Forming a Revolutionary Army

[Oktyabr]

I've been thinking...

Most of us are in the first world, participating in rallies, demonstrations, and other such events. However, I think much of our focus (thats just the way it looks to me, tell if it is otherwise) seems to be at home or in other countries in the first world. All while thousands of poor people across capitalist Asia and Africa starve to death.

If there is ever to be a world revolution, I believe that we have to work our way up, i.e. taking the fight from the third world to the first world. To do this, we would have to begin organizing what would result in an international global army (think the International Brigades but better trained and equipped).

[Oktyabr]

It sounds ridiculous and impossible, but what are the chances of a better world if we do not fight for one? If we began to organize capable men and women, with effective training in irregular warfare, and we receive the funding necessary to pay for our equipment and transport, along with strong organization and coordination of forces, these brigades could stand a fighting chance against hated regimes in the poor nations of the world (think the Philippines). I know I sound like a lunatic, but if you would consider the impracticality or practicality please tell me what you think. Just keep your response civil and respectful.

[Blackscare]

Armies need massive amounts of money to keep them functioning, as well as a physical base of operations. No nation on earth would tolerate a (truly) revolutionary army base on it's soil or in neighboring regions. The whole idea seems fanciful.

Also, I disagree with the idea of "working up". First, it presumes that we as westerners can pull strings and decide to create a revolution for the people in the third world at a whim, which is condescending to say the least.

And this is itself based on another condescending notion; that through the creation of an army we can stimulate true social revolution. Revolution wont come from "without", and I don't just mean from foreign soldiers; I'm referring to elements that are not from within the working class itself even if they were from the same nation or ethnic group. As my sig says: "The Mass is the maker and leader of its own fight."

Also, it puts world socialist revolution at a huge disadvantage to leave the strongest imperialist powers intact the longest. There are those that would debate me on this, but I tend to think that authentic communist revolution must happen in highly industrialized countries first, because they have the needed infrastructure and they are the modern day hotbeds of oppression and imperialism whose neutralization would open the way for socialist movements elsewhere.


There are many valid revolutionary theories, but I think it's safe to say that a bunch of western yahoos with AK's flying into the Third World would be one of the left's more embarrassing episodes to date.

[Oktyabr]

Armies need massive amounts of money to keep them functioning, as well as a physical base of operations. No nation on earth would tolerate a (truly) revolutionary army base on it's soil or in neighboring regions. The whole idea seems fanciful.

Also, I disagree with the idea of "working up". First, it presumes that we as westerners can pull strings and decide to create a revolution for the people in the third world at a whim, which is condescending to say the least.

And this is itself based on another condescending notion; that through the creation of an army we can stimulate true social revolution. Revolution wont come from "without", and I don't just mean from foreign soldiers; I'm referring to elements that are not from within the working class itself even if they were from the same nation or ethnic group. As my sig says: "The Mass is the maker and leader of its own fight."

Also, it puts world socialist revolution at a huge disadvantage to leave the strongest imperialist powers intact the longest. There are those that would debate me on this, but I tend to think that authentic communist revolution must happen in highly industrialized countries first, because they have the needed infrastructure and they are the modern day hotbeds of oppression and imperialism whose neutralization would open the way for socialist movements elsewhere.


There are many valid revolutionary theories, but I think it's safe to say that a bunch of western yahoos with AK's flying into the Third World would be one of the left's more embarrassing episodes to date.

yeah, perhaps this is really a farce. I had a feeling it was ridiculous.

However,

Once the imperialist nations have hardly any more poor nations to exploit, how will they make a profit? They will either be forced to hyper-exploit a small group of countries or face the failure of their economy. Either one would provoke a revolution, as a country obviously being abused will not tolerate it if its people have the guts to stand up for themselves, and the failure of the economy of a major capitalist power would prove how abusive, controlling, and weak capitalism really is.

[Blackscare]

I'd say it'd lead to a more intense form of foreign policy pursued during the cold war, military interventionism. Even if they could be beaten back, the price would be enormous. The war in Vietnam for instance, while ultimately won by the North, was devastating for the economy there (not to mention the human cost).

Massive imperialist forces can and will bomb small socialist countries "into the stone age", if it means protecting global hegemony. Not to mention the economic isolation and manipulation that they are capable of using to force smaller countries into capitulation.

[Oktyabr]

I'd say it'd lead to a more intense form of foreign policy pursued during the cold war, military interventionism. Even if they could be beaten back, the price would be enormous. The war in Vietnam for instance, while ultimately won by the North, was devastating for the economy there (not to mention the human cost).

Massive imperialist forces can and will bomb small socialist countries "into the stone age", if it means protecting global hegemony. Not to mention the economic isolation and manipulation that they are capable of using to force smaller countries into capitulation.

If we are afraid of high costs, I'm suprised any of us would ever consider revolution.

I think that if surrounded by socialist countries, the U.S. forces would be spread out too thin to be as much of a threat.

[Oktyabr]

Also. I might add, that many of the people in Africa are too poor an uneducated to know of a life outside of capitalism. If someone who could make a passionate and spirit raising speech to the people of these countries, then maybe they receive the right influence and could stir a revolution up themselves. These people need our help, we don't have to make the revolution ours, but should we really continue to draw national lines even when the fight is a global one?

[Blackscare]

If we are afraid of high costs, I'm suprised any of us would ever consider revolution.

I think that if surrounded by socialist countries, the U.S. forces would be spread out too thin to be as much of a threat.


It's not a question of being afraid, it's a question of practicality. Personally, I think it's more practical and logical to approach from a perspective based on revolution in world industrial centers.


In reference to your post below this, there certainly are/have been socialist movements all over Africa. There's nothing a "stirring speech" by a couple of foreigners could do that African socialists haven't been able to. If you think that lack of proper education always prevents socialist revolution, you should research the conditions of many workers in the 19th century who still managed to achieve class-consciousness and educate themselves.

I don't think you're going to be able to go off to Africa and enlighten the locals about some ideology they've never encountered before. The reasons it hasn't taken root there are many of the same reasons it hasn't elsewhere: those reasons are much more complex than the level of basic education provided or poverty (if anything, extreme poverty is stimulus for revolution).

[Linkse-Denker]

so actualy you say: If there is an revelution in the third world. You can work it up to the western county's?
Hope that is possible. If a revelution in the third world will help to get an revelution in the western country's so communism will spread out.
But I don't think it's comming because the money ofcourse, and the United States who will fight against every communistic revolution. Also it would take many years. If communism (with a revolution) will help the third wold then I think many of western states will change.
Nothing is impossible.

[Pogue]

You can't defeat capitalism by forming a bigger army...any people's militia would instantly be decimated unless we have true industrial power. Armed workers militias are neccesary to defend communities and will arise in a revolution but the idea of a revolution by insurgency is ridiculous.

Capitalism is destroyed by workers power not an army shooting people.

[antizionist]

Start in a small first world nation like say nz
nations like cuba and venezula will help in training and capital.
Gurrilla warfare

Ernesto and Fidel done it with 100-200 men in a nation of 10,000,000
like the last comrade says anythings possible.

[Pogue]

Start in a small first world nation like say nz
nations like cuba and venezula will help in training and capital.
Gurrilla warfare

Ernesto and Fidel done it with 100-200 men in a nation of 10,000,000
like the last comrade says anythings possible.


Cuba was a very particular circumstance. The idea of doing it worldwide is absolutely insane.

[antizionist]

Good point comrade,
the workers here are to content to work for capitalisim
consumerisim and zionist media make us content
and mindless

like immortal tech said dreaming about socialist democracy is unfortunately
beyond there rationale

[antizionist]

Cuba was a very particular circumstance. The idea of doing it worldwide is absolutely insane.
it would destory the world
capitalist are cruel and ruthless
they would kill us all rather than
lose there power.

[Sam_b]

***THIS IS A SERIOUS POST, NO JOKERS WILL BE TOLERATED ON THIS THREAD, AND IF THEY POST HERE THEIR POST WILL BE DELETED***

You do not have any right to post rubbish disclaimers like this, users can comment as they see fit in this ridiculous thread.

Yet again this is purely romanticising/fetishisising about the 'glorious revolution' and competely negates the most important task of building up class conscious workers and having a leftist presence on the streets.


Once the imperialist nations have hardly any more poor nations to exploit, how will they make a profit?

'poor' nations don't run out of natural resources and labour forces overnight, y'know.

[Oktyabr]

Armed workers militias are neccesary to defend communities and will arise in a revolution

Thats really what I had in mind, except militias lack the discipline and often the training and equipment to wage war.

If the people were organized like a capable army, but did not fight as a regular force, they could be very effective.

[antizionist]

Thats really what I had in mind, except militias lack the discipline and often the training and equipment to wage war.

If the people were organized like a capable army, but did not fight as a regular force, they could be very effective.
Learn about the maori wars against victorian britain
maori warriors were fulltime workers and very effective soldiers.

even the british with there highly professional army and war proven were
amazed maori warriors would dig up potatoes one day and blast brits the next.

[Communist Theory]

Let's all head to New Zealand and overthrow the government guys!

[Comrade Marxist Bro]

Wow...what's the point of seriously responding to this alternate dimension fantasizing?

The Feds just added one more agent to the online-monitoring desk.

[Q]

Why is this even outside chit-chat?

[Pogue]

Also on the first world bit about us focusing here - my last few demos have been Palestine solidarity, anti-war/weapons being used in the middle east and obviously i am in a union which has links worldwide and wants to build worldwide. everyone who is active in a group here is probably in a group which is in an international so the point is mute really. many of us will either live or will have worked in the third world, so really its a mute point.

[Killfacer]

Stop jizzing your pants fantasizing about forming a revolutionary army. Wake up from your day dream.

[Forward Union]

I've been thinking...

Most of us are in the first world, participating in rallies, demonstrations, and other such events. However, I think much of our focus (thats just the way it looks to me, tell if it is otherwise) seems to be at home or in other countries in the first world. All while thousands of poor people across capitalist Asia and Africa starve to death.

If there is ever to be a world revolution, I believe that we have to work our way up, i.e. taking the fight from the third world to the first world. To do this, we would have to begin organizing what would result in an international global army (think the International Brigades but better trained and equipped).

What are you on about?

[marxistcritic]

I have an idea for world revolution. We must do it the Marxist way, meaning...
1. Set up large organization, guard, electoral, military, and propaganda commitees in large industrial cities. No one will have more power than anyone else.
2. We must do everything democraticly, and gather popular support. Because are early numbers and power will be small, we will accept help from everyone.
3. Set up commitees in the countryside, and gather support from the farmers.
4. We must find a large and well-equipped revolutionary movement elsewere, try to absorb it. Stockpile weapons.
5. By now, the majority of people in the majority of countries will support us. We must take out the strongest nations first, then the rest. Initiate the marxist political and economic system.

[antizionist]

Dreaming about revolutionary army is dumb
it will never happen
not like a communist party winning a first world election
now that would work! :lol:

[Oktyabr]

Dreaming about revolutionary army is dumb
it will never happen
not like a communist party winning a first world election
now that would work! :lol:

My answer to that one:

1917
1919
1936
1959

Look up important leftist events in those years.

And even though your avatar is denouncing israel, it could also be seen as anti-semetic. Just thought I'd say that, with the sign of Judaism being exed out and all. I'm not trying to start a fight, but a good portion of my family is of Jewish decent.

[FreeFocus]

And even though your avatar is denouncing israel, it could also be seen as anti-semetic. Just thought I'd say that, with the sign of Judaism being exed out and all. I'm not trying to start a fight, but a good portion of my family is of Jewish decent.

There are pictures with the Star of David, Cross and Crescent Moon all crossed out. I'm sure people who use that picture are anti-Semitic, anti-white and anti-Muslim/anti-Arab, respectively. Even if he was explicitly targeting Judaism, it is a hierarchical religion just like the others. If his goal was to be anti-Semitic, he could choose much more obvious avatars, although they'd land him in OI with the quickness.

[Il Medico]

I think in regards to the third world focoism would be a better bet.

[antizionist]

I see your point on the star of david
i have no problem with the jews
zionist do not (or should not) repersent all jews.
a zionisim is capitalist, racist, and facist
therefor i am against this as a socialist
and because the israeli connection to the true power in america
is so great i see them as the leaders of our common enemy, capitalisim

good point i will change my avatar.
:)

[antizionist]

My answer to that one:

1917
1919
1936
1959

Look up important leftist events in those years.

And even though your avatar is denouncing israel, it could also be seen as anti-semetic. Just thought I'd say that, with the sign of Judaism being exed out and all. I'm not trying to start a fight, but a good portion of my family is of Jewish decent.
Bro that was taking a dig at
the comrades who think dreaming about a revolutionary army is dumb

Do you really think a communist party can win a western democratic election?

Im all for gurrilla warfare like Ernesto said
"the revolution isint a apple that falls from a tree - we have to make it fall"

[Oktyabr]

Bro that was taking a dig at
the comrades who think dreaming about a revolutionary army is dumb

Do you really think a communist party can win a western democratic election?

Im all for gurrilla warfare like Ernesto said
"the revolution isint a apple that falls from a tree - we have to make it fall"

Oh. I completely misinterpreted that. Really F'ing sorry.

[Communist Theory]

Oktyabr organize everything for us.
Get the guns ready and stockpiled along with ammunition
Create propaganda to help get more soldiers
Build or buy some tanks and vehicles for us
Tell us when you're ready and all of RevLeft will gladly head to whatever country you want to liberate.

[Oktyabr]

Oktyabr organize everything for us.
Get the guns ready and stockpiled along with ammunition
Create propaganda to help get more soldiers
Build or buy some tanks and vehicles for us
Tell us when you're ready and all of RevLeft will gladly head to whatever country you want to liberate.

I sense sarcasm.

But if you really are serious, I wouldn't mind in the least helping a proletarian revolution. :lol:

Thats what I dream of anyways. I think about how to establish a proletarian force using the best examples from history and learning from the mistakes of the worst

[Communist Theory]

Well if can actually do all that I would gladly go with you.

[Oktyabr]

Well if can actually do all that I would gladly go with you.

How farcical this all is: a 14 year old reactionary-turned-communist-turned-anarchist organizing a revolutionary army :laugh:

Che would approve :che: I hope.

:blackA::blackA::blackA::blackA::blackA::blackA::b lackA::blackA: oh hellz to the yes

[Oktyabr]

Oktyabr organize everything for us.
Get the guns ready and stockpiled along with ammunition
Create propaganda to help get more soldiers
Build or buy some tanks and vehicles for us
Tell us when you're ready and all of RevLeft will gladly head to whatever country you want to liberate.

Ummm, I've got my mom's Honda oddysey and some cardboard, that work for you?

[Communist Theory]

Ummm, I've got my mom's Honda oddysey and some cardboard, that work for you?
Take it apart, build a bulldozer out of the parts, take that apart, then build a tank out of the parts, take that apart, then finally build a B-52 Bomber.

[ellipsis]

A revolution can not start with a large "army". Single sparks start wildfires most often, not flame throwers.

[Communist Theory]

Flamethrowers have a better chance, best not to have the firefighters stop my fire and throw me in jail right?

[Oktyabr]

A revolution can not start with a large "army". Single sparks start wildfires most often, not flame throwers.

What I proposed was a guerilla type force of at least a formidable size, I know that I called it an army, but in theory, it would be hundreds of small guerilla units that as a whole would be the size of an army.

[Il Medico]

What I proposed was a guerilla type force of at least a formidable size, I know that I called it an army, but in theory, it would be hundreds of small guerilla units that as a whole would be the size of an army.
You seem to be proposing Focoism, which has had limited success. But who knows, it might be the right time to try again. Start reading Guerrilla Warfare (both Che's and Mao's) if you really want to pursue this. It will help you with tatics, and when you get a successful guerrilla group going, I'll gladly drop my sign and pick up my kalashnokov and join you comrade! Che would approve!:che::castro::marx::trotski::engles:

[bcbm]

You seem to be proposing Focoism, which has had limited success. But who knows, it might be the right time to try again. Start read Guerrilla Warfare (both Che's and Mao's) if you really want to pursue this. It will help you with tatics, and when you get a successful guerrilla group going, I'll gladly drop my sign and pick up my kalashnokov and join you comrade!

Are you a cop, or just stupid?

[Oktyabr]

Are you a cop, or just stupid?

That was just rude and uncalled for.

[bcbm]

That was just rude and uncalled for.

Anybody saying they would run off to go join a guerrilla group in the US (or start one, for that matter) is certainly one or the other.

[Oktyabr]

Anybody saying they would run off to go join a guerrilla group in the US (or start one, for that matter) is certainly one or the other.
explain why a cop would. And I wasn't talking about the U.S. in the first place. I think its rather funny how people criticize me without knowing what I am saying or reading all of my posts. Go back and look through all of my posts on this thread, and see if you understand then.

[bcbm]

Why do you think a cop would want to join such an organization?

Re-reading the thread, you're right, you weren't talking about starting in the US. You were talking about first-worlders going to the third world to overthrow "much hated" regimes there. Because it stands to reason that if the country's inhabitants can't do it, a bunch of poorly trained and equipped (you would never be able to get proper) "revolutionaries" from the first-world certainly stand a chance. Sorry but all this business of guerrilla armies and irregular warfare and so on is absolute rubbish and has nothing to do with the class struggle.

[Oktyabr]

Why do you think a cop would want to join such an organization?

Re-reading the thread, you're right, you weren't talking about starting in the US. You were talking about first-worlders going to the third world to overthrow "much hated" regimes there. Because it stands to reason that if the country's inhabitants can't do it, a bunch of poorly trained and equipped (you would never be able to get proper) "revolutionaries" from the first-world certainly stand a chance. Sorry but all this business of guerrilla armies and irregular warfare and so on is absolute rubbish and has nothing to do with the class struggle.

Probably just some problems in the conception; not a completely bad idea. I'm saying that once people realize they can have a better life, give them training and aid, and they can rise up themselves. The only first-worlders involved would be advisers and commanders (once the people had formally organized themselves, they could leave).

[Sam_b]

Yeah not a bad idea. A terrible idea based in romanticism and completely alien to the necessary struggle to build a class-conscious working class.

[Dr Mindbender]

someones been playing too much red alert again.

[Oktyabr]

All some people need to learn is not to be afraid. Once they learn that, the struggle is theirs.

[bcbm]

And who better to teach people in the third-world how to "not be afraid" than a bunch of westerners who must be pretty well off to have the disposable income to travel like that and who seem to be too afraid to take on the task of building the struggle in their own country so they've run away to some poor nation.

Our task is to build class consciousness and organize our class here- in the work place, in the neighborhood, in the schools, etc. Any talk of building an army anywhere in the world is absurd coming from a bunch of people on a messageboard and really, like I said, has no place in the struggle. The class struggle is organizing workers to take control, not organizing a regular army or a guerrilla army and taking on the bosses in some big battle. Ridiculous.

[Il Medico]

Why do you think a cop would want to join such an organization?

Re-reading the thread, you're right, you weren't talking about starting in the US. You were talking about first-worlders going to the third world to overthrow "much hated" regimes there. Because it stands to reason that if the country's inhabitants can't do it, a bunch of poorly trained and equipped (you would never be able to get proper) "revolutionaries" from the first-world certainly stand a chance. Sorry but all this business of guerrilla armies and irregular warfare and so on is absolute rubbish and has nothing to do with the class struggle.
One I am quite offended, that was completely uncalled for. If you disagree all you had to do is say so. However, are you saying that if the was a group lead by westerners or otherwise, trying to over the Military Junta in Burma or the Sudanese government you would not join their cause? On top of that, your assertion that Focoism or guerrilla warfare have nothing to do with class struggle is quite naive. Revolution will not come if all we do is complain about how oppresses we are, we must fight! Also, your comment about disposable income is laughable in my case, I'd probably be swimming there!:lol: And remember comrade, our is complacency the greatest weapon of the bourgeois.

[bcbm]

One I am quite offended, that was completely uncalled for.

You're right, my comment was uncalled for and I apologize. I try not to be so rude in discussions here but something about it just rubbed me the wrong way. Excuses, excuses, I know, but really I'm sorry. What I'm trying to say is that it should be obvious why stating you would join a guerrilla group on an open message board with minimal security precautions is problematic for you and the board and a more naive statement than any I've made. It also should be clear why that statement is something a cop might say; the police would obviously want to infiltrate something that would be a potential threat to those in power and undermine, destroy and imprison those in the organization.


However, are you saying that if the was a group lead by westerners or otherwise, trying to over the Military Junta in Burma or the Sudanese government you would not join their cause?

Well how would you feel about a group lead by westerners trying to overthrow the Hussein regime in Iraq or the Taliban in Afghanistan, planning to hand over control over the government to the citizens as soon as possible?


On top of that, your assertion that Focoism or guerrilla warfare have nothing to do with class struggle is quite naive.

At this stage in the struggle they certainly don't and talking about creating an army out of revolutionary leftists, a marginal group, and taking on infinitely more advanced forces is completely out of touch with reality. Our job is to build a militant working class movement to overthrow capitalism, not goof around with guns and completely irrelevant tactics.


Revolution will not come if all we do is complain about how oppresses we are, we must fight!

Fighting the bosses comes in many forms beyond shooting guns. This is one of the major problems with guerrilla thinking in general; it leads to the idea that only armed actions are meaningful.


Also, your comment about disposable income is laughable in my case, I'd probably be swimming there!:lol:

You could fund an entire army by yourself?


And remember comrade, our is complacency the greatest weapon of the bourgeois.

Shooting people is probably the least productive way to end "complacency" at this point.

[StalinFanboy]

I've been thinking...

Most of us are in the first world, participating in rallies, demonstrations, and other such events. However, I think much of our focus (thats just the way it looks to me, tell if it is otherwise) seems to be at home or in other countries in the first world. All while thousands of poor people across capitalist Asia and Africa starve to death.

If there is ever to be a world revolution, I believe that we have to work our way up, i.e. taking the fight from the third world to the first world. To do this, we would have to begin organizing what would result in an international global army (think the International Brigades but better trained and equipped).
NO. I'm so tired of this. There are problems and tensions in our lives, on our streets, and in our neighborhoods that we need to be confronting and dealing with.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

This is entirely alien to what we NEED to be doing. As I mentioned in another thread tactics based around small revolutionary proletarian minorities cannot emancipate the working class. We need to raise class awareness and build mass non-ideological working class movements fighting towards workers self management.

[SocialismOrBarbarism]

I can just see the lurkers from stormfront laughing their asses off. This is the dumbest thread ever.

[Oktyabr]

I can just see the lurkers from stormfront laughing their asses off. This is the dumbest thread ever.

There are dumber, and accusing me of being a "Stormfront lurker" is just absurd.

[Sam_b]

accusing me of being a "Stormfront lurker" is just absurd

Nobody did that.

[Oktyabr]

Nobody did that.

Oh, I thought I was being accused.

[Oktyabr]

http://www.revleft.com/vb/colombian-troops-killed-p1440943/index.html#post1440943

So guerilla warfare and armed resistance has no place in class struggle. Right :rolleyes:

You guys are so quick to criticize instead of analyze what I was saying that you did not realize I was advocating something akin to what the FARC is doing.

[Communist Theory]

There are dumber, and accusing me of being a "Stormfront lurker" is just absurd.
He's saying the lurkers from stormfront are probably laughing at this thread.

[bcbm]

http://www.revleft.com/vb/colombian-troops-killed-p1440943/index.html#post1440943

So guerilla warfare and armed resistance has no place in class struggle. Right :rolleyes:

You guys are so quick to criticize instead of analyze what I was saying that you did not realize I was advocating something akin to what the FARC is doing.

And the FARC have been more or less unsuccessful, seem to have little support within our class and, as a major difference between what you advocate and what they are doing, are not led by first worlders. The guerrilla strategy is typically pursued during periods of relatively little class struggle or on the tail end of a heightened period and the results throughout history have been pretty damning with failure after failure. And so, yes, guerrilla warfare and armed resistance have no place in our struggle at this juncture.

[black magick hustla]

i am a one man army i dont need other guerrilla fighters

[Sam_b]

Seeing as Oktyabr has now been restricted, maybe we could close this awful thread? Just a thought.