When religous discrimination isnt to do with faith at all?

[Bitter Ashes]

Thought this might be worth asking the question about as it's an area I've always found confusing to say the least.

There's certain times where I'm unsure whether times that there's been incidents stated that religious discrimination is occurring, but all the evidence seems to point towards a different kind of discrimination occurring.

For example:
Hitler's persecution of the Jews. Anyone, regardless of thier ethnic background could convert to Judaism and equaly, it's possible that somebody from a historically Jewish background could reject the religion. So, what on earth was all the stuff about looking for ethnic signs that somebody may be Jewish and persecuting based on that?

Or how about the campaigns ammoungst Christians against Catholics or Protestants? It seemed to be less to do with what these people believed than thier geographical area like the attacks on the Irish, or the Spanish trying to invade England, etc.

So, what do you think was going through the leaders' heads that authorised these kinds of things? Were they genuinly convinced that they were trying to rid the world of a religon they disagreed with, or just finding something that they could attempt to justify thier xenophobic attitudes to the masses with? And does the same thing occur even today, but in more subtle ways, like with Westboro Baptist Church trying to justify thier hatred of the LGBT movement by claiming that God is punishing the USA for bieng tollerant?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

For example:
Hitler's persecution of the Jews. Anyone, regardless of thier ethnic background could convert to Judaism and equaly, it's possible that somebody from a historically Jewish background could reject the religion. So, what on earth was all the stuff about looking for ethnic signs that somebody may be Jewish and persecuting based on that?

Because the Jews were seen as a racial as well as a religious grouping, obviously. Jews have had a long history of persecution in Europe, which contributed to their insularity thus maintaining them as a seperate "race".

For a long time in Europe religion was a deadly serious matter, and interfaith marriage was basically unheard of.


Or how about the campaigns ammoungst Christians against Catholics or Protestants? It seemed to be less to do with what these people believed than thier geographical area like the attacks on the Irish, or the Spanish trying to invade England, etc.Well, not really. The English were perfectly willing to massacre their own if they were the wrong religion.


So, what do you think was going through the leaders' heads that authorised these kinds of things? Were they genuinly convinced that they were trying to rid the world of a religon they disagreed with, or just finding something that they could attempt to justify thier xenophobic attitudes to the masses with? And does the same thing occur even today, but in more subtle ways, like with Westboro Baptist Church trying to justify thier hatred of the LGBT movement by claiming that God is punishing the USA for bieng tollerant?You have to ask yourself where the hatred comes from. For example, homosexuality in non-Abrahamic cultures has nowhere near the amount of bile levelled at it in comparison. As I mentioned earlier, religion was deadly serious business for centuries in Europe, and in some parts of the world today it still is.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Ranma, I think it has something to do with the people who promote this hatred are completely mental.

You make an interesting point though. Religion has nothing to do with ethnicity yet constantly religious hatred is linked with it. Probably becuase ignorance and bigotry go hand in hand.

[Jazzratt]

Ranma, I think it has something to do with the people who promote this hatred are completely mental.

I wish. The terrifying thing is that the people who create this kind of conflict are perfectly lucid. Simply saying "hitler was a nut" or whatever but it's not accurate or helpful.

[Rjevan]

For example:
Hitler's persecution of the Jews. Anyone, regardless of thier ethnic background could convert to Judaism and equaly, it's possible that somebody from a historically Jewish background could reject the religion. So, what on earth was all the stuff about looking for ethnic signs that somebody may be Jewish and persecuting based on that?
Hilter referd to the Jews as a race which "invaded other cultures in order to destroy them". It was not so much about religion, he disliked Judaism and thought it is an important part in destroying the Aryans but his main "points of critic" were about "the Jewish race" itself, the people who left what is Israel today and came to Europe during medieval times. Because the Jews were forbidden to take most of the jobs and Christians were forbiddn to trade with money many Jews became "bankers" and got rich. This and the "You have killed the son of God, our saviour!"-argument caused a tradition of persecution and hate in Europe and Hilter fueld this through his theories of a "Jewish world complot" that wants to destroy "the Aryans". The Jewish religion was not what he mainly argued about, it was "the Jewish race".


So, what do you think was going through the leaders' heads that authorised these kinds of things? Were they genuinly convinced that they were trying to rid the world of a religon they disagreed with, or just finding something that they could attempt to justify thier xenophobic attitudes to the masses with?
Hm, I think it depends on the leaders. Some, like the Spanish King Philip II were real "hardcore fanatics" who just lived to ensure that their faith spreads and the whole world sees "the truth". But others definitely didn't believe in their religion and simply used it as a nice tool to appeal to the masses and to increase their influence and power, like many medieval popes did, who personally were perhapes the most sinful and vicious persons far and wide.

I guess both applies to most of the leaders during history, most of them maybe really believed that it was their holy mission to destroy "false faith" and spread gods word but I'm sure they used religion as a welcome reason to conquer other countries and opress some old "hereditary enemies", while exploiting them.


And does the same thing occur even today, but in more subtle ways, like with Westboro Baptist Church trying to justify thier hatred of the LGBT movement by claiming that God is punishing the USA for bieng tollerant?
Yes, I think it does. While many radical Muslims are real fanatics I think some of their leaders are using Islam simply in order to become more powerful. And even today religion is often an accusation for persecution and terrible crimes and the only reason why Israel opresses Palestine is that "God promised them this country and they are his chosen people." And, as you said, the church argues that we are punished for accepting homosexuals, demoralisation and blasphemy, i.e. if we don't act they way the chruch wants us to act we will burn in hell...

[Cynical Observer]

it's because religion is the means to to an ends. it can be used as the justification for just about anything in the mind of a fanatic. clearly, these people already had it set in their hearts to persecute a group they simply used religion to justify their actions.

[benhur]

it's because religion is the means to to an ends. it can be used as the justification for just about anything in the mind of a fanatic. clearly, these people already had it set in their hearts to persecute a group they simply used religion to justify their actions.

This is a good point. People today wish to attack and humiliate brown people, but they know in a politically correct world, they cannot attack them on such flimsy basis. Instead, they attack them for belonging to Islam, rationalizing that Islam is 'evil this, evil that' and so on. In short, they use religion (in this case, Islam) as an excuse to demonize brown people, which is why even non-Muslims suffer a lot on account of their color. As one can see, racism and religion complement each other.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

This is a good point. People today wish to attack and humiliate brown people, but they know in a politically correct world, they cannot attack them on such flimsy basis. Instead, they attack them for belonging to Islam, rationalizing that Islam is 'evil this, evil that' and so on. In short, they use religion (in this case, Islam) as an excuse to demonize brown people, which is why even non-Muslims suffer a lot on account of their color. As one can see, racism and religion complement each other.

Yep, you're right there (http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_slav1.htm).

[Rebel_Serigan]

Religeon sure does cause a lot of problems and people still can say things like "we could never learn morals without the Bible". I strongly see religeon as the downfall of humanity. We can not grow as a race and as a people until we rid ourselves of this festering disease that breeds nothing but discrimination and hate. Don't get me wrong though, I am not an antitheist, I feel that spirituality is equaly important as physical improovment. It is truely only large multi-national organized religeons that go about using religeon as a means. How often do we hear about a Toaist blowing himself up for his beliefs? Or when did the Buhddists go on a misson from The Enlightened One himself to destroy all other ideals?

Not only that but religeon breeds ignorance and offers what I like to call a "cop out mentality" it is never your fault because it is god's plan, or maybe the devil made you do it. Those types of people sicken me. What you did you did because YOU decided to, not because a magical sky ghost dictated it to be so. There is no good or evil in this world just people who have differing methods of brainwashing and don't agree. Religeon is an easy way to get rid of anythign you don't like and make other people "see your way of thinking" whiether they want to or not.

We spend so much time trying to kill other people's gods when we should be trying to cut down our own so-called god. Men can be tyrants, but they use the imagined heavenly tyrants as a nice solid base, just ask Sadam.

[Bitter Ashes]

Yikes Noxion! That's scary reading! :crying:
Rebel Serigan, I totaly see what you mean. Just take one look at an insurance policy and you'll see that you're not covered for "acts of god", so these clergy actualy have a substantial ammount of power as they can declare any loss as an act of god and let the bourgeois smirk about it.