when I was in Russia...

[Vincent]

Recently I was in St. Petersburg, Russia, and walking along Nevsky Prospect I noticed a group of elderly ladies, with Soviet flags. They seemed to be protesting, almost, against the society in which they lived in. A friend, who grew up in Estonia, told me that they were probably very happy happy in Soviet-era Russia, and life had probably gone down hill since.

This example suggests to me a history which isn't widely known to Westerners, which tells of happiness in Soviet Russia, and oppression in modern Russia.

As far as history goes, how does my little example fit in to the history of Soviet Russia? Would this be a common story for Russians?

[Invariance]

Unfortunately it probably would be. Living standards dropped tremendously after the overthrow. The fight between economists who, on one side wanted rapid capitalistic transformation against those who wanted a slow institutional change, was won by the former group. Even former Chief Economist and Vice President of the World Bank, Joseph Stiglitz said: 'These economists typically had little knowledge of the history or details of the Rusian economy and didn't believe they needed any. The great strength, and the ultimate weakness, of the economic doctrines on which they relied is that the doctrines are - or are supposed to be - universal. Institutions, history or even the distribution of income simply do not matter. Good economists know the universal truths and can look beyond the array of facts and details that obscure these truths.' And later: 'The rapid privatisation urged upon Moscow by the IMF and the US Treasury Department had allowed a small group of oligarchs to gain control of state assets...While the government lacked the money to pay pensioners, the oligarchs were sending money obtained by stripping assets and selling the country's national resources into Cypriot and Swiss bank accounts.'

[mykittyhasaboner]

Yeah well Russians never had to worry about hyper inflation, drastic wealth inequality, unemployment, and Neo-Nazi gangs when it was still the Soviet Union. So I can imagine nostalgia runs high among some.

[LOLseph Stalin]

Protests of this sort seem to be common in modern Russia as conditions are poor. Most of all these elderly ladies has seen in Russia is Socialism so these new conditions in Russia wouldn't be up to their standards. If anybody knows about Socialism it would be them, not western propagandists as they have no idea what it would have been like. They just believe what they've told from secondary sources. So if conditions are so bad in Socialist states then we wouldn't have little old ladies protesting. Shows what right-wingers know.

[gorillafuck]

Unfortunately it probably would be. Living standards dropped tremendously after the overthrow.
I think you're probably correct, but can you link me to specific statistics? Just so I can see specifics.

[Vincent]

I think you're probably correct, but can you link me to specific statistics? Just so I can see specifics.

Agreed. It really did seem like a country 'not-coping'.

I had previously heard about the problems that arose from the economic mismanagement after the overthrow, but I wasn't sure to what extent they affected people and whether the effects were still noticeable.

On another note - the McDonalds workers in St Petersburg were just as unhappy as the McDonalds workers everywhere else.

[manic expression]

I think you're probably correct, but can you link me to specific statistics? Just so I can see specifics.

Some stuff I just dug up:

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/08/02/world/plunging-life-expectancy-puzzles-russia.html

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/health/article1647475.ece

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/03/AR2008100301976.html

From the above article:
Something even larger is blocking Russia's march. Recent decades, most notably since the breakup of the Soviet Union in 1991, have seen an appalling deterioration in the health of the Russian population, anchoring Russia not in the forefront of developed countries but among the most backward of nations.

This is a tragedy of huge proportions -- but not a particularly surprising one, at least to me. I followed population, health and environmental issues in the Soviet Union for decades, and more recently, I have reported on diseases such as the HIV/AIDS epidemic ravaging the Russian population. I've visited Russia more than 50 times over the years, so I can say from firsthand experience that this national calamity isn't happening suddenly. It's happening inexorably.

It goes on to cite specific statistics, which are indeed appalling.

And something from a pretty run-of-the-mill capitalist institution from what I've seen:

http://www.wilsoncenter.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=events.event_summary&event_id=12226

Stoecker discussed the lasting effects that homelessness has on a child’s life. According to several newspaper sources, nearly 300,000 homeless children are not in school, one in five homeless children becomes a prostitute and one in four develop habits of drug or substance abuse. Other reports detail how homeless kids have been used as “mules” to smuggle narcotics in their stomachs from Central Asia into Europe. According to Stoecker, these experiences not only physically and psychologically affect the children, but also set a pattern of criminality for their entire lives.

It goes on and on and on. It's absolutely sickening to analyze the tragedy that's befallen the former Soviet Union due to capitalism.

[Invincible Summer]

A possibly silly question: The USSR was arguably a state-capitalist, authoritarian society, yet they had better standards of living and all that for the citizens. Is this preferable to capitalism?

[Vincent]

So, this was moved to Learning...


A possibly silly question: The USSR was arguably a state-capitalist, authoritarian society, yet they had better standards of living and all that for the citizens. Is this preferable to capitalism?

It would depend if what you value is a better standard of living, or a 'just' political and economic structure. I think what we generally think is that a society which is just will also have a better standard of thinking - Marxists I guess feel that communism represents both a just society and a better standard of living.

But, as you note there is the possibility that a good standard of living can be achieved within an unjust political structure - but, and this is just my intuition, I think we are safer aiming for the communist ideal, rather than just hoping that whatever happens, we have a better standard of living - Russia could have gone either way in the standard of living in the Soviet-era.

[SecondLife]

In ussr was higher standard of living, but you can't compare this in statistically with some capitalist country, because the measuring system is not the same. Other important aspect, why this nostalgia, was that in ussr the money wasn't superpower. This allows people to be independent, think independently, ethically nobody want to fustigate each other for money.

[Vincent]

In ussr was higher standard of living, but you can't compare this in statistically with some capitalist country, because the measuring system is not the same. Other important aspect, why this nostalgia, was that in ussr the money wasn't superpower. This allows people to be independent, think independently, ethically nobody want to fustigate each other for money.


Good points, and I'd especially be interested in your views, as an Estonian, on the standard of living in Estonia and how it might have changed? I have been there - a beautiful country!

[SecondLife]

Good points, and I'd especially be interested in your views, as an Estonian, on the standard of living in Estonia and how it might have changed? I have been there - a beautiful country!

Now it is usual capitalist country as all others in Europe. But here is a little different story as example in Russia. In most it is psychological problem.
As estonians in ussr-time "so much" wants independence (and therefore also repressions was more), this monomania becomes so deep and also now people can't forget it. This of course impede free political thinking and also makes big problems in aspect of human rights (racism etc). This nationalism across most people is not directly intensional (of course here are also some conscious fascist groups as in all Europe), but rather psychological and pepole itself do not get it. Anywas this is condemnable, in history known as nationalism.

[Vincent]

Now it is usual capitalist country as all others in Europe. But here is a little different story as example in Russia. In most it is psychological problem.
As estonians in ussr-time "so much" wants independence (and therefore also repressions was more), this monomania becomes so deep and also now people can't forget it. This of course impede free political thinking and also makes big problems in aspect of human rights (racism etc). This nationalism across most people is not directly intensional (of course here are also some conscious fascist groups as in all Europe), but rather psychological and pepole itself do not get it. Anywas this is condemnable, in history known as nationalism.

In Estonia, I played in an orchestra in a giant festival in Tallinn celebrating Estonian culture and independence, and as far I understand, this festival is a very big thing for Estonians - is this the type of nationalism you are talking about? Does it perhaps stem back, before the Soviet-era, into other times when Estonia was in the hands of a foreign government?

[SecondLife]

In Estonia, I played in an orchestra in a giant festival in Tallinn celebrating Estonian culture and independence, and as far I understand, this festival is a very big thing for Estonians - is this the type of nationalism you are talking about? Does it perhaps stem back, before the Soviet-era, into other times when Estonia was in the hands of a foreign government?

It was related exactly with soviet-era. Festivals are normal, but after this festival, in humans heads, festival stays every day. This is not normal if head contains only festival. :laugh:

[Communist Theory]

Is Gorby still alive?
I would like to kill him.

[Sam_b]

Russia has got the free markets that the West wanted them along with all "communist countries" to have so badly.

Why hasn't it worked?

Several reasons. First of all, the Shumpetarian neoliberal agenda that was vigourously put into place by the new powers forced a lot of the factories and other sources of production to look at profitability and effectiveness rather than just production rates and the Soviet policy of job security for life. So when the state-owned means of production were sold off (in a completely corrupt way which has led to the phenomena of 'oil oligarchs' and the like) overnight there were going to be job problems and problems of income. Although nationwide the unemployment level stayed stable, in many areas communities were decimated, for example the 'red belt' of agricultural communites. This compounded to become even worse in the crisi of 1998 when the Rouble collapsed.

It is also worth remembering that the centralised state of the Soviet Union, which on most levels was entirely locked in between state and party, provided the social security and welfare for the citizens. Wheras before citizens would be able to enjoy free healthcare and Hgher education, state-run nurseries to look after childcare, and extremely low rates for water, gas electricity etc; the neoliberalism of the country destroyed much of the state's former structure as well as the party itself, and thus welfare was exceptionally minimised and many resources privatised. This 'market liberalisation' has meant that the cost of living in Central and Eastern Europe has spiralled.

Some states have reached capitalisation a lot faster than others: for example Poland, Czech Republic etc. However, Slovakia, Hungary Poland etc still face high unemployment (Poland was 18.1% at the end of 2006, in the aftermath of the fall of the Eastern Bloc it was 6.5%), and its worse in Russia today. Economic disparities have rapidly grown: the average Czech income is over 300 Euros a month, wheras in Ukraine it s under 70. Russia now has approximately 85% of its population living on less than the rouble equivalent of $4 a day, and almost 50% on less than $2.

Whatever you can say about the Soviet Union, one thing is clear: the people may or may not have been 'poor' depending on how you define it, but there was still an equliity of access to provisions, jobs, and although wages were low people still had enough to eat. The new Russian state guarantees none of this.

This is a shning example of how capitalist economics can go very, very wrong.

[SecondLife]

I was 24 when ussr falls. I wasn't communist then. I was stupid kid. If I

would have been then more brains, then maybe I could be there to do something against this fall.....only maybe :(

[Cumannach]

Well before the current recession at least, if I recall correctly, Russia had about 35 billionaires and Moscow had more billionaires than any other city in the world. Also, I read somewhere recently that in the current crisis, the top 20-30 richest Russians have lost about $ 200 billion. Capitalism has worked just dandy.