European elections: No2EU -Yes to Democracy

[Panda Tse Tung]

I'm not a Brit. But due to a discussion in the livechat channel about what Brits should be voting i was scrolling around the party-list of the UK. And i found the best party besides a Communist one that could possibly participate in European elections. "No2EU -Yes to Democracy".

http://www.no2eu.com/

Their 4 main points:
"Defending workers rights"
"Defending public services"
"No to the Lisbon treaty"
and most importantly:
"They refuse to take seat in the European Parliament and legitimize the farce called the EU".

I thought I'd mention this since a UK communist mentioned voting for the 'Greens'. And seriously, this is a way better alternative.

[h0m0revolutionary]

They're awful, i'd rather vote Green. At least you know your getting shitty middle-class idiots with them, unlike no2eu where you get nationalists pretending to be left.

[h0m0revolutionary]

The NO2EU 'coalition' is a loose gathering of Stalinists (from the CPB, RMT etc) that has for reasons that are beyond me managed to attract some tailing Trotskyists =/

http://no2eu.com/ (http://www.anonym.to/?http://no2eu.com/)
I
urge everyone to actually go read some of the reactionary, right-wing garbage being carefully dressed up as left-wing policies.

They denounce the "so called 'free movement' of labour" within the EU and continue with an outcry against the "social dumping of exploited foreign workers in Britain". This is completely nationalist - a really sad attempt at the left to build on popularism and quasi-nationalism in a time of crisis, where we should be smashing rallying cries of nationalism, not echoing them!

Neil Cafferky, Socialist Party has said that the SP have 'reservations' about NO2EU, but are uncritical and every demo the SP have shown up to since late March they have been handing out NO2EU leaflets (including at an anti-deportation demo in Manchester without any irony!) - ok so they don't want to deport European migrants, but to restrict their freedom of movement? What on earth is left-wing here?

Ironically in the North West, where the BNP stands the best chance of being elected, the NO2EU vote will do nothing more than detract from the Green vote, this infact will be the story all across the country and it's so sad to say this against a self-proclaimed left group, but NO2EU is to the right of the Green Party. The Green party might be pissy cross-class liberals but at least the Green Party don't want to limit the right of Europeans to cross through borders and nations. I'm so glad the rest of the British left and indeed some Socialst Party comrades have woken up to realise what a thoroughly nationalist campaign they've put their names to.

Of course I don't appluad anyone voting Green, i'm an anarchist in fact, I wouldn't aplaud voting anyone, but any alternative to the BNP, Labour or any other anti-working class parties must be in the form of real class politics. How can NO2EU persuade people not to vote Green if the only policy difference of any significant note is that NO2EU resorts to chauvenism and something little short of an anti-immigration rant!

And lets have a brief skim of other policies:
- The platform opposes “EU directives that privatise our public services", but say nothing of domestic privatisation of services such as our Royal Mail, Private Finance Initiative in our hospitals etc
- They say nothing about the actual working class, where is their opposition to capialism? Where is their opposition to the anti-Union laws that impede our ability to organise?
- They oppose "EU Militarism" but say nothing of troops home now, nothing about the decimation of Iraq, Afghanistan

We owe it to our class to link all these struggles together - the weapon with which we must do so is anti-capitalism! We can't hide that we oppose capitalism, not for the sake of getting a few votes taken away from nationalists. And we certainly shouldn't pursue elections under the guise of being a macho-nationalist, with vague internationalist sentiments added as an afterthought to keep genuine leftists on board.

Opposition to the freedom of movement throughout the EU for all EU citizens? What?!?!

[Panda Tse Tung]

Where are you basing the supposed 'fact' that their nationalist on?
On their opposition to the EU? Any sane leftist opposes the anti-democratic bloated bureaucracy there.
And even if you don't agree with their other points (which would be weird), they still refuse to take seat. Since the European parliament doesn't have an anus to say, they recognize this so they refuse to participate in this joke called the European Parliament.

edit:


They denounce the "so called 'free movement' of labour" within the EU and continue with an outcry against the "social dumping of exploited foreign workers in Britain". This is completely nationalist - a really sad attempt at the left to build on popularism and quasi-nationalism in a time of crisis, where we should be smashing rallying cries of nationalism, not echoing them!No, read their text on it:
http://www.no2eu.com/workersrights.html

After reading this, and you still disagree with them then you don't understand the EU. Nor the laws it has been passing in the past 10 years.


Neil Cafferky, Socialist Party has said that the SP have 'reservations' about NO2EU, but are uncritical and every demo the SP have shown up to since late March they have been handing out NO2EU leaflets (including at an anti-deportation demo in Manchester without any irony!) - ok so they don't want to deport European migrants, but to restrict their freedom of movement? What on earth is left-wing here?Polish people working for Polish wages and under Polish working conditions in countries of Western Europe is seriously undermining the workers struggle of the proletariat there. This is the reason the EU is allowing for this, and this is if you read their text what they are saying.


Ironically in the North West, where the BNP stands the best chance of being elected, the NO2EU vote will do nothing more than detract from the Green vote,Thats an argument the bourgeouisie often uses not to vote for smaller radical parties. It's the same arguments the Democrats use in the US and which is used by the bourgeouis 'left' everywhere. Unfortunately by allowing this argument to take a hold, your allowing these institutionalized parties to continue what they have been doing for years. Nothing.


- The platform opposes “EU directives that privatise our public services", but say nothing of domestic privatisation of services such as our Royal Mail, Private Finance Initiative in our hospitals etcyes, it's the European elections.

[teenagebricks]

I think NO2EU are touting themselves as too much of a BNP alternative, sort of a UKIP for people who are not completely nationalist. I'd never vote Green though, I'd sooner vote Labour, at least they have some socialist influence, albeit a very small amount, but no, I'll be voting for SLP.

[Tower of Bebel]

Where are you basing the supposed 'fact' that their nationalist on?
There's some opposition (http://www.permanentrevolution.net/entry/2688) to the programme. I would like to hear some info from those involved (SPEW anyone?). Even if we agree with the claim that No2EU - Yes to Democracy is nationalist, should we oppose or support this new left project?

[ls]

My mind tells me that they are both pretty bad choices (you're voting for Bob Crow, a Stalinist after all) yet there's the looming threat of the BNP taking several offices in this too.

Also, I would imagine the amount of people that could vote for NO2EU based on its name alone is way underrated.

[h0m0revolutionary]

There's some opposition (http://www.permanentrevolution.net/entry/2688) to the programme. I would like to hear some info from those involved (SPEW anyone?).

see also: http://boffyblog.blogspot.com/2009/03/cancer-of-nationalism-in-workers.html

[Panda Tse Tung]

There's some opposition (http://www.permanentrevolution.net/entry/2688) to the programme. I would like to hear some info from those involved (SPEW anyone?). Even if we agree with the claim that No2EU - Yes to Democracy is nationalist, should we oppose or support this new left project?
I just read your link. And it's only complaining about how their not calling for full-blown Socialism. Which is pretty cute, but not realistic.



"No2EU, Yes to Democracy" - is deceptive because it implies that democracy is synonymous with not being part of the EU, and that Britain will be able to become a democracy "again" if it decides to withdrawWell, fact of the matter is national governments are often far more democratic then the EU will ever be.

edit:

There's no excuse for focusing exclusively on the EU and not drawing attention to the destructive policies of the Labour government.

Well, they are an exclusively EU-party. Unlike most other parties participating (besides the weird Libertarian one which seems to participate all over Europe)

[teenagebricks]

NO2EU are standing a Liberal Party councillor in one area, that should be reason enough not to trust them.

[BobKKKindle$]

I know why the SP would want to get involved in a campaign like this and they've certainly done a lot of good work with the RMT recently trying to stop the privatization of public transport and protect the rights of the RMT's members, but HR is right in pointing out that this initiative does have some rather nasty nationalist overtones, and that's partly why I and the other members of the SWP don't feel capable of giving it support, despite the urgent need for an alternative to New Labour and all the other bourgeois parties. The basic slogan of the entire campaign - "No2EU, Yes to Democracy" - is deceptive because it implies that democracy is synonymous with not being part of the EU, and that Britain will be able to become a democracy "again" if it decides to withdraw, whereas every leftist knows that Britain and every other capitalist country is a class dictatorship in which democracy is subverted by unacceptable inequalities of wealth and political influence, and that the only way to attain genuine democracy and allow each and every individual to participate in the way their society is governed is through an international socialist revolution, that will sweep away private property and establish popular control over the means of production and communication. The focus on the EU at the expense of more direct and obvious issues such as the capitalist system itself and the actions of the Labour government is a theme that runs throughout the whole of the campaign, as HR shows, and, most importantly, the campaign is not a product of pressure from below, organized by the rank and file - it's the result of the RMT bureaucracy making a deal with the SP and their old friends in the CPB, which, as supporters of self-emancipation, is not an approach that any leftist should condone or pursue.

I probably won't vote.


yes, it's the European elections. I don't know how things work in your country, but in the UK, EU elections are frequently seen as a way for the governing party to test their level of support, and so all of the parties who stand campaign on national issues as well as their approach to the EU. Even if this weren't the case, and EU elections were concerned solely with EU issues, there's no reason to accept this as a good thing - the point of socialists getting involved in broad campaigns like StWC is so we can introduce progressive arguments which might not otherwise be made if bureaucratic forces like Stalinist parties were allowed to retain control.



Thats an argument the bourgeouisie often uses not to vote for smaller radical parties. That's not the point HR is making and you know it. The point is that because No2EU involves nationalist rhetoric and does not identify New Labour as the most aggressive proponent of neo-liberalism and attacks on democracy it does not offer anything meaningful or new to the disorientated workers who are currently turning towards nationalist parties like the BNP and UKIP. The real way to challenge fascism is to offer a progressive and working-class alternative and that's not what No2EU is doing - in fact, by legitimizing nationalism and border controls it's giving the BNP even more credibility.



Polish people working for Polish wages and under Polish working conditions in countries of Western Europe is seriously undermining the workers struggle of the proletariat there. This is the reason the EU is allowing for this, and this is if you read their text what they are saying. The solution to migrant workers being made to endure poor working conditions and low pay, and being used to put downwards pressure on the rights of other workers is not to ask a bourgeois institution like the British state to enforce border controls - instead, it's to organize migrant workers so that they can demand the same rights as workers who have British citizenship, and fight for economic gains as part of a united movement that involves workers of every nationality and ethnic group. That's why the SWP was opposed to the Lindsey strikes - we recognized that the workers who were involved were demanding the re-distribution of jobs from migrant workers to British workers (hence the slogan "British Jobs for British Workers") and by doing so had identified migrant workers as the problem, whereas what they should have been doing was calling for an increase in the number of jobs so that all workers would be entitled to stable employment, and the employers would not be able to use the threat of unemployment as a way of attacking the working class.

[Sam_b]

and that's partly why I and the other members of the SWP don't feel capable of giving it support,

I believe that the SWP in Scotland are giving it partial support, but I could be wrong. If anyone's interested Tommy Sheridan will be standing on this ticket in Scotland.

I forgot about the Euro election and haven't got a proxy vote sorted, so even if I wanted to I couldn't vote for them.

[Tower of Bebel]

yes, it's the European elections.That's not the point. The point is that the European Union is used as a scapegoat. Yet, since when it capitalist Britain an alternative to European imperialism? HomoRevolutionary didn't write that the platform didn't mention anything about Great Britain. He meant to explain that the platform refuses to address the anti-working class politics of capitalist Great Britain (e.g. "domestic privatisation of services such as our Royal Mail, Private Finance Initiative in our hospitals etc").

[BobKKKindle$]

I believe that the SWP in Scotland are giving it partial support, but I could be wrong. If anyone's interested Tommy Sheridan will be standing on this ticket in Scotland.You might be right, I'm not sure if the party in England has actually issued a statement saying whether they support it or not, or whether members should vote for it, but in my conversations with other comrades we've all agreed that it's got some positive aspects such as wanting to stop the BNP but is generally a very bad approach due to its nationalist overtones and failure to condemn New Labour as well as the EU, not to mention its liberal conception of democracy.

[bellyscratch]

Just a reminder that you can still register to vote until 19th May. Go to www.aboutmyvote.co.uk (http://www.aboutmyvote.co.uk) for more info.


I never knew Bob Crow was a Stalinst... I thought he was a reformist :confused:
(EDIT: Just looked at his Wikipedia and it seems like he is on the more 'authoritarian left' and supports capital punishment)


I'm pretty sure I'm going to vote No2EU anyway... as I really don't to vote for any of the 3 major parties and I only want to vote Green if they're standing someone who is in the Green Left (and I'm pretty sure they're not). And I want to use my vote just to try keep the BNP out, so I don't see any other decent choices.

Voting depresses me though because I only ever seem to vote against other parties than actually voting for someone I want :(

[communard resolution]

I don't see any other decent choices.

Voting depresses me though because I only ever seem to vote against other parties than actually voting for someone I want :(

If you absolutely must vote, vote Socialist Party of Great Britain (http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/).

They are "contesting in London, but urging write-in votes elsewhere". Not sure how it works with the write-in votes, but perhaps you do.

SayNo2no2EU.

[bellyscratch]

If you absolutely must vote, vote Socialist Party of Great Britain (http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/).

They are "contesting in London, but urging write-in votes elsewhere". Not sure how it works with the write-in votes, but perhaps you do.

SayNo2no2EU.

No thanks. I'd rather vote for No2EU. I'm not saying its not got faults, because it definatley has, but I think it could be the start of a realignment of parties on the left. I'm just waiting to see what happens after the elections.

[Holden Caulfield]

You might be right, I'm not sure if the party in England has actually issued a statement saying whether they support it or not, or whether members should vote for it, but in my conversations with other comrades we've all agreed that it's got some positive aspects such as wanting to stop the BNP but is generally a very bad approach due to its nationalist overtones and failure to condemn New Labour as well as the EU, not to mention its liberal conception of democracy.

Don't know about the national party line but the Newcastle lot seem to be pushing the to vote for the Greens, with some kind of middle class lesser evilism about the whole affair. No2EU isn't perfect or fully socialist so why not vote for some openly capitalist environmentalists, come on vanguard of the working class throw your organic soy beans at them, huzzar!

[bellyscratch]

Don't know about the national party line but the Newcastle lot seem to be pushing the to vote for the Greens, with some kind of middle class lesser evilism about the whole affair. No2EU isn't perfect or fully socialist so why not vote for some openly capitalist environmentalists, come on vanguard of the working class throw your organic soy beans at them, huzzar!

I think the reason they're pushing for the Greens is because of them not being offered a part in No2EU. To be honest, if No2EU wasn't running, I'd probably vote Green too.

[communard resolution]

Good luck with your broad coalition of socialism-in-one-country Stalinites and 'democratic' left nationalists. The one thing that stuns me is how some of the most vocal anti-fascists of this board can support a group with such a dodgy programme - and it's quite disappointing too.

[Pogue]

I'm torn. Theres sme worrying stuff but I don't know to what extent tis beign exaggerated. I don't think they are nationalists masquerading as socialists though.

[Killfacer]

I'm torn. Theres sme worrying stuff but I don't know to what extent tis beign exaggerated. I don't think they are nationalists masquerading as socialists though.

They aren't nationalists but that kind of makes their opportunistic nationalism worse. They think they can score some cheap votes.

[communard resolution]

They aren't nationalists but that kind of makes their opportunistic nationalism worse. They think they can score some cheap votes.

Yes, I think a large section of them have this opportunistic approach - "fight the BNP's overt nationalism with subtle between-the-lines-nationalism". Others are just old Stalinists who peddle good old 'official communism'. And then there's some who tail them for apparent lack of alternatives or because they toe their respective party line - they probably mean well, but I think they are being used.

[Yazman]

Ah "NO2EU."

I can't support them, seriously. Their platform is way too supportive of the nation-state, particularly the british nation-state.

The funniest thing about their name is the whole "yes to democracy" thing - WHAT DEMOCRACY? If they're talking about the current system, well, I have to laugh at that being called "democratic."

Side note: Aren't they going to immediately resign if elected? Doesn't this also mean they will be eventually replaced in the parliament ANYWAY?

[Killfacer]

It's frustrating though. I feel there may well be a need for a party of this sort in order to combat the BNP. However, they have gone about it in completely the wrong way. I've said in the anti-fa thread countless times that i think they're campaigning on the wrong subject. They seem to be of the mistaken beleif that the only way to get a lot of votes is to appeal to people's nationalism.

[communard resolution]

They seem to be of the mistaken beleif that the only way to get a lot of votes is to appeal to people's nationalism.

I imagine that's what some of them had in mind, yeah. But when at the same time socialists are being won over to nationalist positions then the question is: who's fooling who?

[h0m0revolutionary]

They seem to be of the mistaken beleif that the only way to get a lot of votes is to appeal to people's nationalism.

Yeah true, but I think it's more worrying than that. Of course their aim is left-wing, insofar as they genuinely want to impede the BNP getting a seat. But to echo the sentiments of the BNP and indeed UKIP on immigration and Europe under the guise of being left-wing does nothing to change consciousness of the working class, they are legitimising nationalism and anti-immigrat views.

We oppose Europe because of what it is - an attempt to isolate European capital in and around Europe to build up the region as an imperialist power and an organ designed primarily to supercede member states and hasten domestic privitisation, but NO2EU's criticism rests on the protection of British jobs, British capital and soveriegnty - This is blood and soil nationalism. Thankfully many NO2EU comrades are already seeing what a sham this project is, and after the election I hope those comrades go back to their respective orginisations and give them what for.

[Matty_UK]

Yeah true, but I think it's more worrying than that. Of course their aim is left-wing, insofar as they genuinely want to impede the BNP getting a seat. But to echo the sentiments of the BNP and indeed UKIP on immigration and Europe under the guise of being left-wing does nothing to change consciousness of the working class, they are legitimising nationalism and anti-immigrat views.

We oppose Europe because of what it is - an attempt to isolate European capital in and around Europe to build up the region as an imperialist power and an organ designed primarily to supercede member states and hasten domestic privitisation, but NO2EU's criticism rests on the protection of British jobs, British capital and soveriegnty - This is blood and soil nationalism. Thankfully many NO2EU comrades are already seeing what a sham this project is, and after the election I hope those comrades go back to their respective orginisations and give them what for.

But how do you go about opposing the EU? How no2eu go about campaigning is fairly irrelevant, because they aren't going to take a seat if they're elected and simply want to sabotage the EU project to institutionalise neoliberalism. They are an electoral platform, not a political party.

Also, you aren't going to "change the consciousness of the working class"-it's something difficult for communists to square with their opposition to racism, nationalism, and chauvinism but it is true that moving jobs abroad and exploiting cheap foreign labour is an attempt to undercut wages. The working class recognise this, and to deny that they have any valid concerns is totally the wrong way of building a working class movement. The Socialist Party's actions at the Lindsey refinery strikes was a good example of how to approach this problem - they supported the strike which did contain some xenophobic tendencies in the beginning but after engaging in dialogue with the workers they won the debate, pinning the blame not on the Italian workers but where it should be, on the EU and on the bosses, and there was even a good degree of solidarity built between the Italian workers and the local workers.

Right wing tabloid-populism is based on taking concerns of the working class and directing the blame to areas that are counter-productive to solving these concerns by disrupting class solidarity. The left has reacted in a shallow knee-jerk way by denying that these concerns are real, which simply drives a wedge between them and the working class mainstream who won't take them seriously. Engaging with these concerns and directing the blame to the right areas is ultimately the only way to build solidarity. no2eu seem to be doing this, and I have good hopes that this could be a good strategy of revitalising the left.

Communists must never have seperate policies to the working class - they must articulate working class grievances back to them in an effective informed way rather than trying to "change their consciousness" which is an idealist rather than a Marxist attitude.

[Wanted Man]

I think this is pretty clear:


We want to see a Europe of independent, democratic states that value its public services and does not offer them to profiteers; a Europe that guarantees the rights of workers and does not put the interests of big business above that of ordinary people. We believe the current structures of the EU makes this impossible.If I had a choice like that over here, maybe I'd get off my ass and vote. Nobody is saying that this is some kind of "revolutionary vote" (whatever that is). It's more or less aimed at defending the few remaining gains of decades of class struggle (which have been chipped away at for a long time, but will simply be bulldozed altogether if no resistance is offered to the EU at all).

The criticism that they are unfairly "singling out" the EU (and everything else as "democratic") is kind of pointless here, as they are also not promoting atlanticism, isolationism, nationalism, or any other right-wing "alternatives" to the EU.


If you absolutely must vote, vote Socialist Party of Great Britain (http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/).
No offense, but why the hell would anyone want to do that?