DPRK Foreign Ministry Spokesman Blasts U.S. Misinterpretation of Satellite Launch as

[China studen]

DPRK Foreign Ministry Spokesman Blasts U.S. Misinterpretation of Satellite Launch as Ballistic Missile Launch


Pyongyang, May 4 (KCNA) -- A spokesman for the DPRK Foreign Ministry gave the following answer to a question raised by KCNA Monday as regards the U.S. persistent insistence that the DPRK launched a ballistic missile, not a satellite, and its moves to make it an established fact:

Kwangmyongsong- 2, satellite the DPRK legitimately launched on April 5 after going through necessary procedures according to international law, was accurately put into orbit 9 minutes and 2 seconds after its launch and it is regularly going round the earth.

The DPRK's satellite launch was aimed at independent scientific researches and development for the peaceful use of outer space.

It is not important to get somebody's recognition. To acquire necessary capability is enough for us.

Even the U.S. scientific research institutions and military research institutes as well as military information institutions confirmed the successful launch of the satellite.

It is only the U.S. administration and unsavory forces subservient to it that insist the DPRK's satellite launch was a ballistic missile launch.

The UNSC pressurized by the high-handed practices of the U.S. so ambiguously interpreted the DPRK's satellite launch as just a "launch" in the "presidential statement" that it could not clarify what it actually criticized.

The political aim sought by the U.S. through the above-said insistence is to secure a pretext for applying sanctions against the DPRK at any cost and physically suffocate its national defence industry.

With nothing can the U.S. justify such illegal provocation as forcing the UNSC to table the issue of the DPRK's launch of satellite for peaceful purposes and issue "a presidential statement" with no binding force in a bid to apply sanctions against it.

All the facts go to clearly prove that although the present U.S. administration plays tricks, talking about "change" and "multi-lateral cooperation diplomacy" it is nothing different from the preceding administration which frantically worked to stifle by force other countries which incurred its displeasure.

It is the lesson taught by the reality of the international relations today that strength alone can defend one's sovereignty.

http://img.blshe.com/resserver.php?blogId=10205&resource=b47433ef05.jpg&mode=medium

[Dr Mindbender]

Great news, they cant afford to prevent their own people starving to death but they can afford a space program.

Yet more proof of the DPRK's upside down 'socialism'.

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

The US and it's mercenaries need to shut up.
The DPRK has the right for a space program.

[Sasha]

and i have the right to not go to work and party all the time, but i cant afford it because i will starve.....

[Panda Tse Tung]

The fact that there was a starvation had nothing to do with the amount of capital present in the DPRK. But with the fact that the international community refused to provide the requested amount of food, and the food in the country itself was not sufficient. Either way, there is no longer any starvation. So *****ing about it at this day and time is still weird.

[Dr Mindbender]

The US and it's mercenaries need to shut up.
The DPRK has the right for a space program.

I think the right of the North Korean people to eat should take greater precedence.

[Elway]

North Korea's Space Program's Secret Mission.

Here it is, recovered at great cost by CIA agents. North Korea's Space Program's plans:

http://www.theonion.com/content/video/kim_jong_il_announces_plan_to

[mykittyhasaboner]

I think its good that North Korea has a space program. It proves the stereotypical notion that they as a nation are close-minded, hostile, backward, and alienated dead wrong. It's of no surprise that the US would be quick to claim the usual crap going on about nuclear weapons. It's even worse when those on the left parrot the same things.

[Salyut]

Ballistic missile = launch vehicle. Hell, Japan has the M5, and that thing is pretty similar to a American Peacekeeper ICBM.

By 'pretty similar' I mean stick a warhead or four on and presto! ICBM!

[Uppercut]

The DPRK is a perfect example of a failed socialist state. The people starve, have no rights, no freedom, limited media, can't relocate, etc. They're more fascist than socialist. Kim Jong-il doesn't care for his people.

[Cumannach]

I think its good that North Korea has a space program. It proves the stereotypical notion that they as a nation are close-minded, hostile, backward, and alienated dead wrong. It's of no surprise that the US would be quick to claim the usual crap going on about nuclear weapons. It's even worse when those on the left parrot the same things.

It's amazing. Not to mention the fact that if they so choose they have every right to build nuclear weapons to defend against criminal imperialist nations like the USA, which has just destroyed the country of Iraq and killed millions of Iraqis. We all remember how that one started off too, don't we?

The DPRK is a perfect example of a failed socialist state. The people starve, have no rights, no freedom, limited media, can't relocate, etc. They're more fascist than socialist. Kim Jong-il doesn't care for his people.
No offense, but that's an incredibly retarded thing to say.

[KC]

I think the right of the North Korean people to eat should take greater precedence.Could you please provide starvation rates in the DPRK for the past three years? I am interested in your source. Also, could you please also provide some substantiation for the claim that such rates are due in large part to governmental policies?

[Dr Mindbender]

Could you please provide starvation rates in the DPRK for the past three years? I am interested in your source. Also, could you please also provide some substantiation for the claim that such rates are due in large part to governmental policies?

I think the fact that so many North Koreans are desperate enough to risk death and torture to get into China says more about the poor quality of life there than any evidence you could possibly provide to the contrary.

The substantiation for this is partly the waves of the afforementioned migrants coupled with the fact that all the while the DPRK are spending shitloads of money on building big fucking missiles.

If you believe the DPRK is any way socialist, sorry but youre a dickhead.



No offense, but that's an incredibly retarded thing to say.
What an incredible strawman.

[KC]

I think the fact that so many North Koreans are desperate enough to risk death and torture to get into China says more about the poor quality of life there than any evidence you could possibly provide to the contrary.I am not interested in providing any evidence to the contrary, nor do I have to. You have made a claim that DPRK citizens are starving to death in massive amounts due to governmental policies, and when asked to back up such a ridiculous statement you have shown that you are completely unable to do so, thereby invalidating your claim entirely and exposing you for what you are - a parrot of the absolute lowest and most obviously incorrect bourgeois propaganda.

I'm not going to say that North Koreans have a great standard of living; but when you make a claim that you did, and then go on to support it by saying what you did, you lose all credibility. You aren't even able to back up your own argument for fucks' sake! You're not even interested in doing so! You're just interested in spreading unsubstantiated lies.

So why is that? Why are you more interested in spreading lies than finding out what is true? The only possibility that I can see is that you are siding with American imperialism against the "axis of evil" for some reason or another; if that is the case, why are you not restricted? If it is not, then why are you so hell-bent on spreading lies?

EDIT: I'd also like to point out that this is the same line that was parroted by the American warmongers about the Iraqi administration prior to the invasion and subsequent occupation of the country (Saddam "built palaces" while his people starved; forget, of course, the impact of the complete and utter annihilation of the country's infrastructure by the United States, or the food distribution plan implemented by the Ba'athist regime that was lauded by the UN as one of the most efficient ever implemented). This is, in the most obvious and dishonest way, taken straight out of the imperialist playbook.

[Dr Mindbender]

I am not interested in providing any evidence to the contrary, nor do I have to. You have made a claim that DPRK citizens are starving to death in massive amounts due to governmental policies, and when asked to back up such a ridiculous statement you have shown that you are completely unable to do so, thereby invalidating your claim entirely and exposing you for what you are - a parrot of the absolute lowest and most obviously incorrect bourgeois propaganda.

oh here we go. ZOMG!! bourgeioise propaganda!! It's all lies!!

I am continally fascinated and bemused at members here who feel obliged to apologise for and defend oppressive states that are clearly neither socialist or progressive.

I've never been to North Korea in all honesty, from what i've heard any tourists that go there are prohibited from seeing workers villages there which i think in itself speaks volumes.

Perhaps if the DPRK was a desirable place to live, it wouldnt have to shoot at those trying to leave or allow tourists to go more than 30 yards from their hotel room without a 'state guide'.

[KC]

oh here we go. ZOMG!! bourgeioise propaganda!! It's all lies!!

Oh, please. I'm the last person to call everything lies. But the problem with you saying this right now, is that you haven't even offered up a single ounce of substantiation for your claim. There is nothing here except empty claims and emotional hatemongering; there is nothing here except the "absolute lowest and most obviously incorrect bourgeois propaganda".


I am continally fascinated and bemused at members here who feel obliged to apologise for and defend oppressive states that are clearly neither socialist or progressive.

It's pretty funny that you're making this claim against me when you are implicitly apologizing for and defending imperialist attacks on the DPRK by implementing their empty and hateful rhetoric in support of such attacks.

Now, your turn. Show me where I have "apologize[d] for and defend[ed]" the current North Korean government.


I've never been to North Korea in all honesty, from what i've heard any tourists that go there are prohibited from seeing workers villages there which i think in itself speaks volumes.

This is irrelevant to your earlier claim that North Koreans are starving en masse due to governmental policy. Stop diverting; you made a claim that you are not only unwilling but also unable to back up. Either back up your claim or admit that you are wrong.


Perhaps if the DPRK was a desirable place to live, it wouldnt have to shoot at those trying to leave or allow tourists to go more than 30 yards from their hotel room without a 'state guide'.

This is also irrelevant. I want to see the evidence for your original claim, that North Koreans are starving en masse due to governmental policies. Until you are able to do so, stop diverting; if you are not able to do so then admit you are wrong.

Also, you have not addressed the incredibly important question of why you are spreading unsubstantiated imperialist hatemongering rhetoric.

[Dr Mindbender]

Oh, please. I'm the last person to call everything lies. But the problem with you saying this right now, is that you haven't even offered up a single ounce of substantiation for your claim. There is nothing here except empty claims and emotional hatemongering; there is nothing here except the "absolute lowest and most obviously incorrect bourgeois propaganda".

Do you have to back up everything you say with unproportionate hyperbole?

I don't hate North Korea, or it's people, I do however recognise it's government as being complicit with a bourgeioise consensus that is directly opposed to the interests of it's own people.

I dont 'hate' the North Korean government any more than i hate the govt's of britain or the US, but equally i recognise they are both sides of the same rotten coin.

You are the playing the nationalist card, by implying that i'm 'Anti-north korea'.

Perhaps you ought to take a look in the mirror and examine your own class consciousness.

[KC]

Do you have to back up everything you say with unproportionate hyperbole?

Can you back up anything you say at all?


I don't hate North Korea, or it's people, I do however recognise it's government as being complicit with a bourgeioise consensus that is directly opposed to the interests of it's own people.

Good for you. Now show me how this is relevant in any way to me calling you out on your bullshit.


I dont 'hate' the North Korean government any more than i hate the govt's of britain or the US, but equally i recognise they are both sides of the same rotten coin.

Then let us return to the question: why are you implicitly apologizing for imperialist attacks on the DPRK through your use of their propaganda?


You are the playing the nationalist card, by implying that i'm 'Anti-north korea'.

No, I am playing the obvious card, by showing that you're full of shit and can't back up your claims, and are openly apologizing for imperialism.

[mykittyhasaboner]

I'll just leave this here as a point of reference.

http://koreantruth.awardspace.com/home.html

[Dr Mindbender]

Can you back up anything you say at all?

Yes.




Good for you. Now show me how this is relevant in any way to me calling you out on your bullshit.

ಠ_ಠ (http://encyclopediadramatica.com/%E0%B2%A0_%E0%B2%A0)






Then let us return to the question: why are you implicitly apologizing for imperialist attacks on the DPRK through your use of their propaganda?

what imperialist attacks on the DPRK?

What the fuck are you even talking about?




No, I am playing the obvious card, by showing that you're full of shit and can't back up your claims, and are openly apologizing for imperialism.

im not apoligising for imperialism, but you are apologising for a backward dictatorship that has nothing to do with socialism.

This is the best laugh i've had since i got into an argument with a sparticist paper seller in London who tried to convince me that china was communist.

[KC]

Yes.

Ok, then back up your claim that North Korean citizens are starving due to governmental policies.



im not apoligising for imperialism, but you are apologising for a backward dictatorship that has nothing to do with socialism.

Again, show me where I have done so.


This is the best laugh i've had since i got into an argument with a sparticist paper seller in London who tried to convince me that china was communist.

Yes, making unsubtantiated claims and then getting called out on it must be hilarious to you, as you do it all the time.

[#FF0000]

Electoral turnout in the DPRK is virtually 100% compared to 60-70% in Western countries and even low as 20% in some extreme cases (UK local and Euro elections in some areas) and a 100% affirmative vote for the candidates.

This doesn't sit well with me for some reason.


Also, many people actually forget or do not know that in the DPRK as part of the 'Nationwide All People Defense System' everyone is armed, so a dictator or government that went against the will of the people would not last long

Oh shit. This is a plus.


The great leader comrade Kim Il Sung...

And there they go, wasting all this effort making a site with great information, only to totally discredit themselves by presenting some glaringly obvious bias. How are people so incompetent?

[Dr Mindbender]

Ok, then back up your claim that North Korean citizens are starving due to governmental policies.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwedNY3QzM8




Again, show me where I have done so.

Because you pounced upon every percieved criticism of the DPRK up until this moment as 'imperialist apologism'.




Yes, making unsubtantiated claims and then getting called out on it must be hilarious to you, as you do it all the time.

You should join the sparticist movement, you'd feel right at home.

[mykittyhasaboner]

This doesn't sit well with me for some reason.
Why?




Oh shit. This is a plus.
I would think it is. I'm not sure if your being sarcastic or not here.




And there they go, wasting all this effort making a site with great information, only to totally discredit themselves by presenting some glaringly obvious bias. How are people so incompetent?
So the writer may be unoriginal and biased. It doesn't change the facts laid out on the site.

[KC]

Random Youtube video

I don't think that exactly qualifies as a "source".:lol:


Because you pounced upon every percieved criticism of the DPRK up until this moment as 'imperialist apologism'.

Really? Please link me to where I said that every perceived criticism of the DPRK is "imperialist apologism". I don't think you can, because I only said that about your completely unsubstantiated bullshit.

[Dr Mindbender]

Also, many people actually forget or do not know that in the DPRK as part of the 'Nationwide All People Defense System' everyone is armed, so a dictator or government that went against the will of the people would not last long

'Nationwide All People defense system' AKA the north korean army?

they pledge their allegiance to dear leader anyway.

[Dr Mindbender]

Really? Please link me to where I said that every perceived criticism of the DPRK is "imperialist apologism". I don't think you can, because I only said that about your completely unsubstantiated bullshit.

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/facepalm.jpg

[KC]

So you are unable to do so and resort to spamming instead. Good job at basically admitting that you are a failure.

[Dr Mindbender]

So you are unable to do so and resort to spamming instead. Good job at basically admitting that you are a failure.

No, I'm giving up at convincing stalin-kiddies like you not to support countries that fail at being socialist.

Don't you have nuclear proliferation for DPRK demonstration to go to?

[#FF0000]

Why?

100% affirmative vote? As in 100% of the the population that voted (100%) voted in favor of a candidate? That's what I read that as. Did I comprehend that incorrectly?


I would think it is. I'm not sure if your being sarcastic or not here.I'm not being sarcastic. That's rather baller. I have to wonder what the quality of the weapons are in comparison to the military's guns, though.

[KC]

No, I'm giving up at convincing stalin-kiddies like you not to support countries that fail at being socialist.:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Oh man, this is hilarious.

Fail #1. You just called a Trotskyist a "stalin kiddie"
Fail #2. You already failed at showing me where I supported the DPRK
Fail #3. You ASSumed that I even considered the DPRK to be socialist

Wow, that's three fails in one sentence. I seriously didn't know that was even possible.

Anyways, since you are unable and unwilling to even attempt to defend your statement, and are instead resorting to ad hominems, I figured that I would further demolish your ridiculous claim, since I'm bored and it took me about five minutes to do.


The hand-to-mouth existence of North Korea's 23 million inhabitants is at risk of deteriorating into "a serious tragedy", the UN food agency warned yesterday.

Long-term food shortages have been exacerbated by last year's floods, which devastated the country's agricultural production, while key donors China and South Korea are expected to reduce their direct aid to the country this year.


Relations on the peninsula have deteriorated sharply since the new South Korean president, Lee Myung-bak, took power in February. Pyongyang is furious at his insistence that humanitarian assistance depends on the progress it makes in dismantling its nuclear weapons programme, a break with the previous "sunshine policy" of engagement.


The World Food Programme estimates that already 6.5 million people are short of food. It said state rations were dwindling while prices in markets had doubled - with a kilogram of rice now costing around one-third of a typical worker's monthly salary.


"The food security situation is clearly bad and getting worse," said Tony Banbury, Asia regional director for WFP. "It is increasingly likely that external assistance will be required to avert a tragedy."


Jean-Pierre de Margerie, WFP's country director in North Korea, told the Associated Press that officials had admitted for the first time that they were having to reduce or suspend state rations. "It's a bit of a perfect storm shaping up," he said.


The hostile relationship with South Korea is taking its toll: Seoul has not sent its annual fertiliser donation to the north, which de Margerie said was likely to cause a decrease in this year's harvest.


Hundreds of thousands of North Koreans are believed to have died in the famine of the 1990s.


The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/17/korea.food)
It's completely obvious that this imminent crisis in the DPRK is due to natural disasters as well as an attempt to leverage the starvation of the people of the DPRK by South Korea in order to grant political concessions. If any government is primarily to blame, it is that of South Korea.

[Dr Mindbender]

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Oh man, this is hilarious.

Fail #1. You just called a Trotskyist a "stalin kiddie"
I had noticed your trotksyist moniker, I assumed it was meant in parody as i couldnt explain why a trot would be so vigorously defending a stalinist state.


Fail #2. You already failed at showing me where I supported the DPRK
I did, you just ignored my point.


Fail #3. You ASSumed that I even considered the DPRK to be socialist
why are you attacking any hostility against it then? If i was to launch a political tirade against Iran, you wouldnt give a shit. Why should the DPRK be any different?


If any government is primarily to blame, it is that of South Korea.
And Dear Leader's penchant for expensive space vehicles has no effect on the DPRK's economy?

C'mon surely you cant be that ignorant.

[KC]

I did, you just ignored my point.

Ok, show me where you linked to where I did this. You facepalmed when I asked you to, remember? Because you were unable to do so.


why are you attacking any hostility against it then?


Really? Please link me to where I said that every perceived criticism of the DPRK is "imperialist apologism". I don't think you can, because I only said that about your completely unsubstantiated bullshit.


If i was to launch a political tirade against Iran, you wouldnt give a shit. Why should the DPRK be any different?

There's a difference between actually putting forward an argument and spewing lies and imperialist rhetoric.


And Dear Leader's penchant for expensive space vehicles has no effect on the DPRK's economy?

C'mon surely you cant be that ignorant.

And I'm sure the Ba'ath administration in Iraq was responsible for the food crisis created by the sanctions imposed upon it as a leverage for disarmament. "Building palaces" and whatnot...:rolleyes:

You're still parroting FOX talking points.

[Dr Mindbender]

Ok, show me where you linked to where I did this. You facepalmed when I asked you to, remember? Because you were unable to do so.
No i facepalmed because you were being an obnoxious child.

In the previous post, i said that you were apologising for the DPRK through your vitrious attacks against criticisms that were made against it, of which you made several if you can be bothered to go through your previous posts.



There's a difference between actually putting forward an argument and spewing lies and imperialist rhetoric.
There you go again! Would it be imperialist rhetoric to say that people are starving and generally living poorly in Zimbabwe, a dictatorship ruled by a ideology which we have no allegiance to? No! Why is it any less of a case when we refer to the DPRK, again, a country which you claim (and i hope) you have no political sympathies for.

Theres difference between propagandative rhetoric and truth-ism.




And I'm sure the Ba'ath administration in Iraq was responsible for the food crisis created by the sanctions imposed upon it as a leverage for disarmament. "Building palaces" and whatnot...:rolleyes:
Baghdad was getting the fuck bombed out of it, Pyongyang isnt. Different material circumstances altogether.



You're still parroting FOX talking points.
Oh, get over yourself.

[benhur]

North Koreans may be starving, and the ruler may be responsible. But that alone isn't the issue here. US might well do an 'Iraq' in North Korea, and hence NK's supposed jingoism should be understood, if not justified, on that basis.

[KC]

No i facepalmed because you were being an obnoxious child.

In the previous post, i said that you were apologising for the DPRK through your vitrious attacks against criticisms that were made against it, of which you made several if you can be bothered to go through your previous posts.

Please link me where I attacked anything but your unsubstantiated bullshit, then. I've been asking you to do so for a while now, and you have yet to do it.


There you go again! Would it be imperialist rhetoric to say that people are starving and generally living poorly in Zimbabwe, a dictatorship ruled by a ideology which we have no allegiance to? No! Why is it any less of a case when we refer to the DPRK, again, a country which you claim (and i hope) you have no political sympathies for.


There's a difference between actually putting forward an argument and spewing lies and imperialist rhetoric.


Theres difference between propagandative rhetoric and truth-ism.

You haven't offered any truth; in fact, it's already been proven that you're flat out wrong.


Baghdad was getting the fuck bombed out of it, Pyongyang isnt. Different material circumstances altogether.

This isn't relevant at all to your "building palaces" claim, actually. You're arguing that the North Korean government is spending its money on irrelevant luxuries while its people starve; this is the exact same rhetoric used against the Ba'ath regime.

[Dr Mindbender]

blah blah blah bullshit....

...This isn't relevant at all to your "building palaces" claim, actually. You're arguing that the North Korean government is spending its money on irrelevant luxuries while its people starve; this is the exact same rhetoric used against the Ba'ath regime.

No, the rhetoric used against the ba'ath regime was that it was building and storing WMD's which famously turned out to be a lie.

The DPRK isnt denying building space rockets.

[KC]

No, the rhetoric used against the ba'ath regime was that it was building and storing WMD's which famously turned out to be a lie.

The DPRK isnt denying building space rockets.

Apparently you didn't understand to what I was referring, even though I have said it numerous times. The charge leveled at the Ba'ath regime (and Saddam in particular, as it was common to refer to the party's actions as "Saddam's actions") was that they were building palaces while the Iraqi people starved. Hell, I even explicitly drew out this argument (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1441099&postcount=14), but apparently that went over your head.

But that doesn't really matter, because your original assertion (which, remember, you were completely unable to defend) has already been proven wrong (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1441171&postcount=31).

[Dr Mindbender]

Apparently you didn't understand to what I was referring, even though I have said it numerous times. The charge leveled at the Ba'ath regime (and Saddam in particular, as it was common to refer to the party's actions as "Saddam's actions") was that they were building palaces while the Iraqi people starved. Hell, I even explicitly drew out this argument (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1441099&postcount=14), but apparently that went over your head.


I was unfamiliar with that particular event in honesty, but the fact remains there are still huge differences between the DPRK and Saddam's Iraq so i dont accept the 2 examples as being analogous.

If anywhere, the situation with the DPRK is closer to Zimbabwe as i've already said.

In regards to the flood, i never claimed that the government policies were the only cause of the hardship (which you somehow think i said) more that they are an exacerbating factor. It cant help that there are natural disasters but the government is not pulling its full financial weight in dealing with the matter.

[fatpanda]

the biggest starvations in asia happen to be in
bangladesh
cambodia
nepal
east timor
all free market capitalist paradises
yeah but the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea government is still ass
i like the posters though

[Dr Mindbender]

the biggest starvations in asia happen to be in
bangladesh
cambodia
nepal
east timor


At least in these countries youre allowed to leave.

[mykittyhasaboner]

100% affirmative vote? As in 100% of the the population that voted (100%) voted in favor of a candidate? That's what I read that as. Did I comprehend that incorrectly?
Well I'm not quite sure about this, as there is no source provided for this claim. I think that site is better for comparing statistics and seeing that the DPRK is pretty much on par or better with other Asian countries, even China. It dispells the kind of vision that North Koreans live in dire poverty and don't have any positive social structure.


I'm not being sarcastic. That's rather baller. I have to wonder what the quality of the weapons are in comparison to the military's guns, though.
Obviously citizens aren't as equipped as the military, but I wouldn't be surprised if they had access to a decent arsenal in comparison. Think about it the DPRK is still technically at war with the ROK, it would be within reason to organize citizens into (probably) trained militias given the severity of the tension and conflict between the two sides.

[Jia]

Their is no large Famine currently in the DPRK.

Sure, there is malnourishment and general food shortages, but the space program is a way to show the rest of the world that the DPRK is not 200 years behind the rest of the world. Must we forget, the DPRK was the most heavily industrialised country in East Asia at a point!

[Dr Mindbender]

Their is no large Famine currently in the DPRK.

Sure, there is malnourishment and general food shortages, but the space program is a way to show the rest of the world that the DPRK is not 200 !

I beleive that when the exodus of people trying to get into China stops.

[KC]

I beleive that when the exodus of people trying to get into China stops.

Now let us hear you talk about Cuba...:rolleyes:

[Jia]

I beleive that when the exodus of people trying to get into China stops.

That's because China is better, silly.

[Dr Mindbender]

Now let us hear you talk about Cuba...:rolleyes:

I'm not sure that Cuba is socialist either, but theyve done a better job of it than the DPRK.

and it isnt the cuban authorities that are responsible for their failed migration efforts.

[China studen]

I'm not sure that Cuba is socialist either, but theyve done a better job of it than the DPRK.

and it isnt the cuban authorities that are responsible for their failed migration efforts.


Cuba still a small number of market economy. Cuba is also the dictatorship of the proletariat are not heavy enough. There are still prostitutes in Cuba, but not in North Korea! North Korea is truly a socialist country. People with dignity, their own masters.

[Sasha]

offcourse there is prostitution in northkorea you idiot...

[Jia]

offcourse there is prostitution in northkorea you idiot...

There is little crime, no gangwar in DPRK

[Kassad]

This thread has helped reiterate to me that a significant amount of Anarchists (mostly anti-communists like Noam Chomsky), though they consistently criticize the imperialist and colonial powers of the world for their ravaging destruction of resources and civilizations worldwide, they obviously do not pay one bit of attention to the real impact it has. North Korea, like all other states attempting socialist construction, was impoverished during the time of its revolution. It was a nation that attempted to resist the shackles of imperialism and struggle for a socialist future. The United States would have none of that.

With the Korean War, the United States spent a significant amount of its time attempting to divide the Korean culture. They waged a war that destroyed Korea and sent its economy spiraling into the ground. This war never ended, as the United States still has troops in South Korea that perform routine combat exercises regularly to simulate a combat effort on the border. This, piled on with the sanctions that the underdeveloped Korea has had to sustain, has led to significant hardships in Korea. Especially with the collapse of the socialist camp, there has been no one to come to the aid of Koreans, leaving them stranded to bear the chains of imperialism by themselves. So we wonder why people are trying to leave? It's because the nation, which is nearly barren and devoid of agricultural capability, is consistently ravaged by worldwide imperialism. People want to leave because it is nearly impossible to sustain the Korean people under such hardship. Like Joseph Stalin, Kim Jong Il is forced to spend such a significant amount of the budget on military defense and industrialization because an attempted occupation of Korea by imperialists is not far-fetched. With consistent threats on North Korea, they must defend themselves, their revolution and their right to self-determination.

As we see commonly, Anarchists fall into the trap of anti-communism, along with their consistent propagation of imperialist and bourgeois propaganda that is consistently promoted by imperialist states to fuel hatred and disposition towards socialist construction. Anarchists don't acknowledge the influence of imperialism whatsoever, or else they would comprehend the real situation in Korea. Socialism is not failing, imperialism is, and as long as colonialist states continue to promote fearmongering and destruction, socialist construction is unfeasible.

[Dr Mindbender]

There is little crime, no gangwar in DPRK

Anthropologically speaking, i'd genuinely like to know why this is.

Is it because-

A) North Koreans are genuinely content with their material circumstances
B) Culturally, they are closed off from the rest of the world thanks to their authoritarian media and border controls.
C) They are too shit scared of the authorities to do anything to upset them.

True, i cant prove what the real cause (because the authorities wont let me visit the 'real' NK which in itself speaks volumes) is but my instincts are pointing towards a combination of B and C.

[Dr Mindbender]

anti-communists like Noam Chomsky

lol. This is the first time i've seen 'anti-communist' used in this context.

[KC]

True, i cant prove what the real cause

Why are you even posting then?

[Kassad]

lol. This is the first time i've seen 'anti-communist' used in this context.

You have made a number of fallacious and absurd claims in just this thread, none of which you have justified. Your opinion is totally irrelevant and baseless in almost any context at this point.

[Dr Mindbender]

Why are you even posting then?

Because all of the evidence, both televised and anecotal (no not just fox news) points to the suggestion that the the DPRK is not a socialist utopia.

So please, without resorting to unproductive ad hominem or ranting- If the DPRK citizens are living it large, then why-

1- have its people been found trying to escape on foot despite dangerous factors like freezing weather and troops shooting at them?

2- Western tourists are prohibited from visiting sites not approved by the state?

I would genuinely like to believe there is one socialist oasis on earth, but all of the factors point to the conclusion that the DPRK is not it. Please though, if you have reason to believe the contrary, and that they at the very least deserve protection from our criticism, then i await for you to enlighten me.

I wont be holding my breath though.

[KC]

So please, without resorting to unproductive ad hominem or ranting- If the DPRK citizens are living it large, then why-

1- have its people been found trying to escape on foot despite dangerous factors like freezing weather and troops shooting at them?

2- Western tourists are prohibited from visiting sites not approved by the state?

I would genuinely like to believe there is one socialist oasis on earth, but all of the factors point to the conclusion that the DPRK is not it. Please though, if you have reason to believe the contrary, and that they at the very least deserve protection from our criticism, then i await for you to enlighten me.

I wont be holding my breath though.

More straw men. Are you able of coming up with anything substantial to say at all, ever???

[Dr Mindbender]

More straw men. Are you able of coming up with anything substantial to say at all, ever???

I've asked you why you think the DPRK should be defended, but in light of this response I take that as ''no i can't''.

I think at this point i will politely ask you to agree to disagree with me.

I hope you can at least mantain some modicum of civility at this point.

[BobKKKindle$]

At least in these countries youre allowed to leave.

This is a very bourgeois conception of freedom. People in Bangladesh are free to leave in the sense that if they have enough money to buy a plane ticket then they can go to the airport and travel to the country of their choice and even stay there forever without ever coming back to Bangladesh, and the government will not do anything to stop them, and if they leave family members behind they will not be persecuted. This course of action, however, is not available to the vast majority of the population in Bangladesh and every other underdeveloped country because most people are wage labourers, and therefore receive an income that is barely sufficient to purchase the basic things they need to survive and provide the needs of their family members, let alone travel to other countries, and are locked into a relationship of dependency whereby they have to continue to sell their labour power each day under conditions that are set by the bosses to avoid starvation. In other words, for workers, the freedom to travel is only a formal freedom, just like all of the other freedoms that we are allegedly given under capitalism, because they do not possess the actual material resources that would enable them to exercise that right in a meaningful sense. The only people who can really be seen as being free in a capitalist society are the members of the bourgeoisie, because their wealth allows them to do whatever they like, within the confines of the law, whereas workers are limited by their economic circumstances.

I would argue that people in North Korea are much more free than people in other countries even though they lack the legal right to emigrate at will. The fact that North Koreans receive free education and healthcare, live in a society with liberal abortion laws, and do not face the risk of being made unemployed, means that the average North Korean citizen has a far greater ability to exercise control over the direction of her life, and develop her potential. This is the communist conception of freedom - what people can really do (otherwise known as the exercise-concept) instead of what they are legally allowed to do, and whether people have access to opportunities to develop themselves as individuals.

[KC]

I take that as ''no i can't''.

I think at this point i will politely ask you to agree to disagree with me.

I hope you can at least mantain some modicum of civility at this point.

1. Nobody ever made any single claim that you are presenting them to have made. Hence the straw men, and hence the fact that your posts are completely irrelevant.
2. I'll be civil to you once you stop lying and making up claims that you are not only unable to back up, but unwilling as well.

[Dr Mindbender]

This is a very bourgeois conception of freedom. .

I think you're applying a oversimplified view of freedom.

Total freedom would represent both the material means to choose to stay, but also the material means to choose to move at will.

At risk of provoking KC, all of the testimonials i have seen online, on tv and in literature suggests that the people of North Korea have neither.

[KC]

I think you're applying a oversimplified view of freedom.

Total freedom would represent both the material means to choose to stay, but also the freedom to choose to move at will.

At risk of provoking KC, all of the testimonials i have seen online, on tv and in literature suggests that the people of North Korea have neither.

Show us where it was claimed that the DPRK is a socialist paradise.

[Guerrilla22]

I remember some people in one of my classes being worried about this back when it took place, including the prof. The comments ranged from "I'm concerned for the people of Japan," to "if they fire a missle at the US we will be able to shoot down well before it gets here," Unreal.

[Dr Mindbender]

[/I]Show us where it was claimed that the DPRK is a socialist paradise.

I was using hyperbole to enforce my sentiment. You took it literally.

[KC]

I was using hyperbole to enforce my sentiment. You took it literally.

You can't back up anything you say so you resort to diversions and straw men, attempting to paint anyone that disagrees with you as someone that has a hard-on for the DPRK state apparatus. You have essentially less than zero legs to stand on.

So again, why are you still posting here? What are you trying to achieve, aside from embarrassing yourself further?

[cb9's_unity]

I have a hard time trusting any country that has had the same family line in power for the past half century. More than that I don't trust any country that goes around using 'Great Leader' and 'gives' their leaders god like status.

And yes any country that has nearly 100% participation in elections and continuously votes the same people into power has to just be handing out B.S statistics. The facts are that a lot of people just don't like to vote and don't care about government and I don't see that being any different anywhere else. Also voting numbers drop significantly when people don't see the need to vote (as obviously no other party presents a serious threat to the power of the NK government). Just look at how more people have been voting in America when it is at least perceived by most that their vote has a huge impact.

Basically from all i've ever heard no one comes back from NK saying "wow that place was pretty socialistic". All i know is that instead of showing off their workers democracy and letting workers speak for themselves they make sure the government is always watching.

My view may not be scientific but the fact is too many things just don't add up when looking at north korea. If they want to prove themselves they should let socialist and bourgeois media groups have a free look at everyday life in their country. And they should allow it without the government looking behind their backs the whole time ensuring workers and peasants keep with the party line. NK is just too secretive and too apparently nationalist and dogmatic to make me believe they are really forging socialism.

[Wanted Man]

My view may not be scientific but the fact is too many things just don't add up when looking at north korea. If they want to prove themselves they should let socialist and bourgeois media groups have a free look at everyday life in their country. And they should allow it without the government looking behind their backs the whole time ensuring workers and peasants keep with the party line. NK is just too secretive and too apparently nationalist and dogmatic to make me believe they are really forging socialism.
What I don't get is the obsession with tourism, with media, etc. It's like, oh, I can't go to the beach in North Korea in-between inspecting their factories to make sure they have workers' control, so that means it's not socialist. I'll just take a guess and say that the last thing on their mind is proving themselves to the kind of western leftist that judges the world through their tv and computer screen.

[Dr Mindbender]

What I don't get is the obsession with tourism, with media, etc. It's like, oh, I can't go to the beach in North Korea in-between inspecting their factories to make sure they have workers' control, so that means it's not socialist. I'll just take a guess and say that the last thing on their mind is proving themselves to the kind of western leftist that judges the world through their tv and computer screen.

It still doesnt answer the question of why they don't want to let anyone go there.

Your argument would hold water if they didnt care, but the fact is they actively prohibit westerners from going to certain parts.

They're like a naughty teenage boy hiding his pornography from his mother.

[BobKKKindle$]

I think you're applying a oversimplified view of freedom.

Total freedom would represent both the material means to choose to stay, but also the material means to choose to move at will.

At risk of provoking KC, all of the testimonials i have seen online, on tv and in literature suggests that the people of North Korea have neither.

I never said that the people of North Korea have "absolute freedom". I made the simple point that the fact that people in Bangladesh have the legal right to emigrate from their country whereas people in North Korea do not does not automatically mean that the workers of Bangladesh are more free, because having the legal right to do something does not tell us much about whether people can actually exercise that right in a meaningful way. This is not actually a very complicated argument, it's just me exposing that shallow nature of bourgeois freedom. Do you agree that workers in North Korea are more free than those in Bangladesh, given the absence of free education etc. in the latter?


Your argument would hold water if they didnt care, but the fact is they actively prohibit westerners from going to certain parts.

Why does it even matter what western tourists are allowed to do? Is it really all that surprising that a country that has been faced with the constant threat of imperialist attack for the past fifty years, and has suffered numerous incursions and violations of its sovereignty, would be worried about letting tourists - who may well be reporters in disguise - wander around, viewing potentially sensitive things?

[Wanted Man]

It still doesnt answer the question of why they don't want to let anyone go there.
Because they are not under your scrutiny, and they do not depend on your approval. But maybe they'll make an exception for you. On the condition that they will be allowed to spend a week in your house, trash the place and interrogate your friends, family and neighbours until you present evidence that you are not a psychopathic murderer, amirite?

Seriously though. It's a ridiculous line of argument. And then some people suggest that it is unfair to say that you're arguing from a privileged point of view. Well, this thread proves them right.


Your argument would hold water if they didnt care, but the fact is they actively prohibit westerners from going to certain parts.

They're like a naughty teenage boy hiding his pornography from his mother.
Brilliant comparison. It's actually more like a child suffering from abuse, trying to hide from the abusive parents that they are seeking help for it, at the risk of being smacked down again.

[Dr Mindbender]

I never said that the people of North Korea have "absolute freedom". I made the simple point that the fact that people in Bangladesh have the legal right to emigrate from their country whereas people in North Korea do not does not automatically mean that the workers of Bangladesh are more free, because having the legal right to do something does not tell us much about whether people can actually exercise that right in a meaningful way. This is not actually a very complicated argument, it's just me exposing that shallow nature of bourgeois freedom. Do you agree that workers in North Korea are more free than those in Bangladesh, given the absence of free education etc. in the latter?


Its not really an absolute question that i'm willing to entertain, because i think both states are repressive in equal measure. Yes, DPRK workers may have some material freedom in terms of education but Bangladeshis as you've said have legal freedom.

I think that unless both are combined, then ultimately they mean very little.

Frankly i'm confused at the ultra-leftist approach that the DPRK is more deserving of defence than other states.

[KC]

Frankly i'm confused at the ultra-leftist approach that the DPRK is more deserving of defence than other states.

:laugh:

[Dr Mindbender]

Because they are not under your scrutiny, and they do not depend on your approval. But maybe they'll make an exception for you. On the condition that they will be allowed to spend a week in your house, trash the place and interrogate your friends, family and neighbours until you present evidence that you are not a psychopathic murderer, amirite?
When i visit the Florida swamplands, or the French Alps, i don't need to let the locals 'spend a week' in my house.





Brilliant comparison. It's actually more like a child suffering from abuse, trying to hide from the abusive parents that they are seeking help for it, at the risk of being smacked down again.

Dear Leader is not a big tough guy. He has a circle of cronies, and loyal army officers that give the orders out. If they wanted, they could boot him out tomorrow and install real socialism. But they don't, because their loyalty is bought.


It could be argued that the state agents that prohibit westerners from venturing away from the designated path are complicit with the juche oppression.

Lastly, if the 'abusive parent' in your analogy represents the USA, then the usa would love westerners to see north korean disrepair because it would be a propaganda victory. I fail to see how military action would come into it.

[Wanted Man]

Frankly i'm confused at the ultra-leftist approach that the DPRK is more deserving of defence than other states.
Nobody is arguing that. I'm seriously starting to worry now... Most people have plenty to criticise about the DPRK, just not with completely ridiculous sensationalist bullshit.

[Wanted Man]

Dear Leader is not a big tough guy. He has a circle of cronies, and loyal army officers that give the orders out. If they wanted, they could boot him out tomorrow and install real socialism. But they don't, because their loyalty is bought.

It could be argued that the state agents that prohibit westerners from venturing away from the designated path are complicit with the juche oppression.
It could be argued, but it could also be argued that the person arguing that is a fucking idiot.

Also, interesting that you believe that a "circle of cronies" and "loyal army officers" can create socialism. Please elaborate more on this groundbreaking new revolutionary theory.

[Dr Mindbender]

Also, interesting that you believe that a "circle of cronies" and "loyal army officers" can create socialism. Please elaborate more on this groundbreaking new revolutionary theory.

This isnt a theory. My point is, Im sure most North Koreans would genuinely like TDL out, but his 'dumb muscle' is preventing this. If they were no longer complicit with his regime, then the Juche system could be overthrown internally, by the people.

Surely youd agree this is the best solution for DPRK, yes?

[Wanted Man]

I always want the best for everyone, but I think your premise is wrong. It's not evident to me that the current conditions can be blamed on military strongmen. I also wouldn't mind if all the military officers of my country were to take a hike, but that doesn't mean a revolution would happen.

This is just a cynical analysis that belongs in the departments of jaded bourgeois "experts".

[cb9's_unity]

What I don't get is the obsession with tourism, with media, etc. It's like, oh, I can't go to the beach in North Korea in-between inspecting their factories to make sure they have workers' control, so that means it's not socialist. I'll just take a guess and say that the last thing on their mind is proving themselves to the kind of western leftist that judges the world through their tv and computer screen.

The fact is people go around saying NK is a socialist state or is heading toward socialism but the government is apparently viciously trying to hide it. Maybe if North Korea opened up some its society to be seen by the rest of the world then the rest of the world wouldn't see it as authoritarian. However all we see right now are extremely suspicious signs that NK is nationalistic and authoritarian. If a country were to actually become socialist and exist under workers control then it would be its duty to expose the more liberating system to the rest of the world. Capitalists can always use the line 'socialism always turns to dictatorship'. If NK were to simply reveal itself for what it 'really was' then the capitalists could no longer us the argument and the international socialist movement would only grow stronger.

Yet for some inexplicible reasoning North Korea keeps its 'democratic' society under wraps and viciously hides it from the rest of the world only ensuring it remains economically and ideologically isolated.

Do people now understand my suspicion and how ridiculous defense of North Korea begins to sound.

[Hiero]

I was using hyperbole to enforce my sentiment. You took it literally.

You have been doing that alot.

By the way, if the DPRK is in consistant famine due to political reasons because Kim Jong Il wants people to stave I have three question.

Why? If it comes down to personal choice there is no need to starve people and maintian power. Look at Hitler, he provided a whole new economy.

What is the solution? If it comes down to a bureaucratic error or in your belief the idea that it is done purposefully then surely there must be a political resolution.

And lastly, if the DPRK is in such a poor situation how can it fund a space program or yet build a nuke? If it is just the simple case as not spending revenue on food every poor country could do this, every tin pot dictator would be building all sorts of monuments and by shooting satellites into space every day of the week.

[Wanted Man]

The fact is people go around saying NK is a socialist state or is heading toward socialism but the government is apparently viciously trying to hide it. Maybe if North Korea opened up some its society to be seen by the rest of the world then the rest of the world wouldn't see it as authoritarian. However all we see right now are extremely suspicious signs that NK is nationalistic and authoritarian. If a country were to actually become socialist and exist under workers control then it would be its duty to expose the more liberating system to the rest of the world. Capitalists can always use the line 'socialism always turns to dictatorship'. If NK were to simply reveal itself for what it 'really was' then the capitalists could no longer us the argument and the international socialist movement would only grow stronger.

Yet for some inexplicible reasoning North Korea keeps its 'democratic' society under wraps and viciously hides it from the rest of the world only ensuring it remains economically and ideologically isolated.

Do people now understand my suspicion and how ridiculous defense of North Korea begins to sound.
Whatever. It's still a ridiculous line of argument. The priority for North Korea now is not to prove that they have perfect, democratic socialism to western leftists, and nobody claims that they have that. They're more interested in survival. It's actually a very sneaky way of arguing, because it appeals to the fact that we all support open borders, therefore North Korea should just open up and let any American journalist in (because they have an interest in objectively reporting on socialism???). In reality, it would be a one-sided "opening up", the walls of the imperialist fortress of the world would still be there, and North Korea wouldn't be allowed in until they privatise everything (good old shock treatment, like in Russia).

If you want North Korea to "prove" something, you should attack the governments that are restricting food aid. Because the US, South Korea, Japan and China are basically using food as a weapon to starve them into submission.

If it was possible to completely build up socialism in one isolated nation, with nothing to fear from the imperialists, then we wouldn't be having this conversation. It can make a lot of things reality, including a planned economy, and the recognition that food and healthcare are human rights. But there's a limit to it. Breaking them out of their encirclement is the only long term revolutionary alternative.

But maybe it's more comfortable for supposed socialists to believe any old big lie, and to kick them for resisting the worst circumstances possible. Someone above even suggested that the people who guide around the few tourists are "complicit"... That's right, blame the workers, especially the ones who are facing seemingly impossible obstacles.

Whose side are you all on, anyway?

[Sendo]

It's completely obvious that this imminent crisis in the DPRK is due to natural disasters as well as an attempt to leverage the starvation of the people of the DPRK by South Korea in order to grant political concessions. If any government is primarily to blame, it is that of South Korea.

Saying the South Koreans should be responsible for paying for North Korea's food is stupid. Is it because of the Korean War? That was between the Sino-Soviet camp and the US/UN mostly. Even still, that was WAY before Kim Jong-il.

But let us grant that South Korea as a political entity is "to blame". Making them pay for it is like asking Indonesia and the Phillipines et al to service debts on loans from years previous. South Korea has not asked for this problem. The current govt is tankish towards NK yes, but they are not responsible for the food supply.


And to those who defend the *current* DPRK. go check out some blog on a tourism trip to DPRK. It ain't pretty. Cuba on the other hand makes no secret about itself. NK has plenty of resources and had the UPPER HAND for DECADES AFTER the Korean War in terms of growth, GDP, and quality of life while the South suffered some of the most brutal US puppet dictators of all time.

K JI is incompetent. DPRK is now an autocracy run by an incompetent. Simple as that. Kim Il-sung succeeded in a much MORE hostile environment and his son's nation is getting into hissy fits like over everything and--as the Gaesong inter-Korean factory ordeal shows--it can't handle one iota of economic development.

And of course food aid is being used as a bargaining chip, what do you expect? You run your country into the ground with mismanagement and ridiculous expenditures like space programs and abducting movie directors then expect the world to bail you out of your problems because you can't provide enough food to your denizens to prevent mass-scale starvations?

I'm sick of ppl blaming every Korean catastrophe on natural disasters and bad luck. I don't recall China or the Soviet Union or Cuba having multiple famines. Maybe I missed the memo that stated every nation with word "people" in it was honest-to-God socialist. There are more economy types than just capitalism and socialism. Just b/c they don't have McDonald's doesn't mean they care about their workers any more.

[natacha]

Could you please provide starvation rates in the DPRK for the past three years? I am interested in your source. Also, could you please also provide some substantiation for the claim that such rates are due in large part to governmental policies?

I'm trying to post a link to a report from Amnesty International on starvation in North Korea but revleft say I need to have 25 posts before I can do that, but this is what it says


"3.1 Constraints within North Korea’s economic system
The food shortages in North Korea are partly a product of natural constraints and structural weaknesses. Limited arable land, relatively poor soil fertility and harsh climatic conditions restrict the capacity of the domestic agricultural sector to provide food security for the population. North Korean agriculture has also been built on the exploitation of land unsuited for agriculture, and energy-intensive forms of cultivation. Electricity was used extensively to power water pumps for irrigation and drainage.Tractors, and chemical fertilizers, particularly petroleum-based urea and ammonium sulphate, were heavily utilized.

3.2 The collapse of strategic economic ties with the former Soviet Union
The roots of the famine lay in a significant reduction in trade with the former Soviet Union and China in the early 1990s, which meant sharp cuts in heavily subsidised food, crude oil and equipment supplies to North Korea. North Korea’s energy infrastructure – thermal power plants, coal mines and hydroelectric plants – was built between the 1950s and the 1980s with significant technical and financial help from the Soviets and relied on imported oil and coal. By 1993, Russian exports to North Korea were less than 10 percent of 1987-1990 levels.

5.1 Discrimination and unequal access to food
The impact of food shortages on the North Korean population is uneven. The urban population, with the exception of residents of the capital city Pyongyang, are reportedly more vulnerable and dependent on the PDS than rural dwellers. In 2002-2003, an average urban family spent between 75 and 85 percent of their income on food, including purchases from the PDS and farmers markets. By contrast, state farmers were spending only a third of their incomes on food. These disparities are worrying as North Korea does not appear to have social safety net mechanisms to protect the vulnerable sections of society such as the elderly.
Remote regions, including the north-eastern provinces of North and South Hamgyong and Kangwon which have always suffered from food deficits because of the mountainous terrain and lack of agricultural land, have been most dependent on the PDS and were worst hit in the famine. However, in 1994, when the food shortages became serious, the authorities reportedly stopped PDS food supplies to these very provinces, at the same time as residents’ purchasing power was decimated by the collapse of local industries.
Many North Koreans are victimized because of their class and social status. Article 65 of the revised 1998 North Korean Constitution recognizes citizens’ rights to equality. However the government continues to use “the three class labels – ‘core’, ‘wavering’, and ‘hostile’ to prioritize access to education, jobs, residence permits, and entitlement to items distributed through the PDS.

The WFP has characterized the situation in North Korea since 1998 as a ‘food crisis’ and North Korea is a long way from reducing its dependence on food aid. According to the WFP, 6.5 million North Koreans (a third of the population) – mainly women and children – will require food assistance for the calendar year 2004. More than four out of every 10 children in North Korea suffer from chronic malnutrition. Women have been particularly affected by the famine and food crisis. In the 2002 Nutrition Assessment of the DPRK, a third of mothers who were surveyed were found to be malnourished and anaemic

4.4 Economic restructuring and agriculture, post-famine
The failure of the PDS to provide adequate food supplies to North Koreans was shown by the emergence of illegal farmers or consumers markets, with 300 in place by the late 1990s. These markets provided some 70-80 percent of food and other daily necessities to local and urban populations. In June 2003, in a significant market reform, the North Korean government officially recognized these farmers markets, which it allegedly sees as a temporary emergency measure, rather than a permanent solution to its problems.


I had to take all the references out because it won't let me post them before I have 25 posts and the whole report on North Korean starvation is about 20 pages long on their website.



ohhhh yeahhh its aaaaaalll lies

[KC]

ohhhh yeahhh its aaaaaalll lies




the food shortages in north korea have many causes including:


constraints within the country’s economic system
the collapse of strategic economic ties on which the economy depended following the break-up of the soviet union in 1991, and the decline in trade with china following its normalization of relations with south korea
natural disasters

[natacha]

You were asking for evidence of DPRK's policies' leaving people to starve, Amnesty notes that North Korea only let in aid in 1995 when the famines began in 1991, and shows how they distribute food unfairly according to how loyal you are to the party, probably your whole family too are affected by this label. Also "in 1994, when the food shortages became serious, the authorities reportedly stopped PDS food supplies to these very [mountainous] provinces, at the same time as residents’ purchasing power was decimated by the collapse of local industries... Access to state food supplies – including domestic agricultural production, imports and aid – is determined by status, with priority given to government and ruling party officials, important military units and urban populations, in particular residents of the capital Pyongyang" (where the rich live)

With aid, DPRK control aid so harshly that charities have pulled out. People all over the world know about north korea's famines, i'm sure many people would donate to charities focusing work there.



Humanitarian NGOs such as Médicins Sans Frontières (MSF),Oxfam,Action Contra La Faim (ACF), the Cooperative for Assistance and Relief Everywhere, Inc. (CARE),the U.S. Private Voluntary Organization Consortium (PVOC) and Médicins Du Monde (MDM) have withdrawn from North Korea, citing inadequate access and their consequent inability to account for the eventual use of their aid supplies.

Most of the food supplied by the WFP, the biggest humanitarian organization present in North Korea, is distributed through the PDS. Food supplied by Caritas which is targeted toward pregnant and nursing women is also distributed through the PDS. Some critics point out that the North Korean officials’ insistence that food aid be distributed through the PDS “provides a vehicle for control over distribution of the resources provided by the international community, reinforcing the existing institutional, regional, social biases of the North Korean system.”


“WFP has no information about the food situation of people living in the non-accessible counties, thus there is a concern that some very vulnerable people are left without assistance;
the Government still has not provided a comprehensive list of all institutions that benefit from WFP’s assistance, despite repeated requests;
WFP staff are not allowed to select interviewees at random;
WFP has recently been granted access to a consumers market in Pyongyang but does not have access to most consumer or state shops, which is indispensable to obtain complete information for its household food economy analyses.”

There's no freedom of movement, and since food provisions were stopped to 6% of the country, people were sent to prision camps if they were discovered to be on the move looking for food -


This permit system “had kept most people in their home villages most of their lives… [as] people did not receive their food ration unless they were in their home village. As the public distribution system collapsed, these regulations became far less effective at controlling population movements as people no longer relied on the state for food.” Reinforcing the system, on 27 September 1997, Chairman Kim Jong-il reportedly issued orders to all county administrators in each of the 211 counties to set up facilities, known as “927 camps” to forcibly confine those who were caught outside their village or city without a travel permit including those found illegally foraging for food. This exacerbated the effects of the famine and terrorised starving people who were scared to leave their towns to look for it. People were even banned for forraging in woods!

On recent policies ..



also "On 1 July 2002, economic reforms were announced which envisaged an average 20-fold wage increase for workers and an end to heavily subsidized rent. By ending state subsidies on some staple foods, including rice, the reforms also effectively increased their price by some 400 percent. Furthermore the salary increases promised by the government in July, in order to cushion the impact of higher prices have not arrived. "

[Josef Balin]

My point is, Im sure most North Koreans would genuinely like TDL out
And I'm positive they wouldn't (or not in anywhere near important statistics). Honestly, this alone proves you have no idea what you're talking about and are just talking out of your ass as you go along with it, please stop engaging in this debate like you have anything to add to it.

The people like Kim a lot. Mostly because inside the country he's seen as a skilled politiker and a continuation of the gains of the Korean Revolution that are still there. He's part of the bureaucratic class enriching itself at the hands of the proletariat, etc, but one thing he isn't is disliked.

[Dr Mindbender]

And I'm positive they wouldn't (or not in anywhere near important statistics). Honestly, this alone proves you have no idea what you're talking about and are just talking out of your ass as you go along with it, please stop engaging in this debate like you have anything to add to it.

The people like Kim a lot. Mostly because inside the country he's seen as a skilled politiker and a continuation of the gains of the Korean Revolution that are still there. He's part of the bureaucratic class enriching itself at the hands of the proletariat, etc, but one thing he isn't is disliked.

Ok, and his apparent popularity has nothing to do with the fact that no North Koreans have experience under a government ruled by anyone but the Kim Dynasty and the lack of an obvious replacement would lead to a power vacuum?