US Military Beginning to Crack?

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Five soldiers in Iraq shot dead by comrade:


U.S. Soldier in Iraq Kills 5 Comrades at Stress Clinic

Washington Post Foreign Service

Tuesday, May 12, 2009

BAGHDAD, May 11 -- An American soldier opened fire on comrades Monday afternoon inside a combat stress clinic at a large U.S. military base in Baghdad, killing five and wounding three in an attack that prompted officials to promise to try to ease the strain on troops deployed to war zones.

The gunman was taken into custody shortly after the 2 p.m. shooting at Camp Liberty, part of a sprawling military installation near Baghdad international airport, U.S. military spokesman Lt. Col. Brian Tribus said.

The military did not identify the gunman or shed light on what his motive may have been. Tribus said the gunman's name will be disclosed when and if charges are filed.

Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates and President Obama vowed to conduct a thorough investigation.

"I would like to express my horror and deep regret for today's shooting incident," Gates said at a briefing at the Pentagon. "Such a tragic loss of life at the hands of our own forces is a cause for great and urgent concern."

Gates said the Pentagon needs to redouble its efforts to relieve the stress caused by repeated deployments in war zones with limited time at home in between.

The shooting, among the deadliest attacks on American troops in Iraq in recent months, comes as U.S. commanders are grappling with the rising rate at which service members are committing suicide. Military leaders have attributed the increase to the stress of multiple deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan.

Monday's attack was the deadliest incident involving a soldier opening fire on comrades since the 2003 invasion of Iraq.

The rampage shook up soldiers at Victory Base Compound, which includes Camp Liberty, in large part because most feel relatively safe at the heavily guarded base.

"A lot of soldiers are wondering why," said a senior military official in Baghdad, who spoke on the condition of anonymity. "We will be asking as leaders: What could we have done? How could we have protected the soldiers?"

Read the rest here:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/11/AR2009051103143.html

[GPDP]

"We will be asking as leaders: What could we have done? How could we have protected the soldiers?"

Does this even warrant a response?

I think we all know what could have been done to avoid this.

[FreeFocus]

Well, this is one American attack that I don't condemn..

[Salyut]

And does the US Military care?
/news/special/coming_home/2009/04/08/tape/
/news/special/coming_home/2009/02/12/coming_home_three/

Nope!

(just put salon.com in front of the first slash - I can't link yet. :(

[S.O.I]

http://salon.com/news/special/coming_home/2009/04/08/tape/
http://salon.com/news/special/coming_home/2009/02/12/coming_home_three/

[scarletghoul]

Five soldiers in Iraq shot dead by comrade:
Aww, I thought you meant there was a commie insurgency in iraq now :( way to get my hopes up

[Lord Testicles]

Well, this is one American attack that I don't condemn..

Yeah, there is nothing like telling working class mothers that you are glad their children are now dead to create some class solidarity. :rolleyes:

Don't get me wrong, I don't support the troops but cheering on their deaths at the hands of the bourgeois hardly seems like the right thing to do.

[STJ]

This is great news. I am all for them killing each other off.

[NecroCommie]

I join STJ on this one. At last those nationalists do something worthwhile.

[A New Era]

I read on either Yahoo News or BBC News (can't remember which) that the guy was an imam at the base. That explains it.

[teenagebricks]

Suggesting that five dead soldiers is a good thing is plain stupid, most people who enlist are stupid as fuck, broke as fuck, and have nowhere else to go. Many serving soldiers are so damn poor that with the right amount of education we could possibly call them our comrades one day. Don't blame them for the horrors of war.

[Bitter Ashes]

Combat Stress Disorders are the probable cause, although there was an incident a while back too of a US Army Sergeant converted to Islam and went on a massacre of other soldiers.

[NecroCommie]

Suggesting that five dead soldiers is a good thing is plain stupid, most people who enlist are stupid as fuck, broke as fuck, and have nowhere else to go. Many serving soldiers are so damn poor that with the right amount of education we could possibly call them our comrades one day. Don't blame them for the horrors of war.
Many whites in our civil war joined the whites because it was easier. I would not sympathise them and call myself communist at the same time. Communism is putting your personal advantages aside to further the cause of your class.

[teenagebricks]

Hate the war, not the troops, a lot of them would support our cause if they weren't brainwashed by Bibles, Presidents and "the threat of terrorism".

[khad]

Yeah, there is nothing like telling working class mothers that you are glad their children are now dead to create some class solidarity. :rolleyes:

Don't get me wrong, I don't support the troops but cheering on their deaths at the hands of the bourgeois hardly seems like the right thing to do.

So are soldiers working class or bourgeois? Or are only soldiers who rebel and lash out against the system bourgeois? :ohmy:

[Revulero]

Hell yeah most kids are brainwashed to join the military. Where I live the military has amazing success recruiting young poor hispanics. I have a friend in the marines brainwashed by the rip off bonuses they slap in your face and a cousin who joined for the same reasons, saying that they will also pay for his schooling and teach him "leadership skills" that will help him find a job. So its not that all of the soldiers are stupid nationalist some join because of the opportunities they're brainwashed to see rather than living the crappy lifestyle they all ready have. They really have nothing to lose especially when those bloodsucking recruiters present their lies. This is really sad, I remember my cousin telling me that being sent to Afghanistan was the last thing he wanted to do, but eventually they called him up and is currently serving right now. I just hope he doesn't come back messed up because I know his intentions were to put food on the table for my family and to make a better life in this shit hole we live in, not to be some nationalist murderer.

[NecroCommie]

As long as they are shooting my brothers to further imperialist agenda I wish they are dead. I dont care how brainwashed they are.

[FreeFocus]

I deal with the reality of the situation. Soldiers are reactionary. They serve an imperialist settler state. The institution itself has never been one that wasn't engaged in imperialism and murder. Given this history, I would certainly not associate myself with someone who joined up knowing full well what has been done in the past and who likely doesn't care what's going on in the present (all so that they can "have a job" or "go to college").

As for Skinz' comment, well, boo-hoo. Their mothers are most likely reactionary and imperialist too.

[Revulero]

As long as capitalism and imperialism exists, it will force innocent poor people like my cuz to seem guilty for trying to better himself and his family's lives.:(

[NaxalbariZindabad]

As long as they are shooting my brothers to further imperialist agenda I wish they are dead. I dont care how brainwashed they are.

I agree. Killing imperialist soldiers saves lives.

[teenagebricks]

It doesn't, decades of imperialism proves that governments send their troops to foreign countries regardless of how much danger the soldiers will be put into. If anything, soldiers dying will encourage goverments to strengthen their forces, Obama's Afghanistan strategy has proved this.

As for Skinz' comment, well, boo-hoo. Their mothers are most likely reactionary and imperialist too.
Nice stereotype, unfortunately it's completely flawed. Even if their parents were reactionary, does they really deserve to lose their child? A reactionary is entitled to his or her opinion, even if it is screwed up.

[FreeFocus]

Nice stereotype, unfortunately it's completely flawed. Even if their parents were reactionary, does they really deserve to lose their child? A reactionary is entitled to his or her opinion, even if it is screwed up.

My concern isn't their parents, it's the soldier. They are held responsible for their contribution to imperialism.

You can think what you want, as long as you don't act for its realization.

[Revulero]

You seem to be blaming the wrong people. I'm not saying all soldiers are innocent, but there has to be line drawn when it comes for people who join willingly knowing they were going to kill and some who were tricked into thinking they would stay in the states on base.

[teenagebricks]

Indeed, everyone here knows how corrupt the recruitment system is. Any soldier who dies in an unjust war was murdered by the state, not by Taliban, not by the Marine who lost his head and opened fire on his own comrades, by the state and only by the state.

[John The Outlaw]

Good news.

No tears will be shed
For soldiers of war returning in bags
No tears will be shed
For the fucking cops who die at our hands

-Severed head of State "No Love Lost"

[Lord Testicles]

So are soldiers working class or bourgeois? Or are only soldiers who rebel and lash out against the system bourgeois? :ohmy:

The soldiers are there because of the bourgeois, so any deaths that occur are on their hands.



Given this history, I would certainly not associate myself with someone who joined up knowing full well what has been done in the past and who likely doesn't care what's going on in the present (all so that they can "have a job" or "go to college").

Some people need a job so they can pay bills (read: economic conscription) but as someone who deals with the reality of situations I expect that you already know this.


As for Skinz' comment, well, boo-hoo. Their mothers are most likely reactionary and imperialist too.

It's nice to see that you ground your views in reality.

[FreeFocus]

Skinz:

I understand that economic factors play a role, but people make statements with what they do. Is sympathy felt for the twenty year old thug who mugs and kills an old lady for $50?

I don't like the fact that people join but as far as I'm concerned, joining is a statement. "I don't give a shit about the massacres of the past, present, or future." That is what is says, just like the thug who killed the old lady - "I don't give a shit about her." Then, the reality of the situation dictates that imperialist pigs are just that.

[gowavescene]

I deal with the reality of the situation. Soldiers are reactionary. They serve an imperialist settler state. The institution itself has never been one that wasn't engaged in imperialism and murder. Given this history, I would certainly not associate myself with someone who joined up knowing full well what has been done in the past and who likely doesn't care what's going on in the present (all so that they can "have a job" or "go to college").

As for Skinz' comment, well, boo-hoo. Their mothers are most likely reactionary and imperialist too.

You're not getting it. The imperialist forces that have caused the suffering of all the oppressed people you side with are the same forces that have marginalized millions of young people all over the Western World and left the military as the only attractive and viable option for employment. For the main part, upper-class fucks aren't the ones doing the fighting anymore...it's the poor. I mean, sorry to reiterate what others have said, and to come off slightly patronizing...but, you know.

[NecroCommie]

You're not getting it. The imperialist forces that have caused the suffering of all the oppressed people you side with are the same forces that have marginalized millions of young people all over the Western World and left the military as the only attractive and viable option for employment. For the main part, upper-class fucks aren't the ones doing the fighting anymore...it's the poor. I mean, sorry to reiterate what others have said, and to come off slightly patronizing...but, you know.
The poor has always been cheated to fight for the fascists/imperialists and other such crap. You dont sympathize with nazi soldiers do you? Or Spanish fascists? Or coalition troops?

So many make their way without joining the army. Some take the setbacks conciously, knowing that joining the army means suffering of foreign comrades. Why should we sympathize the ones who are not willing to take even that much for their class? It is true that the army is the easiest way for some folks, but can that truly be any kind of justification? I guess the soviet troops should just have given up then in 1941. Seeing that the bulk of the nazi troops were working class in civilian life.

This kind of "massacring rapist soldiers are working class too!"-thinking is objectivist humanist in nature, and has nothing to do with class war.



The soldiers are there because of the bourgeois, so any deaths that occur are on their hands.

The nürnberg defence is for nazi apologizers.


Nice stereotype, unfortunately it's completely flawed. Even if their parents were reactionary, does they really deserve to lose their child? A reactionary is entitled to his or her opinion, even if it is screwed up.

What about the parents of those countless men who the, ah, so victimized soldier shoots on daily basis? Any kind of "think of the victims!"-defence is doomed to fail since the coalition produces way more victims than it receives. This applies on all levels of "victimhood".

If the coalition troop is victim of bourgeoisie economy, the insurgent troop is a victim of the very existence of these coalition troops. It just happens that only the religious nuts there have succeeded in fighting back --> Thusly all who fight the coalition back, have to support the religious nuts to some degree.

[gowavescene]

The poor has always been cheated to fight for the fascists/imperialists and other such crap. You dont sympathize with nazi soldiers do you? Or Spanish fascists? Or coalition troops?

So many make their way without joining the army. Some take the setbacks conciously, knowing that joining the army means suffering of foreign comrades. Why should we sympathize the ones who are not willing to take even that much for their class? It is true that the army is the easiest way for some folks, but can that truly be any kind of justification? I guess the soviet troops should just have given up then in 1941. Seeing that the bulk of the nazi troops were working class in civilian life.

This kind of "massacring rapist soldiers are working class too!"-thinking is objectivist humanist in nature, and has nothing to do with class war.

Of course I have sympathy for those people; I don't excuse any atrocities they may commit, but I certainly feel bad that they have been indoctrinated to that extent, or left with no options due to economic circumstances beyond their control.

[NecroCommie]

Of course I have sympathy for those people; I don't excuse any atrocities they may commit, but I certainly feel bad that they have been indoctrinated to that extent, or left with no options due to economic circumstances beyond their control.
The point I was trying to make, is that you wish for their utter defeat, for their victory is insufferable for the working class. Similarly, I cheer for the defeat of the coalition troops.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

More on this:


US leaders are struggling to explain why an increasing number of its servicemen, including those stationed at home, are taking their own lives or the lives of their fellow comrades.

…US officials did not provide a motive for the attack, but it seems to be part of a larger picture of soldiers being driven to desperation by repeated deployments, excessive use of anti-depressant medication and the 24/7 stress of a nation that has been fighting on two dangerous fronts for almost a decade.

In September, an Army sergeant killed two of his superior officers after they threatened to relieve him of duty for negligence.

…Stress is taking a heavy toll on US soldiers in Iraq. About one-fifth of all US servicemen are believed to be suffering from ‘post-traumatic stress disorder,’

Researchers are even looking at how much sleep the average soldier is getting, and argue that the present amount of 5.6 hours, under conditions of extreme stress, could be a large part of the problem.

… Between September 2008 and last month, 72 US troops died as a result of non-combat causes, including suicide and death at the hands of fellow soldiers; just 67 died as a result of contact with the enemy.

Moreover, the Army reports that an estimated five soldiers in Iraq attempt to commit suicide each day.

Suicide : In 2008, the US Army hit a grim milestone: 140 soldiers had committed suicide by the year’s end – the highest annual rate of suicide among soldiers since the Pentagon began keeping records on the rate 28 years ago.

This means that for the first time a US soldier is more likely than a civilian to take his own life. It also means that an American soldier is more likely to die as a result of his own volition, as opposed to that of an enemy.

In the first four months of 2009, the US Army reported 64 suicides.

http://www.russiatoday.com/Politics/2009-05-12/I_Want_You__not_to_go_crazy_in_the_US_Army__.html/print

[NecroCommie]

so?...


...What about... ...those countless men who the, ah, so victimized soldier shoots on daily basis? Any kind of "think of the victims!"-defence is doomed to fail since the coalition produces way more victims than it receives. This applies on all levels of "victimhood"...

[redSHARP]

those troops need to come back home...this war has got to end.

[teenagebricks]

What about the parents of those countless men who the, ah, so victimized soldier shoots on daily basis?
I feel sadness for them also, and for anyone else who loses a child, because any true revolutionary understands the value of living things, especially human beings.

[gowavescene]

Precisely. NecroCommie, you're pushing a pretty heartless agenda here, and you're failing to recognize who the true enemies of your cause are.

[Pawn Power]

From talking to Vets, both of Afghanistan War and the Iraq War, they have said to me that they are surprised at how 'together' the military looks, when in fact, moral is extraordinarily low, soldiers are pissed, and are not very concerned with frightening or even risking there lives.

While there isn't a ton killing fellow soldiers (on purpose) there is conscience resistance. One of the most common practices, so common that vets tell me that all vets they have talked to engaged in, is when being told to go on a 'mission' like driving a Humvee around in enemy territory soldiers would just drive a few miles outside the base and park it for a few hours. The more they drive around the higher chance they have of hitting a road side bomb. They also see these missions as not helping anybody but there commanding officers mission to get more medals.

So yes, the military has been cracking for a while and we can only expect to get more GI resistance, especially since they are on there 3rd and 4th tours.

[NecroCommie]

I feel sadness for them also, and for anyone else who loses a child, because any true revolutionary understands the value of living things, especially human beings.
I understand where you're coming from, but it comes a pretty tough situation being a revolutionary and sympathizing for those whom you have to shoot to achieve your revolution.

The fact is that there must be some line where a man becomes a target for us, instead of just another man. You dudes just draw that line very far, thats all.

[Communist Theory]

All of you saying you are glad that soldiers are killing their own comrades FUCK OFF
Seriously? They were probably no older then 20 and you're saying "Yay I'm all for killing them longs as somebody dies duhhh" -STJ. C'mon get off the one line posts and actually post something meaningful. Sure they fight for the Capitalist's but do you think that maybe they just wanted to serve their country or maybe they did it because their granddad was in the armed forces. You guys can really be idiots sometimes.

[NecroCommie]

Sure they fight for the Capitalist's but do you think that maybe they just wanted to serve their country or maybe they did it because their granddad was in the armed forces.These are not valid reasons to kill people. Thats my primary quarrel with these dudes.


They were probably no older then 20Older than some of the people they shoot.

Lets face it: US troops killing each other is a lot easier than Iraqis having to kill them.

[Communist Theory]

These are not valid reasons to kill people. Thats my primary quarrel with these dudes.
What's your primary quarrel?
That they've watched propaganda all their lives and want to be one of the "few and the proud." or maybe because they wanted to go to college but couldn't afford it so they decide to use the G.I. Bill to pay for their higher learning to get a good job in a failing economy?

[NecroCommie]

So if you really believe that americans are the master race, its ok to kill everyone else? How does that justify sympathy for capitalist troops without justifying horrendous mass murders?

[Communist Theory]

So if you really believe that americans are the master race, its ok to kill everyone else? How does that justify sympathy for capitalist troops without justifying horrendous mass murders?
Show me where I glorify the "master race".
And if you don't know I'm Native American and don't care at all for the U.S. Gov't or the occupation of Iraq. I'm not trying to justify mass murders, just recently the U.S. dropped bombs on a civilian village killing around 120 innocents but nothing is being done about that. The ones responsible for bombings like that are the ones who should be blamed. All I'm saying is that 5 mothers lost a child because the capitalist system want's oil. If anything you should be "all for" killing the CEOs of oil companies.

[NecroCommie]

Show me where I glorify the "master race".
I did not mean YOU. I just used the "you-passive" to illustrate a hypothetical example.

The ones responsible for bombings like that are the ones who should be blamed. All I'm saying is that 5 mothers lost a child because the capitalist system want's oil. If anything you should be "all for" killing the CEOs of oil companies.Few men are not capable of atrocities. As a communist, one should know that all real change and impact need the support of the masses. This is exactly the role the army is meant for. To provide otherwise weak ruling class with an instrument of violence.

Besides, yet onethor example of the heinous nürnberg defence. It is very difficult to use it without trying to justify the actions of numerous nazi war criminals.

Besides: The defence can be reversed. If the soldiers are only following illegal orders, they should be charged by international court. If they deny the order, they are jailed by the superior officer. Therefore only meaningful factor should be the individuals morality. The reverse nürnberg defence is continuously applied by actual US army deserters, seeking safe haven from canada.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_defence

(oops... I spelled Nuremberg wrong quite a few times...)

[Communist Theory]

You don't see U.S. soldiers herding Iraqi citizen's and shooting them.
It would be difficult to use the nürnberg defense if I was trying to justify the U.S. soldiers when they were as bad as the Nazis and as I said before I'm not trying to justify the actions of any army or insurgent group. I'm only saying that no soldier deserves to die for their country's greed.
Also I'm not a pacifist although I know I sound like it right now.

[NecroCommie]

You don't see U.S. soldiers herding Iraqi citizen's and shooting them.
It would be difficult to use the nürnberg defense if I was trying to justify the U.S. soldiers when they were as bad as the Nazis and as I said before I'm not trying to justify the actions of any army or insurgent group. I'm only saying that no soldier deserves to die for their country's greed.
Also I'm not a pacifist although I know I sound like it right now.

I am not saying that the Iraq war can be compared to the nazi holocaust, but both are essentially immoral, and unjustified. (agreed?) Therefore the same philosophical and political defences and attacks apply.

As for the deserve to die. Thats my point. You are basically saying that the soldiers' deaths are due to the capitalist class (They had to join/followed orders/nuremberg defence). Whereas I am saying that joining the army is a statement and a moral choice. Thusly, individual soldiers are at least partialy responsible for their own demise.

From wikipedia:


Principle IV

The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him. "I was following orders", is not an excuse.
See also: Nuremberg Defense (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Defense) and Superior Orders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_Orders)
For Pre-Nuremberg history of "I was just following orders", see Superior Orders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_Orders).
So if you were ordered to enter Iraq and shoot Iraqis under the threath of punishment, it is no excuse to actually do so.
If one denies this, one is defending nazi war criminals, since this principle was the only reason some nazis could have ever been convicted.

More wikipedia:


Canada and Nuremberg Principle IV

Nuremberg Principle IV, and its reference to an individual’s responsibility, was at issue in Canada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada) in the case of Hinzman v. Canada. Jeremy Hinzman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Hinzman) was a U.S. Army (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Army) deserter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deserter) who claimed refugee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugee) status in Canada as a conscientious objector (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscientious_objector), one of many Iraq War resisters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Iraq_War_Resisters#Objectors_who_have_fled _to_Canada). Hinzman's lawyer, Jeffry House (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffry_House) had previously raised the issue of the legality of the Iraq War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_the_Iraq_War) as having a bearing on their case. The Federal Court (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Court_%28Canada%29) ruling was released on March 31, 2006, and denied the refugee status claim.[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_Orders#cite_note-10)[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_Orders#cite_note-11) In the decision, Justice Anne L. Mactavish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Mactavish) addressed the issue of personal responsibility:

“An individual must be involved at the policy-making level to be culpable for a crime against peace ... the ordinary foot soldier is not expected to make his or her own personal assessment as to the legality of a conflict. Similarly, such an individual cannot be held criminally responsible for fighting in support of an illegal war, assuming that his or her personal war-time conduct is otherwise proper.”[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_Orders#cite_note-12) [14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_Orders#cite_note-13)

On Nov 15, 2007, a Coram of the Supreme Court of Canada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Court_of_Canada) made of Justices Michel Bastarache (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Bastarache), Rosalie Abella (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosalie_Abella), and Louise Charron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louise_Charron) refused an application to have the Court hear the case on appeal, without giving reasons.[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_Orders#cite_note-14) [16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_Orders#cite_note-15)
“... in written arguments to the Supreme Court of Canada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Court_of_Canada), Mr. House (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffry_House) pointed out that although our courts have so far refused to grant refugee status to Americans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US) soldiers who are deserting military duty out of moral objection to the war in Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_war), in 1995 the Federal Court of Appeal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Court_of_Canada) granted refugee status to a deserter from Saddam Hussein's armed incursion into Kuwait (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Kuwait), on the basis that he should not be compelled to take part in an illegal war.
"The courts are taking one stance for Saddam Hussein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hussein)'s soldiers and another one entirely for American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US) soldiers," Mr. House (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffry_House) said.” [17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_Orders#cite_note-16)

[PRC-UTE]

All of you saying you are glad that soldiers are killing their own comrades FUCK OFF
Seriously? They were probably no older then 20 and you're saying "Yay I'm all for killing them longs as somebody dies duhhh" -STJ. C'mon get off the one line posts and actually post something meaningful. Sure they fight for the Capitalist's but do you think that maybe they just wanted to serve their country or maybe they did it because their granddad was in the armed forces. You guys can really be idiots sometimes.

I thought this person shot officers?

[SocialismOrBarbarism]

One can only wonder why we have no support from the working class. It's not like we're celebrating the deaths of their children or anything. Oh, wait...

[John The Outlaw]

those troops need to come back home...this war has got to end.

Another war will start. War is the health of the state. The state functions at it's best at war.

[Communist Theory]

And you wonder why the Americans think commies are scum?
We celebrate the deaths of their children and think they'll accept us?
I bet the guys on stormfront have a thread on going on about NecroCommie and STJ's posts on this thread right now.

[FreeFocus]

And you wonder why the Americans think commies are scum?
We celebrate the deaths of their children and think they'll accept us?
I bet the guys on stormfront have a thread on going on about NecroCommie and STJ's posts on this thread right now.

Get real CT. Americans had reactionary tendencies and were anti-collectivist since the very beginning. It's not a new phenomena, and didn't happen because we "celebrate the deaths of their children." The deaths of Afghan, Palestinian, and Iraqi children are celebrated all the time. The countless children murdered from all conflicts involving the US are celebrated, every day with a pledge and every year with Veteran's Day and Memorial Day.

Let Stormfront have their fucking thread. No one cares.

[gowavescene]

FreeFocus, that's an infantile response. "Oh well, they celebrate the deaths of the innocent all the time, so it's fine if we trample our collective conscience into the ground and celebrate the hideous murder of five young people at the hands of someone clearly mentally deranged because of their experience in a theatre of war." This is like having a conversation concerning morals with a five year old kid. This shouldn't be an eye-for-an-eye world. Stop. Being. Bloodthirsty.

[FreeFocus]

FreeFocus, that's an infantile response. "Oh well, they celebrate the deaths of the innocent all the time, so it's fine if we trample our collective conscience into the ground and celebrate the hideous murder of five young people at the hands of someone clearly mentally deranged because of their experience in a theatre of war." This is like having a conversation concerning morals with a five year old kid. This shouldn't be an eye-for-an-eye world. Stop. Being. Bloodthirsty.

I didn't say it's a nice thing and that it would be desirable in a better world, but in the world we're in, I'm not complaining. On an individual level, and in different circumstances, I would sympathize with them. But they are involved with an apparatus, that they constitute (no militaries without soldiers), that has, is, and will rape, loot, and murder entire nations.

People are responsible for their actions, just as that hypothetical twenty-year-old who brutally killed an elderly woman that I used as an example earlier. Except in his case, at least there's a case to be made that he's a victim in a capitalist system, pushed to crime because he can't find a job (although that's a pretty bad case for someone to argue - robbery is certainly better than murder). That doesn't excuse his behavior, and punishment is still justice there. However, imperialist soldiers constitute a vital part of the capitalist-imperialist system. They do not exist outside of it. They are the system.

[SocialismOrBarbarism]

The deaths of Afghan, Palestinian, and Iraqi children are celebrated all the time. The countless children murdered from all conflicts involving the US are celebrated, every day with a pledge and every year with Veteran's Day and Memorial Day.

Are you fucking kidding me? This post is about as dumb as that guy asking us to form a revolutionary army in the third world.


But they are involved with an apparatus, that they constitute (no militaries without soldiers), that has, is, and will rape, loot, and murder entire nations.

And until you drop out of the capitalist system and live on a hippy commune then you are too. Perhaps we should celebrate when you die?

[FreeFocus]

And until you drop out of the capitalist system and live on a hippy commune then you are too. Perhaps we should celebrate when you die?

I'm not willingly undertaking activities and joining institutions that are directly involved in the delivery of death and destruction. Clearly I was talking about the institution of the military itself. Please read posts carefully and work on your comprehension skills.

[gowavescene]

They do not exist outside of it. They are the system.

That's all so irrelevant when it comes to the matter of their deaths. I've already given you my reservations about the notion of flatly labelling them members of the "system", so I won't go into it again. What I will reiterate is the fact that it's pointless, counter-productive to the socialist cause and, most of all unconscionable to celebrate death, regardless of who it visits and the circumstances in which it comes to them.

[NecroCommie]

So, whn capitalists threaten us with violence and demand we stop the revolution, we just agree, since we would not want to harm them? We could not celebrate revolutions, since they were the ultimate demise of capitalist class? Where goes the line of nice capitalists deaths and inconvenient capitalist deaths?

[NecroCommie]

And you wonder why the Americans think commies are scum?
We celebrate the deaths of their children and think they'll accept us?
I bet the guys on stormfront have a thread on going on about NecroCommie and STJ's posts on this thread right now.
And if we dont celbrate Iraqi victories = coalition defeats, we lose the support of Iraqi working class. Its a lose-lose situation.

As to stormfronters: Why should we even care? Those people are vile scum anyways, and most often they are as stupid as poo also!

[Communist Theory]

If the U.S. would send troops to stop the revolution I think they have the wait till the enemy shoots first rule though although they probably don't follow it considering the whole "Jesus killed Mohammed" thing they pulled just to draw fire on easter. I'm done arguing my point because while I keep coming up with different points I keep hearing "imperialist bourgeoisie troops" from you guys.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

This topic has now been continued in the following thread:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/us-soldiers-killing-t109082/index.html