socialists can run the municipality in the absence of the laws of capital. When cuts have to be made, cuts have to be made. So called 'socialists' are not adverse to imposing them, and nor are they adverse to enforcing them with the physical force of the state. Look at Tony Benn for example.

This is why I am not a social democrat or democratic socialist.


I am not sure how you actually intend to keep the BNP out by voting for No2EU, but never mind.

I would have thought it was pretty clear, if enough people vote for a party that is not the BNP, the BNP wont get in. No2EU are probably the only party running without a shameful history/being guilty in some other crime, like the Iraq war, which I am pretty sure almost everyone of their membership opposed.


No, things wouldn't have been exactly the same, but the pits would still have to have been closed. You can't escape from the economy.


Some things are inescapable, of course, but you said that it makes no difference who you vote for. You now seem to have gone back on this. I was saying its obvious voting for a more left wing party, i.e. on the political specturm, more alligned to social democracy than Thatcherism, will produce different results politically than voting for a Thatcherite party. And on social policy, voting for a non racist party will have better results than voting for a racist party.


But the Labour party is not left-wing in the sense of being socialist. It is a left-wing bourgeois party. Its function is to increase profits and run capitalism. The policies are forced upon political parties by the demands of the economy and politics. In the 1980s, we saw the shift towards privatisation and monetarism. This was lead by right wing politicians, but where 'left-wing' governments managed to remain in power, they instituted the same policies. Now we have seen a return to a more Keynesian approach of state intervention, originally lead by no other than Bush's government.


Theres no need for you to explain to me capitalist economics. I understand all this, which is why I am a revolutionary and not a reformist. I'm just saying clearly, its preferable not to have a bunch of racists running my area than it is a group of centre-leftists. I have no illusions about what the cnetre-leftists will do but at the end of the day seeing social democrats running my council to me is nicer than seeing fascists.

I'm not an electoralist, which is why I am involved in revolutionary syndicalist/direct action approaches to building communism and in the process fighting fascism. But I recognise in this election alot of people are looking to vote and alot of people will vote BNP. I know the consequences of people voting BNP is the BNP getting more money, publicity, chances for links, etc. So for this reason I'd cast a vote, because its so easy, to keep the fascists out of politics and my community. It takes 10 minutes, it'd be no major interuption to my life. As it is though I'm not even old enough to vote, but for those I know who want to vote and, as with everyone I know well, doesn't want to vote for the BNP and isn't comfortable with the neo-liberals either, I am reccomending they vote No2EU because it is the most acceptable and left wing group running.



I can't see why they are a better choice, and I don't think that they have anything to offer the working class.


Because a group of trade unionists, social democrats and a few revolutionaries having the power, influence and support a good result in this election would bring, is infinitely preferable to the fascists having it. At the worst, No2EU will blow it on some party event somewhere, whereas the BNP would use it to get a stronget foothold in working class areas by campaigning harder, printing more leaflets, etc. I'd rather the social democrats use it on a demonstration against Israeli state brutality or welfare cuts than the BNP use it to print off a load of leaflets telling us why we should be proud of our 'indigenous ethnic identity' or how 'blacks cause all the crime'.

[Killfacer]

Really though, no2eu are never going to have any impact what so ever. They will be trounced by the BNP in every department.

[Pogue]

Really though, no2eu are never going to have any impact what so ever. They will be trounced by the BNP in every department.

What I am more interested in is seeing how the Socialist Party's Campaign For a New Workers Party turns out. I think it has potential, but it wont succeed, but thats just because I believe revolutionary politics are no bastion for revolutionary struggle and also that I think any new workers party would wind up like Labour anyway.

I must admit I have a bit of a worrying tendecy to feel like there needs to be a electoral working class alternative to the BNP, but that contradicts my politics and is borne more out of a deserpation than anything else. Its mainly just that - desperation and a lack of imagination. In reality, the fascist movement will be utterly obliverated into insignificance by a militant working class movement expressed in the actions of a militant, worker run revolutionary union and radical residents associations which empower people and practically demonstrate class solidarity and the follies of nationalism and racism.

[Killfacer]

They're a bit crap though. Why are they concentrating on the EU. The bankers, politicians and police are all majorly disliked by the public at the moment. What does the left do? Start talking about europe :confused:

The BNP have the right idea, they're talking about the sleaze in the government at the moment. They're going to make huge gains because the left is bumbling around in cloud nine.

[Pogue]

They're a bit crap though. Why are they concentrating on the EU. The bankers, politicians and police are all majorly disliked by the public at the moment. What does the left do? Start talking about europe :confused:

The BNP have the right idea, they're talking about the sleaze in the government at the moment. They're going to make huge gains because the left is bumbling around in cloud nine.

Well theres been alot of stuff in the Socialist Worker about the corrupt politicians and various anarcho papers have been focusing on it too, such as Freedom and Direct Action. I'm sure Resistance, Organise and WAG are commenting on it too, and theres a demo coming up against police brutality.

Beyond that, what do you expect? Its an election, its what left wing parties will focus on. The anarcho movement is focusing on important stuff, but as ever we're lacking in numbers and much of a platform. Why don't you join us Killfacer?

(talk about anything like this in PMs/MSN)

[MilitantAnarchist]

Like i said, unless you were going to vote for BNP and then didnt... voting no2eu is pointless... all voteing is (but that isnt the issue here)
The only way to combat BNP is through direct action.

http://bnpmembership.blogspot.com/

I meen, fuck me you all go on about working class ideologies but it seems to me its a very middle class attude... l"ets talk about it"... "lets vote against them"... FUCK THAT
unless we organise and show our anger on the street, unless we are there at every BNP meeting, and every time they leaflet, opposing them, in their face 24/7, we are never going to stop them. Anyone telling you to 'vote for us to stop the bnp" is just capitalising for their own personal greed.... dont buy into it.

FUCK THE BNP!

[teenagebricks]

In the case of the major parties, you are right, but groups like NO2EU and Socialist Labour are not capitalising for their own personal greed, have a read through some of their policies. Some people just don't want to get involved in direct action, it's regrettable, but true nonetheless. We all know voting is crap, and it may not get rid of the problems we are facing now, but it can help to keep bigger problems such as the BNP at bay.

[Killfacer]

Well theres been alot of stuff in the Socialist Worker about the corrupt politicians and various anarcho papers have been focusing on it too, such as Freedom and Direct Action. I'm sure Resistance, Organise and WAG are commenting on it too, and theres a demo coming up against police brutality.

Beyond that, what do you expect? Its an election, its what left wing parties will focus on. The anarcho movement is focusing on important stuff, but as ever we're lacking in numbers and much of a platform. Why don't you join us Killfacer?

(talk about anything like this in PMs/MSN)

I understand that but why are No2eu concentrating on the eu? It seems hopelessly off topic.

[Holden Caulfield]

I understand that but why are No2eu concentrating on the eu? It seems hopelessly off topic.

because the EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT ELECTIONS are coming up.
:)

That is what they are standing in, they are a electoral coalition, not a new workers party.

[SmashTheFash123]

This whole thing makes me sick. I've just found out my dad is planning to vote for the BNP. I always knew he was a reactionary (reads the Daily Mail) but not THAT far to the right.

I called him a nazi and a racist and I got the whole about "immigrants taking jobs, white men are oppressed" bullshit. Fuck him. Thank fuck university is only a few months away.

I tell you all that something has to be done in the next 3 weeks to stop the fascist BNP getting EU funding. I don't know what they'd be able to do with that funding but it'd be fair to say it'd boost them a fair bit (considering they haven't raised the 390k they want for their election campaign yet, but would get 250k a year if they got an MEP.

It's honestly coming to the point where I don't know if we're only talking about the prospect of them winning one seat, or more. A few months ago it was generally accepted they were only in the running for one seat, but I've seen some newspapers predicting 3 (North West, Yorkshire, West Midlands).

We need to get out on the streets and protest. I know some of you have issues with Searchlight/UAF. But they're the only ones doing much against the BNP. By all means, after June 4th has passed, start criticising them again, but surely we can unite in the face of the fascist enemy for a few weeks and make the difference?

[Killfacer]

because the EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT ELECTIONS are coming up.
:)

That is what they are standing in, they are a electoral coalition, not a new workers party.

ahahhaha yeah.

Have you seen the BNP campaigns? They're not only concentrating on europe.

[bellyscratch]

This whole thing makes me sick. I've just found out my dad is planning to vote for the BNP. I always knew he was a reactionary (reads the Daily Mail) but not THAT far to the right.

I called him a nazi and a racist and I got the whole about "immigrants taking jobs, white men are oppressed" bullshit. Fuck him. Thank fuck university is only a few months away.


I understand your situation. Both my dad and brother vote BNP. I've seen my Dad twice and brother once since I've been at uni and I'm in my final weeks of it now. We just disagree on too many things to have a relationship anymore

[Holden Caulfield]

ahahhaha yeah.

Have you seen the BNP campaigns? They're not only concentrating on europe.

True but no2eu is a coalition just for the EP elections so they cannot really campaign on other things can they, the BNP stand in other elections and so can

[Pogue]

I think the problem is, the BNP can clock up support quickly by simply winning votes, addressing populist issues, etc. They then get their votes and being an electoral party this is how they grow.

With us we're more about building a permanent, worker run revolutionary movement which takes alot longer and thus we fall behind basically, because for us its not as simple as saying 'Vote for us', we're more like 'Organise! Fight back!'.

[teenagebricks]

This whole thing makes me sick. I've just found out my dad is planning to vote for the BNP. I always knew he was a reactionary (reads the Daily Mail) but not THAT far to the right.
That sucks, but it may just be a case of ignorance, I'm not going to call your Dad a Nazi because he probably isn't. I had exactly the same problem with my Mum, so I printed off a copy of the BNP manifesto and took it to her house, she quickly decided she was going to vote for someone else because she's strongly opposed to capital and corporal punishment, plus she didn't actually realise they were racist, ignorance is the main problem. She'll probably end up voting Tory but that's completely fine by me considering she was going to vote for the BNP before. Try to show your Dad what the BNP really stand for, show him some YouTube videos or something, if you can persuade him to vote to vote for someone else instead, that's still a small victory, even if it is UKIP that would still be better.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1181668/MARTIN-SAMUEL-Protest-vote-Vote-fascist-fascist-.html

[Melbourne Lefty]

I've just found out my dad is planning to vote for the BNP.

too bad



I called him a nazi and a racist


Im sure that he saw the light after your reasoned and well thought out argument.

I know many of us ARE teenagers but do we always need to sound like teenagers?

[Devrim]

I'm sorry but 'I have experienced this, trust me' is not a valid response to an unfounded claim.

Well no, it is not, but I wasn't really aware of what I said being in anyway controversial. If you want some evidence of it you could go over to Libcom and check old threads on the BNP, or if you truly doubt that 'There are always anarchists who are willing to abandon abstentionism at the slightest hint of a threat from the right' you could check the history of the Spanish CNT. True there is more than the 'slightist hint', but it ends with them completely abandoning class politics and entring the bourgoies government. It is called betrayal.


I would have thought it was pretty clear, if enough people vote for a party that is not the BNP, the BNP wont get in. No2EU are probably the only party running without a shameful history/being guilty in some other crime, like the Iraq war, which I am pretty sure almost everyone of their membership opposed.

But you know that No2EU has no chance of getting in and keeping out the BNP, right. There isn't much logic here. You seem to want to vote to keep out the BNP but can't bring yourself to vote for people who can do it.


Some things are inescapable, of course, but you said that it makes no difference who you vote for. You now seem to have gone back on this.

I don't think that I have gone back on anything. Maybe I should have added an adjective such as 'real' before change, but your argument here is on such an abstract level.


And on social policy, voting for a non racist party will have better results than voting for a racist party.

When you get down to more concrete things with your talk about voting for a racist party or an non-racist party, and please do remeber I am not advocating voting for either. I think that you are divorced from reality. All of the main bourgoise parties are racist. That means that if you vote for a non-racist party, you are voting for somebody who won't get in, which won't have any 'better' results at all.


I was saying its obvious voting for a more left wing party, i.e. on the political specturm, more alligned to social democracy than Thatcherism, will produce different results politically than voting for a Thatcherite party.

Yes the y might be different but they both lauch attacks on the working class albit in different ways. Which party was it that implemented the 5% ceiling in 1979? Which party was it that sent the troops into Northern Ireland? I could go on, but I think that the point is made.


Theres no need for you to explain to me capitalist economics. I understand all this, which is why I am a revolutionary and not a reformist. I'm just saying clearly, its preferable not to have a bunch of racists running my area than it is a group of centre-leftists. I have no illusions about what the cnetre-leftists will do but at the end of the day seeing social democrats running my council to me is nicer than seeing fascists.

Well if it 'is nicer', we should just throw all of the political arguments out of the window. Of course, we know that the BNP is not going to end up running your area at all. It is just another example of the scaremongering that goes on about the BNP.


But I recognise in this election alot of people are looking to vote and alot of people will vote BNP. I know the consequences of people voting BNP is the BNP getting more money, publicity, chances for links, etc.

And the alternative is another bourgoies party winning and 'more money, publicity...' for them, and I thought that we were in agreement earlier that the Labour Party is more dangerous than the BNP.


So for this reason I'd cast a vote, because its so easy, to keep the fascists out of politics and my community. It takes 10 minutes, it'd be no major interuption to my life. As it is though I'm not even old enough to vote, but for those I know who want to vote and, as with everyone I know well, doesn't want to vote for the BNP and isn't comfortable with the neo-liberals either, I am reccomending they vote No2EU because it is the most acceptable and left wing group running

But surely what you should be discussing with people is not how to waste ten minutes, but the actual nature of the electoral system, and how it can't bring any form of (real) change. Putting their hopes in an organisation like No2EU will not in anyway defend workers. By arguing for a vote for them, you play a part, however small, in that mystification.


Because a group of trade unionists, social democrats and a few revolutionaries having the power, influence and support a good result in this election would bring, is infinitely preferable to the fascists having it.

Firstly I don't think that any of these people are revolutionaries. They are social-democrats. Secondly, they are not going to get a good result. Finally, I really hate the sort of nationalism calling for national independence which comes out of the left.

One thing that always seems a little ironic to me in this sort of discussions is why they always seem to end up with left communists defending anarchist principles from anarchists.

Devrim

[Killfacer]

True but no2eu is a coalition just for the EP elections so they cannot really campaign on other things can they, the BNP stand in other elections and so can

Who cares? Most voters don't really care what election it is. I guarentee you that a lot of BNP voters are simply voting against the current mainstream parties.

What election it is is irrelevant, they should be campaigning about something people care about.

[Pogue]

Well no, it is not, but I wasn't really aware of what I said being in anyway controversial. If you want some evidence of it you could go over to Libcom and check old threads on the BNP, or if you truly doubt that 'There are always anarchists who are willing to abandon abstentionism at the slightest hint of a threat from the right' you could check the history of the Spanish CNT. True there is more than the 'slightist hint', but it ends with them completely abandoning class politics and entring the bourgoies government. It is called betrayal.



But you know that No2EU has no chance of getting in and keeping out the BNP, right. There isn't much logic here. You seem to want to vote to keep out the BNP but can't bring yourself to vote for people who can do it.



I don't think that I have gone back on anything. Maybe I should have added an adjective such as 'real' before change, but your argument here is on such an abstract level.



When you get down to more concrete things with your talk about voting for a racist party or an non-racist party, and please do remeber I am not advocating voting for either. I think that you are divorced from reality. All of the main bourgoise parties are racist. That means that if you vote for a non-racist party, you are voting for somebody who won't get in, which won't have any 'better' results at all.



Yes the y might be different but they both lauch attacks on the working class albit in different ways. Which party was it that implemented the 5% ceiling in 1979? Which party was it that sent the troops into Northern Ireland? I could go on, but I think that the point is made.



Well if it 'is nicer', we should just throw all of the political arguments out of the window. Of course, we know that the BNP is not going to end up running your area at all. It is just another example of the scaremongering that goes on about the BNP.



And the alternative is another bourgoies party winning and 'more money, publicity...' for them, and I thought that we were in agreement earlier that the Labour Party is more dangerous than the BNP.



But surely what you should be discussing with people is not how to waste ten minutes, but the actual nature of the electoral system, and how it can't bring any form of (real) change. Putting their hopes in an organisation like No2EU will not in anyway defend workers. By arguing for a vote for them, you play a part, however small, in that mystification.



Firstly I don't think that any of these people are revolutionaries. They are social-democrats. Secondly, they are not going to get a good result. Finally, I really hate the sort of nationalism calling for national independence which comes out of the left.

One thing that always seems a little ironic to me in this sort of discussions is why they always seem to end up with left communists defending anarchist principles from anarchists.

Devrim

Devrim the main issue for me is that essentially I agree with you. But its just that I know alot of people are going to vote, they are disillusioned with Labour, they naturally hate the Tories, don't think much of the LibDems and despise the BNP. I am simply suggesting to these people that No"EU would be the best group to vote for. I'm trying equally as hard in my words and actions to get them to drop this facade of electoral politics.

I suppose it essentially does boil down to, if I felt my vote could prevent the BNP getting into power, I'd cast it, if only in a 'protest' vote for a smaller, more left wing party which doesn't stand a chance anyway. I'd simply want to decrease the BNPs share of the vote without supporting one of the big three parties.

[Holden Caulfield]

Devrim the main issue for me is that essentially I agree with you. But its just that I know alot of people are going to vote, they are disillusioned with Labour, they naturally hate the Tories, don't think much of the LibDems and despise the BNP. I am simply suggesting to these people that No"EU would be the best group to vote for. I'm trying equally as hard in my words and actions to get them to drop this facade of electoral politics.

I suppose it essentially does boil down to, if I felt my vote could prevent the BNP getting into power, I'd cast it, if only in a 'protest' vote for a smaller, more left wing party which doesn't stand a chance anyway. I'd simply want to decrease the BNPs share of the vote without supporting one of the big three parties.

I think what you are leaning towards (but perhaps not phrasing in the best way) is the idea that the BNP gaining positions of power gives them acess to more money, prestige, and therefore increases their membership, support, and power.

You are voting to stop the BNP from growing as a party, because we know that any gains they have will come at the expense of working class unity and will hamper the class struggle, not to stop them from 'taking power'. As Devrim will (perhaps rightly) say that at this moment in time, and under these conditions, the BNP are not going to assume significant state power is wrong.

As has been stated to vote Labour to 'keep out' the BNP is be tricked into defending the capitalist state. But to vote no2eu is a progressive step in building class consciousness, laying foundations for the class struggle, sending a message of intent and combatting fascism.

[Killfacer]

But to vote no2eu is a progressive step in building class consciousness, laying foundations for the class struggle, sending a message of intent and combatting fascism.

It doesn't do any of that though. The only people who will vote for it are "in the know" lefties so it isn't going to lay the foundations for anything. It won't send a message of intent because they are going to get wiped the floor with. It isn't helpful in combatting fascism because of the above reasons.

[Holden Caulfield]

http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/6505/getattachmentq.th.jpg (http://img42.imageshack.us/my.php?image=getattachmentq.jpg)

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/7497/getattachment1.th.jpg (http://img199.imageshack.us/my.php?image=getattachment1.jpg)

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/5661/getattachment3.th.jpg (http://img268.imageshack.us/my.php?image=getattachment3.jpg)

[Killfacer]

your point? Anti-fa aren't running for any office are they.

[Pogue]

your point? Anti-fa aren't running for any office are they.

Thats the point mate. Being an organisation of mainly anarchists but entirely of class strugglist revolutionaries, they wont campaign for election. They put forward the ideas that fascism will be defeated by the class organising and fighting in revolutionary, worker run groups. I think Holden was simply outlining the approach Antifa would take on this issue which is the one shared by many people on the board.

[Killfacer]

Thats the point mate. Being an organisation of mainly anarchists but entirely of class strugglist revolutionaries, they wont campaign for election. They put forward the ideas that fascism will be defeated by the class organising and fighting in revolutionary, worker run groups. I think Holden was simply outlining the approach Antifa would take on this issue which is the one shared by many people on the board.

That's definatly going to stop the BNP. Not. The problem a lot of people will have with what anti-fa are saying/doing is that instead of offering soloutions they're just calling another side fascists.

Anyway, my criticism was of no2eu not anti-fa.

[Pogue]

That's definatly going to stop the BNP. Not. The problem a lot of people will have with what anti-fa are saying/doing is that instead of offering soloutions they're just calling another side fascists.

Anyway, my criticism was of no2eu not anti-fa.

You mean you don't think class based organisation on evolutionary class strugglist lines will defeat fascism? but then you don't think contesting them in elections will either? How do you propose we do it then? I think you misunderstand the role Antifa seek to play and what they propose as the solution to fascism.

[Killfacer]

You mean you don't think class based organisation on evolutionary class strugglist lines will defeat fascism? but then you don't think contesting them in elections will either? How do you propose we do it then? I think you misunderstand the role Antifa seek to play and what they propose as the solution to fascism.

Anti-fa have no ways of stopping the BNP. No2eu are campaigning on bizzare issues no one cares about. That's all i'm saying/

[Pogue]

Anti-fa have no ways of stopping the BNP. No2eu are campaigning on bizzare issues no one cares about. That's all i'm saying/

Antifa don't seek to be the sole group who alone will vanquish the BNP. They are designed to be militant opposition to fascism. They would advocate people organising as a class against fascism the same way they do against capitalism - in class strugglist groups such as revolutionary unions, residence associations, etc. No2Eu would represent the electoral opposition to the BNP, fomred specifically for the EU elections. So of course they'd focus on EU based issues. Clues in the name.

[Killfacer]

Antifa don't seek to be the sole group who alone will vanquish the BNP. They are designed to be militant opposition to fascism. They would advocate people organising as a class against fascism the same way they do against capitalism - in class strugglist groups such as revolutionary unions, residence associations, etc. No2Eu would represent the electoral opposition to the BNP, fomred specifically for the EU elections. So of course they'd focus on EU based issues. Clues in the name.

Yawn i had this conversation with Holden. Do you really think it's a good idea for no2eu just to concentrate on that? Because it seems fucking moronic to me. No other party in the country is mainly focused on the EU. Why are no2eu banging on about stuff nobody cares about? There are many more issues people care about alot more, even if they aren't directly connected to the EU.

I don't have a problem with anti-fa, they do a good job. I just think that they have no way of effecting the BNP. Once the BNP crawled out of their bomber jackets and into suits they gained some kevlar against anti-fa calling them nazis.

[Pogue]

Yawn i had this conversation with Holden. Do you really think it's a good idea for no2eu just to concentrate on that? Because it seems fucking moronic to me. No other party in the country is mainly focused on the EU. Why are no2eu banging on about stuff nobody cares about?

I don't have a problem with anti-fa, they do a good job. I just think that they have no way of effecting the BNP. Once the BNP crawled out of their bomber jackets and into suits they gained some kevlar against anti-fa calling them nazis.

No2Eu are banging on about the EU because they are an electoral coalition against the EU. They are made up of a number of people and parties who bang on about all manner of things, not just the EU. You don't seem to realise this.

Antifa are not a group for standing around screaming 'Nazis' at the BNP. They are simply militants who want to combat fascism militantly. As I said it is revolutionary/anarchist in nature and so no doubt its members are involved in other things too.

So how do you propose we fight the BNP?

[Killfacer]

No2Eu are banging on about the EU because they are an electoral coalition against the EU. They are made up of a number of people and parties who bang on about all manner of things, not just the EU. You don't seem to realise this.

Antifa are not a group for standing around screaming 'Nazis' at the BNP. They are simply militants who want to combat fascism militantly. As I said it is revolutionary/anarchist in nature and so no doubt its members are involved in other things too.

So how do you propose we fight the BNP?

Have you listened to anything i said?

no2eu are idiots because clearly, as their name suggests, they are concentrating far to much on the EU.

I am aware of what anti-fa are, all i said is that they can't do anything about the BNP. I did this in reply to Holden posting some pictures of some anti-fa flyers.

Fighting the BNP is a tough one and i'm not sure where to begin. I will give it some thought.

[Pogue]

Have you listened to anything i said?

no2eu are idiots because clearly, as their name suggests, they are concentrating far to much on the EU.

As I said, No2EU are an electoral coalition of various left wing groups aiming to run a left wing anti-EU platform for the EU elections only. They don't intend to exist outside of this.

Each of the groups within it will disagree on issues, but they all share this shared platform on the EU, hence the coalition for the EU elections. The reaosn they don't talk about other things is because they all already do this differently in their own psrties outside of the coalition.


I am aware of what anti-fa are, all i said is that they can't do anything about the BNP. I did this in reply to Holden posting some pictures of some anti-fa flyers.

They can clearly do something against the BNP. Oncemore I don't think you know what they are because you don't seem to understand most members are involved in other activities which they think will combat the BNP and capitalism, but Antifa is the epxlicitly anti-fascist wing of their combined politics.

[Marion]

You are voting to stop the BNP from growing as a party, because we know that any gains they have will come at the expense of working class unity and will hamper the class struggle, not to stop them from 'taking power'. As Devrim will (perhaps rightly) say that at this moment in time, and under these conditions, the BNP are not going to assume significant state power is wrong.

I think the key point is more that if if you're arguing for voting against the BNP because it will "come at the expense of working class unity and will hamper the class struggle" you could make exactly the same argument against voting for any of the alternative parties.

[Zurdito]

May I ask, how does NO2EUYesToDemocracy intend to defend/increase democracy? The RMT bureaucrats and CPB are not exactly famous for their love of democracy, and most accounts I have read of the process of forming the coalition say it was not at all democratic - for example, did RMT members get to vote on their subs being spent on defending the British state's - bourgeoisie's - "sovereignity" or not? And are they saying that if Britain pulled out of the EU the country would be more dmeocratic? when Britain ahs the worst labour laws in Europe and in many cases defies EU regulations which in some small way limit the British bourgeoisie's ability to exploit and deny union rights?

And do they have to keep using the term "social dumping"? As if immigrants are literally trash?

also is it true that a leading SP member has been writing on facebook groups "British jobs for british workers, Italian jobs for Italian workers"? actually that last one doesn't need to be answered, the apparently well known member in question already defended doing that here:
http://communiststudents.org.uk/2009/05/no-2-eu-looks-to-far-right-for-votes/

[Pogue]

That is worrying, but its only one guy.

[Zurdito]

That is worrying, but its only one guy.

yes but nothing has happened about it, and he defends the position openly, being backed up by all his supporters on that thread. It's also true that No2EU opposes "social dumping", i.e., is for limits on foreign workers, so his line is consistent with the campaign.

[Patchd]

Why call him a twat? He's expressing a valid opinion. If the choice for me was not voting, or voting for a left wing group which shares alot of views with me, such as No2EU, I'd definatly vote No2EU.

You'd be better off voting Green party then, at least they don't have a policy on restricting travel in the EU, and their vote would also count more as lets face it, they're gonna get more votes than NO2EU whatever their supporters do. I think they also have a Trotskyist wing lol.

[Devrim]

also is it true that a leading SP member has been writing on facebook groups "British jobs for british workers, Italian jobs for Italian workers"? actually that last one doesn't need to be answered, the apparently well known member in question already defended doing that here:
http://communiststudents.org.uk/2009/05/no-2-eu-looks-to-far-right-for-votes/

I think that we need this text up in full:


No 2 EU looks to Far Right for Votes


Facebook (FB) is a peculiar world occupied by office workers, students and the unemployed. On it you can follow the latest intrigues of this or that friend, stalk the weirdest sectarians and at times find out somebody’s politics by where they post. The RMT, the Stalinist CPB and the “Trotskyist” Socialist Party of England and Wales (SPEW) have gone to lengths to try and convince us that the No2EU campaign is not right wing, not anti immigrant and certainly is not nationalist! FB exposes these claims as nothing but lies.
Leading Cardiff SPEW member X has been doing his best to promote No2EU on FB, nothing wrong in that. The problem is, he is promoting them on far right, nationalist, racist and BNP controlled pages. Pages such as ‘British jobs for British people’, ‘get foreign labour out of Britain’, ‘UK jobs for UK workers’. The demands of these groups centre around getting foreigners out of the UK. For those who think we are making this up, have a look here (http://communiststudents.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/causes-on-facebook-andrew.pdf) (http://communiststudents.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/causes-on-facebook-_-andrew.pdf)at a copy of some of the pages he has been posting on. On these pages apart from posting links he posted this message:
‘British jobs for british workers and Italian jobs for Italian workers. The only reason the EU has such a large migrant workforce is to drive down workers wages and increase profits for the super rich. Vote no2eu on June the 4th.’
So much for a workers’ Europe then. Such slogans would find a loving home in the BNP and nationalists parties across Europe. Did he forget about internationalism?
So many of us on the revolutionary Left have been repulsed by this campaign, we have been called sectarians and all of the other usual crap internationalists get called. It is doubtful that X is the only one, and is certainly not a loose cannon, he is leading cadre. When we said that No2EU is nothing more than little England politics dressed up in trade union clothes we never expected SPEW members to campaign on nationalist, far right and BNP controlled sites and pages. SPEW members need to sit up and wake up, good socialists are being dragged into a nationalist adventure by Left bureaucrats and vile opportunists.


It is pretty disgusting nationalist stuff really.


That is worrying, but its only one guy. I really doubt this, and I also doubt that this is the worst example.

Devrim

[Killfacer]

This is what i'm talking about. no2eu are campaigning on issues no one cares about at the moment. Not only that, but they're doing it in a really appauling, nationalist way in a cheap attempt to bolster their inevitably poor peformance.

[Killfacer]

As I said, No2EU are an electoral coalition of various left wing groups aiming to run a left wing anti-EU platform for the EU elections only. They don't intend to exist outside of this.

Each of the groups within it will disagree on issues, but they all share this shared platform on the EU, hence the coalition for the EU elections. The reaosn they don't talk about other things is because they all already do this differently in their own psrties outside of the coalition.



They can clearly do something against the BNP. Oncemore I don't think you know what they are because you don't seem to understand most members are involved in other activities which they think will combat the BNP and capitalism, but Antifa is the epxlicitly anti-fascist wing of their combined politics.

Even if no2eu don't intend on existing outside thism they will fail miserably if they only campaign on the euros. It's a fucking appauling tactic and one which is doomed to fail miserably.

So these other parties from which the members of no2eu are coming from, why are they not standing the in the euros? If it's because they don't want to get involved in democracy, why are they even standing for the euros anyway?

I am well aware that most members of anti-fa are involved in other groups. However, i would suggest that a large percentage of their members concentrate mainly on anti-fa. The idea that they can stop the BNP is laughable and i'm yet to see any real attempt that could put a spanner if the proverbial works. The problem is, people seem to be caught in two minds. They want to stop the BNP, but they don't want to compromise their own beliefs by taking part in democracy. It's understandably difficult but flapping around in the middle certainly isn't helpful.

[nuisance]

I am well aware that most members of anti-fa are involved in other groups. However, i would suggest that a large percentage of their members concentrate mainly on anti-fa.
Based upon?


The idea that they can stop the BNP is laughable and i'm yet to see any real attempt that could put a spanner if the proverbial works.
So, why do you believe that militant antifascist activities cannot halt the BNP, it certainly greatly hindered the NF et al previously. The suggestion that the playing field is different with the BNPs new attire is rubbish. No platform still applies. Stalls, meetings, marches and like can all be opposed militantly whether they are up for a ruck or not, infact it would be much easier if they weren't. Venues and the authorities are also less likely to put the BNP up with the threat of militant action to oppose them, just look at numerous meetings cancelled and the reluctance to have the RWB back in Derbyshire this year.
There is also the side to Antifa, which is commonly ignored by objectors to the organisation, that states that we need to provide ideas to also combat fascism because militant opposition only prevents street presence and doesn't offer alternative ideas to those that can arise in a society deviod of strong worker movement.
The point of militant antifascism is provide a safe enviroment for left ideas to be presented and to protect them in doing so. Fascism will be abolished when capitalism is.


The problem is, people seem to be caught in two minds. They want to stop the BNP, but they don't want to compromise their own beliefs by taking part in democracy. It's understandably difficult but flapping around in the middle certainly isn't helpful.
So representing the common anarchist viewpoint on electoralism is 'flapping around'?

[Zurdito]

Devrim: it was generous of you to disguise the SP members name, but remember that he posted these messages on BNP controlled pages, giving them a link to his profile anyway.

Also, it is worth highlighting some of the things he wrote on the thread linked to (maybe this should be split now?):



May 10th, 2009 at 9:32 pm (http://communiststudents.org.uk/2009/05/no-2-eu-looks-to-far-right-for-votes/comment-page-1/#comment-3342)
Racial nationality and constitutional nationality are not the same thing Mr Brennan. If you cannot organise locally and nationally then how do you hope to organise internationally? To identify with and feel solidarity with your neighbours is a positive thing. Though I wouldn’t expect you to understand that as you spend your time snooping and backstabbing your would be comrades. If you are so against the idea of nationality then why support Palestine. Reactionary idealists like yourself will never make a difference in the real world.
“The end may justify the means as long as there is something that justifies the end .” Leon Trotsky




The majority of people; the ‘demos’ in Britain count themselves British, Welsh, Scottish, Irish, or English. We’re all waving flags. They don’t all have to be red.




The slogan British jobs for British workers may send shivers through you but that was the slogan being used. I embellished it to include Italian workers to draw parallels for people who are angry at being treated like cattle and are looking for answers, highlighting the international nature of the current crisis without preaching Marxism to the uninitiated. What slogan would you use? ‘International jobs for international workers?’



May 11th, 2009 at 12:22 am (http://communiststudents.org.uk/2009/05/no-2-eu-looks-to-far-right-for-votes/comment-page-1/#comment-3371)
It’s simple. Racial nationality is defined by ethnic, genealogical origins. Constitutional nationality is through choice. Nobody would have complained about British Italians, British Pakistanis, British Indian, Malaysian, Afghan, Iraqi, French, German, Polish etc workers applying for and getting jobs in the Lindsey oil refinery. What was objectionable was the fact that a whole crew of workers were shipped in who were not British nationals and not asylum seekers.

[Killfacer]

Based upon?


So, why do you believe that militant antifascist activities cannot halt the BNP, it certainly greatly hindered the NF et al previously. The suggestion that the playing field is different with the BNPs new attire is rubbish. No platform still applies. Stalls, meetings, marches and like can all be opposed militantly whether they are up for a ruck or not, infact it would be much easier if they weren't. Venues and the authorities are also less likely to put the BNP up with the threat of militant action to oppose them, just look at numerous meetings cancelled and the reluctance to have the RWB back in Derbyshire this year.
There is also the side to Antifa, which is commonly ignored by objectors to the organisation, that states that we need to provide ideas to also combat fascism because militant opposition only prevents street presence and doesn't offer alternative ideas to those that can arise in a society deviod of strong worker movement.
The point of militant antifascism is provide a safe enviroment for left ideas to be presented and to protect them in doing so. Fascism will be abolished when capitalism is.


So representing the common anarchist viewpoint on electoralism is 'flapping around'?

Has stopping RWB really effected the BNP? Because it seems to me that despite that they are going to to record breakingly well. I guess this means that no, it hasn't effected them.

"no platformism" may be good and i do agree with it. However, when some of the jo public see it i question what their reaction will be. I am sure it will in many cases be positive, but what about those already voting BNP? I think they will simply think that you're just a bunch of fringe lunatics attacking a legitimate party and it will simply reinforce their beleif that voting BNP is a good thing.

If no2eu are represnting anarchist ideas then why are they not made up completely of anarchists?

[nuisance]

Has stopping RWB really effected the BNP? Because it seems to me that despite that they are going to to record breakingly well. I guess this means that no, it hasn't effected them.
Opposing the RWB wasn't supposed to be a devastingly blow to the BNP, how could it be? The sole intent was to show that there are people who will actively oppose the congreation of people to celebrate fascism. You seem to have mistaken the reasoning by the action. However it does show that it prevents the BNP from organising big events as easily as they would like, aswell as the down turn in its attendance.


"no platformism" may be good and i do agree with it. However, when some of the jo public see it i question what their reaction will be. I am sure it will in many cases be positive, but what about those already voting BNP? I think they will simply think that you're just a bunch of fringe lunatics attacking a legitimate party and it will simply reinforce their beleif that voting BNP is a good thing.
Keeping fascists off the streets isn't necessarily designed to win people over, that is for the left to seize the initative and take advantage of the circumstances provided. Plus, I doubt 'Jo Public' would care to much if some strange parties stall got knocked over. Places where the BNP are gaining success should then be flyered or even counter flyered while maintaining a no platform policy. If done efficiently this shall stop fascism from growing. Oh can a party grow if they cannt organise publically?


If no2eu are represnting anarchist ideas then why are they not made up completely of anarchists?
I assume you mean Antifa, and not No2EU? Read the founding statement, it distinctly objects to participating in the electoral process or atleast advocating it as the organisation.

[Killfacer]

I agree with everything you have said, it's just that you haven't really disagreed with anything i have said. I mean no2eu. This isn't a ditrabite against anti-fa who do an excellent job.

[Melbourne Lefty]

So, why do you believe that militant antifascist activities cannot halt the BNP, it certainly greatly hindered the NF et al previously.


someone trying to fight the last war over are they?:rolleyes:

[Devrim]

Devrim: it was generous of you to disguise the SP members name, but remember that he posted these messages on BNP controlled pages, giving them a link to his profile anyway.

Yes, I don't think it is my job to further spread his name around the internet. If he is stupid enough to do it, it isn't really my problem.

Those who support No2EU have gone rather quite.

Devrim

[teenagebricks]

This whole stopping the BNP thing is going really badly, today I read an article on Times Online about how you shouldn't vote for them because Nick Griffin's ringtone is Sweet Home Alabama. There were a dozen or so comments, pretty much all of them in support of the fash. It's just pointless gossip and I dare say propaganda, I'd expect stuff like that in Heat magazine, not on the website of our newspaper of record. So when's the revolution coming? Because if it doesn't happen soon we're all fucked.

[Zurdito]

Yes, I don't think it is my job to further spread his name around the internet. If he is stupid enough to do it, it isn't really my problem

I agree that the CPGB should not have done this. Though his complaints on their thread seem pretty opportunistic in light of where he posted.

[nuisance]

someone trying to fight the last war over are they?:rolleyes:
Care to expand?
All that was said is militant activism has been shown and proven to work.
:mad:

[Melbourne Lefty]

Care to expand?
All that was said is militant activism has been shown and proven to work.
:mad:

Simply that it shouldnt be assumed that the same tactics that worked against the NF may not work to the same extent or in the same way if used against the modern BNP.

Personally I feel that militant activism has its place, but justifying activity by saying "It worked last time" is a recipe for disaster.



today I read an article on Times Online about how you shouldn't vote for them because Nick Griffin's ringtone is Sweet Home Alabama. There were a dozen or so comments, pretty much all of them in support of the fash.


The BNP has a large online activist base, they usually manage to flood most comments sections about them.

That said when people see 100 or so comments in the Daily Mail only half would have had a chance of being actual BNP members.

There is a lot of anger out there, and its flowing to UKIP and to a lesser extent to the BNP.

The Media is boosting UKIP as hard as they can. Which probably says something about internal party polling. Its a toss up, will they be able to redirect far right/racist votes to the relatively harmless UKIP?

[nuisance]

Simply that it shouldnt be assumed that the same tactics that worked against the NF may not work to the same extent or in the same way if used against the modern BNP.

Personally I feel that militant activism has its place, but justifying activity by saying "It worked last time" is a recipe for disaster.
If you fully read the post then you'd have realised that there were points made about why this method would still be effective in combatting the modern incarnation of the BNP, and not just the fact that it has worked previously.

[SmashTheFash123]

I understand your situation. Both my dad and brother vote BNP. I've seen my Dad twice and brother once since I've been at uni and I'm in my final weeks of it now. We just disagree on too many things to have a relationship anymore

Yeah, I've never really got on that well with him anyway. Unfortunately I still have another few months of putting up with the Daily Mail reading/closet racist ****. Well, I take that back- it's not so closeted anymore since he announced his voting intentions. The worst part is I spoke to my mum, and she was like "oh well it's his choice who to vote for, you shouldn't interfere". I bet they'd be saying the same thing in 1930's Germany too. Fucking hell it makes me mad.


That sucks, but it may just be a case of ignorance, I'm not going to call your Dad a Nazi because he probably isn't. I had exactly the same problem with my Mum, so I printed off a copy of the BNP manifesto and took it to her house, she quickly decided she was going to vote for someone else because she's strongly opposed to capital and corporal punishment, plus she didn't actually realise they were racist, ignorance is the main problem. She'll probably end up voting Tory but that's completely fine by me considering she was going to vote for the BNP before. Try to show your Dad what the BNP really stand for, show him some YouTube videos or something, if you can persuade him to vote to vote for someone else instead, that's still a small victory, even if it is UKIP that would still be better.


I tried printing out the more offensive parts of their manifesto yesterday (stuff about immigration and dealth penalty etc) and showed it him, but tbh it hasn't changed his mind at all. Says no more immigration would be good and doesn't really have an opinion on capital punishment either way. To be fair I didn't think it would change his mind, as he's too steeped in Daily Mail shite and has bought into their notion that if immigrants left the UK everything would be just great. I don't know where the ****s dream this idea up from. Even if every immigrant left tommorow, they'd still have shitty politicians, shitty bosses paying low wages, and a massive divide between rich and poor. :confused:


Im sure that he saw the light after your reasoned and well thought out argument.

I know many of us ARE teenagers but do we always need to sound like teenagers?

Well there's no point in debating someone who's a liar/someone who repeats the viewpoints of liars such as the Daily Mail. Example- I say to him that capitalism is to blame for this countries problems, and indeed those of thw wider world. The response? It's immigrants to blame! :confused: I mean how the fuck can you argue against a viewpoint like that, that is not based on any reality at all? How am I supposed to convince him that low wages are caused by capitalism, when he's saying that low wages are caused by immigrants undercutting wages? :confused:

In addition to the racism though, he's a right reactionary fuck. Against abortion, thinks women should be housewives, wants police to "get tough on anti-social behaviour" etc. He's a lost cause quite frankly, and I'll be just glad to get out of this house and hopefully not see him so much.

[teenagebricks]

Maybe you should just sit down and have a civil conversation, I mean maybe you misunderstand him, I mean I don't like the idea of abortion but I'm still very much pro choice, and I think it's fine for women to be housewives if they choose to be but I still understand that they shouldn't have to be housewives because they have as much right to do what they want with their lives as anyone else, maybe it's the same case with your Dad? Or am I being a little too optimistic? You could always disown him, that would probably make him realise how strongly you feel about the issue and might make him take what you are saying a bit more seriously.

[communard resolution]

And do they have to keep using the term "social dumping"? As if immigrants are literally trash?

also is it true that a leading SP member has been writing on facebook groups "British jobs for british workers, Italian jobs for Italian workers"? actually that last one doesn't need to be answered, the apparently well known member in question already defended doing that here:
http://communiststudents.org.uk/2009/05/no-2-eu-looks-to-far-right-for-votes/

This party is fucking scary, and I hope no one votes for them. It saddens me to read this.

I can see how sometimes, in a moment of desperation, one may flirt with the thought of voting for the most left-wing reformist party on offer - not to defeat capitalism, obviously, but for a humble handful of public spending issues that might make daily life a little more bearable.

I will not vote because I find all the parties that stand for elections equally reprehensible, in different ways. I agree with Devrim that Labour are a bigger threat to us all than the BNP. However I have one question to those who reject voting out of principle: aside from your belief than the name of the party makes no difference, do you actually see a harm in voting?

Let's say, for instance, if a Eurocommunist party stood for elections and I voted for them, perhaps hoping they would cut down on the amount of police currently harrassing people in the streets/killing people at demonstrations. Do you think I might as well throw my ballot in a rubbish bin, or do you think I'm actually being counterproductive to boot? Where do you see the harm in my ticking a box?


Edit - just had a quick look at the No2EU website. My first impression is that they peddle populism of the worst kind: very emotion-stirring, and - aside from a couple of socialist buzzwords - basically playing at fear of all that comes 'from abroad' not unlike the Daily Mail

Edit 2 - In London, the Socialist Party of Great Britain participate in the EU elections. Anything interesting you can tell me about them? At first glance, they seem to come out of a De Leonist tradition.

Edit 3 - I had a look at their website HERE (http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/). Quite honestly, they seem like a pretty cool group - a lot of positions that I find myself in agreement with, and some others that are 'interesting'.

I'm not sure about their strategy of wanting to bring about the revolution through electoral successes (while at the same time being anti-reformist?). But seeing as no one explained how a ticked box is detrimental to our cause (rather than just pointless), I virtually see no reason why one shouldn't give these guys a shot. Can't hurt - can it?

[Melbourne Lefty]

Well there's no point in debating someone who's a liar/someone who repeats the viewpoints of liars such as the Daily Mail.


Daily mail has a fairly large readership, although declining like most newspapers these days.

You really want to write off all those people?


Example- I say to him that capitalism is to blame for this countries problems, and indeed those of thw wider world. The response? It's immigrants to blame!

So he yells immigrants and you yell capitalism.

I think I can see why you are not getting anywhere with him.


I mean how the fuck can you argue against a viewpoint like that, that is not based on any reality at all? How am I supposed to convince him that low wages are caused by capitalism, when he's saying that low wages are caused by immigrants undercutting wages?

In order to convince someone to your position you have to understand their point of view.

I suggest you read the daily mail opinion pages and try to understand WHY these columnists think this way.

Try to understand the mentality. Try to imagine [as a large % of people do] that ethnicity is more important an identity than class.

When you take on an identity you become "Part of something" and as a part of it you feel the need to protect its interests.

It is not in the interest of the working class to be divided on the matter of race.

It is not in the interests of an ethnic group to allow another ethnic groups to move into your territory [tribal impulse].

As revolutionary leftists we see that the first identity is a wholesome and fullfilling one, which if taken up by the working class as their primary identity will lead to greater justice and a more equal world. where the second does not provide these things.

Without understanding this you cannot convince a tribal person to take up working class identity, this is why unionism has been so useful, it shows the solid benefits of maintaining a working class identity.

[SmashTheFash123]

Daily mail has a fairly large readership, although declining like most newspapers these days.

You really want to write off all those people?

Well like it or not there's always going to be some people who'll never be converted. I notice it on a low-level with my friends at college. Quite a few are racists in the sense that they say stuff like "Africa doesn't do anything for the world, we should stop sending them money". I say they never had a chance to as they were dominated by colonial overlords. They agree- but then continue to say racist crap later on! They don't hate blacks or anything like that, but yet again, people get corrupted by media, to the extent that even those who agree that capitalism is a problem will still parrot the crap they're fed in the media.

I'd shut down the Daily Mail, and give the borderline-xenophobes, homophobes and sexists 3 months to change their ways. If they don't, fuck em, put a bullet in their heads for all I care.


So he yells immigrants and you yell capitalism.

I think I can see why you are not getting anywhere with him.

Yeah cos he's a clueless ****. "Hey, this country sucks. Must be the fault of those people with brown faces". :confused: That's the thought process Daily Mail reading morons have.


In order to convince someone to your position you have to understand their point of view.

I suggest you read the daily mail opinion pages and try to understand WHY these columnists think this way.

Try to understand the mentality. Try to imagine [as a large % of people do] that ethnicity is more important an identity than class.

When you take on an identity you become "Part of something" and as a part of it you feel the need to protect its interests.

It is not in the interest of the working class to be divided on the matter of race.

It is not in the interests of an ethnic group to allow another ethnic groups to move into your territory [tribal impulse].


They write what they do either because they're racists, or pander to the views of racists, it's that simple. How can one think skin colour is more important than class? Class has material consequences in the real world, with those of an upper class having higher living standards. Skin colour doesn't mean a fucking thing when it comes to getting a wage, paying the bills, and enjoying your life.

Line all the people who print this shite up against the wall and shoot them I say.

[communard resolution]

I'd shut down the Daily Mail, and give the borderline-xenophobes, homophobes and sexists 3 months to change their ways. If they don't, fuck em, put a bullet in their heads for all I care.

Sounds like an offer they couldn't refuse.

[communard resolution]

Found an interesting article and thought I'd post it FYI:

No2EU and their right-wing bedfellows (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/apr2009/rmt2-a07.shtml)

[Melbourne Lefty]

How can one think skin colour is more important than class?


I dont. But many people do.

Many people see ethnic differences as being more than "Skin colour". Unless we understand the tribal mentality which makes them see things in this way we dont know how to reverse the trend.

[brigadista]

not sure where to post this but i got an email today regarding the anti BNP billboard campaign which linked to this site

I dont know much about it so i am posting it for your information - apologies if you already know about it


http://action.hopenothate.org.uk/page/speakout/integrity

[Melbourne Lefty]

not sure where to post this but i got an email today regarding the anti BNP billboard campaign which linked to this site


This is a great example of an online campaign, even if it is organised by HnH.

edit...

Actually it looks like the HnH people are trying to collect emails with these campaigns, perhaps contacting the billboard people directly and not following their link would be better.

[SmashTheFash123]

I dont. But many people do.

Many people see ethnic differences as being more than "Skin colour". Unless we understand the tribal mentality which makes them see things in this way we dont know how to reverse the trend.

After the revolution all these fuckers with "tribalist mentality" should be exterminated. They've held back humanity for the past 200 years with racist bullshit, fucked up large sections of the world and to some extent still make peoples lives miserable. They'll have to be dealt with post-revolution.

[Holden Caulfield]

After the revolution all these fuckers with "tribalist mentality" should be exterminated. They've held back humanity for the past 200 years with racist bullshit, fucked up large sections of the world and to some extent still make peoples lives miserable. They'll have to be dealt with post-revolution.

If there is a revolution one would assume large sections of the, previously racist, working class would have developed class consciousness and have realised the error of such racist views. In this case we won't have to deal with them.

Even those who are still racist will be part of the socialist system, if this, along with community cohesion and greater democratic roles in society cannot change their racist views; they can be frozen out by the community. If necessary the local police can step in but in most cases this will not be necessary at all.

I do not want to live under a authoritarian state where large sections of society are exterminated. Nazis are ****s, they should be treat in such away but if they sincerely come over to our side or act as normal members of society I would not punish them for past misdeeds (unless some past crime warrented it).

[Melbourne Lefty]

After the revolution all these fuckers with "tribalist mentality" should be exterminated. They've held back humanity for the past 200 years with racist bullshit, fucked up large sections of the world and to some extent still make peoples lives miserable. They'll have to be dealt with post-revolution.

HC, THIS trolling bastard calls me fash and you lend support? He just called for the extermination OF HIS FATHER.

If this little 18 post Motherfucker is not a fash troll trying to make this forum look bad I will eat my fucking hat.

[Holden Caulfield]

^ Everybody I like gets one 'on request banning' you just used yours up Melbourne, you don't get a new one until the next financial year

[Melbourne Lefty]

Everybody I like gets one 'on request banning' you just used yours up Melbourne, you don't get a new one until the next financial year


sorry for going all fruitcakey on ya before HC :blushing:.