Am I lumpenproletarian?

[Bitter Ashes]

I'm typing this up knowing that the possible outcome is that I may end up restricted for opening my big mouth. Still, this is a question that's been gnawing at me for several weeks now and I dont think I'm going to rest easy until I get some kind of closure on this one way or the other.

The question is as above; Am I lumpenproletarian?

I'm going to attempt to bulletpoint things that might be useful in getting an assesment here:

- I have a part time job working as a cleaner in an office building. It brings in a pitiful ammount of money that doesnt even cover my rent. The remaining money I need comes from a combination of housing benefit and some petty crime. Even with this I'd describe my financial situation as "dire".

- Anything I might do that's illegal isnt directed against other members of the working class. In short, we're talking "victimless crime" here.

- Finding work is particually difficult due to a high degree of employer discrimination against me. I'm also convinced that I'm on a blacklist.

- I do consider myself to be highly concerned about others' difficulty, but at the same time I'm unprepared to take risks that may make my own situation even worse. It is a concern of mine that it's possible that if I couldnt see any possible victory in a strike action and if my job was threatened I'd scab to avoid ending up homeless again.

- I see socialsm worth working towards at least partially because I can see it benefitting myself and getting me out of this mess. At the same time, I'd hope that if my situation improved, I'd never forget these years where my life has been a frightening mix of running away from debts and even having my health seriously impacted on and work towards making sure that nobody else falls into that pit like I did. I cant be sure though as the only time I've been okay for money was when I was with the military and I know I had little active consideration for others in poverty at that point.

- I'm working activly towards socialism because I see it as the most likely way that anything's going to get sorted for me. Basicly, I've given up on getting anything helpful from the bourgeois and I've started seeing that the only way forward is from putting power in the hands of people who actualy give a damn about my welfare as a worker.

*looks at what she's typed*
I dont think it looks good tbh :crying:
*starts packing her bags*

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Why would you think you are lumpen? It seems you are in quite an undesirable position and I can't see why anyone would judge you for the things you have done.

[NecroCommie]

Who is lumpen?

[Red_Demoness]

You have no choice. Under unfair circumstances, you do what you must, and even then, you do it as responsibly as you can.

If you enjoyed crime and felt no guilt in harming the welfare of other workers in order to make benefit to yourself, then you would be lumpenproletariat.

"The 'dangerous class', [lumpenproletariat] the social scum, that passively rotting mass thrown off by the lowest layers of the old society, may, here and there, be swept into the movement by a proletarian revolution; its conditions of life, however, prepare it far more for the part of a bribed tool of reactionary intrigue."
(From the Communist Manifesto, by Karl Marx)

This is not what you are. Good luck, and take care.

[Sean]

The union rep at the place I worked who scabbed because the bosses announced an increase for the workers at his level is what I consider lumpen, along with organised or habitual criminals with options out of that lifestyle. By the standards you seem to be setting yourself we could consider the third world lumpen!
No you are not Ramna, and regard with suspicion anyone who claims to be socialist for purely altruistic reasons. They're either liars, complete fantascists or using it as a surrogate for their own issues, ie fluffy. If capitalism gave everyone what they needed, everyone would be a capitalist, simple as.

[LeninBalls]

What petty crime do you do?

[Rjevan]

Oh Ranma, you're really too self-critical! :(
No, you're not lumpen, why do you think that? Because of your "petty crime"? As long as you don't harm people of the working class or poor people, what's the matter? No cappie will die of hunger because you stole a chewing gum from your local store or things like that. ;)

You are seriously thinking that finding no work and therefore not contributing to society makes you lumpen? Hell, it's not your fault if you are not employed! I read how you lost your yob in that store and be assured, you did nothing wrong! Again, it's not your fault if you seriously try but get no job!


I do consider myself to be highly concerned about others' difficulty, but at the same time I'm unprepared to take risks that may make my own situation even worse. It is a concern of mine that it's possible that if I couldnt see any possible victory in a strike action and if my job was threatened I'd scab to avoid ending up homeless again.

This is sad but well, I guess it's easy to shout around that I would take every risk and never give up at a strike if I'm not really confronted with this situation and am not in danger of loosing everything. I understand that it helps nobody if you will lose your job just because of a totally hopeless strike, it's a different situation if I support some worker in a strike that has nothing to do with me directly or if my very own existence is in danger as it seems to be with your financial situation. Again, of course it would be better if you support the strike even if there's little hope but I guess it's only natural to not risk everything without even seeing a chance for success.


I see socialsm worth working towards at least partially because I can see it benefitting myself and getting me out of this mess. At the same time, I'd hope that if my situation improved, I'd never forget these years where my life has been a frightening mix of running away from debts and even having my health seriously impacted on and work towards making sure that nobody else falls into that pit like I did. I cant be sure though as the only time I've been okay for money was when I was with the military and I know I had little active consideration for others in poverty at that point.
See? This is something a lumpen would not care about at all. There always is the danger of forgetting how bad things were if your situation improves but I think it needs a very different personality than yours to not care about others as soon as your situation is fine. Sadly many people only become aware of the need of a change in society after they experienced the problems and the suffering themselves but this doesn't mean that these people are less than somebody who lives in quite wealthy circumstances and cares for others nevertheless. You're only less if you betray your old ideas, values and beliefs as soon as your wealth grows but again, this is a different kind of personality than you seem to be, judging from your posts. :)


I'm working activly towards socialism because I see it as the most likely way that anything's going to get sorted for me. Basicly, I've given up on getting anything helpful from the bourgeois and I've started seeing that the only way forward is from putting power in the hands of people who actualy give a damn about my welfare as a worker.

I don't expect anything helpful from burgeoisie, too, and I'm pretty sure I am no lumpen.
The question is: are you only working towards socialism because of your bad situation or do you want to improve the situation of others as well?

I think you already gave the answer, so please, unpack your bags and stay with us... and please, don't worry yourself useless about things that are no reason to be worried about. ;)

[Bitter Ashes]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I'll be honest. I was expecting a long trip to the OI until I got myself a proper job, so I guess it's good to have it in the open and know I'm not trying to have to hide something all the time. I suppose that's what the learning forum's about, right? :blushing:

There was a couple of questions though:

LeninBalls: [snip! - ADMIT NOTHING!] - Sean

Rjevan: It's an "as well" answer, but the part that bothers me is that I wonder if it's more of an "as well, only if..." situation. I dont know for sure and I hope it's not, but I'd only ever know really if my life had improved.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Ranma, what can I say, it sounds terrible what has happened to you. Anyone would act the same as you did under your circumstances.

[Velkas]

Ranma, what can I say, it sounds terrible what has happened to you. Anyone would act the same as you did under your circumstances.
That was almost word for word exactly what I was about to say.:lol:

[F9]

Why thing that we would restrict you for not doing a "proper job"?Whats a proper job?None job currently exists isnt proper in our eyes, those arent jobs, but oppressions of the worker!So no working dont makes you "bad", and especially work a bit dont.I cant see why we would restrict someone under such cases.Tbh if that would be the case, i wouldnt be around so no dont "worry", what you are doing is about you and has absolutely nothing to do with a decision of restriction, and i cant see why we would restrict you!
Maybe you are saying this becasue Marx said that Lumpenproletarians are counter-revolutionaries etc etc bullshit, you know what, Marx is Marx, a person, not a god that knew everything and we are following his words like religious idiots do.There was a person some time ago that supported the above quote of Marx stating that he is an "orthodox marxist":rolleyes: and was kicked out of the CC for his idiocy!So no dont worry!If anyone tells you that you are an OI for that, just tell them to fuck off!!
I would suggest you editing out your above paragraph answering to LeninBalls, such things could get you in trouble without even you knowing it, and i would suggest people avoid such conversations, and making such questions that can get co-members in trouble.Im not editing your post, as i think you will understand it and remove them yourself!:)

Fuserg9:star:

[Stranger Than Paradise]

That was almost word for word exactly what I was about to say.:lol:

:lol: I'd like to think everyone on here would say the same...

[Sean]

I would suggest you editing out your above paragraph answering to LeninBalls, such things could get you in trouble without even you knowing it, and i would suggest people avoid such conversations, and making such questions that can get co-members in trouble.Im not editing your post, as i think you will understand it and remove them yourself!:)

Fuserg9:star:

Heh, I already did it. Say nothing on a page that google crawls, it could come back to bite you on the ass some day.

And as fuserg9 says, not everyone applies Marxs' thoughts on the lumpenproletariat. In my opinion its something that the early marxists caved on, or stepped around so that everything he said wouldnt be just dismissed as pro-criminal. Had the issue been properly analysed it would have been a different matter.

[Bitter Ashes]

Thanks. I was about to do that after reading Fuseg9's post and you beat me to it :blushing:

[#FF0000]

I don't think we restrict anybody for being lumpen. :tt2:

And even if you weren't a through-and-through proletarian, we wouldn't restrict you. Marx and Engels were petite-bourgeois, for example. One can be of a different class and still fight in the interests of the working class.

[#FF0000]

what petty crime do you do?

Pig question!

[gorillafuck]

What petty crime do you do?
I don't really think it fucking matters. Why would you ask this?

You're not a lumpen (you wouldn't get restricted even if you were). And you also get my deepest sympathies and I hope you can get out of this mess:(

[thejambo1]

definately not "lumpen", stick on in there and hope you come out the other side. plenty of good people on here to talk things through with.