How can the BNP be defeated (the Socialist)

[Holden Caulfield]

http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/pic/1/1660.jpg









In the 2004 European elections the far-right, racist British National Party (BNP) received 800,000 votes, its best ever result. This time, against the background of the worst economic crisis since the 1930s and the deepening unpopularity of the government, there is a real danger that it will succeed in getting members of the European Parliament (MEPs) elected.

Hannah Sell examines the processes behind this development, and what is required to stop the BNP.

Over the last five years the BNP has increased its number of councillors to just under 50. To give a sense of proportion, this is out of a total of 22,000 councillors. Nonetheless, twelve years ago the BNP had no councillors. Plus, in the last London elections the BNP won a seat in the Greater London Assembly, its first ever above council level.

A further breakthrough in the European elections could represent a qualitative step forward for the BNP and would create the real possibility that - like the Front National in France, the Vlaams Belang in Belgium, or the Freedom Party and the Alliance for Austria's Future in Austria - it could become a party with a semi-stable mass electoral base.

In a bid to become more electorally popular, the BNP is attempting to disguise its fascist roots. In reality, however, its policies have changed little. It stands for "native Britains" to be given preference in housing, education and jobs. Nick Griffin, leader of the BNP and head of its European election list in the North West region, denies that the Holocaust took place.

Unsurprisingly, statistics show that where the BNP wins elections, increases in racial attacks follow. Racist attacks increased by 32% between 2002 and 2004 in Barking and Dagenham, east London, after the BNP began to build an electoral base.

No wonder that, for many workers and young people, the main issue in this European election is simply: 'how best can we stop the BNP?' However, to answer this question it is necessary first to answer another question - why has the BNP started to get far bigger votes than at any time in its history?
BNP vote

The answer does not lie primarily in the changes that the BNP has made to its image, but in the broader changes that have taken place in society and in politics. The overwhelming majority of BNP councillors represent working-class areas - in Bradford, Rotherham, Stoke-on-Trent, Barking and Dagenham - which previously had rock-solid support for Labour. Historically most workers saw Labour as 'their party'. Today, with Labour transformed into New Labour - an out-and-out party of big business - the working class has been left without a mass political voice.

For twelve years New Labour has continued with Tory policies. The government looked after the City - continuing the deregulation of big finance that began under the Tories - and has left working-class people struggling to make ends meet.

In Britain, in 2008, the gap between rich and poor was the second highest of any economically developed country in the world, surpassed only by the US. Now the capitalist 'free market' has entered its worst crisis since the 1930s, throwing millions who were already struggling, into absolute poverty. The response of the three pro-big business parties - New Labour, Lib Dem and Tory - has been to ask workers to pay for the crisis in the capitalist system, a system these parties support.

No wonder that a majority of working-class people feel utterly disillusioned with the establishment parties. With the BNP posing falsely as a party of the 'white working class' and as anti-establishment, a minority of working-class people are prepared to show their anger by voting for the BNP. A majority of potential BNP voters, do not agree with, or even know about, the BNP's far-right programme.
Anti-working class

In reality, far from defending working-class people, the BNP is anti-trade union and does not challenge the domination of Britain by a tiny, massively wealthy elite. The BNP was completely opposed to the historic miners' strike, demanding that the Thatcher government bring in the army to crush the strike. Today, the BNP opposes the right of most public sector workers to take strike action. Where the BNP has councillors it has repeatedly voted for cuts in services and for hikes in council tax - no different to the big three parties it claims to oppose.

Nonetheless, it has given itself a radical veneer on some issues, saying, for example, that it supports renationalisation of the railways and energy companies and 'socialism' in the NHS. In this election campaign it is particularly highlighting its slogan 'British Jobs for British Workers' - suggesting that, in contrast to Brown, "we mean it".

By doing so they are hoping to tap into the fears of millions of workers facing the threat of unemployment. This is also a disgraceful attempt to associate themselves with the magnificent Lindsey construction workers' strike, which far from dividing workers on nationalist lines, as the BNP attempt to do, brought workers of different nationalities together in struggle.

As The Socialist has explained, Lindsey strikers threw BNPers off their picket lines. Nor did the strike adopt the slogan: "British Jobs for British Workers", despite a few workers displaying it initially. The strike succeeded in defending jobs and trade union-agreed pay and conditions for all workers, regardless of national origin.

Two of the leaders of the Lindsey strike, alongside leaders of the Visteon car plant occupations and other workers involved in struggle, are standing in the European elections. They are standing for No2EU - Yes to Democracy, a pro-working class, anti-racist, internationalist electoral platform which was initiated by the RMT railway workers' union and has as one of its primary goals the undermining of the BNP.

Undermining the far right in Britain can only be achieved on the basis of the development of a genuine mass working-class alternative, combined with effective campaigning against the BNP. It is not a coincidence that in Germany the far right have not recently made breakthroughs comparable with many other European countries. The growth of the Left Party has succeeded, at least on the electoral plane, in cutting off the road, for the time being, to the far right. Whether this remains the case is not certain, depending on how the Left Party develops.

Unfortunately, the response to the BNP of the majority of the national trade union leaders in Britain has been limited to funding, and supporting the strategy of, the anti-BNP campaigns Unite Against Fascism, Hope not Hate, and Love Music Not Racism.

While these campaigns have organised concerts and other anti-racist activity which could, if part of a correct strategy, play a useful role in undermining the BNP, their political approach is counter-productive because they limit themselves to pleading with workers to simply vote against the BNP.

The clear implication is that people should instead vote for one of the three main parties, usually Labour. All three campaigns emphasise their support from politicians from Labour, Tory and Liberal Democrat. Hope not Hate also praises the neo-liberal, unelected, and deeply unpopular European Commission as an alternative to the BNP.

Far from undermining the BNP's vote, in some areas these campaigns, by mobilising the very forces that are driving some desperate people towards the BNP, could actually have the opposite effect. Particularly as Labour, facing electoral disaster in the European elections, is grasping at fear of the BNP as a means to try and shore up its vote. This will have an effect among some workers, but others will be repelled.
Labour's betrayal

It is New Labour's transformation into a party of big business which has left the space for the BNP to grow. No2EU is an attempt to create a left political alternative - both to the parties of big business and to the rabid far-right BNP.

New Labour politicians will undoubtedly argue that No2EU is splitting the anti-far right vote. But this argument, never valid, is particularly specious in the European elections where the electoral system means that the main way that the BNP will be prevented from winning a seat is by increasing the overall turnout.

Many who vote No2EU would not have been able to bring themselves to vote Labour, Liberal or Tory - even holding their noses - in the hope it would stop the BNP.

For the Socialist Party, No2EU is not only about this election. We see it as a potential step towards the creation of a mass political party that would represent the millions of workers, pensioners and young people who are facing increased hardship as a result of capitalist crisis.

[MilitantAnarchist]

There are other ways of defeating the BNP, none i am prepared to talk about online, but some great reading there.
They are gaining alot of support, in the last local elections they came 3rd round where i live, and i think we have one of the highest memberships here too... its pretty bad and they are fucking everywhere...

Any other antifascists from the Leicestershire area on here btw???

[Sean]

If you want to swap personal details, PM each other, keep it out of threads, thanks.

*No personal information*

[MilitantAnarchist]

yes boss lol
my appologies, was only a quick question :tt2:

[Pogue]

It'll be interesting to see how this lot do. I don't think electoralism solves anything, but I do hope No2Eu Yes to Democracy do well. They definatly have the best message and are the only group I could ever bring myself to vote for, as the article says, especially as their a left alternative to the big three and the BNP. I think the main thing they can do which will help is basically create a solid alternative to the fash, which will take the wind out of the BNP's sails and stop them gaining the confidence, opputunities, coverage and revenue a good result in this election would give them.

[rednordman]

I think the solution is actually rather simple, and I dont see why this has not started to happen already, but the actual progress of the opposition parties is snail pace.
Instead of putting all their eggs in one basket against the BNP (its like they think that by doing this, they will not have to speak for themselves), why dont the focus more on their own parties polices, so that they can offer people something that will appeal to them.

I think there seriously needs to be a strong socialist alternative.

Labours tactic of bombarding people with leaflets is not bad, but what have they got to show for their own party, what is so good about labour?-they need to show people that their party is the party that will fight for them and in their interests, NOT the riches interest (and they really shouldnt shit themselves at the prospect of facing up to the rich either). They should be advertising themselves for as a respectfull and powerfull alternative to absolute and complete toryism.

Incidentally, as you all know, the BNP actually make very good lackeys to the tories.

[rednordman]

It'll be interesting to see how this lot do. I don't think electoralism solves anything Sadly it doesnt, unless you are wealthy.

[Holden Caulfield]

It'll be interesting to see how this lot do. I don't think electoralism solves anything, but I do hope No2Eu Yes to Democracy do well. They definatly have the best message and are the only group I could ever bring myself to vote for, as the article says, especially as their a left alternative to the big three and the BNP. I think the main thing they can do which will help is basically create a solid alternative to the fash, which will take the wind out of the BNP's sails and stop them gaining the confidence, opputunities, coverage and revenue a good result in this election would give them.

I do not think this campaign will do as well as it should, or as it would. The campaign has been thrown together very quickly and with not much time left before the EP elections, also it is a new party (i say 'party' but i mean electoral coalition) and so lacks the voter bonds the other parties will have developed over time. Also the party is on a left wing platform and so has the misfortune to not have rich backers like the other major parties, the unions are largely not supporting us (the RMT have been great though) and all our campaign funding has came from the parties involved the RMT (and some others) and collections from supporters.

The small amount of funds available is further damaged by the fact the EP elections are biased towards the rich (those with vested interests to protect the system) and it costs £5000 to stand in each constituency, and the cost of getting our message out there is not cheap either, the party is relying heavily on the voulenteered time of grassroots supporters.

Even with all these points to make one pessimistic we should welcome this development with open arms, and I do urge British comrades to go out and vote for no2eu on the 4th of June.
This is because the BNP is growing due to the betrayal of Labour, the lack of an alternative and because they working class see nobody else working for them on issues they care about. Other antifascists like UAF are simply saying 'don't vote nazi' which is not an active way to build support or working class unity.
This campaign, is pro-worker, supported by unions, and is actively engaging the working class, showing them that we are fighting with them, that our fight is their fight, this is what will help raise class consciousness and this is what will effectively counter the far right.

All other communists talk of unity and cooperation, but this is the only example I see of it. In a coalition you will not agree 100% with your allys, and it is important that you do not enforce one view, the SP, CPB, and others in this coalition are a example to the rest of the left. Stop *****ing about each other, stop calling for unity as long as people agree with you, and get out there and fucking do something for your class.

no2eu is not on a Marxist program, but I hope for such coalitions in future elections, and for working class unity in face of attacks from the far right and the bastards in charge.

The EU is a failsafe to protect the capitalist system (i can explain why if people haven't had the misfortune to study it like I have, its a boring thing) and we should not support it.

vote no2eu on June 4th

(fucking hell i think i just made my first party broadcast on here, im gonna go clean myself, i feel so dirty)

[Killfacer]

Good idea, but the name is a bit crap. I'm glad someone is finally doing something like this as i think it's an extremely important part of combatting the BNP. Perhaps after this election, with a little more time to prepare (and a rebranding) they can really make a go of it.

[Melbourne Lefty]

I do not think this campaign will do as well as it should, or as it would. The campaign has been thrown together very quickly and with not much time left before the EP elections, also it is a new party (i say 'party' but i mean electoral coalition) and so lacks the voter bonds the other parties will have developed over time. Also the party is on a left wing platform and so has the misfortune to not have rich backers like the other major parties, the unions are largely not supporting us (the RMT have been great though) and all our campaign funding has came from the parties involved the RMT (and some others) and collections from supporters.

At least No2ID are doing something.

The problem will come with trying to hold together such a group after a disapointing result. Because quite frankly a broad left co-alition like this NEEDS to stay together to form the basis of a UK Der Linke. I seriously think that following the german left in this instance is a valid option. And perhaps the best one.


The small amount of funds available is further damaged by the fact the EP elections are biased towards the rich (those with vested interests to protect the system) and it costs £5000 to stand in each constituency, and the cost of getting our message out there is not cheap either, the party is relying heavily on the voulenteered time of grassroots supporters.

Time to start copying the BNP again. They managed a lot of money just from their grassroots.

Also other broad left anti-capitalist parties create fundraising systems aimed at the left liberal middle classes, most of whom would be receptive to a left message and also have a bit of dosh around.

[Holden Caulfield]

The problem will come with trying to hold together such a group after a disapointing result. Because quite frankly a broad left co-alition like this NEEDS to stay together to form the basis of a UK Der Linke. I seriously think that following the german left in this instance is a valid option. And perhaps the best one
The SP would love to form a pro-socialist coalition, I would love the likes of the SWP, Socialist Appeal, and all the other sects to form a federal coalition to more effectively fight for the rights of the working class and to counter the far right. But this will not happen at the moment. no2eu is not a socialist platform and so we do support it, we wouldn't stay in it for a long time.



Time to start copying the BNP again. They managed a lot of money just from their grassroots.

Also other broad left anti-capitalist parties create fundraising systems aimed at the left liberal middle classes, most of whom would be receptive to a left message and also have a bit of dosh around.

The left hardly ever copies the right, the grassroots activism of the BNP can be seen to be very similar to the actions of Militant back in the day. But the SP of today is not Militant of the past and we lack the manpower and resources to act like the old MT.

I would gladly take money of rich people to fund my campaign but i would much rather build real working class support, with many small donations coming from many members and supporters. It is a more inclusive and democratic way of opperating

[SmashTheFash123]

At least No2ID are doing something.

The problem will come with trying to hold together such a group after a disapointing result. Because quite frankly a broad left co-alition like this NEEDS to stay together to form the basis of a UK Der Linke. I seriously think that following the german left in this instance is a valid option. And perhaps the best one.


The problem is that with the electoral system used in the European Elections, unless this "NO2EU" party comes above the BNP, you might as well have not bothered voting at all. Worse, if NO2EU siphons votes about from the 3 mainstream parties, but fails to get above the BNP in their respect areas (North West, West Midlands, London, Yorkshire and Humber etc) then you have actually helped the BNP win seats by reducing the vote they need to secure representation.

It's a dangerous game NO2EU is playing here. The BNP got 6.4% of the vote in the North West last time. Given that the Labour Party has been given a kicking in the past 5 years, and the latest scandal about MP's expense, I think even the most optimistic of leftists will agree the BNP vote is going to rise.

Can NO2EU get something comparable to the 9% of the vote it would take to stop the BNP? My gut instinct says no. I doubt many people have even heard of them- but everyone in Britain has heard of the BNP, thanks to the media hype surrounding any election they take part in.

If this NO2EU party will absord some votes that would otherwise go to the BNP, then great. If it's just absorbing votes that would go to mainstream parties then that's not so good, as no way in hell is it going to get the 9% needed for a seat, and it will just make life easier for the BNP.

[bellyscratch]

The SP would love to form a pro-socialist coalition, I would love the likes of the SWP, Socialist Appeal, and all the other sects to form a federal coalition to more effectively fight for the rights of the working class and to counter the far right. But this will not happen at the moment. no2eu is not a socialist platform and so we do support it, we wouldn't stay in it for a long time.


As good as it would be, I can't see SWP being in involved in any socialist coalition. They'd rather build their own party up than go into another coalition after what happened with RESPECT.

[scarletghoul]

where will no2eu be on ballot?

[Holden Caulfield]

The problem is that with the electoral system used in the European Elections, unless this "NO2EU" party comes above the BNP, you might as well have not bothered voting at all. Worse, if NO2EU siphons votes about from the 3 mainstream parties, but fails to get above the BNP in their respect areas (North West, West Midlands, London, Yorkshire and Humber etc) then you have actually helped the BNP win seats by reducing the vote they need to secure representation.

It's a dangerous game NO2EU is playing here. The BNP got 6.4% of the vote in the North West last time. Given that the Labour Party has been given a kicking in the past 5 years, and the latest scandal about MP's expense, I think even the most optimistic of leftists will agree the BNP vote is going to rise.

Can NO2EU get something comparable to the 9% of the vote it would take to stop the BNP? My gut instinct says no. I doubt many people have even heard of them- but everyone in Britain has heard of the BNP, thanks to the media hype surrounding any election they take part in.

If this NO2EU party will absord some votes that would otherwise go to the BNP, then great. If it's just absorbing votes that would go to mainstream parties then that's not so good, as no way in hell is it going to get the 9% needed for a seat, and it will just make life easier for the BNP.

So we should not try to build left wing working class unity because it will damage the Labour Party?
The Labour Party is the creator of the BNP basically, without Labour the BNP wouldnt be in the position it is in.
We do not see 'lesser evil' politics as anything we should care about, and we are laying the foundations for working class fight back against the BNP and Labour.
We will probably not get a decent proportion of the vote for the reasons I have outlined, but what is important is that for the first time in years there is viable working class opposition to the pro-capitalists.


As good as it would be, I can't see SWP being in involved in any socialist coalition. They'd rather build their own party up than go into another coalition after what happened with RESPECT.
Indeed, however they could have been on board with this one if conditions had been different, but I do not think they will jump on board a federal left wing coalition anytime soon, but I think eventually they will have to face facts and persue working class unity through a federal coalition of leftwing parties, unions and campaigns.


where will no2eu be on ballot?
everywhere except Northern Ireland I think.

[scarletghoul]

Oh, cool. I know some people who could vote them

[SmashTheFash123]

So we should not try to build left wing working class unity because it will damage the Labour Party?
The Labour Party is the creator of the BNP basically, without Labour the BNP wouldnt be in the position it is in.
We do not see 'lesser evil' politics as anything we should care about, and we are laying the foundations for working class fight back against the BNP and Labour.
We will probably not get a decent proportion of the vote for the reasons I have outlined, but what is important is that for the first time in years there is viable working class opposition to the pro-capitalists.

I'd say it would be better to build this alternative after the European Elections have taken place, otherwise the only thing NO2EU will do is help the BNP win seats by diluting Labour's vote. Needless to say if the BNP win any seats at all it's a disaster for working-class solidarity.

Besides, from looking at the NO2EU manifesto i don't see how it's a party to represent the working class at all. Not that this really matters of course since they won't win seats anyway, and since you yourself admit they won't come above the BNP, all this party is doing is diluting the votes of the Labour Party and making it easier for the BNP to win seats.

I'll still be voting Labour, as they will actually come above the BNP and thus the vote will help keep the BNP out. Everyone pledging to vote for NO2EU should understand that if NO2EU comes below the BNP (which it will) then your vote will have no effect on the European Elections and you might as well have stayed at home.

If you can't bear to hold your nose and vote Labour, at least vote for the Green Party. They're fairly left wing and do have a chance at beating the BNP in the North West (though to be honest I'm skeptical about this, and remaining convinced a vote for Labour is the only way to keep out the BNP).

[Poppytry]

During economic down turns xenophobic views tend to creep up. British jobs for British workers etc.. If unemployment trends continue then there support will rise. When life is not going so dandy people blame the Government and so they see that the center cannot attend there needs, there views therefore polarize.. often too the right. :mad:

[teenagebricks]

I'd say it would be better to build this alternative after the European Elections have taken place, otherwise the only thing NO2EU will do is help the BNP win seats by diluting Labour's vote.
There will be no vote to dilute, Labour are gone.

Besides, from looking at the NO2EU manifesto i don't see how it's a party to represent the working class at all.
I don't know much about NO2EU, I won't be voting for them because I don't agree with some of their policies but with the union support they've got I can tell you with complete certainty that they do represent the working class.

I'll still be voting Labour, as they will actually come above the BNP and thus the vote will help keep the BNP out.
As much as I believe Labour are a necessary evil, I would only vote for them if they were the only left wing party on the ballot paper, okay, so Labour are not a left wing party, but I think you get what I'm saying.

Everyone pledging to vote for NO2EU should understand that if NO2EU comes below the BNP (which it will) then your vote will have no effect on the European Elections and you might as well have stayed at home.
This just isn't true, the BNP could win two seats and NO2EU could still manage to get one, the odds are slim, but it's not impossible.

If you can't bear to hold your nose and vote Labour, at least vote for the Green Party. They're fairly left wing
No.

I'm skeptical about this, and remaining convinced a vote for Labour is the only way to keep out the BNP).
As absurd as it may sound, and I'm very serious when I say this, but if you're really serious that you don't want to split the left vote, but still want to use your vote to fight the BNP, you should vote Tory, they're higher in the opinion polls than Labour and will surely do well in this election, they pose a bigger threat to the BNP than Labour and NO2EU combined. If you're going to use tactical voting, do it properly, NO2EU and SLP are the only working class options, if you don't want to vote with your heart, vote for whoever is going to come out above the BNP, there is no logic in voting for Labour at present, they are in too much of a dire situation.

[Pogue]

I think simply saying 'Vote Labour to keep the BNP out' misses the point of how the BNP rose so much in the first place.

No2EU is the first vaguely promising left group we have seen in a while. I'm not even old enough to vote but I'd vote for them if I did, they are for the working class and socialist.

[ls]

Good idea, but the name is a bit crap. I'm glad someone is finally doing something like this as i think it's an extremely important part of combatting the BNP. Perhaps after this election, with a little more time to prepare (and a rebranding) they can really make a go of it.

I'd say the name could potentially be a hit with voters. :P

[Holden Caulfield]

I wouldnt go as far as to call no2eu openly 'socialist', at least not what you or me would think 'socialism' to be but they are definately a progressive coalition, with working class based politics

[Pogue]

I also think the most important thing comrades need to note is how you'd ultimately defeat the BNP and fascism.

You'd need a militant and class conciouss working class. This is not reflected in the support a left wing party has, because true education comes through struggle. As one comrade noted to me recently, if you looked at the people on Communist marches in Germany prior to the communists all being killed or imprisoned by Hitler, alot of people were also on Nazi marches later on in the decade. Why? Because the working class will flock to the party they believe represents their interests. What with all the 'socialist' masquerading and rhetoric, the Nazis gained alot of this working class support as their movement grew.

You see, its not a matter of hoping people will vote for a left wing party consistently and thats that. Education in left wing politics which will move people away from the BNP permanently comes through struggle and realisation of their position as a class. Education doesn't come in permanence by making policies and hoping people agree with them ideologically and intellectually. It'd come through united struggle and demonstration of class positions and the positions of fascism in relation to the workers movement. Now, at the moment the BNP are the most visible party that isn't one of the out of touch big three and they use what is basically populist rhetoric that fits into the world view rammed down most people's throats - immigrants are taking voer the world, British jobs for british workers, etc. So alot of people vote for them because they think, 'Yeh they represent my interests as a British person'. Now we know this is wrong, but people follow it. How would we demosntrate otherwise?

Well, for example, imagine when you are trying to tell someone not too touch, say, hot water. You can say 'Don't touch it, it burns' as many times as you want. You can reinforce it and reinforce it and hope it sinks in. But its just words. It has no effect for alot of people. But if the person goes on to touch the water, and feels it burns, they realise, through experience, what the reality is. From then on, they'd listen, and even if everyone in the world said 'Touch the water, it doesn't burn, its nice and cool!' the person wouldn't listen. Because demonstration of the reality of the water has proven to them the reality - they have moved on from being fed information they are expected to passively absorb, they have educated themselves.

It is so with worker's ideologies. Voting, as when working class people vote BNP, is a passive act. They vote for whom says they are representing their interests. Now firstly at the moment up until now there has not been a major left challenge, an alternative, so the BNP has gained a foothold. Perhaps a left wing party, social democrats, will emerge, and perhaps begin to make gains against the BNP and get alot of working class support. But all it would take would be a change in circumstances - say, a terroist attack, or maybe the social democrat party doing what Labour did and betraying the workers, and suddenly people would listen to the BNP again. Why? Because people will follow periodically what they believe to be in their interests (which is obviously not the same as what is actually in their interests).

The difference with a revolutionary group, a worker run group, like a radical, grassroots union, a residences association, et al, is that the workers participate themselves. People strike alongside black workers, foreign workers, immigrant workers, and they see the reality of their situation. This cements the ideology in their head, because this is how class and revolutionary conciousness is developed - through active struggle in the realities of class. The fascists cannot contend with this - they scab, they attack the immigrants and the black people, the homosexuals. They rely on spreading lies and anger in the minds of desperate or confused people.

But they can never prove their claims to be true. Racial division will never prove to be a beneficial or nice thing. Class collaboration will never be a nice thing. Forced deportation will never be proved to be a good thing. The practical demonstration is not there because the reality is not there - immigrants will never 'take over' the country, as an example. The fascists rely on lies and anger, and cannot demonstrate things. They can only make their absurd claims in a vacuum and hope they sink in.

This is why our alternative should not be vainly hoping working class people will vote 'Not the BNP ever' because it wont happen like that. Its not how people's minds work. We have to practically demonstrate better politics, true politics, real working class politics. The politics of class struggle and mutual aid and solidarity and the natural struggle we are forced into. Our workers organisations will build up through working class action and the force of our movement will far out match any lies the fascists spread in their pathetic attempts to get votes on a reactionary ticket of racism and nationalism. Our struggles will be the practical demonstration of class solidarity.

This is how we will win, through class action and class unity and a demonstration of the natural realities of society - of a class society, where working class people, of whatever ethnicity, or sexuality are united together. This can only be acheived by active workers and practical demosntration - no one can do it for them, you cannot build a strong movement to fight fascism and capitalism permanently without this worker militancy, so the ideas of freedom and a just society are developed in people's heads through the natural motions of the struggle. The BNP cannot offer this, nor can the social democrats - only the revolutionaries can offer this, true working class power and unity, and practice and demonstration of this. This is what we must build in order to destory fascism and capitalism.

[SmashTheFash123]

There will be no vote to dilute, Labour are gone.

They'll still get about 20% of the vote in the European Elections, which is more than the BNP will get (and if not then we might as well fucking pack up and leave the country since the fascist revolution would be imminent).


This just isn't true, the BNP could win two seats and NO2EU could still manage to get one, the odds are slim, but it's not impossible.

For the BNP to get 2 seats in the North West (the area with the lowest % of the votes needed to get seats) they'd need 16%. No2EU would then need 9% to get a seat.

For a start, if the BNP got 16% of the vote in the North West that would be an absolute disaster. Secondly, 25% of the total vote won't go to the BNP/No2EU. You have to consider the Greens, UKIP, all the other little parties, as well as the 3 main parties.


No.

Why not? The Green Party has some very good left-wing policies.


As absurd as it may sound, and I'm very serious when I say this, but if you're really serious that you don't want to split the left vote, but still want to use your vote to fight the BNP, you should vote Tory, they're higher in the opinion polls than Labour and will surely do well in this election, they pose a bigger threat to the BNP than Labour and NO2EU combined. If you're going to use tactical voting, do it properly, NO2EU and SLP are the only working class options, if you don't want to vote with your heart, vote for whoever is going to come out above the BNP, there is no logic in voting for Labour at present, they are in too much of a dire situation.

All votes for parties that come higher than the BNP will negatively affect the BNP's chances of gaining a seat. In practice this means voting Labour or Conservative, as both will clearly beat the BNP in the elections.

As Labour are a little more left-wing than the Conservatives, vote Labour.


I think simply saying 'Vote Labour to keep the BNP out' misses the point of how the BNP rose so much in the first place.

True, but even though Labour have screwed up big time, I still don't want fascists getting £250,000 of taxpayers money each year.

Of course a true left-wing party with mass support would be great, but for now it's a case of voting for the lesser evil.

[teenagebricks]

They'll still get about 20% of the vote in the European Elections, which is more than the BNP will get (and if not then we might as well fucking pack up and leave the country since the fascist revolution would be imminent).
You mean the antifascist revolution? As they grow stronger, we grow stronger. Regardless, I wouldn't desert the country if there was a fascist revolution, I'd stick around and go down swinging.

Why not? The Green Party has some very good left-wing policies.
Not than I know of, last time I checked they supported private ownership and a market economy, sticking a solar panel on every roof in London is all well and good, but what about the working class?

As Labour are a little more left-wing than the Conservatives, vote Labour.

Of course a true left-wing party with mass support would be great, but for now it's a case of voting for the lesser evil.
A party like NO2EU can never gain mass support if everone just says "well maybe I'll vote for them when they're a big stronger", because they won't get stronger without your vote, no party starts out as a major unless it is formed as a result of a split in another major. The fact that you are touting the Greens and Labour over NO2EU raises serious questions as to what you consider to be left wing, so I'll vote for Socialist Labour. As small and insignificant as SLP may be, this is an ongoing struggle, you can't change society overnight, that's especially true in electoral politics, give a smaller party your support and someone like NO2EU may just come out on top in a decade or so.

[SmashTheFash123]

You mean the antifascist revolution? As they grow stronger, we grow stronger. Regardless, I wouldn't desert the country if there was a fascist revolution, I'd stick around and go down swinging.

Well this is largely irrelevant, as like i said, the BNP won't get more votes than Labour. However under such circumstances, if people are flocking to the right rather than the left, we wouldn't have enough strength to fight them. Therefore I'd abandon this country rather than be locked up in a concentration camp somewhere, thanks.


Not than I know of, last time I checked they supported private ownership and a market economy, sticking a solar panel on every roof in London is all well and good, but what about the working class?

Obviously they're still capitalist, but then again so is No2EU, and the Greens actually have a chance at beating the BNP. Greens have some good policies on rights for immigrants and refugees.


A party like NO2EU can never gain mass support if everone just says "well maybe I'll vote for them when they're a big stronger", because they won't get stronger without your vote, no party starts out as a major unless it is formed as a result of a split in another major. The fact that you are touting the Greens and Labour over NO2EU raises serious questions as to what you consider to be left wing, so I'll vote for Socialist Labour. As small and insignificant as SLP may be, this is an ongoing struggle, you can't change society overnight, that's especially true in electoral politics, give a smaller party your support and someone like NO2EU may just come out on top in a decade or so.

I'm against all electoral strategies anyway. All I'll do is vote to keep out the fascists. No2EU will not do this.

[Holden Caulfield]

Obviously they're still capitalist, but then again so is No2EU, and the Greens actually have a chance at beating the BNP. Greens have some good policies on rights for immigrants and refugees.

no2eu is a coalition of trade unions, and left wing groups, it is not 'capitalist' in the sense of the green party, perhaps it is 'social-democratic' but to labelled it capitalist and lump it with the Green Party is misleading.

The Greens do have eco-socialist elements, but the party is overwhelmingly pro-capitalist, thinking the capitalist system needs mild reforms to fit an environmentalist agenda. The eco-socialists in the Greens should leave, socialism comes before green issues, capitalism (a system driven by profit) cannot work for the environment. The Greens have in their time celebrated the loss of jobs in industrial sectors as they deem that sector to be pollution creating.

No left wing group would celebrate the loss of workers incomes.

On a less serious note but still a valid point: The Greens do not win over working class support either, the greens is for soya bean munching middle class do-gooders who read the guardian a little too much.


I'm against all electoral strategies anyway. All I'll do is vote to keep out the fascists. No2EU will not do this. Why? And can you not see you are defending the capitalist state by siding with them against fascists, it is classic popular front tactics and we all know how they have ended in history. We should try to build working class unity, class consciouness, and momentum, voting Labour will counter all of these things.