Reasoning behind the Trotskyist Hammer and Sickle?

[Poppytry]

The hammer and sickle with the number 4 in it?.. At least I think its a 4 and I think its Trotskyist.. More info please..

and if you can summarise trotskyism in five short bullet points.

[NecroCommie]

4th international. Trotskyists generally want to "recreate" it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4th_International

[Catbus]

Ah, I was wondering about that also.

[Hit The North]

Yes, Trotsky set up the 4th International when he determined that the 3rd international, from which he and his followers were expelled from, had degenerated to become an instrument of Soviet foreign policy rather than a combative organisation of the international proletariat.

[el_chavista]

http://www.fifthinternational.org/bannerimages/lfibanner02.gif

It seems that every hammer and sickle logo with a number in it is a Trotskyite group of organizations. What I can assure is that the FT4thI and WSWS are among the most sectarian one I know.

[LOLseph Stalin]

http://www.fifthinternational.org/bannerimages/lfibanner02.gif


Wow, a fifth International? Sectarian much...

[Yehuda Stern]

What I can assure is that the 4th is the most sectarian one I know.

The 4th International was the most brave group of men in history, who fought against the tide and who were mercilessly persecuted by Stalinist, fascist and bourgeois-democratic regimes all through the 1930s and 1940s. If you can't appreciate it, then at least be quiet about things you know nothing about.


Wow, a fifth International? Sectarian much...

How is it sectarian? Do you actually have a reason to say that it is sectarian, or do you just use it as a slander against all groups you don't support?

[Salabra]

The 4th International was the most brave group of men in history, who fought against the tide and who were mercilessly persecuted by Stalinist, fascist and bourgeois-democratic regimes all through the 1930s and 1940s. If you can't appreciate it, then at least be quiet about things you know nothing about.


Only men?

[Q]

It seems that every hammer and sickle logo with a number in it is a Trotskyite group of organizations. What I can assure is that the 4th is the most sectarian one I know.
Which fourth?

[Yehuda Stern]

Only men?

No.

[LOLseph Stalin]

How is it sectarian? Do you actually have a reason to say that it is sectarian, or do you just use it as a slander against all groups you don't support?

I mean it in the context as in they could be breaking off all other internationals because they disagree with their ideas. Wouldn't that be sectarian? It seems like it to me and it has nothing to do with me saying so because I follow the ideas of the Fourth International.

[Revy]

I mean it in the context as in they could be breaking off all other internationals because they disagree with their ideas. Wouldn't that be sectarian? It seems like it to me and it has nothing to do with me saying so because I follow the ideas of the Fourth International.

I don't think that would be fair since the Fourth International fell apart and is now many different groups all seeking to "re-forge" it.

The League for the Fifth International actually expelled a number of people, who went on to form a group called Permanent Revolution. Here's some info on the split.
(http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/632/wp.htm)

[Q]

I mean it in the context as in they could be breaking off all other internationals because they disagree with their ideas. Wouldn't that be sectarian? It seems like it to me and it has nothing to do with me saying so because I follow the ideas of the Fourth International.
"Ideas" is too vague in this context. What was the split about? I think ideas follow a basic hierarchy: principles > theory > methods (strategy and tactics).

Most Trotskyist organisations split along methodical lines (which, granted, often have a root in theory), barely along principled lines. So yes, I agree that the Trotskyist movement has historically been very sectarian over the past 60 years.

But to be fair this wasn't entirely our own fault. Historically Stalinism came out of WW2 stronger (which wasn't anticipated) and the post-WW2 period saw the longest economic boom in capitalist history, giving rise to a firm believe in reformism in the workers movement in the west. These are factors we still live with today, despite the collapse of Stalinism and the failure of reformism. The workers movement (not everywhere, but as a general tendency) remains disorganised in the west and without a revolutionary credible leadership.

That may now change as we'll enter a new period historically with this crisis, one in which the workers movement will have to be forced to reinvent the class struggle.

[Patchd]

The 4th International was the most brave group of men in history, who fought against the tide and who were mercilessly persecuted by Stalinist, fascist and bourgeois-democratic regimes all through the 1930s and 1940s. If you can't appreciate it, then at least be quiet about things you know nothing about.

I think el_chavista was probably talking about the modern day 4th International. As Q rightly asks, which one?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Trotskyist_internationals

- International Workers' League (Fourth International)
- International Workers' Unity (Fourth International)
- League for the Fourth International
- International Communist League (Fourth Internationalists)
- United Secretariat of the Fourth International

[Q]

I think el_chavista was probably talking about the modern day 4th International. As Q rightly asks, which one?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Trotskyist_internationals

- International Workers' League (Fourth International)
- International Workers' Unity (Fourth International)
- League for the Fourth International
- International Communist League (Fourth Internationalists)
- United Secretariat of the Fourth International
Don't forget the:

- Co-ordinating Committee for the Refoundation of the Fourth International
- International Centre/Center of Reconstructio
- Fourth International Posadist
- International Committee of the Fourth International
- Fourth International (new name of the USFI since 2003)

Not to mention all the other Trotskyist internationals (yes, including the CWI).


The League for the Fifth International actually expelled a number of people, who went on to form a group called Permanent Revolution. Here's some info on the split.
(http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/632/wp.htm)

That article is a very sharp critique against bureaucratic centralism, as it points out very clearly why open debate between factions and tendencies is of vital need. I like it!

[Yehuda Stern]

I mean it in the context as in they could be breaking off all other internationals because they disagree with their ideas. Wouldn't that be sectarian?

No, it would be making a correct and necessary break from the reformist and centrist parties. However, since the 3rd and 4th have ceased to exist in the 40s, the only international one would have to break with is the 2nd - something which the Bolsheviks took care of way back in the 1910s. So you're a bit behind of the times with this "breaking off all other internationals" business.

[el_chavista]

The 4th International was the most brave group of men in history, who fought against the tide and who were mercilessly persecuted by Stalinist, fascist and bourgeois-democratic regimes all through the 1930s and 1940s. If you can't appreciate it, then at least be quiet about things you know nothing about.

Oh, I mistook the whole 4th International for groups like the Trotskyist Fraction 4th International and Bill Vann's World Socialist Web Site. It was a lapsus mentis (mental error).

I do appreciate the 4th International. Above all his greatest secretary: Pablo the Greek. Although there hasn't been the first Trotskyite organization seizing or electorally winning a government yet.