White African immigrant suspended from medical school over african-american identity

[Yazman]

http://www.philly.com/philly/wires/ap/news/state/new_jersey/20090511_ap_exstudentsaysnjmedicalschooldiscrimina ted.html


Ex-student says NJ medical school discriminated

GEOFF MULVIHILL
The Associated Press

MOUNT LAUREL, N.J. - A former student claims in a lawsuit that the University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey discriminated against him for the way he described his background in classroom discussions on cultural diversity.

Paulo Serodio said that in 2006, he told a professor and classmates that he was "white, African, American," which he says accurately reflects the fact that he was born in Mozambique but later became a U.S. citizen.

He said some classmates and staff members at New Jersey Medical School found it offensive that a Caucasian man would call himself "African-American" and that the fallout led to harassment and eventually his suspension from the school.

This is quite ridiculous to me. That a Mozambican man would be denied his own ethnic or cultural identity seems awfully short sighted on the part of Americans. Is "african-american" synonymous with black people in the US? What about indigenous africans who are not "black" (like some of those who are indigenous in northern africa). Are they too not allowed to call themselves African-american? From my experiences South African and Batswana immigrants in countries are generally referred to as african regardless of their skin colour.

What does RL think of this situation? I think its interesting that uniquely american demonyms seem to supercede cultural and ethnic identities. How do they expect these people to self identify? Further more, what about those who have dark skin but aren't african in origin? Isn't it wrong for "african-american" to be synonymous with "black people" ?

[counterblast]

Most radical Black theorists (after 1980) reject the term "African-American" anyway; because it is a geographically exclusionary term which invalidates the existence and oppression of Black persons who are not from Africa.

Black or New Afrikan are the preferred terms.


EDIT:
Its also difficult to comment on this article; because it is unclear whether this person was actually African or a transplant with European ancestry. If they were the latter; it is understandable how claiming to be "African", could be offensive and racially insensitive.

[manic expression]

Understood counterblast, but we're not talking about anything radical here. As far as we are concerned, that student IS African; his use of the term "African-American" is far more accurate than how it is usually used, anyway. The problem is that most Americans do associate Africa with black people, and can't get their head around the fact that tons of "white" people consider themselves African just as tons of "white" people consider themselves American (and that's not even bringing North African peoples into the equation).

[Revy]

In the US, "African-American" refers to someone with black African ancestry. This is because it is used as an ethnic term not a geographic one.

he could have caused less controversy by just saying he was from Mozambique.

[counterblast]

Understood counterblast, but we're not talking about anything radical here. As far as we are concerned, that student IS African; his use of the term "African-American" is far more accurate than how it is usually used, anyway. The problem is that most Americans do associate Africa with black people, and can't get their head around the fact that tons of "white" people consider themselves African just as tons of "white" people consider themselves American (and that's not even bringing North African peoples into the equation).

But as I brought up in my edit; its important to debate whether calling Europeans who colonized Africa and their ancestors "African" is legitimate.

If this person is North African or part of a white community indigenous to Africa (if such a thing exists?); then that is certainly one thing; but to call yourself African (or American, for that matter) if your birth in that continent is the result of racial genocide or colonization, it stands to question whether or not it is racially insensitive (or just plain racist) to call yourself "African".



EDIT: All that said, I think suspending him over that is beyond extreme.

[Pogue]

On those forms i usually tick 'prefer not to say' where its an option just cos i cant be fucked with labelling myself based upon where i was born

i feel tempted to request a write in - ethnicity - 'workers have no country'

[manic expression]

If he can't call himself African, then I can't call myself American. Simple as that.

Almost no one is "indigenous" to anything. Indo-European peoples moved into Europe relatively recently, the Zulu and Xhosa moved into what is now South Africa only some centuries ago, Turkish people have only been in Anatolia once Byzantine power there fell; all of history is comprised of population movements, assimilation both ways and so on and so forth. Historically, ethnic and geographical identities are far more fluid than we would usually think.

Eco-Marxist brings up a good point that "African-American" has a specific ethnic meaning in the US, which is likely the cause of this.

[Sean]

Whats funny about this is that this guy was essentially kicked out by the same logic employed by the BNP to say that non whites can never be british.

[counterblast]

If he can't call himself African, then I can't call myself American. Simple as that.

Almost no one is "indigenous" to anything. Indo-European peoples moved into Europe relatively recently, the Zulu and Xhosa moved into what is now South Africa only some centuries ago, Turkish people have only been in Anatolia once Byzantine power there fell; all of history is comprised of population movements, assimilation both ways and so on and so forth. Historically, ethnic and geographical identities are far more fluid than we would usually think.

Eco-Marxist brings up a good point that "African-American" has a specific ethnic meaning in the US, which is likely the cause of this.

But clearly the modern colonization of America or Africa has had a more profound effect on modern society than when the Byzantines invaded Northern Africa in ancient times. The former two literally shifted the racial power dynamic which effects most Black and American Indian peoples to this day; while the former has almost no significance to today's political landscape.

It seems almost like you're suggesting that since colonization has always taken place and since migration/population shift have always existed, that reaction to colonization by people of color is completely unfounded and that colonization can somehow be justified or forgotten.

[counterblast]

Whats funny about this is that this guy was essentially kicked out by the same logic employed by the BNP to say that non whites can never be british.


Yes, clearly it is the same thing. :rolleyes:

[Revy]

He is African, but not African-American. African is geographic, like European. "African American" is basically synonymous with "black" in the US.

Teresa Heinz Kerry came to mind, I think there was some controversy when she called herself African-American because she is also white and from Mozambique.

I don't think there should be any problem with whites who are from Africa calling themselves African. But "African American" essentially means black and it's only expected that many people would be offended by a white person calling themselves that.

[Sean]

Yes, clearly it is the same thing. :rolleyes:
It is!!!! Listen to Nick Griffin here (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00kks2f/The_Daily_Politics_11_05_2009/) and tell me that that isnt the same logic.

[manic expression]

But clearly the modern colonization of America or Africa has had a more profound effect on modern society than when the Byzantines invaded Northern Africa in ancient times. The former two literally shifted the racial power dynamic which effects most Black and American Indian peoples to this day; while the former has almost no significance to today's political landscape.

It seems almost like you're suggesting that since colonization has always taken place and since migration/population shift have always existed, that reaction to colonization by people of color is completely unfounded and that colonization can somehow be justified or forgotten.

Well, whether or not it's modern colonization is tangential. If we fast-forward 200 years and whites are still in Mozambique, is it now a moot point simply because more time has passed?

At the time, the Roman conquests of most of Europe and North Africa had an unbelievable impact on the cultures and economies of those regions (the same can be said for Arab conquests or any other population movement). As for the modern day, Greeks and Turks in the 20th Century (and arguably today) were dealing with the effects of Alp Arslan's invasion of Anatolia in 1071. The conflicts between Zulu, Xhosa and Afrikaner are definitely alive today, and those started more than a century ago, too. The effects of just about every population shift are still with us.

Basically, the identity of an individual based on geography is no different than it was 1,000 years ago. All identities, English (Anglo-Saxon, Viking, Norman...), French (Gallic, Roman, Frank...), Sicilian (just about everybody in the Mediterranean world) and otherwise, have been formed in no small part by colonization, conquest and the like. A white's claim to be from Mozambique or South Africa or Angola is much the same.

And on edit, once you get down to it, it hardly matters anyway: the guy was (apparently) born in Africa, he grew up in Africa and he views Africa as his home. How can we question such a human thing?

And yeah, I do agree with Eco-Marxist in that the use of "African-American" conflicts with how Americans use the term. That doesn't mean the school handled this the right way, however.

[Mujer Libre]

Most radical Black theorists (after 1980) reject the term "African-American" anyway; because it is a geographically exclusionary term which invalidates the existence and oppression of Black persons who are not from Africa.

Black or New Afrikan are the preferred terms.


EDIT:
Its also difficult to comment on this article; because it is unclear whether this person was actually African or a transplant with European ancestry. If they were the latter; it is understandable how claiming to be "African", could be offensive and racially insensitive.
I agree that Black is the politically better term.

But I disagree that a white African referring to themselves as African is racist or insensitive.

I'm not of African descent and grew up in South Africa, and I think to look at things that way is so counterproductive for the country moving forward at all. The fact of the matter is, my family has been in Africa for 150 years, and most white Africans have been there even longer.

We don't have a non-African identity. Africa is home. And that is generally completely non-controversial, in South Africa at least. Acknowledging and repairing the effects of colonisation and racism are a completely different kettle of fish and will not be achieved by depriving people such as myself of our identities.

Of course, in South Africa, "African" as a term is often used to describe a person of Black ancestry. And that's fine, because it's understood that the term doesn't negate the "Africanness" of any of the other people who were born in or live in the country.

[Glenn Beck]

In the United States African-American is a euphemism for black. This person is not African-American but they are an American of African descent and thus an African American. Is this stupid? Absolutely. This is one of the reasons euphemisms suck.

[bcbm]

but they are an American of African descent

I think this would depend how "African descent" is defined.

[Glenn Beck]

I think this would depend how "African descent" is defined.

You' re right, that's a good point. My comment was loosely worded. I suppose it' s clear what I meant though.

[apathy maybe]

What I find absurd is that the current president of the US is considered "black" or "African-American" 'cause his daddy was from Africa.

He is half "white", why isn't he considered "white"? His daddy isn't the descendent of a slave (as far as I know), but rather moved to the USA.

(I do understand the fact that there is a lot of racism in the USA, and that the colour of a person's skin is what determines a lot about them (in the eyes of society), I find that just plain fucking stupid, that's all.)


Also, I basically agree with all the folks I thank so far. If a person is born and raised in Africa, and their parents and grand-parents before that, why not call them "African"? Regardless of the colour of their skin?


(As for questions about ethnicity or whatever, I just generally don't answer anything at all. Not even "prefer not to say".)

[Pogue]

If I moved to Africa and lived there for a while I'd consider myself African insofar as it mattered, just because thats where I would live.

[TC]

The issue isn't that he refered to himself as "African" but that he referred to himself as "African-American", a culturally, linguistically, historically distinct population with hundreds of years of their own history and cultural development originating in the slave trade perpetrated by white imperialists. African Americans occupy a particular disadvantaged place in US society and when a white kid who happens to be from Africa (and lets be frank almost certainly of the local ruling ex-colonial class) takes a spot in medschool reserved to help rectify the demographic injustice against African-Americans, he's participating in that injustice. Thats the result of claiming to be African American when you are in fact not.

[blackstone]

The issue isn't that he refered to himself as "African" but that he referred to himself as "African-American", a culturally, linguistically, historically distinct population with hundreds of years of their own history and cultural development originating in the slave trade perpetrated by white imperialists. African Americans occupy a particular disadvantaged place in US society and when a white kid who happens to be from Africa (and lets be frank almost certainly of the local ruling ex-colonial class) takes a spot in medschool reserved to help rectify the demographic injustice against African-Americans, he's participating in that injustice. Thats the result of claiming to be African American when you are in fact not.

Exactly my point. There is way more to this article than meets the eye. As TC stated, African Americans are at huge disadvantagre in US society, and to somewhat rectify this situation(can be argued the success) there are scholarships and quotas in insitutions of higher learning reserved for African Americans. Now what this young man did was take advantage of semantics to secure a spot for himself.

More than likely on the questionaire, it was two choices he could have picked

White
Black/African-American
Hispanic
Asian

He picked African-American, not white.

He walks into a room, do you see a white man or do you see a Black/African American?

So in the end, he doesn't get any negative racial oppression from social/political/economic institutions in American society, but he wants the scraps given to African-Americans to bandaid any racist oppression given to the community.


travesty


If I moved to Africa and lived there for a while I'd consider myself African insofar as it mattered, just because thats where I would live.

That's the most ridiculous thing i have ever heard. If i move to Europe i do not consider myself European. If you move to South America next, will you consider yourelf South American as well?


In the United States African-American is a euphemism for black. This person is not African-American but they are an American of African descent and thus an African American. Is this stupid? Absolutely. This is one of the reasons euphemisms suck.

He is not of African descent. It doesn't matter where you have been transplanted to, but where from.

At the least he is a South African American.

The key thing is to not seperate the history from the historical term African-American. Other ethnicities were Irish American, Chinese American, Japanese-American, all because they knew what country of origin they immigrated from. Due to the massive slave trade and the attrocities that occured, African-Americans do not have the knowledge of what exact country, region, tribe they came from. Nigerians who have been here for a generation or two, refer to themselves as Nigerians(or specific tribe), or Nigerian Americans. Why didn't he refer to himself as what he was, South African or South African American?

Because he wanted to exploit the system.

[Sean]

Exactly my point. There is way more to this article than meets the eye. As TC stated, African Americans are at huge disadvantagre in US society, and to somewhat rectify this situation(can be argued the success) there are scholarships and quotas in insitutions of higher learning reserved for African Americans. Now what this young man did was take advantage of semantics to secure a spot for himself.

More than likely on the questionaire, it was two choices he could have picked

White
Black/African-American
Hispanic
Asian

He picked African-American, not white.

He walks into a room, do you see a white man or do you see a Black/African American?

So in the end, he doesn't get any negative racial oppression from social/political/economic institutions in American society, but he wants the scraps given to African-Americans to bandaid any racist oppression given to the community.


travesty



That's the most ridiculous thing i have ever heard. If i move to Europe i do not consider myself European. If you move to South America next, will you consider yourelf South American as well?



He is not of African descent. It doesn't matter where you have been transplanted to, but where from.

At the least he is a South African American.

The key thing is to not seperate the history from the historical term African-American. Other ethnicities were Irish American, Chinese American, Japanese-American, all because they knew what country of origin they immigrated from. Due to the massive slave trade and the attrocities that occured, African-Americans do not have the knowledge of what exact country, region, tribe they came from. Nigerians who have been here for a generation or two, refer to themselves as Nigerians(or specific tribe), or Nigerian Americans. Why didn't he refer to himself as what he was, South African or South African American?

Because he wanted to exploit the system.
I dont see that anything about him filling out forms at all, it was a comment he made in a class, not upon registration.

[Yazman]

Yeah I don't see anything about forms or registration. It was over a comment he made in a class.

[nightazday]

what can you do the term of African American is the politically correct term usually other variations are usually offensive, racist, and dehumanizing (more of all the above) of coarse not all Caucasian are the result of colonization some moved to Africa since ancient Greece

The whole "race" system doesn't make since any its like nationalism, it can protect one from oppressive force but in the end they're just going to be the oppressors themselves

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

It's perfectly legitimate to consider yourself African-American first and white second. You have a right to self-conceptualize your identity. That alone isn't harmful. The problem is that society grants benefits to black individuals on the basis of discrimination they've faced solely due to their skin color. The discrimination isn't geographical.

However, if we assume the racial benefits are justified, how do we react to these circumstances? Communism seems to have some conception of ends justifying the means. Why is he necessarily at fault here?

If a parking spot is reserved for handicapped individuals, am I necessarily unjust if I use it in an emergency? Funding for education is a huge problem in modern society. It's not like every black individual has a harder life than every white individual. What if he needs to lie to receive what he deserves?

Why are the poor terrible when they steal from the middle class? They'd steal from the rich if they could. They can't. The guy thought lying was a good financial opportunity and/or he actually felt he was African-American first, and white second. It asked "him." This sets a precedent that any identity that involves financial rewards from the state, then, requires the acceptance of the identity by the state. They asked "him." They shouldn't have done that in the first place.

He found a loophole. Legally, he shouldn't be punished. I disagree there. A loophole is blatant exploitation. Assuming he is doing something wrong, he should be punished. However, he answered the question that way because it was either true, for one, or he felt he had good reasons for lying.

If he has a 1,000,000 dollar trust fund, throw the book at the guy. Otherwise, why not give him a break? His action wasn't necessarily unjust.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Uhm, I know whites who have ancestry that traces back to Africa, and they consider themselves African-American too.

Suspending the kid is just ridiculous.

[Mike Rotchtickles]

You cannot separate African identity from the socio-political climate. As far as I am concerned you can call yourself what ever you want in the sanctity of your own home but don’t come and trash on the identity of a whole larger group of people because of your personal beliefs. The kid was ignorant plain and simple. When people are defined in those terms "African American" etc, there is reason behind that which is connected not to just the geographical placement of an individual, it relates more importantly to a historical, cultural, and political contexts.

Try and understand why people call themselves African first. Is being Chinese limited to being born and Raised within that country? What about being Japanese or Indian? When you define or identify these people must you forget about their physical appearance, their language, religion, culture and historical legacy?

Just because you sleep in the garage, that does not make you a car.

African identity itself is a consistently evolving term. I feel some sympathy for whites who call themselves African especially here in South Africa. The problem is on a Politically correct level we can call them African but many black African peoples can never truelly regard them as African. It goes back to the aspects of:culture, language, religion, and history.

Another point, why don’t we identify all those who live in the Americas (both north and South and all the little islands around) as Americans. Is it that plain and simple?

[Il Medico]

African American does not = black. I don't know why the school's staff would be offended. This is quite ridiculous. African-American is the same as Italian-American, that means you come from former location and now are American. Nothing to do with race.

[RedHal]

African American does not = black. I don't know why the school's staff would be offended. This is quite ridiculous. African-American is the same as Italian-American, that means you come from former location and now are American. Nothing to do with race.

In the US, the term African American does = black, you can argue till you're blue in the face, but that's the accepted term in the US. I'm not black, so I can't comment, but considering the historical black experience in the US, if the black community thinks the term should be reserved for black folks, I'm not going to argue.

[Mujer Libre]

In the US, the term African American does = black, you can argue till you're blue in the face, but that's the accepted term in the US. I'm not black, so I can't comment, but considering the historical black experience in the US, if the black community thinks the term should be reserved for black folks, I'm not going to argue.
In that context I think you're right. Except as far as I can tell, the person in question described himself as African and American, rather than African-American. The two phrases have rather different implications.

[Luís Henrique]

Meanwhile, the working class...:rolleyes:

Luís Henrique

[Leo]

Good to see that you are back Luis.

[MarxSchmarx]

In that context I think you're right. Except as far as I can tell, the person in question described himself as African and American, rather than African-American. The two phrases have rather different implications.The thing is, who are we to tell anybody how they interpret their heritage?

Shouldn't people be able to call themselves whatever they damned well please, isn't that the whole reason the phrase "African-American" came to (quite rightfully, IMO) to replace "black"?

[Mike Rotchtickles]

you can call yourself what ever the fuck you want, but dont be suprised to get a negative reaction from folks if you tread on something theu feel is sacrosant. You should not be going around the world ignorant to how people feel about their history and heritage. Anyways i believe heritage cannot be seperated from what the collectives opinion of heritage is. As far as I know whites who live in Africa are not Africans. It goes back to what i said, it is not just the geographical placement of an individual that makes them an African its history and culture etc. I can live in China but know will ever consider me Chinese or Asian. Let the white boy go to a black settlement and call himself an African American. I tell you he'll either get ridiculed or get his ass kicked.

[Yazman]

you can call yourself what ever the fuck you want, but dont be suprised to get a negative reaction from folks if you tread on something theu feel is sacrosant. You should not be going around the world ignorant to how people feel about their history and heritage. Anyways i believe heritage cannot be seperated from what the collectives opinion of heritage is. As far as I know whites who live in Africa are not Africans. It goes back to what i said, it is not just the geographical placement of an individual that makes them an African its history and culture etc. I can live in China but know will ever consider me Chinese or Asian. Let the white boy go to a black settlement and call himself an African American. I tell you he'll either get ridiculed or get his ass kicked.

Thats bullshit. If a person was born in china, raised in china, spoke chinese all their life then they have every right to identify as chinese. They may not be ethnically chinese but so what?

Your argument is the same argument the BNP uses - "the children of immigrants can NEVER be considered as British, only white anglo-saxon or anglo-celtic people can ever be British. So send all the non-british to other countries, even if they were born and raised in the UK and never left it!"

[JimmyJazz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDXPpfGAZrU

[Mike Rotchtickles]

Thats bullshit. If a person was born in china, raised in china, spoke chinese all their life then they have every right to identify as chinese. They may not be ethnically chinese but so what?
I like the fact that you point out 'ethnically chinese'. Just consider what it means to be ethnically chinese. It goes back to what i have been saying 'it not about just being born in a place and being raised in a place, its not even just about speaking the language'. it relates more importantly to a historical, cultural, and political contexts.

Consider the fact that we are talking identity politics. Its not as simple as you put it.


Your argument is the same argument the BNP uses - "the children of immigrants can NEVER be considered as British, only white anglo-saxon or anglo-celtic people can ever be British. So send all the non-british to other countries, even if they were born and raised in the UK and never left it!"

This now is another argument, that of citizenship and nationalism. Its a whole different animal. No where in my arguement have i said a person who is not an ethnic native does not belong in a certain country.

Now in Britain, are people considered Scottish, English, or Welsh, just because they grow in these areas. I dont know the answer. What does it mean to be Scottish.

I think people confuse a person's citizenry with cultural identity as if they are one and the same thing.

[Verix]

if you go by what his school says then, calling a white American, "American" is offense because hes not Native American also since native americans crossed over from asia around two-thousand years ago you cant call them americans ethier, and since that Homo sapiens orginally migrated out of africa, calling anybody anything other then "african" is a offense aswell