To Pro-Thatcherites

[Angry Young Man]

Why do you focus entirely in the south of England? It's one sole area of the country, which is very small in comparison to damage done in South Wales, the Midlands, the North, Scotland and Northern Ireland.

How do you defend an administration that increased actual poverty?

NB: this isn't a *****ing. I'm really curious.

[Self-Owner]

I'm by no means a pro-Thatcherite, but I would defend (for the most part) what I take to be her views on nationalized industries like mining.

For a start, I don't think it's right to think of the 'damage done' (by which I take you to mean closing the mines in particular) in the North as actually imposing damage on people. What you have to realize is the mines were only able to continue operating at the cost of expropriating the fruits of the labour of taxpayers who were actually producing something of value to other people - and in that sense, shutting them down was not inflicting damage on people in the North but rather stopping them from taking resources unjustly.

And I'm not sure what makes you think absolute poverty increased, either.

[Nulono]

"The problem with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money"

Seems like she doesn't understand socialism.

[Forward Union]

"The problem with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money"

Seems like she doesn't understand socialism.

I think she probably did understand socialism perfectly well. One of the first rules of political engagement is to make sure you define your enemies politics before they do. In other words, "socialists believe this..." needs to be said before "we believe..."

This has been done quite effectively by the ruling class.

[graffic]

You have to break a few eggs to make a good omelette.

There is no way of making progress in industry and moving forward without a few economic casualties.

I hate Thatcher because of her social beliefs but people who support her will point you in the direction of the dramatic industry transformation that took place when she was in power. The public was fed up with the puerile, over powerful trade-unions and it seemed Britain was on the road to know where. British politics is so boring, it just goes in cycles. Tory's move economy forward and divide the nation, Labour unite the nation and grab big business by the balls until people get bored.

[Forward Union]

You have to break a few eggs to make a good omelette.

There is no way of making progress in industry and moving forward without a few economic casualties.

I hate Thatcher because of her social beliefs but people who support her will point you in the direction of the dramatic industry transformation that took place when she was in power. The public was fed up with the puerile, over powerful trade-unions and it seemed Britain was on the road to know where. British politics is so boring, it just goes in cycles. Tory's move economy forward and divide the nation, Labour unite the nation and grab big business by the balls until people get bored.

cool story bro.

[Pogue]

You have to break a few eggs to make a good omelette.

There is no way of making progress in industry and moving forward without a few economic casualties.

I hate Thatcher because of her social beliefs but people who support her will point you in the direction of the dramatic industry transformation that took place when she was in power. The public was fed up with the puerile, over powerful trade-unions and it seemed Britain was on the road to know where. British politics is so boring, it just goes in cycles. Tory's move economy forward and divide the nation, Labour unite the nation and grab big business by the balls until people get bored.

clearly you have a intelligent view of politics completely distinguishable from everyone else brought up in tory households

[Bud Struggle]

Shee's been gone from her PMship quite a while. Is she still a driving force in British politics?

[graffic]

clearly you have a intelligent view of politics completely distinguishable from everyone else brought up in tory households

It's a rational view, not particularly intelligent I understand. I don't even like the view, but it's a million miles more logical than communism, in that it makes sense, and it's been proven to make sense + work in practice.

[Forward Union]

Shes not TomK no, shes far to frail. Shes been in the news a couple of times, mourning the death of her best friend and mass murderer general Pinochet, and also when her statue got decapitated the day after its unveiling.

Large parties have been planned for her death, but allthough the current labour party is considered thatcher, or neo-thatcherite, she has no personal influence over contemporary politics. As far as I know.

[MikeSC]

No personal influence, but all three of our parties are Thatcherite. We have Labour, who have been Thatcherite for a decade and a half (although now it's all unravelling, the media are discovering that they were socialist after all and the cure is more Thatcherism!) The Tories, who are of course Thatcherite. And the yellow Tories, the Lib Dems.

EDIT:


It's a rational view, not particularly intelligent I understand. I don't even like the view, but it's a million miles more logical than communism, in that it makes sense, and it's been proven to make sense + work in practice.

It makes no sense, and has proven disastrous.

[Qwerty Dvorak]

The only people who are still hung up on Thatcher are the far left. Everyone else has forgotten about her.

[MikeSC]

The only people who are still hung up on Thatcher are the far left. Everyone else has forgotten about her.

Don't you read the news? The last week has seen a ton of Thatcher articles in every newspaper, it's the 30th anniversary. Plus the fact that all three parties are ideological Thatcherites.

[Qwerty Dvorak]

Don't you read the news? The last week has seen a ton of Thatcher articles in every newspaper, it's the 30th anniversary. Plus the fact that all three parties are ideological Thatcherites.
Yeah, we have seen articles about her because it is the 30th anniversary. If you read the news at any other time you'll scarcely find a mention of her.

And far leftists calling all the mainstream political parties Thatcherites is just like Austrian schoolers and Randites calling all the mainstream parties communist or socialist.

[MikeSC]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thatcherism#Thatcher.27s_legacy

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/themargaretthatcheryears/1895878/Margaret-Thatcher-inspiration-to-New-Labour.html

From just before it all went wrong, the Telegraph was still describing Labour as Thatcherite.

Just a simple Google should suffice, there's tons.

[Bud Struggle]

FWIW: Ronald Reagan is long dead but his political influence is still felt pretty strongly--but not by the Left in America. He's used as a touchstone for the "good old days" for the Right wind of the Rebublican Party.

[Demogorgon]

Shee's been gone from her PMship quite a while. Is she still a driving force in British politics?
She barely knows who she is anymore and hasn't taken part in politics for several years, but her legacy is still a driving force for the Tory right and the damage she did is still being felt.

She was a truly despicable woman, I have to say. Some of the stuff she did was unforgivable.

[Pogue]

The only people who are still hung up on Thatcher are the far left. Everyone else has forgotten about her.

Except for all the people who suffered under her, like the millions of people who were and in some cases still are in unions.

Also, those being fucked by her legacy, New Labour.

[Pogue]

It's a rational view, not particularly intelligent I understand. I don't even like the view, but it's a million miles more logical than communism, in that it makes sense, and it's been proven to make sense + work in practice.

No, it hasn't.

Communism makes alot of sense to me, and its been proven to make sense and work in practice.

Do I get a prize?

[Matty_UK]

I'm by no means a pro-Thatcherite, but I would defend (for the most part) what I take to be her views on nationalized industries like mining.

For a start, I don't think it's right to think of the 'damage done' (by which I take you to mean closing the mines in particular) in the North as actually imposing damage on people. What you have to realize is the mines were only able to continue operating at the cost of expropriating the fruits of the labour of taxpayers who were actually producing something of value to other people - and in that sense, shutting them down was not inflicting damage on people in the North but rather stopping them from taking resources unjustly.

And I'm not sure what makes you think absolute poverty increased, either.

I'm sorry but you really don't know what you talking about, and this pissed me off so much. You have NO IDEA the sort of shit that went on during the miners strike - it was an aggressive paramilitary police force occupying hundreds of working class communities who were given the guarantee by Thatcher personally that they won't be prosecuted for any violence. They were even mercenaries involved disguised as police. Aside from all the violence they inflicted at the picket lines, police would storm into local pubs in the pit villages and beat up all the men to wear down their resolve and determination. You seriously have no fucking clue about it. People who were involved in are still literally brought to tears or a fit of rage when the subjects brought up. Some kids still won't speak to classmates whose dad was a scab or a cop.

And the effect of closing the pits was terrible. A lot of these pit villages have unemployment rates of up to 40%, and massive problems with heroin because the black economy is the only way to survive. The miners knew this would happen which is why they put up with humiliation, violence, and incredible personal sacrificie for a full year to trry and save their communities. The privatisation of the council houses has resulted in corrupt gangster slumlords who let the housing rot and leave empty houses around. In Gateshead where I'm from, there was an attempt at rent strike by tenants so dozens of thugs from the local gang dragged them from their homes at night and smashed all their windows. I don't know whether it's true or not but everyone who remembers believes the Tory government was involved in sanctioning that in some way, and considering the dodgy characters they were using to repress the miners I can believe it.

So shut the fuck up about it not imposing damage on people, you don't know how ignorant that makes you sound.

And also, growing up with stories of Thatcherism (my dad lost his job when she closed the factory where he worked, just after my mam had given birth to me, her second child) is without a doubt the reason that I became a communist.

[Matty_UK]

The only people who are still hung up on Thatcher are the far left. Everyone else has forgotten about her.

Utter garbage. Most working class northerners with any political interest at all will go off on a rant at the mere mention of her name.

(actually, this thread has got me seething with rage already. it's so frustrating, if all the middle class had any fucking idea-not just knowledge but actually fully understanding the human affect-about the sort of stuff that happened because of Thatcher I don't think anyone would support capitalism)

[Matty_UK]

You have to break a few eggs to make a good omelette.

There is no way of making progress in industry and moving forward without a few economic casualties.

I hate Thatcher because of her social beliefs but people who support her will point you in the direction of the dramatic industry transformation that took place when she was in power. The public was fed up with the puerile, over powerful trade-unions and it seemed Britain was on the road to know where. British politics is so boring, it just goes in cycles. Tory's move economy forward and divide the nation, Labour unite the nation and grab big business by the balls until people get bored.

By "the public" I assume you mean well-to-do, comfortable, middle class southerners?

What dramatic industry transformation? She destroyed industry and any semblance of job security. The unemployment rate post-Thatcher is actually way higher than official statistics make it appear, because it doesn't include all those who are stuck in part-time work but looking for full-time, and the massive increase in people going into higher education throughout the 90s is an affect of the shrinking job market, a delaying tactic to keep people out of it as long as possible and hide it's weakness.

[Angry Young Man]

The only people who are still hung up on Thatcher are the far left. Everyone else has forgotten about her.

Balls. Left Social Democrats are also still hung up about her. And yes, the damage is still there. You wouldn't notice coming from the South-East of England, but it is. Suppose that the coal industry was in terminal decline (much evidence says that it was not), the tories went about it in a totally socially abandoned way. And her and Reagan's economic blueprints are what led to the current recession.

[ls]

And yes, the damage is still there. You wouldn't notice coming from the South-East of England, but it is.

That's completely incorrect. You can pretty much notice it everywhere you go, people are always talking about her legacy then getting peed off. To be honest it's pointless and I'd much rather focus on the current lot we have in now; she's decrepit and will never return to politics. The whole Blairite/Brownite thing has created so much discord among the left, at least under her, there was a point where the left was united against the state during the miner's strikes. Biases about southern englanders being posh are pretty irritating.

[Qwerty Dvorak]

This must be another thing where all the media, all the people I've met from England and generally everyone except the far left is in a conspiracy to suppress the fact that everyone is still psychotically obsessed with Thatcher.

[Matty_UK]

This must be another thing where all the media, all the people I've met from England and generally everyone except the far left is in a conspiracy to suppress the fact that everyone is still psychotically obsessed with Thatcher.

Facebook group - "We'll only pay for a state funeral for Thatcher if she's buried alive" http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/group.php?gid=19640827930 15,596 members

The biggest socialist group I could find has 5,000+ members, and is not specific to Brits unlike this group, so it's clearly not just the far left who are "psychotically obsessed" with Thatcher.

And you clearly haven't met anyone from a former pit village or factory town-they hate Thatcher whether they are interested in politics or not, if you've met people from England who don't care they are most likely middle class people who weren't affected much, too young to have been around and understood it, and not interested in politics enough to know about what happened.

To give you an idea of the sort of mood there was in the pit villages, let me point you to the wiki page for Chopwell, a pit village where lots of my former classmates were from-

"Chopwell is a village in Tyne and Wear (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyne_and_Wear), located approximately three miles west of Rowlands Gill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rowlands_Gill) and one mile north of Hamsterley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamsterley,_Consett).
Traditionally an area of coal mining (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_mining), Chopwell was nicknamed "Little Moscow" because of the strong support for the Communist Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Great_Britain). Chopwell counts "Marx Terrace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Marx)" and "Lenin Terrace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Lenin)" among its street names.
In 1974, Chopwell controversially became part of the metropolitan county (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_and_non-metropolitan_counties_of_England) of Tyne and Wear (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyne_and_Wear) and the metropolitan borough of Gateshead (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_borough_of_Gateshead), after previously being part of the administrative county (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administrative_counties_of_England) of Durham.
Chopwell is currently home to over 3,000 people."

The changing of some of the main road's names to Marx and Lenin Terrace was done by locals during the miner's strike who at that point had 90%+ support for the Communist Party, and also the village banner has a picture of Marx and Lenin. There was a similar mood in other pit villages across Yorkshire and the North East. People from these sort of places or thereabouts all despise Thatcher, and at the school I went to Thatcher's name was generally used to be synonymous with evil.

[Qwerty Dvorak]

Yeah alright I was just trying to wind you up. I apologize.

[graffic]

By "the public" I assume you mean well-to-do, comfortable, middle class southerners?

What dramatic industry transformation? She destroyed industry and any semblance of job security. The unemployment rate post-Thatcher is actually way higher than official statistics make it appear, because it doesn't include all those who are stuck in part-time work but looking for full-time, and the massive increase in people going into higher education throughout the 90s is an affect of the shrinking job market, a delaying tactic to keep people out of it as long as possible and hide it's weakness.

Why do you make it regional and say "Southerners". Pretty much everyone who benefitted from Thatcherite policies admired her and everyone who had a hard time despised her.

You talk as if the majority of middle and lower class britons hated her. The biggest selling daily newspaper along with the rest of the right wing press loved her.