Colombian troops killed in ambush

[ComradeR]

Seven Colombian soldiers have been killed and four wounded in an ambush by left-wing rebels in the south-west of the country.
Rebels from the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (Farc) launched the attack overnight between Saturday and Sunday, a regional official said.
It came just over a week after the Farc killed eight soldiers in the north-east, near the border with Venezuela.
The attacks are seen evidence that the group is not a spent force.
Fabio Trujillo, a top official in Narino region, confirmed the ambush in the rural district of Samaniego.
An explosive device was set off at almost the same time near the police quarters, wounding two officers, he said.
President Alvaro Uribe condemned the attack.
Safe havens
The Farc has suffered a series of reversals recently, including the death of leader and founder Manuel Marulanda last year.
But the BBC's Jeremy McDermott in Colombia says the rebels appear to be regrouping and retaking the initiative after six years on the back foot.
The new leader, Alfonso Cano, has given the Farc a new vision, he says, directing the rebels towards urban centres and launching more rural ambushes.
Both this weekend's attack and the one in the north-east late last month happened near Colombia's borders.
The rebels are using the border areas as safe havens from which to plan and execute attacks, out of reach of the security forces, our correspondent says.
Narino, near Colombia's border with Ecuador, is also home to the densest concentration of drug crops in the country.
The Farc and other armed groups have profited from the drug trade in Colombia, the world's largest producer of cocaine.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8043085.stm
That last bit just kills me, the media is always trying to paint the Farc as nothing but a murderous narco gang.

[Andropov]

Good news.

[NecroCommie]

Up with the revolution!!!
Congrats to the Colombian comrades.

[khad]

I'm sorry. How can you say it's good news? I mean, I mean, those poor innocent soldiers were oppressed working-class folks who were just trying to do their job of raping, burning, and killing the jungle safe for their poor, oppressed, working-class families.

Think of the children! :crying:

[scarletghoul]

Cool. Yes the last part is strange. Especially compared to the article I read earlier on Xinhua-
.... The attack occurred after President Alvaro Uribe ordered government forces to halt a wave of violence in Narino where guerrillas and drug traffickers were fighting for the control of the land.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-05/11/content_11350100.htm

[Black Sheep]

I'm sorry. How can you say it's good news? I mean, I mean, those poor innocent soldiers were oppressed working-class folks who were just trying to do their job of raping, burning, and killing the jungle safe for their poor, oppressed, working-class families.

Think of the children! :crying:
For fuck's sake, have a tissue.
It is good news,it is another victory for FARC.
FARC is a guerilla group, they pretty much depend on ambushes, guns & supplies taken from them, intelligence gained, etc

The poor working class oppressed people in the national army are the enemy, we can do nothing about it.And they will always be the enemy, as in most cases, a nation's army is made up of the working class.
Those who ally themselves with the enemy, are obstacles to our cause.Obstacles that of course,it would be better to recruit,but keep in mind that this can't always be the case.

It is a war.People die.In class struggle of that level, people die.Get over it.

[STJ]

Great news.The media always does that.

[Andropov]

For fuck's sake, have a tissue.
It is good news,it is another victory for FARC.
FARC is a guerilla group, they pretty much depend on ambushes, guns & supplies taken from them, intelligence gained, etc

The poor working class oppressed people in the national army are the enemy, we can do nothing about it.And they will always be the enemy, as in most cases, a nation's army is made up of the working class.
Those who ally themselves with the enemy, are obstacles to our cause.Obstacles that of course,it would be better to recruit,but keep in mind that this can't always be the case.

It is a war.People die.In class struggle of that level, people die.Get over it.
I think khad was being ironic?

[S.O.I]

how do i apply for membership? :cool:

[NecroCommie]

I was about to say the same. I have considered joining quite seriously a couple times.

[khad]

For fuck's sake, have a tissue.
It is good news,it is another victory for FARC.
FARC is a guerilla group, they pretty much depend on ambushes, guns & supplies taken from them, intelligence gained, etc

The poor working class oppressed people in the national army are the enemy, we can do nothing about it.And they will always be the enemy, as in most cases, a nation's army is made up of the working class.
Those who ally themselves with the enemy, are obstacles to our cause.Obstacles that of course,it would be better to recruit,but keep in mind that this can't always be the case.

It is a war.People die.In class struggle of that level, people die.Get over it.

Dude, sarcasm.

[S.O.I]

I was about to say the same. I have considered joining quite seriously a couple times.

im more serious than you!

[SocialismOrBarbarism]

Sorry to be a combo breaker, but what is with all of the support for FARC? Is it just that they killed some Colombia soldiers?

[S.O.I]

Sorry to be a combo breaker, but what is with all of the support for FARC? Is it just that they killed some Colombia soldiers?


you dont know much about latin america do you? i can tell

[SocialismOrBarbarism]

you dont know much about latin america do you? i can tell

Asking a question like that is always a good way to make it appear like you know more than you actually do. If you know so much, perhaps you could actually explain what's going on and why that means FARC deserves support?

[cyu]

what is with all of the support for FARC? Is it just that they killed some Colombia soldiers?

From http://www.revleft.com/vb/thousands-civilians-killed-t108588/index.html

"it was found that poor, young men had been recruited from the slums of Bogota, promised well-paying jobs in the province of Norte de Santander, then murdered in cold blood and presented by the army as having been killed in combat...

It is alleged that soldiers were sent to the city of Medellin to round up homeless people from the streets who were later presented by the army as rebels killed in combat."

You know what they say: "the enemy of my enemy is my..." - well if not "friend" then at least a useful tool in the fight against your enemies anyway.

[khad]

The anti-liberationists need to get off their moral high horse.

[Black Sheep]

Dude, sarcasm.
Whoops. :bored:

Well,such arguments are too often not sarcastic.

[khad]

Whoops. :bored:

Well,such arguments are too often not sarcastic.
I tried to make it an extreme parody of what some folks on here like to say.

Granted, what they think of armed resistance is already loony enough--it's hard to outdo them. ;)

[scarletghoul]

If I was gonna join a guerilla organisations it would probably be the naxalites

[RedSonRising]

The FARC are just as oppressive to countryside peasants as government-backed Paramilitaries are; the government simply chooses to attack one and support/conveniently ignore the other. My parents are of Colombia and I have been there many times, analyzing the situation of the FARC and their relationship with the media closely, and violence such as this is something I am indifferent to.

[Andropov]

The FARC are just as oppressive to countryside peasants as government-backed Paramilitaries are; the government simply chooses to attack one and support/conveniently ignore the other. My parents are of Colombia and I have been there many times, analyzing the situation of the FARC and their relationship with the media closely, and violence such as this is something I am indifferent to.
But in the last cease fire did hundreds of thousands of peasants not emigrate to FARC controlled territory?

[Marxist]

Great news comrades!!! Long live the FARC-EP!!!

[Uppercut]

Boo-yah! Go FARC! Show the U.S. that South America is not our colony!

[SocialismOrBarbarism]

Fuck yeah! We don't care if they have virtually no support from the working class as long as they kill a few Colombian soldiers and further alienate the workers they claim to be fighting for!

[RedSonRising]

But in the last cease fire did hundreds of thousands of peasants not emigrate to FARC controlled territory?

The instability of the job market often leads the unemployed and landless to either join the military or the FARC for the economic incentives, usually as casualties from the destructive violence.

[cyu]

We don't care if they have virtually no support from the working class as long as they kill a few Colombian soldiers and further alienate the workers they claim to be fighting for!
If they have no support anyway, do we really care if they are alienating the working population? Well, yes, it would be a problem if Colombians were presented with a false dichotomy: either you support Uribe or you support FARC. As long as the media is successful in convincing everyone that these are the only choices available, then the capitalists will win.

However, if you look at it from another perspective, as long as FARC is keeping Uribe busy, then it allows other movements to take hold while Uribe is busy running around in the jungle. It was a similar situation when the Bush regime was bogged down in Afghanistan and Iraq. If the Bush regime was not bogged down over in the Middle East, it would have had much more time and resources to suppress leftist movements in Latin America.

Of course I wouldn't say trouble in the Middle East is a good thing, but it was something of a mixed blessing - the more rebels against the empire there are, even if they're not "your kind" of rebels - the less the empire is able to oppress all of you.

[OneNamedNameLess]

But in the last cease fire did hundreds of thousands of peasants not emigrate to FARC controlled territory?

Are you referring to the 2002 ceasefire? I belive there were hundreds of thousands of people in "Farclandia" but as for emigrating to the area I'm not sure.

What is interesting about this period is that the FARC implemented their own laws in this territory. Here's some articles on the topic:

http://www.slate.com/id/2060675/
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20040816/canby/2

Btw it's difficult not to find any non biased articles.

These days are lost for the FARC as they have been significantly weakened in recent years and have roughly half the guerrillas they had during this period. As a result they are forced to continue running and hiding and carrying out original, insufficient guerrilla attacks like this one.

[Red Rebel]

This is great news coming from FARC. 2008 was brutal to them. Now with Comrade Alfonso Cano as the new leader and with his "Plan Re-birth" hopefully they can turn their situation around.



The FARC are just as oppressive to countryside peasants as government-backed Paramilitaries are


What do you suggest they do differently?

[Andropov]

The instability of the job market often leads the unemployed and landless to either join the military or the FARC for the economic incentives, usually as casualties from the destructive violence.
What economic incentives is their in FARC controlled territory?

[Andropov]

Are you referring to the 2002 ceasefire? I belive there were hundreds of thousands of people in "Farclandia" but as for emigrating to the area I'm not sure.
I remember reading an article about hundreds of thousands of peasants that did emigrate to FARC controlled territory in the last cease fire.
Ill try and have a root around and find that article.
I found it interesting because it did highlight that FARC did have some impressive support in the peasants of Colombia.

[NecroCommie]

Fuck yeah! We don't care if they have virtually no support from the working class as long as they kill a few Colombian soldiers and further alienate the workers they claim to be fighting for!
I agree! I think the FARC should just dump all guns in the jungle, let Uribe run free, and register users on RevLeft. Reforms are always welcome.

[Communist Theory]

Fuck (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingrid_Washinawatok) FARC they are just a bunch of murdering thugs.
http://www.aimovement.org/moipr/Ali-statementoct00.html

[manic expression]

Fuck (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingrid_Washinawatok) FARC they are just a bunch of murdering thugs.
http://www.aimovement.org/moipr/Ali-statementoct00.html

Communist Theory, I can understand why you'd be upset at such a tragedy. However, let's look at what happened. Instead of trying to cover it up, FARC recognized the atrocity on their own accord. If the complaint is that FARC hasn't given up those responsible to the Colombian or American governments, that is simply absurd, as FARC has no reason to recognize either one as more legitimate entities or as arbiters of justice in South America. FARC did not try to whitewash anything, they simply don't want to set the precedent that any wrongdoing should privilege the Colombian state with sovereignty over FARC's soldiers. It would be like a lot like expecting the French Resistance to hand over its operatives to the Vichy collaborators every time a non-combatant was killed.

By the way, to be perfectly honest, pointing fingers at FARC as "Indian killers" borders on comical*. I don't recall FARC soldiers at Wounded Knee or Sand Creek or the thousand other times American soldiers mass murdered American Indians. Hell, many of FARC's soldiers probably have a considerable amount of American Indian ancestry themselves.

Truly, if the argument against FARC is that they aren't perfect, I'd like to remind my esteemed colleagues that they ARE fighting a bitter war against a ruthless and horrific imperialist crony state. If you don't think you could do it better, please refrain from condemnations.

*although since he is the husband of a wife who was senselessly slain, I think we can understand such indignant statements.

[manic expression]

Duplicate.

[Red Rebel]

Fuck (http://www.anonym.to/?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingrid_Washinawatok) FARC they are just a bunch of murdering thugs.
(http://www.anonym.to/?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingrid_Washinawatok)http://www.aimovement.org/moipr/Ali-statementoct00.html (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.aimovement.org/moipr/Ali-statementoct00.html)
(http://www.anonym.to/?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingrid_Washinawatok)

manic expression gave a good response, but I'd like to add/expand on one point. You brought up one death that FARC admitted to doing, yet how many innocent people has the Colombian government, paramilitaries and drug cartels killed?

[Communist Theory]

manic expression gave a good response, but I'd like to add/expand on one point. You brought up one death that FARC admitted to doing, yet how many innocent people has the Colombian government, paramilitaries and drug cartels killed?
Fuck you! I knew that women she was from my tribe and didn't deserve to be killed in cold blood by a couple of thugs with AKs claiming to be Marxist if they are so helpful to the locals why weren't they out helping the locals instead of murdering the Native Americans that came to help?

[manic expression]

Fuck you! I knew that women she was from my tribe and didn't deserve to be killed in cold blood by a couple of thugs with AKs claiming to be Marxist if they are so helpful to the locals why weren't they out helping the locals instead of murdering the Native Americans that came to help?

Communist Theory, we understand how such a tragedy would make you upset. I'm sorry for your tribe's loss.

However, I think you said it yourself when you said "a couple of thugs with AKs". It's unclear why this happened, but what is clear is that FARC initially didn't know about it, said they would look into it and then recognized the tragedy when they discovered the crime. This was a terrible breach in discipline, but holding FARC accountable is just unreasonable. What else can they do? Send the guilty party to Bogota or Guantanamo Bay for a kangaroo trial? No one's saying she deserved to be murdered, we're saying it was a terrible mistake that FARC genuinely held itself accountable for. Considering the circumstances, FARC went above and beyond what usually happens in wartime.

And on Red Rebel's post, it's quite valid. What of the thousands of innocents murdered by the Colombian Army to pad their "rebel kill" statistics? What of the murdered unionists? No one is excusing the crime done by those few FARC soldiers, but FARC's response to this murder and Uribe's response to countless murders could not be more different. It is difficult to imagine the Colombian military responding in such a forthcoming manner as FARC did here, and we have to imagine it because they don't.

Again, I'm very sorry for your tribe's loss. Those close to her have a right to be angry, but let's not lose our ability to make a clear-headed analysis of the situation.

[FreeFocus]

Communist Theory:

Your anger is understandable, and no one is defending their killing. Admittedly, I am no fan of the UN as a vehicle for advancing Native rights, but those who (misguidedly) choose to work within that framework don't deserve to be murdered, obviously.

Nonetheless, CT, the website you linked to is certainly not a very legitimate source. They lambasted FARC, calling them "Indian killers," (certainly the Colombian government has done more than that than FARC) but then turn around and call on the American government, the supreme "Indian killer," to cut ties to the Colombian government? Using the American government as a vehicle for social justice, especially as it relates to Natives, is foolish and naive. Moreover, the same is asked for of the business community. I mean, we're leftists, we don't even have to go into that.

AIM was somewhat revolutionary in the 1970s. Now, it's largely irrelevant.

[RedSonRising]

This is great news coming from FARC. 2008 was brutal to them. Now with Comrade Alfonso Cano as the new leader and with his "Plan Re-birth" hopefully they can turn their situation around.



What do you suggest they do differently?

I suggest that

- They stop "liberating" territories by assaulting villages and exploiting their labor and monopolizing coca exportation in the region
- They stop doing business with the drug cartels that have caused decades of violence in my country, as well as in the United States
- They seek the education, empowerment, and organization of the working class, much like the Zapatistas. There is a sharp contrast in the way both operate their controlled territories and defend themselves from the State. One is oppressive in their desperation for resources, the other democratic in their quest for autonomy.
- They stop hiring any desperate unemployed uneducated Colombian to kidnap some upper class citizen.
- They stop alienating the working class and giving revolutionary leftism a bad name among the non-aligned citizens of Colombia.
- They stop pointless violence and militarization of the countryside that in no way advances the revolutionary struggle of the working class, and stop giving the Colombian military reason to become a foothold for US imperialism and become even more reactionary and choke out labor unions and pin any leftist activity to their terrorist policies.

[Saorsa]

Ah yes, the old argument that the armed struggle waged by FARC somehow given the state an excuse and a reason to be repressive, something it would not ordinarily do. After all, the state only ever acts in a repressive manner in defensive response to actions by the workers and peasants, and is not inherently repressive in character. Yeesh...

The FARC are a response by the masses of Colombia to the crushing poverty, inequality and state oppression they face as part of their everyday lives, and is fighting for the revolutionary emancipation of the Colombian people from capitalism and imperialism, and for workers and peasant's power. They deserve our internationalist support, not sectarian condemnation, idealistic arguments that they should just lay down their arms and somehow trigger the immediate conversion of 99.9% of Colombians to revolutionary communism, and false and baseless slander accepted unquestioningly by supposed leftist from the mouths of the corporate media.

[RedSonRising]

The state would be oppressive regardless, yes, but an ultra-leftist group running around and forcing peasants to fund their organization doesn't help anybody. There is no corporate media that I accept without question. For God's sake, I'm a leftist, and have primary contact with revolutionaries who renounce the violence of the FARC that has displaced countless Colomians. But as a Colombian who has seen first hand the support for leftist ideals with a simultaneous near-universal condemnation of the FARC amongst these "masses" who you think have all risen to fight the state by narcotrafficking, I can say without hesitation that the FARC do not have popular support and that they are a stain on Colombia's popular struggle. They were once a popular mechanism for guerrilla activism, and have diminished to nothing more but a few idealistic leaders taking in displaced peasents who cannot find work and strangling their organization through oppression of the masses.

[manic expression]

RedSonRising, if you want to go the personal connections route, I can play that game from the other side to a small extent. From my (somewhat limited) experiences with someone who did see that struggle firsthand, I can't agree with your characterizations at all.

I think Castro's constructive criticisms of FARC are far more helpful and far more meaningful. He specified the taking of non-combatant hostages as counterproductive to revolutionary struggles, which I think is quite accurate. The point is he led a guerrilla force and has been a revolutionary leader to the Americas and the world for decades, and instead of condemning the entire group outright, he pinpoints what could be done better and why. I would like to see more of that on the left, to be honest.

[Communist Theory]

Fuck FARC.

[cyu]

I suggest that

- They stop "liberating" territories by assaulting villages and exploiting their labor and monopolizing coca exportation in the region
- They stop doing business with the drug cartels that have caused decades of violence in my country, as well as in the United States
- They seek the education, empowerment, and organization of the working class, much like the Zapatistas. There is a sharp contrast in the way both operate their controlled territories and defend themselves from the State. One is oppressive in their desperation for resources, the other democratic in their quest for autonomy.
- They stop hiring any desperate unemployed uneducated Colombian to kidnap some upper class citizen.
- They stop alienating the working class and giving revolutionary leftism a bad name among the non-aligned citizens of Colombia.
- They stop pointless violence and militarization of the countryside that in no way advances the revolutionary struggle of the working class, and stop giving the Colombian military reason to become a foothold for US imperialism and become even more reactionary and choke out labor unions and pin any leftist activity to their terrorist policies.



I suggest that

- They guard / protect any union members that go on strike, occupy their workplaces, or take over their companies.
- They help supply union members with weapons and the training to use them.
- They carry out their own investigations of the murders of union members (which Uribe's regime only pretends to do) and make the appropriate arrests.
- They protect anyone that wants to air a report in the mainstream media that the corporate execs refuse to air, by helping to escort those people into the halls of the major media outlets, and then protecting them while they put the stories on the air.

[mykittyhasaboner]

Fuck FARC.
Terrific analysis, you have truly enlightened the discussion.

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

Nice to hear the FARC is still up and running in Colombia!

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

Fuck FARC.
I sincerely hope this is meant sarcasticly.

[PRC-UTE]

I suggest that

- They stop "liberating" territories by assaulting villages and exploiting their labor and monopolizing coca exportation in the region
- They stop doing business with the drug cartels that have caused decades of violence in my country, as well as in the United States
- They seek the education, empowerment, and organization of the working class, much like the Zapatistas. There is a sharp contrast in the way both operate their controlled territories and defend themselves from the State. One is oppressive in their desperation for resources, the other democratic in their quest for autonomy.
- They stop hiring any desperate unemployed uneducated Colombian to kidnap some upper class citizen.
- They stop alienating the working class and giving revolutionary leftism a bad name among the non-aligned citizens of Colombia.
- They stop pointless violence and militarization of the countryside that in no way advances the revolutionary struggle of the working class, and stop giving the Colombian military reason to become a foothold for US imperialism and become even more reactionary and choke out labor unions and pin any leftist activity to their terrorist policies.

they actually tried to launch a political party and move away from the armed struggle. and they were slaughtered. their candidate for president was shot dead in broad daylight at the airport.

you have to look at the whole situation, and what they're up against: a ruling class that doesn't hesitate to unleash right wing deathsquads against working class people and especially union organisers.

[Red Rebel]

I suggest that

- They stop "liberating" territories by assaulting villages and exploiting their labor and monopolizing coca exportation in the region
- They stop doing business with the drug cartels that have caused decades of violence in my country, as well as in the United States
- They seek the education, empowerment, and organization of the working class, much like the Zapatistas. There is a sharp contrast in the way both operate their controlled territories and defend themselves from the State. One is oppressive in their desperation for resources, the other democratic in their quest for autonomy.
- They stop hiring any desperate unemployed uneducated Colombian to kidnap some upper class citizen.
- They stop alienating the working class and giving revolutionary leftism a bad name among the non-aligned citizens of Colombia.
- They stop pointless violence and militarization of the countryside that in no way advances the revolutionary struggle of the working class, and stop giving the Colombian military reason to become a foothold for US imperialism and become even more reactionary and choke out labor unions and pin any leftist activity to their terrorist policies.


Most are valid points which I will agree to; however, there are so major differences. Almost anything related to the druge trade is something that FARC needs to improve on. A problem with the Zapatistas is that what they are doing, doesn't work. The Zapatistas have sought education and organization of the community; however, they do not wish to seize state power with it and eventually the Mexican state will prevail over them. An armed struggle followed by the seizure of power is necessary (although anarchists on this site would probably disagree).

Kidnapping is useful tool, but FARC has over used it and it is not longer a viable weapon in the armed struggle. Desperate unemployed workers are also valuable to the urban movement but they should be "hired" out by FARC.

Alfonso Cano announced "Plan Re-birth" for FARC back in March of 2009 and one of the points in that was to increase the armed struggle in the urban areas. I'll agree that currently holding onto tracks of land in the jungles and mountains of Colombia is doing little to advance the working class in Colombia.

cyu's suggestions for FARC are also valid.

@Communist Theory, manic expression beat me to responding to your post. I'll just say I agree with what manic expression said (again).

[SocialismOrBarbarism]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hope,_Peace_and_Liberty

They kill comrades too.