USA Taxation

[Lamnont]

All workers here pay a 30% income tax! This is money they need to feed their family, that they worked hard for! Then the IRS comes and takes that money from them.

Even worse is that when they try to use the money left over, they are taxed another 30% when ever they try to purchase thing tyhe needs! Like food, homes, or cars!

They can't save their money, because it is devalued by inflation to the point that it might as well have been burned to save money on heating oil!



In the end 51% of an employee's paycheck goes to the government.
The government devoid of the ability to use that money in any way that would benefit the workers in any way the workers could not.

[SocialismOrBarbarism]

All workers here pay a 30% income tax! This is money they need to feed their family, that they worked hard for! Then the IRS comes and takes that money from them.

Even worse is that when they try to use the money left over, they are taxed another 30% when ever they try to purchase thing tyhe needs! Like food, homes, or cars!

They can't save their money, because it is devalued by inflation to the point that it might as well have been burned to save money on heating oil!



In the end 51% of an employee's paycheck goes to the government.
The government devoid of the ability to use that money in any way that would benefit the workers in any way the workers could not.

What workers are making so much money that they get taxed 30%? :confused: Perhaps "workers" that would be better suited teabagging instead of coming to a leftist forum?

[Nwoye]

the taxation system of the U.S does a wonderful job of keeping the poor poor, stealing the middle class' money, screwing small businesses out of operation and promoting corporate interests.

so i think we can all agree that income taxes and sales taxes and the like are generally negative institutions. however, what do you guys think of the land tax?

[GracchusBabeuf]

What do you think of the millions stolen by capitalists in the form of non-labor income?

Along with this, the capitalists also give loans to the workers to buy their houses, cars etc.

So, as the workers' real wages go down since the financialization of the economy, the capitalists have enjoyed higher profits due to lowering of wages and loans to workers.

These are the problems that should be answered by capitalism and its proponents.

...rather than fighting the income tax which comes back to the working class in the form of social security and other welfare measures.

In the end 51% of an employee's paycheck goes to the government.
The government devoid of the ability to use that money in any way that would benefit the workers in any way the workers could not.What do you think welfare does if not benefiting the working class? You seem to not think in terms of classes, instead you seem to imagine that the workers are isolated and atomic beings separate from society.

[Il Medico]

Take your right wing crap and go tea bag with the rest of the lunes. This is a forum for Leftist (aka people with half a brain). And I know of no working class person being taxed to death! The government seems to me to be the only ones not economically oppressing us! So piss off you gaudy fascist! :cursing:

[SocialismOrBarbarism]

The problem isn't that he's arguing against the government taxing us to death, the problem is that he doesn't realize that the capitalist class and the state are inseperable.


Take your right wing crap and go tea bag with the rest of the lunes. This is a forum for Leftist (aka people with half a brain). And I know of no working class person being taxed to death! The government seems to me to be the only ones not economically oppressing us! So piss off you gaudy fascist! :cursing:

This is just capitalist state apologetics. It appears that you've yet to realize the same thing.

An interesting thing I noticed when I was looking at US income statistics is that the amount that goes to the state is far greater than the amount that goes to corporations themselves. The important thing to realize is that this money is used to further the interests of the capitalist class.

[Il Medico]

The problem isn't that he's arguing against the government taxing us to death, the problem is that he doesn't realize that the capitalist class are inseperable.



This is just capitalist state apologetics. It appears that you've yet to realize the same thing.

An interesting thing I noticed when I was looking at US income statistics is that the amount that goes to the state is far greater than the amount that goes to corporations themselves. The important thing to realize is that this money is used to further the interests of the capitalist class.
I fully realize that. The government is just another branch of capitalism then the corporation. What I was truly angry about is that his argument is that of the upper middle class or petite bourgeois, for some one like them to claim that they are "workers" and thus shouldn't have to fund programs that help real workers, is ridiculous. He is obviously of this background and his claims of shared oppression on an equal scale, while his group are partly responsible for the working classes suffering, just angers me.

[JimmyJazz]

Take your right wing crap and go tea bag with the rest of the lunes. This is a forum for Leftist (aka people with half a brain). And I know of no working class person being taxed to death! The government seems to me to be the only ones not economically oppressing us! So piss off you gaudy fascist! :cursing:

Do you even have a clue what your tax money is used for? It's used to kill brown people, bail out capitalist banks, and to subsidize a whole range of capitalist interests. This is not a workers' state, it's not even a social democracy anymore (the New Deal has been pretty much entirely dismantled), and generally speaking, given the near total absence of social programs, taxation in this country is an upward transfer of wealth.

Really, try to take a serious analysis instead of feeding the right wing caricature of socialists by spouting off about how taxes = awesome.

That said, you are right and the OP is wrong about brackets, most workers pay either 15% or 25% in income tax. Then there is sales tax, which of course disproportionately affects the working class (which spends a greater portion of its income on consumable goods), and is always being raised.

[Die Neue Zeit]

As bad as the US taxation system is, the UK's is worse:

http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/768/letters.html

Comrade Mike Macnair’s recent article on income taxation poses a number of questions (‘Budget: spinning, not turning’, April 30 (http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/767/budgetspinning.html)).

Firstly, out of all the allegedly “progressive” income tax systems, Britain’s is the worst - even worse than the United States’, for not having enough tax brackets.

Secondly, there is a twofold cultural advantage for businesses to “distribute profits in the form of salary rather than dividend”. During the upswing, it allows most of the rest of the “waged” and “salaried” folks to identify with the corporate executives (especially those of smaller companies) as being part of the “middle class”. During the downswing, it allows the ruling class to make a comprehensive assault on wages and salaries, using the cover of austerity and bourgeois equality.

Thirdly, with regard to tax havens, I’m surprised that the nationalist notion of “tax sovereignty” wasn’t attacked more vigorously in the article and that an EU income tax scheme wasn’t raised. Furthermore, the Erfurt programme, unlike the ‘transitional’ economism of either the Comintern or Trotskyist variety, called for “annual voting of taxes”.

It said there should be “socio-income democracy through direct proposals and rejections, at the national level and above, regarding all tax rates on all types of income - such as regular and management employment income, individual property income such as interest, both individual and corporate business income, both individual and corporate dividend income, and both individual and corporate capital gains - annual votes which include the right to create or raise upper tax rates, alternative minimum tax rates, transfer pricing tax rates, and non-employment income gross-ups or multipliers”.

[cyu]

This is what my brother says (jokingly of course): "The plantation owner pays ALL the taxes - slaves are such freeloaders."

If employees had democratic control over the pay levels in their companies, then I would be fine with dispensing with income tax. As long as employees do not have democratic control over their company's payroll, then taxing the rich is vital - if you don't like income tax, maybe I'd settle for replacing it with a 100% capital gains tax.

[Nwoye]

That said, you are right and the OP is wrong about brackets, most workers pay either 15% or 25% in income tax. Then there is sales tax, which of course disproportionately affects the working class (which spends a greater portion of its income on consumable goods), and is always being raised.
and there's payroll taxes. and cost of living increases. and decreasing real wages. and real estate cycles. and inflation. and above natural price levels due to imperfect markets. and monopsonies in labor markets.

yeah guys, the middle and lower classes are being screwed, and it ain't just by the capitalists.

[Il Medico]

Do you even have a clue what your tax money is used for?
Yes actually, I am not saying that the government uses taxes correctly, you put words in my mouth. The government, being the most susceptible to overthrow has to give something back to the workers. The original argument was of the upper middle class not wanting to pay the extra tax levied on them because of their increased income. Much of these taxes will pay for the remaining social programs. For example, the only reason my grandmother had a place to live during her last years was because the government payed for her housing. Although this is not what they use most of the tax dollars for, it is what they cut first if the upper classes stop paying income tax, which the poor don't have to pay. The bourgeois did learn something from the french revolution unfortunately.


It's used to kill brown people, bail out capitalist banks, and to subsidize a whole range of capitalist interests. This is not a workers' state, it's not even a social democracy anymore (the New Deal has been pretty much entirely dismantled), and generally speaking, given the near total absence of social programs, taxation in this country is an upward transfer of wealth.You are correct, I am not arguing that. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer in capitalist America, as the old saying goes.


Really, try to take a serious analysis instead of feeding the right wing caricature of socialists by spouting off about how taxes = awesome. Once again you are putting words in my mouth. I never said taxes = awesome. However, that said, you can not rule out taxation as a method of more evenly distributing wealth on the road to a communist society. Once reached of course taxes will be unnecessary.


That said, you are right and the OP is wrong about brackets, most workers pay either 15% or 25% in income tax.Thank you for admitting that.

Then there is sales tax, which of course disproportionately affects the working class (which spends a greater portion of its income on consumable goods), and is always being raised.Yes, sales tax does disproportionately affect the working class as we are the primary buyers of consumable goods. However, the OP's arugment is the same one that almost got the "Fair Tax" passed a few years back. If that had passed I doubt workers like me could afford to buy a pack of Ramen.

[JimmyJazz]

and there's payroll taxes. and cost of living increases. and decreasing real wages. and real estate cycles. and inflation. and above natural price levels due to imperfect markets. and monopsonies in labor markets.

yeah guys, the middle and lower classes are being screwed, and it ain't just by the capitalists.

Right. And the government will bring out the national guard to shoot at workers if it thinks they are even starting to question the divine rights of private property, but then turn around and forcibly uproot working and middle class families from their homes in order to build a shopping mall using eminent domain.

Or they'll sign free trade agreements which in effect say that borders don't apply to anyone rich enough to bring a factory with them, while simultaneously clamping down on the border crossing of propertyless laborers. Capital can move in search of the cheapest possible labor, but humans cannot move in search of the highest-paying jobs.

There is hypocrisy at every turn if you have an eye for it. The myth is that the state is economically neutral, but the proof is abundant that it is just "a committee for managing the common affairs of the whole bourgeoisie."

Which is why any idea about achieving socialism gradually and through this state, rather than by its forcible overthrow and complete replacement, is reformist nonsense.

[PRC-UTE]

[Reich-wing whining about taxes moved to OI]

[RGacky3]

All workers here pay a 30% income tax! This is money they need to feed their family, that they worked hard for! Then the IRS comes and takes that money from them.

Even worse is that when they try to use the money left over, they are taxed another 30% when ever they try to purchase thing tyhe needs! Like food, homes, or cars!

They can't save their money, because it is devalued by inflation to the point that it might as well have been burned to save money on heating oil!



In the end 51% of an employee's paycheck goes to the government.
The government devoid of the ability to use that money in any way that would benefit the workers in any way the workers could not.

Yeah I agree that sucks, but you know what sucks even more? the Boss taking probably around 75% or more of the value the worker produces for himself, thats a lot more than 30%.

(I'm not sure about the values, but in my line of work its more around 60% or 70%, but considering Im a "skilled" (stupid phrase) worker that does decently compared to the super oppressed, I'm assuming super oppressed workers have more around 90% of their value taken.) BTW, I know my percentage simply because my bosses charge my work per the hour to the clients, rather than my product, and they pay me a fraction of what they charge. When they are charging for the product its not so easy to figure out, but I'm guessing its even more drastic.

[Jazzratt]

Do you know what sucks more than tax? Being unemployed and recieving no welfare.

[RGacky3]

Do you know what sucks more than tax? Being unemployed and recieving no welfare.


Yup, that one wins.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Workers are taxed too much? That's obvious.

[NecroCommie]

As long as capitalism reigns, the short term intrests of the working class are to increase the taxation, and especially make it more progressive. This will help to tighten the income gap, although in the long run the entire monetary system must be abolished. The higher and more progressive tax, the better.

If taxation is big for you, imagine the billions that will be taxed from the rich. That is why the right wing is so anti-tax. Tax ultimately hurts more the rich than the poor.

I like our tax system. I only pay about 15%, but if one earns over 5000e per month here, he will pay almost 50% (forty something).

[eyedrop]

What has been happening here with the taxes are that the top tax bracket has been approaching the average yearly wage of 441670 Kr (68000$).

Source (http://www.nettavisen.no/okonomi/privat/article2543207.ece)

This in turn leads to more and more workers paying the top tax (44,8%) and proportionally paying a bigger share of the tax pie. Not to mention that taxlists (which are searchable on the net) show that noone of the fat cats are paying what they rightfully should pay in the second top tax bracket (56,8% of their income). Even worse is that most of the "income" of the rich doesn't come from from a wage but from other sources, dividends and such, which are much softer taxed. (Surprisingly enough) I've got no doubt that they tricking themself out of so much tax as they can there too, as the publicly revealed tax lists show that they do with their income. The taxes on the rest of their earnings are ofcourse hidden as showing them would reveal too much of the hypocrasy. Let's not go into businesses that have an "office" in a tax paradise, which grows if the government tries to majorly tax the rich. Which a red-green reformist government such as we have no will always be impaired by

Taxes are by and large paid by workers while the fat cats skimp away from them. It's easy to get pissed when most workers (me included) are paying a larger share of their income than the rich. Vat taxes also counts in and tilts the balance even more.

Don't direct your anger at paying taxes but rather at why the rich walk free of it.

[cyu]

the middle and lower classes are being screwed, and it ain't just by the capitalists

Who is doing the screwing then? "The government"? Who controls the government? If it's controlled by the middle and lower classes, then the middle and lower classes are not getting screwed. If it's controlled by the capitalists, then yes, they are being screwed, and they are still being screwed by capitalists, except from more directions than one.

Are you calling for cutting taxes to 0% for the middle and lower classes? If so, I'd support that. It's not like they have a lot to tax anyway. From http://www.revleft.com/vb/us-50-own-t108231/index.html?t=108231 - In the U.S. 10% own 71.5% of the wealth, while 50% own 2.5% of the wealth. How much can you really tax out of 2.5% anyway?

[FreeMan]

Take your right wing crap and go tea bag with the rest of the lunes. This is a forum for Leftist (aka people with half a brain). And I know of no working class person being taxed to death! The government seems to me to be the only ones not economically oppressing us! So piss off you gaudy fascist! :cursing:

Read the freakin forum title you freakign heart bleeding commie. Its called "opposing ideologies".

The onyl thing that is oppressing is your freakin ideology which results in nothign but destruction.

BTW it takes a real fool to be calling other people stupid just because they believe in a different ideology.

[FreeMan]

Do you know what sucks more than tax? Being unemployed and recieving no welfare.

Yes, that sounds like a terrible situation.

But being in need or suffering does not entitle a man to anything of value.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Of course, when talking about the poor and taxation, it isn't the income tax which hurts them - it's the "fair, flat" taxes those on the Right cherish so much: sales, tobacco, fireworks, alcohol, registration, property.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Yes, that sounds like a terrible situation.

But being in need or suffering does not entitle a man to anything of value.

It entitles him to an equal voice.

[Nwoye]

Of course, when talking about the poor and taxation, it isn't the income tax which hurts them - it's the "fair, flat" taxes those on the Right cherish so much: sales, tobacco, fireworks, alcohol, registration, property.
that's true, but i think the income tax does have a very negative effect on small business owners.

[Il Medico]

Read the freakin forum title you freakign heart bleeding commie. Its called "opposing ideologies".
Yes on a leftist forum. For leftist, OI is mainly for us to debunk your ridiculous arguments. Also, heart bleeding? Don't you mean bleeding heart? Wow, cappies can't even get their own insults right!:lol:


The onyl thing that is oppressing is your freakin ideology which results in nothign but destruction.Yes, because the greed driven megalomania of capitalism only helps people and "liberates" them from their democratically elected leaders. :rolleyes:



BTW it takes a real fool to be calling other people stupid just because they believe in a different ideology.Well, I am glad that capitalism is so enlightened that the people who make the judgment on who is a fool can spell so well. :rolleyes:

[RGacky3]

Yes, that sounds like a terrible situation.

But being in need or suffering does not entitle a man to anything of value.

Fair enough, but if a revolution happens, so-called "property rights" don't entitle a man to anything either.


BTW it takes a real fool to be calling other people stupid just because they believe in a different ideology.

I don't believe he called you stupid because you believe in a different ideology, I think he called you stupid for your lack of reasoning ability.


Read the freakin forum title you freakign heart bleeding commie.

And how much a Capitalist heart bleeds when property laws are "violated".

[FreeMan]

It entitles him to an equal voice.


Ofcourse it does. I never said he shouldn't have free speech. He can beg and ask for help all he wants.

[FreeMan]

Yes on a leftist forum. For leftist, OI is mainly for us to debunk your ridiculous arguments. Also, heart bleeding? Don't you mean bleeding heart? Wow, cappies can't even get their own insults right!:lol:



I am sorry, but in order for you to have a valid argument it needs to be supported by facts. But how can you ever back up your argument with facts if there is almost no evidence that your ideology even works? The truth is that you can't debunk anything.




Yes, because the greed driven megalomania of capitalism only helps people and "liberates" them from their democratically elected leaders. :rolleyes:Capitalism helps people who help themselves.

To be free is to be free from our fellow brothers including their whims and their 'needs'. Because only our fellow brothers can take away our freedom.



Well, I am glad that capitalism is so enlightened that the people who make the judgment on who is a fool can spell so well. Capitalism is more then enlightenment. Almost all the food, cloths, wealth, money and almost all the products you ever had are made possible though capitalism. Your ideology is crap, destruction is its only result.

[FreeMan]

Fair enough, but if a revolution happens, so-called "property rights" don't entitle a man to anything either.

Men are entitle to protect that which they own.




And how much a Capitalist heart bleeds when property laws are "violated".


Everyone suffers when you take away the means of production from the capitlist.

Examples

Chavez seized the oil fields in his country. Now he can't produce any oil because he owes hundreds of millions in money so he can't contract anyone to produce it.

Fidel sized all the farm land in Cuba. Now Cuba can't even produce enough food to feed themselves.

Obama is taking control of GM and the US Banks. Now this US Banks and GM are still failing.

[MikeSC]

Ownership = Freedom is completely backward. With no deity to assign ownership, no person has a legitimate claim of ownership to anything material above other that the other people have. But does the state care about legitimacy? Obviously not, all private ownership is the result of seizure by the state.

To call taxation an injustice is laughable. If you concede that the state has the right to sieze what it wants just because it can and assign it how it pleases, which if you support private property you must do, then how can you cry "immoral" when it siezes a portion of what it siezed to get it into your hands?

[Bud Struggle]

Ownership = Freedom is completely backward. With no deity to assign ownership, no person has a legitimate claim of ownership to anything material above other that the other people have. But does the state care about legitimacy? Obviously not, all private ownership is the result of seizure by the state.


The charm of not having a deity is that everything is legitimate. Who is to say you have the same rights as me. After all I am ME and you are only you. ;)

Without a diety all rights are arbitrary. As is all authority. Without a diety might means right and always has. The only thing that's been accomplished over the last 10,000 years of human history is that by common consent and much fighting and bloodshed might is slightly less concentrated in a few hands.

That's all we've accomplished so far. Communism is an effort to spread the might more fairly--but there's no assurance it will ever succeed. The attempts by Communists to spread power in the past have been rather mixed at best.

But it's worth a shot.

[MikeSC]

The charm of not having a deity is that everything is legitimate. Who is to say you have the same rights as me. After all I am ME and you are only you. ;)

Without a diety all rights are arbitrary. As is all authority. Without a diety might means right and always has. The only thing that's been accomplished over the last 10,000 years of human history is that by common consent and much fighting and bloodshed might is slightly less concentrated in a few hands.

That's all we've accomplished so far. Communism is an effort to spread the might more fairly--but there's no assurance it will ever succeed. The attempts by Communists to spread power in the past have been rather mixed at best.

But it's worth a shot.

I agree, you can say that about anything though and there's not much anyone can say. No one's wrong, whatever is should be because... why not?

But if we're talking in the realm of "a person shouldn't impose on another person without permission"- human rights and all that, the kind of thing people mean when they say "taxation is immoral"- private property is the imposition rather than the taxation, it's the denial of rights to some but not others, and so on.

Maybe it is in the long term interests of the Left to go for a laissez-faire, tax-less, inactive state (it wouldn't be stateless if there was still private property), presuming the lack of rules and regulations would extend to trade unions and labour organisations? If they got powerful enough to really threaten the capitalists, would the capitalists then ressurect the state? Or would people turn on the unions for disrupting our first-world lifestyles first?

I don't know- it wouldn't be good in the short term, for sure. Lots of people rely on the things paid for with tax money.

[RGacky3]

Men are entitle to protect that which they own.


Who says they own what they own? They do, which does'nt matter, the only thing that does matter is that the STATE does, aha.


Chavez seized the oil fields in his country. Now he can't produce any oil because he owes hundreds of millions in money so he can't contract anyone to produce it.

Fidel sized all the farm land in Cuba. Now Cuba can't even produce enough food to feed themselves.


The examples you gave are of state takeovers, which we can discuss as well. But your forgeting worker take overs, in which the benefactors, are ... the workers. Take the Zapatista territories, the indians took back thier farmland, and guess who benefited? The indians, guess who did'nt, the rancheros.


Without a diety all rights are arbitrary. As is all authority. Without a diety might means right and always has. The only thing that's been accomplished over the last 10,000 years of human history is that by common consent and much fighting and bloodshed might is slightly less concentrated in a few hands.

Thats true but one could argue that if you claim morality, you must be consistant with it, if you want to claim it and be honest (and everyone claims morality, whether or not they agree with.)

[Rosa Provokateur]

What workers are making so much money that they get taxed 30%? :confused: Perhaps "workers" that would be better suited teabagging instead of coming to a leftist forum?

Depends, is the guy I get to tea-bag cute?

[Dust Bunnies]

I am sorry, but in order for you to have a valid argument it needs to be supported by facts. But how can you ever back up your argument with facts if there is almost no evidence that your ideology even works? The truth is that you can't debunk anything.


Capitalism helps people who help themselves.

To be free is to be free from our fellow brothers including their whims and their 'needs'. Because only our fellow brothers can take away our freedom.

Capitalism is more then enlightenment. Almost all the food, cloths, wealth, money and almost all the products you ever had are made possible though capitalism. Your ideology is crap, destruction is its only result.


You say our idealology doesn't work? So please tell me, is market crashes and downturns a feature of a system? Capitalism has been shown every 10-20 years not to work, if you get a car you want the car to run smoothly nearly all the time, not have a big 1-10 year period where you don't know if the car will still start up or if it will blow up in your face.

Capitalism helps people who help themselves? So I guess now with the unemployment rate rising those people who are unemployed are a bunch of lazy, uncreative fools? You need to remember it was not your average, laid off worker that caused this, it was the so called "self helping, creative" people that got us into this.

Destruction is the only result? While the USSR was not Communist or Socialist, it is better than Capitalist Russia, even in Poland, a Catholic Nun I know said to me when I asked about economic conditions now VS EU she said, that the economic conditions were much better for the poor under Soviet rule.