"'chav boxing' - taking the class war to a whole new level"

[Zurdito]

Chav boxing – taking the class war to a whole new level

A London gym's worrying new fitness class, chav fighting, teaches people how to 'give a hoodie a kicking'. What next, immigrant baiting?
Comments (39) (http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/joepublic/2009/may/05/chav-fighting-workout-gymbox?commentpage=1)
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Society/Pix/pictures/2009/5/5/1241530193698/Brad-Pitt-in-Fight-Club-001.jpg Mug a hoodie ... chav fighting is 'a place where the punch bags gather dust and the world is put to rights', according to Gymbox. Photograph: Cinetext/20th Century Fox/Allstar



The fight against obesity has just got personal. One London gym's solution to flab is "chav bashing" classes. Gymbox (http://www.gymbox.co.uk/), which has branches in Covent Garden, Holborn and Bank, has started a new workout called chav fighting (http://www.gymbox.co.uk/chav_fighting_class.php).
If the title of the class wasn't bad enough, the description is even more offensive. "Don't give moody grunting chav's [sic] an asbo, give them a kicking. Forget stealing candy from a baby. We'll teach you how to take a Bacardi off a hoodie and turn a grunt into a whine. Welcome to chav fighting, a place where the punch bags gather dust and the world is put to rights," the website says.
This is accompanied by a video which appears to condone violence against young people. A couple walk through an alleyway and come across two hoodies. One of the hoodies is thrown on the ground, repeatedly punched and left motionless by the boyfriend. The video ends with the couple walking off laughing.
For those with a different violent bent, the gym offers other classes. "Warrior workout" is an invitation to take out your frustrations on anyone you hate. "You know those commuters, colleagues and family members who really get on your wick? Well now you can pretend to pummel the hell out of them in the name of physical fitness (http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/fitness). And while you're at it, you can look in the mirror and notice how sexy you look with a big stick in your hand," explains the website. So not only is it OK to want to beat up anyone who crosses you, apparently wielding a stick is a sexy thing to do.
Other options are "***** boxing", "stiletto workout", "boob aerobics" and cheerleading.
According to Sky News, Gymbox is being investigated by the Advertising Standards Authority for causing possible offence or harm (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Fitness-club-Gymbox-is-investigated-by-Advertising-Standards-Authority-over-Chav-Fighting-classes/Article/200904415271926?lpos=UK_News_First_UK_News_Feature _Teaser_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15271926_Fitness_club_Gymbox_is_invest igated_by_Advertising_Standards_Authority_over_Cha v_Fighting_classes) after complaints about an advert outside Holborn tube station and leaflets distributed to locals in the area.
Gymbox denies anything is amiss with the classes or the adverts. Owner Richard Hilton told Sky: "It's a street fighting class – we don't think it's offensive. Ninety per cent of the course is defence-type moves – how to immobilise somebody."
If he does not think chav fighting is offensive, it makes you wonder what the Gymbox's next class will be – immigrant baiting perhaps?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/joepublic/2009/may/05/chav-fighting-workout-gymbox

[Rascolnikova]

yuck.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Disgusting stuff. Bad enough using the word chav but then talking about inciting hatred against this 'chav' population is quite frankly sickening.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

What a ****.

[ls]

The total pieces of shit.

http://www.gymbox.co.uk/featured_classes.php


Stiletto Workout


BOOB AEROBICS


***** BOXING

Sounds like a rich tory right-wing wankoff for people who go to spearmint rhino et al.

Someone should get a job there: http://www.gymbox.co.uk/workforus.php
..and can add something special to the Gymbox team.

Yep, a randomly psychotic hardnut self-described chav could add something special. After getting the job, they should offer to take on the "hardest nut" at the "Gymbox". ;) Of course, they would go to the job interview looking respectable and all to get the job.

There's a couple of people I should forward this to. :D

[rednordman]

Pathetic. Nuff said. Another great example of Britain dissappearing up its own ass again:rolleyes:. FFS!when will all this middle england madness going to end.

[MilitantAnarchist]

Bollocks, i dont usually generalise groups of people, but as a chavs aint exactly the nice kind tolerant people some people seem to think they are.
I dont use it as a term to degrade people, i use it for people who are the shellsuit wearing, old lady mugging, gangsta rap listening, drug dealer wannabe gangster sorts who pretend try to act black but then are racist 5mins later.... that is my experience of 'chavs', and beleive me i do no alot of em where i live.... Im not saying ALL CHAVS are like this, but 9/10 people like that i know and know of, seriously are that bad. So bollocks to all that politically correct shite. David Cameron said 'hug a hoodie' and im fucked if im stooping to the level of a tory to please other peoples views.

(im sure i'm gonna get alot of insults hurled at me now, but it is true)

[Jack]

I'm American, could someone explain what Chavs and hoodies are?

In turn I'll tell you about any American equivalent.

[Andropov]

Bollocks, i dont usually generalise groups of people, but as a chavs aint exactly the nice kind tolerant people some people seem to think they are.
The stereotypical start to every bigoted rant.
"Ehh im not racist but........." and of course the classic, "not all are bad but.......".

[Andropov]

I'm American, could someone explain what Chavs and hoodies are?
What posh twats refer to the British Working Class as.

[ls]

Hoodies are universally kids on bicycles wearing caps causing trouble listening to rap music - that's the stereotype.

Chavs are just usually kids and young adults who wear certain clothing, gold chains, rings, tracksuits, trainers and sportswear like that. Bourgeoisie wankers often label all chavs as 'scum' when they are simply people who conform to an image in the end of the day.

http://media.urbandictionary.com/image/large/chav-42885.jpg

That's the popular stereotype of what a chav "is".

[MilitantAnarchist]

What posh twats refer to the British Working Class as.

you can fuck right off mate! thats not a chav atall, not in my oppinion. alot of chavs are middle class, they aint normal working class kids, i have no problem with that, the term 'chav' is used to describe the ones that are the 'stereotype', i dont get on with them because of that, not because they are 'working class'...
what do you define as working class then smart arse? thats what it depends on, and where are you from? are you 'working class' or 'middle class' you want to keep bringing class and race into discussions when all that is to me is patronising, i dont give a fuck if your white, black, rich or poor, what does all that matter?
Maybe your right, im prejudice against 'chavs' because of my expireinces. Eg dealing skag to kids (i no that is like just drug dealer scum but in my expierience they chavs), glassing my mate in the face, glassing me (but luckily did little to no damage), and ive put up with alot of shit from these fuckers who think they are some kind of gangster... Its got nowt to do with where your from, its who you are, THATS how i describe a chav.
... And another thing, you stick up for them but in my short time here, some of you commie wankers are hypocritical as fuck! When i talked about discrimination for being 'punk' in the workplace and the street, you basically said 'well change your hair, what do you expect?' like i deserve it. How the fuck dare you say its ok for your beloved 'chavs and snobs' to insult and ATTACK me, but if i say whats on my mind im as bad as a racist???
Punk is working class? so whats your issues with it? Fucking bollocks is what this is! You dont know what your saying, you have YOUR VIEWS ON WHAT DISCRIMINATION IS, and say its bollocks if you dont agree.
And who are these 'posh twats' that refere to 'working class' as that? All the people that use the word 'chav' that i know, are all working class!

[Bilan]

MA, no one is trying to justify the bad things that Chav's do. I'm sure most people from the UK have got stories like yours.
The point is that Chav's are not some sort of subspecies of people, and that training to bash 'chav's' is not something which is really acceptable.

Furthermore, middle class chavs? What exactly is the middle class?

[Andropov]

you can fuck right off mate! thats not a chav atall, not in my oppinion. alot of chavs are middle class, they aint normal working class kids, i have no problem with that, the term 'chav' is used to describe the ones that are the 'stereotype', i dont get on with them because of that, not because they are 'working class'...
You said chavs are people who.

i use it for people who are the shellsuit wearing

gangsta rap listening
What does someones clothes or music taste got to do with thier character?
Sounds like stereotyping to me and stereotypes are inherintley innacurate.
Alot of my mates would conform to both of those requirments, even I wear trackys the whole time, so?

what do you define as working class then smart arse? thats what it depends on, and where are you from? are you 'working class' or 'middle class' you want to keep bringing class and race into discussions when all that is to me is patronising, i dont give a fuck if your white, black, rich or poor, what does all that matter?
The working class are those who do not own the means of production.
And of course I will bring class into discussions, im a Marxist, everything must be analysed in Class politics.

Maybe your right, im prejudice against 'chavs' because of my expireinces. Eg dealing skag to kids
No they are called drug dealers.

(i no that is like just drug dealer scum but in my expierience they chavs),
Your a prejudiced bigot.

They are drug dealers, they need no other social label.
glassing my mate in the face, glassing me (but luckily did little to no damage), and ive put up with alot of shit from these fuckers who think they are some kind of gangster... Its got nowt to do with where your from, its who you are, THATS how i describe a chav.
No you said.

i use it for people who are the shellsuit wearing

gangsta rap listening

... And another thing, you stick up for them but in my short time here, some of you commie wankers are hypocritical as fuck! When i talked about discrimination for being 'punk' in the workplace and the street, you basically said 'well change your hair, what do you expect?' like i deserve it.How the fuck dare you say its ok for your beloved 'chavs and snobs' to insult and ATTACK me,
Its your personel choice how you dress.
I do not condone violence against people because of how they dress.
That is an absurd accusation.
Provide a link to where I condoned it?

but if i say whats on my mind im as bad as a racist???
No, your just clearly prejudiced.

Punk is working class? so whats your issues with it? Fucking bollocks is what this is!
Not where im from, but then thats just me.
There isnt any Punk tradition here.

You dont know what your saying, you have YOUR VIEWS ON WHAT DISCRIMINATION IS, and say its bollocks if you dont agree.
Mate its not me whos confused.
Its you who is spewing this incoherent babble not me.

And who are these 'posh twats' that refere to 'working class' as that?
Pick up your average rag and you wont have to look too far until you spot somebody slurred with "chav"

All the people that use the word 'chav' that i know, are all working class!
So?
I know alot of black guys who use the word Nigger.

[Pogue]

Well when people refer to chav, often they use it to mean anyone who dresses that way and talks that way. its used as a snobbish term generally for anyone who is deemed 'common'. I experienced this in my old school which was a grammar school.

The culture is working class, sort of like how skinhead was, but alot of people who do it also tend to be from a wealthier background (i.e. don't live on an estate as the stereotype of chav would suggest) but merely want to seem like that. I have experience of this.

The thing is, its basically become predjudiced hatred for anyone who dresses in a style popular with working class people over here at the moment and it becomes bigoted snobbery. But its a tough one, because the whole 'chav' subculture is associated with a certain attitude due to the behaviour associated with being a chav. For example, I know people who wear the sort of clothes associated with 'chavs', are working class, talk like that etc who are not violent dickheads and actively try to sort out violent dickhead types. I ny opinion such people are not chavs for how they dress, but for the attitude, i.e. violent types.

Granted, alot of these youths exist. Around my area you get alot of kids who would fit the stereotype of 'chav', i.e. aggressive, where the clothes, play the music aloud, talk the talk etc. I wouldn't call them chavs though, because its a dergoatary term which has become synonymous with common/working class. I'd just say my usual sentence when dealing with anything, especially racism - 'A thug is a thug'. Theres quite simply violent dickheads and non violent dickheads. Theres people in my area who dress that way, talk that way, listen to the music etc who are well alright people, i'm good friends with them. Sometimes I wear clothes similar cos its comfortable and casual. Theres also alot of people who dress the same way who are also dickheads.

Basically the image, espcially of youths in groups dressing and acting 'that way' (hanging in groups, the music, the drink etc) has become associated with violence/a threat. Theres some basis for this, i.e. a gang of youths drinking in the street often are intimidating to walk through based on the fact theres lots of them, they might be noisy, etc. But because of my experience of the sort of people who are violent and those who are not I don't have some blanket 'z0mg chav, run for the suburban torie law and order metaphoric hills'. I know the sorts of people in my area (and also the look and behaviour of the violent types) and I know the ones who dress the same who are alright. I know as a fact there are better ways to judge whether or not someone is violent or scum than their appearance and speech code.

Thats why these classes are disgusting. Its clearly universal predjudiced snobbery and discrimination of whats deemed inferior when really its just a very popular working class thing. Kids like to hang around with mates, like the music, like the alcohol, etc. Nothing wrong with that. Thugs are thugs, kids in a certain dress sense with certain behaviour are not neccesarily so.

[Pogue]

Just watched the video.

Fuck it, maybe if we ask Ian Bone hard enough he'll start up 'toff fighting' classes. That'd be fun. Russell Howard could come too.

[Sam_b]

THATS how i describe a chav.


All the people that use the word 'chav' that i know, are all working class!

Stop trying to defend a sterotypical term that more often than not is used to attack working class youth. For a so-called 'militant anarchist' your class politics are atrocious.

[The Idler]

Chavs are lumpenproletariat who are a regressive element in any class war. They have no respect for society, they consider to be poor/working-class to be embarassing, pitiful and shameful. They don't wear hoods up to revolt or smash the state, they were hoods up to intimidate other citizens. They idolise accumulation of personal wealth and its ostentatious display, Burberry print and gold jewellery isn't cheap y'know. They are ignorant and uninterested in class struggle. They seem to be exclusively a British phenomenon and overwhelmingly white, I wouldn't be suprised if they mainly bought The Sun, and were susceptible to nationalist ideas.

I have no problem with young or the working class or even the young working-class but chavs are a separate issue.

[ls]

Chavs are lumpenproletariat who are a regressive element in any class war. They have no respect for society, they consider to be poor/working-class to be embarassing, pitiful and shameful. They don't wear hoods up to revolt or smash the state, they were hoods up to intimidate other citizens. They idolise accumulation of personal wealth and its ostentatious display, Burberry print and gold jewellery isn't cheap y'know. They are ignorant and uninterested in class struggle. They seem to be exclusively a British phenomenon and overwhelmingly white, I wouldn't be suprised if they mainly bought The Sun, and were susceptible to nationalist ideas.

I have no problem with young or the working class or even the young working-class but chavs are a separate issue.

In another post you were defending the times from scrutiny; now you are reciting it. You sound like the sort of person that would go to these classes.

[Mujer Libre]

you can fuck right off mate! thats not a chav atall, not in my oppinion. alot of chavs are middle class, they aint normal working class kids, i have no problem with that, the term 'chav' is used to describe the ones that are the 'stereotype', i dont get on with them because of that, not because they are 'working class'...
what do you define as working class then smart arse? thats what it depends on, and where are you from? are you 'working class' or 'middle class' you want to keep bringing class and race into discussions when all that is to me is patronising, i dont give a fuck if your white, black, rich or poor, what does all that matter?
Maybe your right, im prejudice against 'chavs' because of my expireinces. Eg dealing skag to kids (i no that is like just drug dealer scum but in my expierience they chavs), glassing my mate in the face, glassing me (but luckily did little to no damage), and ive put up with alot of shit from these fuckers who think they are some kind of gangster... Its got nowt to do with where your from, its who you are, THATS how i describe a chav.
... And another thing, you stick up for them but in my short time here, some of you commie wankers are hypocritical as fuck! When i talked about discrimination for being 'punk' in the workplace and the street, you basically said 'well change your hair, what do you expect?' like i deserve it. How the fuck dare you say its ok for your beloved 'chavs and snobs' to insult and ATTACK me, but if i say whats on my mind im as bad as a racist???
Punk is working class? so whats your issues with it? Fucking bollocks is what this is! You dont know what your saying, you have YOUR VIEWS ON WHAT DISCRIMINATION IS, and say its bollocks if you dont agree.
And who are these 'posh twats' that refere to 'working class' as that? All the people that use the word 'chav' that i know, are all working class!
MA- please don't flame.

[Mujer Libre]

Chavs are lumpenproletariat who are a regressive element in any class war. They have no respect for society, they consider to be poor/working-class to be embarassing, pitiful and shameful. They don't wear hoods up to revolt or smash the state, they were hoods up to intimidate other citizens. They idolise accumulation of personal wealth and its ostentatious display, Burberry print and gold jewellery isn't cheap y'know. They are ignorant and uninterested in class struggle. They seem to be exclusively a British phenomenon and overwhelmingly white, I wouldn't be suprised if they mainly bought The Sun, and were susceptible to nationalist ideas.
Aside from the references to "lumpenproletariat" this sounds like something out of one of the tabloids.

It's pretty clear to me, even from outside the UK, that 'chav' is a term used to falsely class all young people who dress a certain way, or listen to a certain type of music, as aggressive thugs with no hope of achieving anything. It's the sort of moral panic that the media loves to generate around young people (particularly working class/poor young people) and their subcultures, and it's pretty sad that people buy into them.

I mean, it's pretty obvious that all this is prejudiced stereotyping based on very little truth, and I can't imagine that it's doing any good for the people in question. I mean- imagine being labelled worthless and aggressive, and only capable of dealing drugs and glassing people... Just because you wear a hoodie and listen to hip-hop...

So yeah, I think the whole idea is reprehensible, and the other classes offered at this gym give a few hints as to their general mindset...

Also- I find it a bit rich that someone who was complaining about being 'discriminated against' for being a punk should stereotype a group of people in this way.

[Zurdito]

actually all these "yours" or "my" definition of the word are pretty irrelevant, how about we analyse what's happening in reality: the British ruling class is whipping up hatred against stereotypical hate-figures like "chavs" to justify a climate of repression and violence against the working class in general.

As for chavs being "lumpenproletariat": well regardless of whether this is true (we already had threads on what the word "chav" means in this very subforum, go backa few pages, they were quite recent), I don't think that the midle classes training themselves up to carry out extreme violence against anyone who looks lumpen is exactly a progressive solution to social decay under capitalism. You don't have to be an apologist for capitalism to see that.

I am all for people trainign themselves up or even arming themselves to protect themselves from violence against them but "chav boxing" is clearly reactionary.

[ls]

To be honest Zurdito, it seems more like a flashy right-wing wank-gimmick to attract posh wankers to their shitty club, they probably teach some arsey watered down 'yoga boxing' shit when you actually go there.

[nuisance]

Sounds like it could be fun.

[MikeSC]

Considering "chavs" are the people who pre-Thatcher would have gone into the working class jobs that just aren't there any more, I consider this an attack on the working class. The capitalists destroyed a culture and sneer at people born into the void they created.

Who wants to form a "Battering the middle class class"?

[Old Man Diogenes]

I would say the description is pretty accurate, but I don't agree with the stereotyping. Even kids who don't fit the stereotype get labelled as anti-socials, I'm sick of it. Old people are frightened of us, its ridiculous, and its the fault of the media taking isolated insidents and blowing them out of all proportions and making every succeptable old dear and ignorant reader shit themselves at the sight of a young person. And how come they never bash the upper-class with ridiculous stereotypes like these, how come we don't see ones about a fox hunting, polo playing, hobo kicking, ignorant, racist, daily mail reading toff?

[Dr Mindbender]

What posh twats refer to the British Working Class as.

being working class makes you a chav now?

Thats news to me.

Chavs arent a class, and not all working class people are chavs. They're a sub culture like emo's, goths or punk rockers.

[Vanguard1917]

Reminds me of those 'chav-free' holidays that some eco-travel company was advertising a few months ago...

----------------

Monday 27 April 2009
How to beat up chavs
Tim Black reports on the London gym offering people lessons in headbutting hoodies and duffing up ‘the scourge’ of society.
Tim Black

Outside the exit to Holborn tube station in central London, there is a prominent advert for a nearby gym, Gymbox. Nothing unusual in that, you might think. Only this advert is promoting something far more frightening than ‘step aerobics’ or ‘pilates’; it is promoting lessons in how to beat up ‘chavs’.

For those who don’t know what a ‘chav’ is, it is usually working class, drinks alcohol from the depths of its hooded top, and scares the respectable classes witless. It is to be found almost entirely in the more febrile regions of the middle-class imagination. And it is this fear of ‘chavs’ that Gymbox is keen to exploit. ‘Don’t give moody grunting chavs an ASBO, give them a kicking’, explains its website. ‘Forget stealing candy from a baby. We’ll teach you how to take a Bacardi off a hoodie and turn a grunt into a whine. Welcome to Chav Fighting, a place where the punch bags gather dust and the world is put to rights.’

Clearly a bit of clever PR, right? Or maybe a ‘gymick’? After all, judging by the range of other courses on offer, Gymbox seems to enjoy poking holes in political correctness. Women, we are told, can pole-dance their way to the ‘body of a stripper’, or hone ‘calves of steel’ though the ‘Stiletto Workout’ at their local Gymbox. And men can take out their pent-up aggression at colleagues/family members/strippers in the ‘Warrior Workout’. Add to this ‘Boob Aerobics’ or the cheerleading courses and you have something about as offensive as Carry On Up the Gym.


http://www.spiked-online.com/images/chav_fighting.gif
Gymbox (http://www.gymbox.co.uk/chav_fighting_class.php)’s anti-chav logo

Now, on top of the risqué laddism of the rest of Gymbox’s offering, we have the cartoon vigilantism of ‘Chav Fighting’. However, there’s a problem: the chav-fighting courses are not a joke. According to Gymbox itself, this is a serious course with serious intent. In other words, it is genuinely meant to equip the lawyers, media-types and office workers who frequent Holborn day in, day out with the muscles and skills to fight chavs. The manager of the Holborn branch of Gymbox told me the course teaches basic ‘street-fighting self-defence’ and even ‘how to throw haymakers’ and ‘how to headbutt’.

It gets worse. I asked him why the professionals of Holborn need street-fighting lessons, and he replied: ‘There’s a need for [chav fighting] in society.’ Mentioning ‘the rise in knife crime’ as an example, he said chavs were the ‘scourge of modern-day Britain’. And the answer, it seems, is headbutting and haymakers.

Does he not worry that Gymbox runs the risk of upsetting the people it brands as ‘chavs’? His answer was revealing: ‘It’s not offensive because even those we think of as being chavs wouldn’t categorise themselves as such’. That is precisely the problem with the notion of chavs. They exist principally in the minds of those whose fears and prejudices Gymbox is keen to tap in to, namely the white-collar workers that pour forth from Holborn station every day. Today’s panic over crime, in particular knife crime, is largely a politically driven, media-sustained creation of the panicked middle classes - and chav-fighting lessons look like its brutal logical conclusion.

Gymbox is not alone in perpetuating this scum-hating by another name. Earlier this year, the green-leaning travel firm Activities Abroad promised its clients ‘chav-free holidays’ (see ‘A nasty little piece of smug-class warfare’ (http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/6140/), by Brendan O’Neill). Like Activities Abroad, Gymbox seems happy to take this hooded, chain-dragging, knife-wielding phantasm for a reality. Content to vilify and scapegoat as much as any seventeenth-century inhabitant of Salem, this updated witch hunt, or chav hunt, is getting out of control.

Tim Black is senior writer at spiked.

reprinted from: http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/6608/

[LeninBalls]

Am I the only who actually doesn't like the stereotypical "chav"? I mean, I have no problems with the original "chav". But the 16 year old thugs that drink, smoke, do drugs, fight people, spit on you, rob you, demand 2 euros from you and if you refuse you get your phone/eye taken off you, etc How don't they annoy you? I'm aware it's a stereotype, but fuck me it's pretty true.

This seems to be the stereotypical generalized view of the "chav", not the working class original term (which I have no problem with of course), and I can honestly say I don't like them. Maybe I've had bad luck and had nothing but bad experiences with the 100+ encounters I've had with in my entire life in Ireland.

It's better off to call them thugs, but for me however, every thug I've come across is some 16 year old drinking, smoking, drug doing, fighting, racist, thieving, Fred Perry wearing cheeky **** that so happens to be stereotyped as a "chav".

[MikeSC]

Am I the only who actually doesn't like the stereotypical "chav"? I mean, I have no problems with the original "chav". But the 16 year old thugs that drink, smoke, do drugs, fight people, spit on you, rob you, demand 2 euros from you and if you refuse you get your phone/eye taken off you, etc How don't they annoy you? I'm aware it's a stereotype, but fuck me it's pretty true.

This seems to be the stereotypical generalized view of the "chav", not the working class original term (which I have no problem with of course), and I can honestly say I don't like them. Maybe I've had bad luck and had nothing but bad experiences with the 100+ encounters I've had with in my entire life in Ireland.

It's better off to call them thugs, but for me however, every thug I've come across is some 16 year old drinking, smoking, drug doing, fighting, racist, thieving, Fred Perry wearing cheeky **** that so happens to be stereotyped as a "chav".

The fact that it is so widespread shows that it's a social thing not an individual one. If we want to understand "chavs" we have to understand the context- the idea that people are somehow just "evil" went out with the enlightenment.

[Killfacer]

Am I the only who actually doesn't like the stereotypical "chav"? I mean, I have no problems with the original "chav". But the 16 year old thugs that drink, smoke, do drugs, fight people, spit on you, rob you, demand 2 euros from you and if you refuse you get your phone/eye taken off you, etc How don't they annoy you? I'm aware it's a stereotype, but fuck me it's pretty true.

This seems to be the stereotypical generalized view of the "chav", not the working class original term (which I have no problem with of course), and I can honestly say I don't like them. Maybe I've had bad luck and had nothing but bad experiences with the 100+ encounters I've had with in my entire life in Ireland.

It's better off to call them thugs, but for me however, every thug I've come across is some 16 year old drinking, smoking, drug doing, fighting, racist, thieving, Fred Perry wearing cheeky **** that so happens to be stereotyped as a "chav".

That's what i said in another thread. Although i think this boxing thing is fucking moronic, people are taking it in the wrong way.

A chav is a 14-17 year old who drinks white lightening (or lambrini) in parks, starts fights and generally make a nuisance of themselves.

[Killfacer]

The fact that it is so widespread shows that it's a social thing not an individual one. If we want to understand "chavs" we have to understand the context- the idea that people are somehow just "evil" went out with the enlightenment.

No one is saying that. The amount of times i have had scuffles with "chavs" is beyond beleif, i'm too old for it now, but everyone i know has been started on at least once.

A chav isn't a working class person, a chav is an idiot.

[MikeSC]

No one is saying that. The amount of times i have had scuffles with "chavs" is beyond beleif, i'm too old for it now, but everyone i know has been started on at least once.

A chav isn't a working class person, a chav is an idiot.

Fine, fine. I fundamentally disagree, though. If you were young and working class now, you'd know that "chav" is the default. I look and sound like a "chav" myself. You're writing off a generation of working class youth because the Thatcherism we've grown up with has failed- because you've had some bad experiences with individuals that look and dress like the rest.

This is nothing but the "undeserving poor" nonsense the Daily Mail is happy to trot out.

[Killfacer]

Fine, fine. I fundamentally disagree, though. If you were young and working class now, you'd know that "chav" is the default. I look and sound like a "chav" myself. You're writing off a generation of working class youth because the Thatcherism we've grown up with has failed- because you've had some bad experiences with individuals that look and dress like the rest.

This is nothing but the "undeserving poor" nonsense the Daily Mail is happy to trot out.

No, you're putting words in my mouth and seem to be under the delusion that all working class young people are chavs.

[Dr Mindbender]

How many fucking times?

Chavs are a
S U B C U L T U R E.


It may shock and astonish some people, but middle class and upper class people can be chavs too.

Look at Peter Andre and Katie Price ffs. Blinged up to the eyeballs with their sovs and hip hop tunes.

[MilitantAnarchist]

I stand by what i say, you lot dont seem to be in the real world, stressing out because i dont like 'chavs', its got fuck all to do with class, i dont give a shit about class, its who you are what defines you, and that is why i call them 'chavs'... infact, bollocks... im done on this :p i dont need to explain myself.

[Mindtoaster]

Okay, I'm American so I wouldn't really know but... I thought chavs were british "gangsta" wannabes who just travel around in packs of fifty and knife innocent bystanders.

I also heard they were also typically rich kids looking for a thrill

:confused:

[dez]

Aside from the references to "lumpenproletariat" this sounds like something out of one of the tabloids.

It's pretty clear to me, even from outside the UK, that 'chav' is a term used to falsely class all young people who dress a certain way, or listen to a certain type of music, as aggressive thugs with no hope of achieving anything. It's the sort of moral panic that the media loves to generate around young people (particularly working class/poor young people) and their subcultures, and it's pretty sad that people buy into them.

I mean, it's pretty obvious that all this is prejudiced stereotyping based on very little truth, and I can't imagine that it's doing any good for the people in question. I mean- imagine being labelled worthless and aggressive, and only capable of dealing drugs and glassing people... Just because you wear a hoodie and listen to hip-hop...

So yeah, I think the whole idea is reprehensible, and the other classes offered at this gym give a few hints as to their general mindset...

Also- I find it a bit rich that someone who was complaining about being 'discriminated against' for being a punk should stereotype a group of people in this way.

Sure, let's all defend the right of those oppressed petit-bourgeise / lumpenproletariat youths to wear their favourite brand clothing and keep their style.
I mean, that's gotta be some way to rebel against the system, right, feeding the clothing industry?

I find it pretty amusing that people can consider "chavs" working class because rich kids here in brazil have the same dress code and attitude. Yet they often feel that they are better than the actual working class people because they can afford some R$ 300 shoe (minimum wage here is R$ 400) that costs $30 abroad.

[rednordman]

I stand by what i say, you lot dont seem to be in the real world, stressing out because i dont like 'chavs', its got fuck all to do with class, i dont give a shit about class, its who you are what defines you, and that is why i call them 'chavs'... infact, bollocks... im done on this :p i dont need to explain myself. To be fair this part is alittle bit harsh. But can sympathise with you on some things. Alot of so called 'chavs' are from middle-class famillies, BUT if you go on using the term and hating 'chavs', In the end you will be eating into the hands of the rich as, like it or not, chav hatred is their newbourn and they would love hearing your views...even when your blatantly more progressive thinking than they are!:lol:.

As for the whole 'chav boxing' idea. I think it reaks of insecure middle -class people who probable spend many time down the pub infront of their 'cronies' talk down on these 'chav' people, (basically anyone who doesnt fit their criteria of middle class and isnt a total brown nose) trying to act 'hard' and 'valient', when in reality they are scared SHITLESS of them. Simple as...How fucking brave:laugh:. Weekend warriors!!lol

[Andropov]

being working class makes you a chav now?
Your not stupid, you know the stereotypes.
The fact that Chavs are stereotyped as liking clothes that are popular in certain working class communities etc.
Have you not heard the rag definitions of Chav, one of my favourite is "Council House And Violence".
Its a subculture senonimous with the working class just as Spivs before them.
Its a way to dismiss and tar the working class that conform to some of the visual characteristics of a "Chav" such as a tracksuit, fred perry and burberry.

[rednordman]

Your not stupid, you know the stereotypes.
The fact that Chavs are stereotyped as liking clothes that are popular in certain working class communities etc.
Have you not heard the rag definitions of Chav, one of my favourite is "Council House And Violence".
Its a subculture senonimous with the working class just as Spivs before them.
Its a way to dismiss and tar the working class that conform to some of the visual characteristics of a "Chav" such as a tracksuit, fred perry and burberry.Truth be told! It really does smak of the word derogatory. You can say it is down to the individual all you want and of course it does not excuse the crimes and other problems with these c.h.a.vs, but at the bottom of all the hatred of chavs, is a blatant hatred of working class. This has worked to such an extent that, now people who are undoubtably working class, try and pass themselves of as 'not-working class'.

[dez]

http://107fmblogfile.zip.net/images/felipe_dylon_04g.jpg
http://www.fcfelipinho_dylong.blogger.com.br/tdbltbg.JPG
http://www.difusorapiracicaba.com.br/fotos/felipe_dylon.jpg
http://www.buxixo.com.br/upload/news/Center%20Plaza%20Primavera%20Verão%20-%20Felipe%20Dylon%201.jpg

This bozo is the elitism high middle class girl's idol over here, and elitist-high-middle-class boy's role model, talking about people between 10 and 28 years old.
Guess what, he's virtually a chav and still makes money selling the idea that some people are naturally better than others and or more attractive because they can afford X brand clothing, have a certain biotype and act in X way.

They're fucking oppressive. Not to say that I condone wat that obviously polemics-profitting gym did, but the hell with chav culture, fuck petit-bourgeoisism and that the whiners at the guardian may find a worthier cause to champion.
Chavs are a rock in the pathway to class unity.

[rednordman]

http://107fmblogfile.zip.net/images/felipe_dylon_04g.jpg
http://www.fcfelipinho_dylong.blogger.com.br/tdbltbg.JPG
http://www.difusorapiracicaba.com.br/fotos/felipe_dylon.jpg
http://www.buxixo.com.br/upload/news/Center%20Plaza%20Primavera%20Verão%20-%20Felipe%20Dylon%201.jpg

This bozo is the elitism high middle class girl's idol over here, and elitist-high-middle-class boy's role model, talking about people between 10 and 28 years old.
Guess what, he's virtually a chav and still makes money selling the idea that some people are naturally better than others and or more attractive because they can afford X brand clothing, have a certain biotype and act in X way.

They're fucking oppressive. Not to say that I condone wat that obviously polemics-profitting gym did, but the hell with chav culture, fuck petit-bourgeoisism and that the whiners at the guardian may find a worthier cause to champion.
Chavs are a rock in the pathway to class unity.Sorry, he's a spoiled rich kid, not a chav.

[Blackscare]

http://www.fcfelipinho_dylong.blogger.com.br/tdbltbg.JPG

Tell me that isn't a Jets jersey he's wearing! :mad::mad::mad::mad:

Shit like this may send me to an early grave. Or make me a Giants fan. Scratch that, rather be dead.

[dez]

Sorry, he's a spoiled rich kid, not a chav.

He is both.

[Pirate Utopian]

Damn at first I thought this was some sort of Fight Club only then with chavs.

But this is just kinda messed up.

[Sam_b]

A chav is a 14-17 year old who drinks white lightening (or lambrini) in parks, starts fights and generally make a nuisance of themselves

A ridiculous stereotype thats far from the case. How many times do I see a young person wearing a tracksuit and labelled a 'ned' or a 'chav' for doing absolutely nothing? Quite a lot, and I live in one of the poorest areas of Glasgow.

"a Jew is a greedy guy with a big nose...."

[ls]

A ridiculous stereotype thats far from the case. How many times do I see a young person wearing a tracksuit and labelled a 'ned' or a 'chav' for doing absolutely nothing? Quite a lot, and I live in one of the poorest areas of Glasgow.

"a Jew is a greedy guy with a big nose...."

I agree that it's a ridiculous stereotype but it's incomparable to that kind of racism.

[MikeSC]

Sorry, he's a spoiled rich kid, not a chav.

Exactly, that's not even what a "chav" is. I seriously despair at people here who call themselves socialist yet sneer at "chavs". It is complete middle class bigotry. If "chav" is a subculture, it is the dominant subculture of working class youth- everybody wears hoodies and gets pissed on cheap booze- that it is the reality.

You're so completely out of touch with the realities of the British working class that I don't know how you can call yourselves socialist. Unless you're Fabian champagne socialists who like their poor to be grateful and doff their cap whenever some philanthropist makes eye contact.

[cleef]

http://www.asa.org.uk/asa/how_to_complain/complaints_form/

Submit a complaint to the advertising standards agency if you want this checked? Or just punch one of them pricks in the face, whoring themselves handing out the leaflets???

[Killfacer]

Exactly, that's not even what a "chav" is. I seriously despair at people here who call themselves socialist yet sneer at "chavs". It is complete middle class bigotry. If "chav" is a subculture, it is the dominant subculture of working class youth- everybody wears hoodies and gets pissed on cheap booze- that it is the reality.

You're so completely out of touch with the realities of the British working class that I don't know how you can call yourselves socialist. Unless you're Fabian champagne socialists who like their poor to be grateful and doff their cap whenever some philanthropist makes eye contact.

This was really an argument about the definition of what a chav is. I use it to describe agressive kiddies who kick off in parks.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

It does not matter if there is a sub culture of 'chavs'. But I wouldn't call it that. The word itself is classist. It is meant to be discriminatory. It's not hard to tell the word probably came from the mind of a Daily Mail journalist. Chav is a word used to stereotype young people, usually directed towards working class people. I find it sickening to see some of my comrades actually stereotyping people and accepting the term chav.

[The Idler]

In another post you were defending the times from scrutiny; now you are reciting it. You sound like the sort of person that would go to these classes.
Yeah and because I mentioned the Sun in my last post, I suppose you'll accuse me of defending that aswell.
Libsoc gets my award for troll who is most able to miss the point and equating mentioning something with defending it.

While I wouldn't go to these classes, I would support combating the attitudes prevalent in this group (whatever you want to call it) that bling (personal wealth) is cool or aspirational ("Get Rich or Die Tryin'"), and society, solidarity and class struggle is not. Denying the existence of this lumpenproletariat seems to be another feature in your ivory tower.

[lylt]

Being a teenager from Manchester, I get slurred as a "chav" practically every day. The media has led anyone over the age of 21 to believe that every single youth that walks around with a hoodie on is likely to pull out a knife and mug you.
Simply walking down the street is enough to get me a lot of cold glares and staring, even verbal abuse at times. Meeting with more than 5 friends at a time seems to warrant a phone call to the police. It sickens me that such prejudices exist on a supposedly left wing forum.

Everyone is good at heart, circumstances with which they grow up with corrupt them. Almost everyone I know that fits the "chav" stereotype has a single parent family, with very little money and has been given up on by the education system. It is almost impossible to escape this lifestyle when teachers, politicians, the police and the media are turning their noses up at you at every turn. While yes, there may be a few middle-class kids who follow this trend, they are few and far between (where I live, anyway).

Very little "chavs" near me wear fancy clothes and jewelry, and the stuff they do wear is mostly stolen or cheap knock-offs. How would they afford the real thing when struggling to pay for food?

If you discriminate against "chavs" because of the way they dress, the way a minority of them act, or the way they are portrayed in the media, then you're on the wrong forum. Im sure Stormfront would be happy to have you, however.

[dez]

Being a teenager from Manchester, I get slurred as a "chav" practically every day. The media has led anyone over the age of 21 to believe that every single youth that walks around with a hoodie on is likely to pull out a knife and mug you.

Simply walking down the street is enough to get me a lot of cold glares and staring, even verbal abuse at times. Meeting with more than 5 friends at a time seems to warrant a phone call to the police. It sickens me that such prejudices exist on a supposedly left wing forum.



This is wrong, and should be fought.
It does not go under "social-prejudice", though, because "chav" is not working class.



Simply walking down the street is enough to get me a lot of cold glares and staring, even verbal abuse at times. Meeting with more than 5 friends at a time seems to warrant a phone call to the police. It sickens me that such prejudices exist on a supposedly left wing forum.


Left-Wing is not the same as ultraleftist.
I, at least, stand with the working class.
I will not claim as mine every banner that looks like oppression as a rule of thumb.
Oppression is sometimes necessary, wether it is for the consolidation of the dictatorship of the proletariat or not.



Everyone is good at heart, circumstances with which they grow up with corrupt them. Almost everyone I know that fits the "chav" stereotype has a single parent family, with very little money and has been given up on by the education system. It is almost impossible to escape this lifestyle when teachers, politicians, the police and the media are turning their noses up at you at every turn. While yes, there may be a few middle-class kids who follow this trend, they are few and far between (where I live, anyway).


What would be this lifestyle?
If you are claiming what I think you are claiming, that is indeed wrong and should be fought.




Very little "chavs" near me wear fancy clothes and jewelry, and the stuff they do wear is mostly stolen or cheap knock-offs. How would they afford the real thing when struggling to pay for food?


I don't think you understand the nature of revolutionary politics.
I don't think you understand that creating credibility in a conspirational movement amongst the working class is just not possible when you openly associate and advocate for the better treatment of thieves.
Not to say that all "chavs" are thieves, but it is indeed a lumpen subculture that glorifies individual, material wealth and is focused on class/monetary ascension and is exclusive/oppressive as soon as it gets the chance. Like here, in brazil, where the "chavs" are rich spoiled kids, mostly, as well as lumpen working class elements who can afford to hang out with them and not starve.



If you discriminate against "chavs" because of the way they dress, the way a minority of them act, or the way they are portrayed in the media, then you're on the wrong forum. Im sure Stormfront would be happy to have you, however.

...Because stormfront would discriminate against white, petit-bourgeoise teens, as opposed to actively attempt to recruit them, right?

[Zurdito]

btw, this is a cumbiero in argentina. it is not a progressive "subculture" and I do not defend it. it is homophobic, misogynisitc, and brutally individualistic. look familiar? (amazing, people outside the first world can also gel their hair, wear "flashy" clothes, and be proud of their appearance - it doesn't make you "priveliged" or a labour aristocrat, in fact the idolazation of "simple" dressing is often a middle class phenomenon) (btw apologies if these photos bring back trauma to MilitantAnarchist from the days he got bullied at school, but maybe it's time to get over it):

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_oKNg3WM8dr8/R_LSV3XZuVI/AAAAAAAAANs/BFPmREmtY1A/S660/cumbiero+de+marconi2.jpg
http://www.foroswebgratis.com/imagenes_foros/5/0/6/7/7/692206cumbiero.jpg
http://www.muevamueva.com/grupo/ellevante/el-levante-wallpapers-mini.jpg
http://sp9.fotolog.com/photo/25/48/88/arte_villero/1212423164_f.jpg

Guess what, another term for such people is "negro". The Argentinian middle classes will tell you they hate "negros", and then tell you then they meant "negro at heart, not necessarilly by skin", i.e. that it is purely to do with culture and behaviour etc. and not based on race or class. But guess what is the skin tone and class 80% of people who in reality are part of this "subculture".

and guess what, when it comes to hysteria about crime and demands for tougher police powers, for the middle class to arm itself, to put up walls seperating the slums from the rich (which also happens in Brazil so Organ should be more wised up to the dangers of middle class hysteria about "gang culture"), then guess who in reality ends up paying the price for these polices. you guessed it: all the poor and all the workers, even the ones who share middle class prejudices - because they don't relaise that those higher ont he social ladder than them would shoot them just as much as the next "negro" they see hanging round their street.

The same goes for all afro-americans in the US and that is why I don't join in the hysteria about "hip hop culture" even though I don't think 50cent is progressive, the same goes for muslims in Europe which is hwy I don't jump on the liberal bandwagon against "Islamism" even though I do not think Islam is progressive, and the same goes for "chavs" in the UK even though I don't think "chav culture" is progressive.

[Bitter Ashes]

Back to the OP.

While I have no lost love towards gangs, this is worrying. It's almost like Borat and that scene about "Defending against the Jewish Claw".

I suppose that I have one thing to be thankful for with the Chav uniform. It's made it easier for me to avoid gangs in the area by making the violent minority within our class easier to identify and steer clear of.

[rednordman]

I would just like to ask you all one question...If there was a group of "chavs" that decided to set up a class that teaches them to beat up weathyish people, what would the public and media reception of that class be?

Be honest..

[Bitter Ashes]

Rupert Murdoch would have a field day! I'm sure he's been rubbing his jewel encrusted palms together for years at the mere fantasy of such a class. Murdoch would phone up advertising sponsoners and inform them that he's trebling ad fee for the day. He'd publish it and put his signature right wing spin on it and the public would be horrified. Murdoch makes off with a tonne of paper sales and a load of advertising revenue.

Personaly, I wouldnt see the point. Pinpricking the ruling class wont solve anything, it's got to be total defeat which comes only at the hand of mass class action.

[Chambered Word]

Bollocks, i dont usually generalise groups of people, but as a chavs aint exactly the nice kind tolerant people some people seem to think they are.
I dont use it as a term to degrade people, i use it for people who are the shellsuit wearing, old lady mugging, gangsta rap listening, drug dealer wannabe gangster sorts who pretend try to act black but then are racist 5mins later.... that is my experience of 'chavs', and beleive me i do no alot of em where i live.... Im not saying ALL CHAVS are like this, but 9/10 people like that i know and know of, seriously are that bad. So bollocks to all that politically correct shite. David Cameron said 'hug a hoodie' and im fucked if im stooping to the level of a tory to please other peoples views.

(im sure i'm gonna get alot of insults hurled at me now, but it is true)

That's exactly what a chav is, and you have variations of these types in every Western country. I can't stand them. Good on this guy for teaching people to stick it to these bastards.

Lylt, sorry to hear about that.

[Il Medico]

WTF? They are teaching people to beat up the working class? That is beyond wrong! Fuck those rich bastards! Is it not enough they oppress us economically, but do they have to resort to KKK style lynchings of the working class? I say we fight back, defend ourselves!
Fuck those assholes,
Captain Jack

[Chambered Word]

WTF? They are teaching people to beat up the working class? That is beyond wrong! Fuck those rich bastards! Is it not enough they oppress us economically, but do they have to resort to KKK style lynchings of the working class? I say we fight back, defend ourselves!
Fuck those assholes,
Captain Jack

Since when were chavs part of any 'working class'? Chavs don't work. They are too lazy to. That's a complete insult to anyone who works and I'm sure alot of the people in these chav boxing classes are workers themselves, just trying to protect themselves from street scumbags with knives who refuse to work for themselves.

Alot of you need to find out what a chav is and then come back.

[Zurdito]

Since when were chavs part of any 'working class'? Chavs don't work. They are too lazy to. That's a complete insult to anyone who works and I'm sure alot of the people in these chav boxing classes are workers themselves, just trying to protect themselves from street scumbags with knives who refuse to work for themselves.

Alot of you need to find out what a chav is and then come back.

"Chavs don't work". Great definition. So surely if I go out and reaearch it, none of the people judged to be chavs by British society work?

Unemployment in Britain is under 10% (and most of those want work, and are not lazy), but I bet the British middle and ruling class define more than that number of the population as "chavs".

Please stop ranting at everyone that they "don't know what a chav is" when your own definition falls at the first hurdle.

[dez]

and guess what, when it comes to hysteria about crime and demands for tougher police powers, for the middle class to arm itself, to put up walls seperating the slums from the rich (which also happens in Brazil so Organ should be more wised up to the dangers of middle class hysteria about "gang culture"), then guess who in reality ends up paying the price for these polices. you guessed it: all the poor and all the workers,


This is all correct, but you ignore the fact that "playboys" (or the brazilian "chav") are often rich, spoiled kids that live inside these modern feudal enclaves you suggested, and middle class youth glorifies gang culture as opposed to considering it a skin-tone-based thing. Possibly because "chav" culture is not working class, you know.

[Zurdito]

This is all correct, but you ignore the fact that "playboys" (or the brazilian "chav") are often rich, spoiled kids that live inside these modern feudal enclaves you suggested, and middle class youth glorifies gang culture as opposed to considering it a skin-tone-based thing. Possibly because "chav" culture is not working class, you know.

Obviously "chav" culture is not "working class" culture, as Marx said, in any society, the dominant ideas are those of the ruling class, so the idea that there could be a "working class culture" under capitalism wrong. Trotsky also wrote about that. But actually I said that "chav" culture is not progressive and copies the individualistic values of neoliberal society, so I don't know who you are "correcting".

In any case, your Brazilian definition of a "chav" si interesting and I thank you for it, but it has nothing to do with the British definition, which we are discussing here. It may well be true that priveliged sectors of Brazilian society "import" aspects of a "chav" culture which is inorganic to Brazil, this happens with "hip hop culture" in Argentina, but if I wanted to make an analogy for "hip hop culture" in the US by comparing it with "hip hop culture" in Argentina it would be worthless, because in the former it is a form of mass expression, and in the latter, not. Instead I would have to compare it to "cumbiero" or "villero" culture.

When the British middle classes and bourgeoisie talk about a "chav" they are using a stereotype about the "undeserving poor" etc. to justify reactionary social policies against single mothers, youth, the unemployed, criminals, etc.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Obviously "chav" culture is not "working class" culture, as Marx said, in any society, the dominant ideas are those of the working class, so the idea that there could be a "working class culture" under capitalism wrong. Trotsky also wrote about that. But actually I said that "chav" culture is not progressive and copies the individualistic values of neoliberal society, so I don't know who you are "correcting".

In any case, your Brazilian definition of a "chav" si interesting and I thank you for it, but it has nothing to do with the British definition, which we are discussing here. It may well be true that priveliged sectors of Brazilian society "import" aspects of a "chav" culture which is inorganic to Brazil, this happens with "hip hop culture" in Argentina, but if I wanted to make an analogy for "hip hop culture" in the US by comparing it with "hip hop culture" in Argentina it would be worthless, because in the former it is a form of mass expression, and in the latter, not. Instead I would have to compare it to "cumbiero" or "villero" culture.

When the British middle classes and bourgeoisie talk about a "chav" they are using a stereotype about the "undeserving poor" etc. to justify reactionary social policies against single mothers, youth, the unemployed, criminals, etc.

This is exactly what the word was invented by the bourgeois media to mean. Those saying 'chavs' aren't all working class are not understanding what the word is MEANT to mean, what it stereotypes. It is not just a word that explains a certain group of people who listen to a sort of music, or who dress a certain way like Punk or Goth is. Because chav is a derogotary word. No one descirbes themselves as chav. It is just a classist, discriminatory word.

[dez]

Obviously "chav" culture is not "working class" culture, as Marx said, in any society, the dominant ideas are those of the working class, so the idea that there could be a "working class culture" under capitalism wrong. Trotsky also wrote about that. But actually I said that "chav" culture is not progressive and copies the individualistic values of neoliberal society, so I don't know who you are "correcting".

In any case, your Brazilian definition of a "chav" si interesting and I thank you for it, but it has nothing to do with the British definition, which we are discussing here. It may well be true that priveliged sectors of Brazilian society "import" aspects of a "chav" culture which is inorganic to Brazil, this happens with "hip hop culture" in Argentina, but if I wanted to make an analogy for "hip hop culture" in the US by comparing it with "hip hop culture" in Argentina it would be worthless, because in the former it is a form of mass expression, and in the latter, not. Instead I would have to compare it to "cumbiero" or "villero" culture.

When the British middle classes and bourgeoisie talk about a "chav" they are using a stereotype about the "undeserving poor" etc. to justify reactionary social policies against single mothers, youth, the unemployed, criminals, etc.


I don't know about trotsky, but what marx said was that "The dominant ideas in any society are always the ideas of the ruling class.".
The ruling class is in control of the media, the means for education and exercizes a top-to-bottom social pressure to disseminate ideas.
So it makes sense.

I was not "correcting" anything, but merely pointing out to a factor that you repeatedly fail to ignore: Rich kids over here have the same culture as these petit-bourgeoise british citizens have and are equally hated by the working class here. Except no one does anything out of fear. These "chavs" want to ascend socially, get out of poverty and maybe start exploiting the people that are still poor? This culture glorifies individual monetary ascencion at any cost, and is a tool of alienation of the capitalist system that should be fought.
Reactionary policies against single mothers, youth, the unemployed, criminals, etc, we should strike hard against, yet we should not waste political capital with defending this lifestyle, as we are concerned with changing relations of production and building a better world for everyone and again I must point you out to the fact that these guys are directly opposed to it.

[dez]

http://jus2.uol.com.br/pecas/texto.asp?id=1

[Zurdito]

I don't know about trotsky, but what marx said was that "The dominant ideas in any society are always the ideas of the ruling class.".


yesit was a typo by me, I have now corrected it. Though I thought from the content of my post it was obvious I meant this...



Rich kids over here have the same culture as these petit-bourgeoise british citizens have and are equally hated by the working class here.


Who judged that these British citizens are petit-bourgeois and what relevance does it have that Brazilian "rich kids" copy their culture? In Argentina there are a lot of similarities between "slum culture" and British "chav culture", incidentally.



Except no one does anything out of fear. These "chavs" want to ascend socially, get out of poverty and maybe start exploiting the people that are still poor? This culture glorifies individual monetary ascencion at any cost, and is a tool of alienation of the capitalist system that should be fought.


Most working class people want to ascend socially (many call those who don't "chavs" or the equivalent, ironically). That is the way under capitalism. How are you going to "fight" it? By putting them all in gulags?

I am in favour of building a socialist project to overcome individualism and lumpen or petty bourgeois values within the working class. But when the middle and ruling classes are using these stereotypes to attack all the poor and all the workers, I am on the side of those being attacked.

I don't see how much more explanation you need. I thought I was clear from the beginning.

[dez]

yesit was a typo by me, I have now corrected it. Though I thought from the content of my post it was obvious I meant this...


The simple fact that the dominant ideas are often the ideas of the ruling classes do not exclude the possibility for "grassroots'", working class culture though.
I believe marx wrote a lot on that subject on the latter days of his life.



Who judged that these British citizens are petit-bourgeois and what relevance does it have that Brazilian "rich kids" copy their culture? In Argentina there are a lot of similarities between "slum culture" and British "chav culture", incidentally.


Point is that this culture is as much theirs as it is from brazilian rich kids.
It is not.
It is yet another tool of the capitalist system to foster consumption and alienate people from the reality they live in.




Most working class people want to ascend socially (many call those who don't "chavs" or the equivalent, ironically). That is the way under capitalism. How are you going to "fight" it? By putting them all in gulags?


I wonder why you made the last comment.


The way to fight capitalism is to provide an alternative, the revolutionary pathway, and "chavs" are more likely to be working against the revolution than in its favor.




I am in favour of building a socialist project to overcome individualism and lumpen or petty bourgeois values within the working class. But when the middle and ruling classes are using these stereotypes to attack all the poor and all the workers, I am on the side of those being attacked.

I don't see how much more explanation you need. I thought I was clear from the beginning.

You're not siding with the workers by defending "chavs", but siding with "chavs". You're defending the lifestyle, not the people. Fact is that many workers will look at you with despise because in their opinion you will be defending thieves, so you're also going against the point of building credibility amongst the proletariat. Why would you do that for?
To manage a few extra benefits for "chavs" under the capitalist structure? This is counter productive to an extreme to the revolutionary cause.
Unless you don't want a revolution and want to change things gradually through the "democratic" process, but then you are a social democrat.

[Zurdito]

Oragn, the trouble is that "chav" is a stereotype, so it's worthless to try to have a conversation with someone who insists on using it to mean "lumpenproleteriat". It doesn't mean that. It means whoever the the middle classes and ruling classes want to demonise and ridicule as lacking in education and values, and demonise as being undeserving. For this reason we should oppose use of the term and all the attempts to demonise "chavs" as this is a slippery slope towards general violence and repression against anyone deemed unacceptable by bourgeois society.

Incidentally though, if we are going to have a discussion on the lumpenproletariat (which is not synonymous with "chav"), then yes, I do think we should defend them from state attacks, even though I thinkt hey are generally a conservaive force: as a Leninist I believe the working class needs to become "tribune of the people" and defend all oppressed groups, in order to form the widest alliance possible: women (bourgeois when they are being discriminated against, middle class or workers), all ethnic minorities, homosexuals regardless of class, the long term unemployed, the incarcerated, etc.

This does not mean accepting when parts of these groups are acting agaisnt the working class, but it does mean on our own terms proposing an alliance to them, because we have a potential common interest in overcoming the injustices of the capitalist system. I think that middle and ruling class violence against "thieves" is reactionary, even if I agree with workers taking action to protect themselves from those same thieves when they steal from workers.

This is basically what any progressive would say, it's worrying that some "revolutionaries" seem to have less enlightened social policies than most centre-leftists.

[dez]

Oragn, the trouble is that "chav" is a stereotype, so it's worthless to try to have a conversation with someone who insists on using it to mean "lumpenproleteriat". It doesn't mean that. It means whoever the the middle classes and ruling classes want to demonise and ridicule as lacking in education and values, and demonise as being undeserving. For this reason we should oppose use of the term and all the attempts to demonise "chavs" as this is a slippery slope towards general violence and repression against anyone deemed unacceptable by bourgeois society.


Opposing capitalism should be our priority!
Regardless of how much you oppose reactionary policies of the bourgeoise, they will keep coming.
Merely because they own the means of production, the media, the government and have more influence over society than the citizen has over it.
You will not change anything with reforms.



Incidentally though, if we are going to have a discussion on the lumpenproletariat (which is not synonymous with "chav"), then yes, I do think we should defend them from state attacks, even though I thinkt hey are generally a conservaive force: as a Leninist I believe the working class needs to become "tribune of the people" and defend all oppressed groups, in order to form the widest alliance possible: women (bourgeois when they are being discriminated against, middle class or workers), all ethnic minorities, homosexuals regardless of class, the long term unemployed, the incarcerated, etc.


Nothing I ever said contradicts this "tribune of the people" suggestion, and as a matter of fact, I already said something very similar.
We should defend the people against bourgeoise attacks, in a class war fashion, but the lumpenproletariat, while deserves protection as they are also humans, is not to be associated or incorporated as a class in the revolutionary movement because they will most likely be our direct opponents!
Who do you think will be murdering progressive leaderships, bombing party centres and creating havoc in general in demonstrations?
The bourgeoise in their fancy suits?




This does not mean accepting when parts of these groups are acting agaisnt the working class, but it does mean on our own terms proposing an alliance to them, because we have a potential common interest in overcoming the injustices of the capitalist system. I think that middle and ruling class violence against "thieves" is reactionary, even if I agree with workers taking action to protect themselves from those same thieves when they steal from workers.


They do not wish to overcome the injustices of the capitalist system but to enjoy of them themselves and are, thus, reactionary.
You can't seriously expect someone who glorifies "smarts" and monetary accumulation to cooperate in a solidary worker's front.



This is basically what any progressive would say, it's worrying that some "revolutionaries" seem to have less enlightened social policies than most centre-leftists.

Lenin too had a less enlightened foreign policy (which affected the entire country) than most centre-leftists.



In 1918 things did not reach a split. At that time the "Left" Communists formed only a separate group or "faction" within our Party, and that not for long. In the same year, 1918, the most prominent representatives of "Left Communism", for example, Comrades Radek and Bukharin, openly acknowledged their error. It had seemed to them that the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk was a compromise with the imperialists, which was inexcusable on principle and harmful to the party of the revolutionary proletariat. It was indeed a compromise with the imperialists, but it was a compromise which, under the circumstances, had to be made.

Today, when I hear our tactics in signing the Brest-Litovsk Treaty being attacked by the Socialist-Revolutionaries, for instance, or when I hear Comrade Lansbury say, in a conversation with me, "Our British trade union leaders say that if it was permissible for the Bolsheviks to compromise, it is permissible for them to compromise too", I usually reply by first of all giving a simple and "popular" example:

Imagine that your car is held up by armed bandits. You hand them over your money, passport, revolver and car. In return you are rid of the pleasant company of the bandits. That is unquestionably a compromise. "Do ut des" (I "give" you money, fire-arms and a car "so that you give" me the opportunity to get away from you with a whole skin). It would, however, be difficult to find a sane man who would declare such a compromise to be "inadmissible on principle", or who would call the compromiser an accomplice of the bandits (even though the bandits might use the car and the firearms for further robberies). Our compromise with the bandits of German imperialism was just that kind of compromise.

But when, in 1914-18 and then in 1918-20, the Mensheviks and Socialist-Revolutionaries in Russia, the Scheidemannites (and to a large extent the Kautskyites) in Germany, Otto Bauer and Friedrich Adler (to say nothing of the Renners and Co.) in Austria, the Renaudels and Longuets and Co. in France, the Fabians, the Independents and the Labourites in Britain entered into compromises with the bandits of their own bourgeoisie, and sometimes of the "Allied" bourgeoisie, and against the revolutionary proletariat of their own countries, all these gentlemen were actually acting as accomplices in banditry.

The conclusion is clear: to reject compromises "on principle", to reject the permissibility of compromises in general, no matter of what kind, is childishness, which it is difficult even to consider seriously. A political leader who desires to be useful to the revolutionary proletariat must be able to distinguish concrete cases of compromises that are inexcusable and are an expression of opportunism and treachery; he must direct all the force of criticism, the full intensity of merciless exposure and relentless war, against these concrete compromises, and not allow the past masters of "practical" socialism and the parliamentary Jesuits to dodge and wriggle out of responsibility by means of disquisitions on "compromises in general". It is in this way that the "leaders,, of the British trade unions, as well as of the Fabian society and the "Independent" Labour Party, dodge responsibility for the treachery they have perpetrated’ for having made a compromise that is really tantamount to the worst kind of opportunism, treachery and betrayal.

There are different kinds of compromises. One must be able to analyse the situation and the concrete conditions of each compromise, or of each variety of compromise. One must learn to distinguish between a man who has given up his money and fire-arms to bandits so as to lessen the evil they can do and to facilitate their capture and execution, and a man who gives his money and fire-arms to bandits so as to share in the loot. In politics this is by no means always as elementary as it is in this childishly simple example. However, anyone who is out to think up for the workers some kind of recipe that will provide them with cut-and-dried solutions for all contingencies, or promises that the policy of the revolutionary proletariat will never come up against difficult or complex situations, is simply a charlatan.

[Andropov]

Since when were chavs part of any 'working class'? Chavs don't work. They are too lazy to. That's a complete insult to anyone who works and I'm sure alot of the people in these chav boxing classes are workers themselves, just trying to protect themselves from street scumbags with knives who refuse to work for themselves.
Define a "chav".

Alot of you need to find out what a chav is and then come back.
Ive been called a chav before but I dont knife people on the street?

[The Idler]

Some people call chavs "wiggers" which makes the distinction between the poor and the chavs clearer.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7b2oCYgfik

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Some people call chavs "wiggers" which makes the distinction between the poor and the chavs clearer.s7b2oCYgfik

Sorry I don't understand your point at all. Could you please expand upon it.

[Zurdito]

so Darelljohn, trying to understand the logic of posting that video, you would think it ok to go "n****r boxing" classes and to launch a hate campaign against "n****rs", because "not all black people are n****r's"?:confused:hmm I wonder what road that could lead you down...

I think making a comparison with that word is the perfect example of why not to say "chav", and not at all argument for saying it.

[The Idler]

so Darelljohn, trying to understand the logic of posting that video, you would think it ok to go "n****r boxing" classes and to launch a hate campaign against "n****rs", because "not all black people are n****r's"?:confused:hmm I wonder what road that could lead you down...

I think making a comparison with that word is the perfect example of why not to say "chav", and not at all argument for saying it.That's probably a bad example except for the fact the chav boxing classes are in a country with a white ethnic majority who have never been discriminated against or enslaved for centuries in the same way.

[lylt]

who have never been discriminated against

This thread says otherwise :P

[Killfacer]

This is exactly what the word was invented by the bourgeois media to mean. Those saying 'chavs' aren't all working class are not understanding what the word is MEANT to mean, what it stereotypes. It is not just a word that explains a certain group of people who listen to a sort of music, or who dress a certain way like Punk or Goth is. Because chav is a derogotary word. No one descirbes themselves as chav. It is just a classist, discriminatory word.

Hmm, despite what i said earlier, i have to admit that this is probably correct.

[#FF0000]

The fact of the matter is that most of you idiots who go on and on about chavs identify people as chavs by looking at their clothes and that is all. After you've got those cues, you tack on all the other stereotypes; the drinking, the anti-social activity, all that bullshit.


UH UH UH BUT I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH PEOPLE WHO WEAR THOSE CLOTHES. JUST THE ONES THAT ARE CRIMINALS HURR DURF

Yeah, bullshit. You see the clothes, you assume. Otherwise, the only people who you could identify as a "chav" are the people who committed a crime you were witness to, and you wouldn't whine so fucking much. I challenge any one of you to prove me wrong.

I can't believe there are people who think they are leftists but fall for this ridiculous shit. What, do you have some right-wing friends to appease or something? Did you get tired of getting called "PC" at work?

[Bitter Ashes]

On the issue of the clothes, I always saw it as like them choosing to put on a uniform. I'm on the lower end of working class too, but I'll deliberatly avoid wearing big hoopy earrings and tracksuits and that's nothign to do with bieng identified as working class, it's all to do with people thinking that I'm going to be aggressive if they see me choosing to wear those clothes. So, I'll dress for comfort rather than wanting to conform to wearing a uniform that's come to be adopted by some violent members of our communities.

[scarletghoul]

I know loads of chavs who are nice people. Some are ****s, but thats the same with all classes

Scaeme\Ranma you shouldnt let peoples prejudices influence the way you dress or anything. Sure its good to dress for comfort but just as long as thats all it is, and its not out of fear

Also I think hoopy earrings look nice, haha.

[Oktyabr]

Pardon me for asking, but what is a chav?

[Bitter Ashes]

I know loads of chavs who are nice people. Some are ****s, but thats the same with all classes

Scaeme\Ranma you shouldnt let peoples prejudices influence the way you dress or anything. Sure its good to dress for comfort but just as long as thats all it is, and its not out of fear

Also I think hoopy earrings look nice, haha.
It's my own predjudices tbh. I've been attacked several times both physically and verbally by individuals who choose to wear those clothes. I learned to be very wary around those people.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Pardon me for asking, but what is a chav?

Chav is a derogtary term usually applied to young people in Britain. Stereotypically this means a white teenager or young person, who wears branded sports wear and who is working class. It is perceived that chavs go about engaging in acts of anti-social behaviour.

[MilitantAnarchist]

I think the problem here is the deffinition of a 'chav'... to me, it isnt JUST someone who is young, working class and in a tracksuit.... To me it is the acts that define them, i'm young and working class, but im just not in a tracksuit. so there is no 'snobbery' about it.
I have mates who are that deffinition of chav... but wouldnt call themselves chavs..... It is the actions of 'violence, robbery, racism, sexism' or whatever that make them 'chavs'.


Chav is a derogtary term usually applied to young people in Britain. Stereotypically this means a white teenager or young person, who wears branded sports wear and who is working class. It is perceived that chavs go about engaging in acts of anti-social behaviour.

I dont no where your from, but where i live it is 'chavs' that are 'engaging in acts of anti-social behaviour' (as you call it). Its got fuck all to do with class, it isnt the issue for me (not that im speaking for everyone who does insult chavs). Also it isnt just aimed at people in 'tracksuits', generally it is, but people in jeans and a shirt could be called a chav, if they ACT like a chav.
So to clear up what ive said, NOT CLASS DISCRIMINATION it isnt even discrimination... its just an word to describe a person who acts like a twat and rips off their own.

[#FF0000]

I think the problem here is the deffinition of a 'chav'... to me, it isnt JUST someone who is young, working class and in a tracksuit.... To me it is the acts that define them, i'm young and working class, but im just not in a tracksuit. so there is no 'snobbery' about it.
I have mates who are that deffinition of chav... but wouldnt call themselves chavs..... It is the actions of 'violence, robbery, racism, sexism' or whatever that make them 'chavs'.

Really. So if you see a guy in a classic chav getup, you're not going to automatically think "CHAV"? That's bullshit.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

I dont no where your from, but where i live it is 'chavs' that are 'engaging in acts of anti-social behaviour' (as you call it). Its got fuck all to do with class, it isnt the issue for me (not that im speaking for everyone who does insult chavs). Also it isnt just aimed at people in 'tracksuits', generally it is, but people in jeans and a shirt could be called a chav, if they ACT like a chav.
So to clear up what ive said, NOT CLASS DISCRIMINATION it isnt even discrimination... its just an word to describe a person who acts like a twat and rips off their own.

That's the streotypical things people call people chavs for looking like. It is discrimination, shall I tell you why? Do the people that are referred to as chavs by others call themselves chavs? NO. That's because the word is used in derogatory sense towards them. It is a stupid stereotype used to scapegoat the youth by the bourgeois media, most likely The Sun and The Daily Mail.

[Jazzratt]

I've seen and recieved abuse from people in tracksuits and hoodies. And people in shirts and jeans. And people in suits. I used to have a big thing against "chavs" but it really does strike me as stupid now, the problem isn't various working class subcultures. THe problem is dickheads.

[MilitantAnarchist]

Really. So if you see a guy in a classic chav getup, you're not going to automatically think "CHAV"? That's bullshit.

Not really no...
Its all about definitions of what words are... the 'bourgeois' media (as you call it, i dont use that word because its a shit word that sounds like somthing the bourgeois would use, just cos 'marx' used it, i call em middle class fuck wits or tory wankers)... the same media people say ANARCHY is CHAOS... and is it? corse its not. i read an article a while ago about that lad from liverpool i think when a 14year old shot an 11year old, and they called it ANARCHY.
I really dont discriminate against chavs (well MY DEFINITION of a chav i do, but not 'just cos they in a tracksuit).

Your right it is discrimination, because i know it is is because ive felt it because of the way i look... and i think ive even had it of PEOPLE HERE, even people who are probibly reading this right now!, especially the mods....
I made a thread called Punk Discrimination, and it got moved to chit chat.... disregarded as not discrimination.... but insulting chavs is discrimination?
Maybe it is those people who think that, maybe they are 'bourgeois'?
How come i had no deffence of my subculture?

I get discrimination from 'chavs' and 'suits' and 'nazis' and anyone you can imagine, i get it from them. So i get it, but when and if you feel descrimination from any of those other 'subcultures' you are going do discriminate against them it is natural... but you have to realise they arent all the same, as i do.... so i no ALL CHAVS arent scum, but the ones i call chavs are the ones who are scum... the ones who dont hurt me or people i know are just people....

[#FF0000]

I get discrimination from 'chavs' and 'suits' and 'nazis' and anyone you can imagine, i get it from them. So i get it, but when and if you feel descrimination from any of those other 'subcultures' you are going do discriminate against them it is natural...

No. It's childish.

[MilitantAnarchist]

No. It's childish.

see how did i know you would pick that bit out? because its easy to argue against?
Your sounding the same as the rest of the people i hate, just passing any argument off as childish at your convenience...
What about the rest of what i said?
And also, where do you draw the line on discrimination? Those people on the BNP members list loosing their jobs, is that discrimination? Do you think they should keep their positions?

[#FF0000]

see how did i know you would pick that bit out? because its easy to argue against?

It's easy to argue against because it's stupid. It's the same flawed thought process that racists use.


hurr but i know alls sorts of black ppl and ther meen 2 me n weer certin cloths and music and there hudlums.Of course, hating on chavs or any other subculture like that isn't quite the same thing as racism. However, the thought pattern is the same and just as flawed.


Your sounding the same as the rest of the people i hate, just passing any argument off as childish at your convenience...Did you ever consider maybe they pass off your arguments as childish becasue

they are?

Just a thought.


And also, where do you draw the line on discrimination? Those people on the BNP members list loosing their jobs, is that discrimination? Do you think they should keep their positions?You see, the difference between a chav and a fascist is this. Chavs wear burberry and chains and some even cause petty trouble around the neighborhood, and fascists want to deport everyone with a skintone darker than khaki and subjugate everyone to the will of the state.

But I'll actually answer your question.

Should they lose their jobs?

No, unless they're teachers or cops. But I don't really care, to be quite honest.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

i no ALL CHAVS arent scum, but the ones i call chavs are the ones who are scum... the ones who dont hurt me or people i know are just people....

Yes but it is a bigoted generalisation about a group of people who dress in a certain way and who are from a certain background. There is no point singling out some 'chavs' as scum, there are people who are scum everywhere.

[Sort It Out Frosty]

Considering "chavs" are the people who pre-Thatcher would have gone into the working class jobs that just aren't there any more, I consider this an attack on the working class. The capitalists destroyed a culture and sneer at people born into the void they created.

Who wants to form a "Battering the middle class class"?

[Puts hand timidly in the air]

[Stranger Than Paradise]

[Puts hand timidly in the air]

Fuck timidly [puts two hands above his head, clenched in fists, and says "fuck yeah!"]

[MilitantAnarchist]

Yes but it is a bigoted generalisation about a group of people who dress in a certain way and who are from a certain background. There is no point singling out some 'chavs' as scum, there are people who are scum everywhere.

I no that, and i think i even said that.... scum are scum, no matter what they dress like, because all it is, is clothes....
I aint never gonna win this argument because there is too much tunnel vision here...

Im nothing like a fucking racist so dont even call that card!
I am working class so how can i hate people who are working class?
People i would call chavs are people who rip off their own class, not because they wear tacky adidas shellsuits....

But as that other bloke i quoted said an arse is an arse no matter what his/her culture is...
If they changed the name of the class to 'Twat Boxing' maybe we wouldnt have this argument.

[MilitantAnarchist]

Also to any c u next tuesday (see i didnt swear) who likes to talk shit and pick on what i say, calling it immature, i dont give a shit

The people who mind dont matter, and the people who matter dont mind...

My favorite saying, and not a truer word spoken

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Also to any c u next tuesday (see i didnt swear) who likes to talk shit and pick on what i say, calling it immature, i dont give a shit

The people who mind dont matter, and the people who matter dont mind...

My favorite saying, and not a truer word spoken

What do you mean I don't understand?

[MilitantAnarchist]

read it again

[nuisance]

It is discrimination, shall I tell you why? Do the people that are referred to as chavs by others call themselves chavs? NO. That's because the word is used in derogatory sense towards them. .
Well that's not true at all, plenty of stereotypical chavs consider themselves as so, you have to be living in a box to believe otherwise.

[Chambered Word]

"Chavs don't work". Great definition. So surely if I go out and reaearch it, none of the people judged to be chavs by British society work?

Unemployment in Britain is under 10% (and most of those want work, and are not lazy), but I bet the British middle and ruling class define more than that number of the population as "chavs".

Please stop ranting at everyone that they "don't know what a chav is" when your own definition falls at the first hurdle.

No, chavs usually don't work. Most of them are teenagers.

Chavs are the types who hang around on street corners and pick fights with people, stab people, do drugs etc. Have a look at urbandictionary.com's definitions if you want a general idea.

You could call them part of the lumpenproletariat, although I'm sure many of them are stereotypical 'spoiled little rich kids'.

Violent crime, especially with knives, has been on the rise in Britain and ordinary people have the right to defend themselves if they're attacked on the streets by these pricks.


Originally Posted by Bakunin-Kropotkin http://www.revleft.com/vb/revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1442727#post1442727)
It is discrimination, shall I tell you why? Do the people that are referred to as chavs by others call themselves chavs? NO. That's because the word is used in derogatory sense towards them. .


They do, actually.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

This issue is though is that not all "chavs" are knife wielding , granny smacking ****s. The issue is that the negative stereotype of a chav has being used by the media to represent the working class and this is reflected some what in society (Remember the daily mail does not give a fuck about the means of production but defines class along cultural lines). So the term has become a derogatory term for working class people which is socially acceptable to use in many social circles.

Why should we not use the word chav just because some chinless freaks use it to insult working class people?

Because simply it is making it more sociable acceptable to attack the poor and the vulnerable the amount of times i have heard some thick twat rant on about "those single mother chav pikey scum in council houses sponging of benefits" is amazing and it is made more and more socially acceptable the use of the word chav.

[Jazzratt]

Comrade Lewis strikes again with his stunning analysis of crime.

Violent crime, especially with knives, has been on the rise in Britain and ordinary people have the right to defend themselves if they're attacked on the streets by these pricks.
Yep. Violent crime is on the rise because people are pricks. You heard it here first. Crime isn't on the rise because economic conditions are worsening or anything. Chavs are just pricks.

Oh yeah:

No, chavs usually don't work.
:scared: They have the audacity to be unemployd!

[Pogue]

I'm a chav and I do boxing.

[Bitter Ashes]

This issue is though is that not all "chavs" are knife wielding , granny smacking ****s. The issue is that the negative stereotype of a chav has being used by the media to represent the working class and this is reflected some what in society (Remember the daily mail does not give a fuck about the means of production but defines class along cultural lines). So the term has become a derogatory term for working class people which is socially acceptable to use in many social circles.

Why should we not use the word chav just because some chinless freaks use it to insult working class people?

Because simply it is making it more sociable acceptable to attack the poor and the vulnerable the amount of times i have heard some thick twat rant on about "those single mother chav pikey scum in council houses sponging of benefits" is amazing and it is made more and more socially acceptable the use of the word chav.
Considerable parts of the working class youth in Britain do not wear chav uniforms though. As a general rule, this is usualy because they want to avoid bieng labeled a thug. Chav clothing is a uniform which has been associated with violence and anti-social behavior for some time and those who enjoy that kind of a label pay a premium to wear that uniform. A good comparison may be somebody walking down the street with a skinhead and jackboots, or a balaclava and militaria, or an armoured jacket. It's intended to intimidate and those who choose to fork out extra to wear these clothes do so for with that intention. Those who pick fights, or deliberatly intimidate other workers for pleasure are no friends of mine.

[pastradamus]

The continuation of our species is supposedly based on finding an adequate and suitable mate. Shows we`re not fully evolved when a criminal record and a new burburry hat and a gold chain are considered desirable traits.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

The issue is the media perception of class and using "chavs" to make it acceptable to attack the poor. Not the premuim prices of four pound trackies and polo shirts.

[ls]

The continuation of our species is supposedly based on finding an adequate and suitable mate. Shows we`re not fully evolved when a criminal record and a new burburry hat and a gold chain are considered desirable traits.

Fuck off and and stop buying into ridiculous daily mail stereotypes as if 20% of the country wets themselves over getting an ASBO.

It seems someone has not "fully evolved" a brain.

[*Viva La Revolucion*]

I've always seen the word 'chav' as a reference to anti-social behaviour and attitudes, but now it does seem to have taken on the meaning 'working class', which is unfair. Stand-up comedians use it quite a bit when they want to tell jokes about poor areas/communities/families and that's not acceptable either. The problem with the word chav is that it dehumanizes an entire group of people - it's like a new form of racism where, instead of treating black people as sub-human, they're treating chavs as non-people. Look what happened in Austria and Germany when people started thinking of the Jews as an inferior race. OK, maybe that example's too extreme, but you get the idea. It's strange how in the UK you can have loads of money and still be regarded as 'common'; that really shows the rigidity of the class system and how ingrained the prejudices behind it still are.

Having said that, there are certain people who go all out to fit into the chav stereotype. :rolleyes:

If we get rid of words like chav, can we also throw out words like toff? Both are discriminatory. I don't want to treat the middle/upper classes as the enemy; I just want to treat everyone as though they are the same (a classless society)

[ls]

No because the bourgeoisie are the enemy.

[Old Man Diogenes]

This issue is though is that not all "chavs" are knife wielding , granny smacking ****s.

If someone is a "chav" they usually are those things, otherwise they're just someone dressed in jogging bottoms and hodded tops, though I've never understood the hooded tops one, because loads of people wear them, not just people classed as "chavs". :confused:


Why should we not use the word chav just because some chinless freaks use it to insult working class people?

I've never heard anyone (apart from probably the media) use the word "chav" with class conotations, usually people use it to describe "the types who hang around on street corners and pick fights with people" and thats how I'd use it, I wouldn't call someone a "chav" just because they're working class that's ridiculously ignorant, the label shouldn't be used to describe the look of people it should be used to describe their actions.

[Old Man Diogenes]

Chavs are the types who hang around on street corners and pick fights with people.

To me they're generally twats not particularly chavs, a lot of people these days do that anyway, or maybe I just live in a hostile climate.

[*Viva La Revolucion*]

No because the bourgeoisie are the enemy.

Only in an economic sense. That doesn't mean they're all horrendous, evil people, and treating them differently only widens the gap between classes. Even if the bourgeoisie ceased to exist in a communist country, the people who used to be the bourgeoisie would still be living in that society and I just don't think snobbery of any kind helps, whether it's criticising 'chavs' or laughing at people because they have a 'posh' accent. They're both the same thing.

To give an example, my friend's dad is a financial advisor (boo! ;)) and he owns various companies and employs loads of people. Yes, he is the enemy, but he's also quite nice. And my friend is possibly the kindest person I've ever met, despite coming from a bourgeoisie family.

Basically, all I'm saying is: don't discriminate against people you've never met.

[ls]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Only in an economic sense. That doesn't mean they're all horrendous, evil people

Most of them are.


and treating them differently only widens the gap between classes.

So we should treat prince Harry just like "one of our own".


Even if the bourgeoisie ceased to exist in a communist country, the people who used to be the bourgeoisie would still be living in that society and I just don't think snobbery of any kind helps, whether it's criticising 'chavs' or laughing at people because they have a 'posh' accent. They're both the same thing.

No it isn't the same thing at all, we're right to criticise them and they shouldn't be criticising us.

Or are you next going to tell us "middle and upper-class people do all the work and working-class people are lazy scum, we should be siding with the bourgeoisie too".


To give an example, my friend's dad is a financial advisor (boo! ;)) and he owns various companies and employs loads of people. Yes, he is the enemy, but he's also quite nice. And my friend is possibly the kindest person I've ever met, despite coming from a bourgeoisie family.

A friend who comes from a bourgeoisie family is not necessarily themselves bourgeoisie, your financial advisor dad's friend whatever should probably be killed.


don't discriminate against people you've never met.

No, I will do that if it seems fair.

That was fun kids!

[Pogue]

i think its humerous that this thread is dominated by people who completely misunderstand chavs and/or have no experience of them

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

If someone is a "chav" they usually are those things, otherwise they're just someone dressed in jogging bottoms and hodded tops, though I've never understood the hooded tops one, because loads of people wear them, not just people classed as "chavs". :confused:

No , people dont identify chavs moments after a knife has being pulled but because of the music taste , the fashion sense and the choice of language is how people identify "chavs" not by there behavior but by there belonging to a sub culture which the media uses to represent all white working class people.




I've never heard anyone (apart from probably the media) use the word "chav" with class conotations, usually people use it to describe "the types who hang around on street corners and pick fights with people" and thats how I'd use it, I wouldn't call someone a "chav" just because they're working class that's ridiculously ignorant, the label shouldn't be used to describe the look of people it should be used to describe their actions.

You wouldnt because you post on revleft. Most people dont. Do you really have no friends from better off areas of town or whatever who point out the area you live in is a "chav" area because its run down and has alot of people who dress in hoodies and trackies. ?

[Pogue]

for the boards information i love wearing lonsdale

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Nike is better.

[Pogue]

no way, its only the posh kids who wear nike cos its more expensive

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

You just cant afford nike because your havnt met your weekly granny mugging quota.

[Pogue]

You just cant afford nike because your havnt met your weekly granny mugging quota.

rudeboys dont cry

[Pogue]

Considerable parts of the working class youth in Britain do not wear chav uniforms though. As a general rule, this is usualy because they want to avoid bieng labeled a thug. Chav clothing is a uniform which has been associated with violence and anti-social behavior for some time and those who enjoy that kind of a label pay a premium to wear that uniform. A good comparison may be somebody walking down the street with a skinhead and jackboots, or a balaclava and militaria, or an armoured jacket. It's intended to intimidate and those who choose to fork out extra to wear these clothes do so for with that intention. Those who pick fights, or deliberatly intimidate other workers for pleasure are no friends of mine.

wait, uniform? wtf are you talking about, there is no chav uniform, the whole point is that people mock the appearance because its one thats associated with being cheap and nasty, but those are the clothes worn by a sizeable amount of the british working class, cos its popular cheap and casual, i.e. trackies, t shirts, hoodies etc. the point is, people don't know what 'chav' means, theres a difference between a chav and a thug, i dress similar to alot of 'them' and hang around with people who look wear that stuff but i am not violent but i get called a chav, the point is, its a condescending word used against a large amount of youth who wear clothes for comfort (not to mention its fucking cheap, trackies from sports direct 6 quid how can u go wrong)

[Bitter Ashes]

wait, uniform? wtf are you talking about, there is no chav uniform, the whole point is that people mock the appearance because its one thats associated with being cheap and nasty, but those are the clothes worn by a sizeable amount of the british working class, cos its popular cheap and casual, i.e. trackies, t shirts, hoodies etc.

That's far broader than the chav definition I'm familiar with. Quite simply the uniform is sports branded tracksuits and baseball caps, which are NOT the cheapest clothing around. If it was, I might be tempted to wear it myself just to save a few pennies.

I myself wear t-shirts and hoodies. Both are usualy plain, but if they're not then they're cetainly not sports brands. I've been called a lot of things, but never a chav, despite bieng working class, young, poor and wearing cheap clothing.


the point is, people don't know what 'chav' means, theres a difference between a chav and a thug, i dress similar to alot of 'them' and hang around with people who look wear that stuff but i am not violent but i get called a chav, the point is, its a condescending word used against a large amount of youth who wear clothes for comfort (not to mention its fucking cheap, trackies from sports direct 6 quid how can u go wrong)Or you can get a pair of jeans for £3 and a plain t-shirt for £1.50 from Primark, or a charity shop. It's comfy, but doesnt last too long I'll admit. To say that tracksuits are the only option for poor workers is totaly false.

[Pogue]

That's far broader than the chav definition I'm familiar with. Quite simply the uniform is sports branded tracksuits and baseball caps, which are NOT the cheapest clothing around. If it was, I might be tempted to wear it myself just to save a few pennies.

I myself wear t-shirts and hoodies. Both are usualy plain, but if they're not then they're cetainly not sports brands. I've been called a lot of things, but never a chav, despite bieng working class, poor and wearing cheap clothing.



Or you can get a pair of jeans for £3 and a plain t-shirt for £1.50 from Primark, or a charity shop. It's comfy, but doesnt last too long I'll admit. To say that tracksuits are the only option for poor workers is totaly false.

Where did I say it was the only thing to wear?

I said its popular, don't misquote me. I'm not even takling about this 'mythical entity of workers' who wear the same clothes I'm talking about people who wear trackies etc. I don't think you even know what a chav is like most people in this thread who got their definition from the telegraph.

[Bitter Ashes]

Where did I say it was the only thing to wear?

I said its popular, don't misquote me. I'm not even takling about this 'mythical entity of workers' who wear the same clothes I'm talking about people who wear trackies etc. I don't think you even know what a chav is like most people in this thread who got their definition from the telegraph.
It's an observation of the types that have attacked me and my friends when we were younger. It's far too much of a co-incidence that they all wear sports branded tracksuits and baseball caps.

[Pogue]

It's an observation of the types that have attacked me and my friends when we were younger. It's far too much of a co-incidence that they all wear sports branded tracksuits and baseball caps.

i agree, wearing trackies makes you violent, its like something out of the hulk

[Bitter Ashes]

i agree, wearing trackies makes you violent, its like something out of the hulk
lol. Come on. I explained it before. Just to repeat myself though; Aggressive individuals have chosen to wear those specific items of clothing to make them more intimidating.

[ls]

lol. Come on. I explained it before. Just to repeat myself though; Aggressive individuals have chosen to wear those specific items of clothing to make them more intimidating.

Please tell me what's so intrinsically intimidating about a motherfucking tracksuit and cap.

[Bitter Ashes]

Please tell me what's so intrinsically intimidating about a motherfucking tracksuit and cap.
The fact that there's a trend of people bieng disproporiantly attacked by people wearing this. If it wasnt for those thugs who had been doing this then it would have been fine. I'm sure there was a time that a balaclava, or skinhead and a pair of jackboots was at one time not seen to be intimidating either, but after it'd become associated with violence, it becomes intimidating whoever wears it.

[Bitter Ashes]

Please tell me what's so intrinsically intimidating about a motherfucking tracksuit and cap.
The fact that there's a trend of people bieng disproporiantly attacked by people wearing this. If it wasnt for those thugs who had been doing this then it would have been fine. I'm sure there was a time that a balaclava, or skinhead and a pair of jackboots was at one time not seen to be intimidating either, but after it'd become associated with violence, it becomes intimidating whoever wears it.

In fairness, I can see how you're trying to reclaim the identity here, but you've got an uphill struggle ahead of you because the high profile attacks by thugs will always work against you until they find something else to wear.

[ls]

The fact that there's a trend of people bieng disproporiantly attacked by people wearing this. If it wasnt for those thugs who had been doing this then it would have been fine. I'm sure there was a time that a balaclava, or skinhead and a pair of jackboots was at one time not seen to be intimidating either, but after it'd become associated with violence, it becomes intimidating whoever wears it.

That's a fucking idiotic attitude too, having a skinhead haircut makes you dangerous as well I guess, you probably think lots of chavs have it as well so that's another "thuggish trait".

Honestly you talk rubbish in whole dumpyards.


In fairness, I can see how you're trying to reclaim the identity here, but you've got an uphill struggle ahead of you because the high profile attacks by thugs will always work against you until they find something else to wear.

Oh shut up, you have no clue about what you're talking about at all so just keep it shut.

[*Viva La Revolucion*]

I don't think that's what Ranma means, ls.

Clothes are obviously just bits of fabric really, but there's no doubt that fashion has developed so that they are now an expression of people's personalities and in some cases, their opinions. A tracksuit may be a practical thing that is good to wear when you're going for a jog or whatever, but some people wear them because tracksuits are now associated with ''chavs''. People want to present themselves as being 'tough' and to convey their toughness they use clothes. That's why it's so easy for a lot of people to label others as chavs solely on their style - it's because they believe the wearer represents and supports all of the ideas people attach to them (the clothes, I mean).

[Jazzratt]

That's a fucking idiotic attitude too, having a skinhead haircut makes you dangerous as well I guess, you probably think lots of chavs have it as well so that's another "thuggish trait".

Shaved heads aren't "dangerous" per se but they do tend to intimidate people. Hell, a lot of people still associate the look with racist thugs. Same with the chav "uniform". It's all association. It leads, obviously, to false conclusions but that doesn't mean you should automatically heap scorn on people who make the associations.


Oh shut up, you have no clue about what you're talking about at all so just keep it shut.

There is absolutely no call for that.

Ranma42:

It's understandable to associate certain appearences, modes of dress and so on with violence but it's shortsighted, to say the least, to condemn people just because of associations you make with the appearence - especially if it's just clothes. For the most part the people I have met that dress in tracksuits, hoodies and so on have been basically normal people content to do nothing more criminal than ask me to buy them cider but of course I have encountered others intent on punching my lights out or whatever. The point is that when a lot of people in a given area wear a certain type of clothing (as I imagine is the case in most areas known to be "chavvy", certainly is near me) it's quite likely that people wearing those clothes will commit crimes; it also happens that a lot of "chavvy" areas tend to be economic dead-ends where more people are likely to be 'desperate' enough to commit crimes.

Also:


I'm sure there was a time that a balaclava, or skinhead and a pair of jackboots was at one time not seen to be intimidating either, but after it'd become associated with violence, it becomes intimidating whoever wears it.

I've seen hikers up mountains wearing balaclavas and have consistently failed to be intimidated by them. Also, I've recently started shaving my head (I've worn all kinds of boots for ages) and I find the idea of anyone being intimidated by my rake-like physique to be completely laughable. It's not just clothes which make someone intimidating, it's the context and build of the person too.

[pastradamus]

Fuck off and and stop buying into ridiculous daily mail stereotypes as if 20% of the country wets themselves over getting an ASBO.

It seems someone has not "fully evolved" a brain.

No fuck you.

Im a working class person who has had nothing but bad experiences with these so called "chavs".

Your telling someone who has been hospitalised and attacked by chavs (knives, Bottles) for absolutely no reason other than they just felt like doing it to "Fuck off and and stop buying into ridiculous daily mail stereotypes" . . . I dont like these people plain and simple.

Its grand to be all diplomatic about these fuckwits and call them proud working class people and say they're being discriminated against for a "counter culture" when in general reality they contribute NOTHING to society and just make life harder for ordinary working class people.

Again, I've had bad experiences with them and I view them through a darker shade for that, but nothing is going to change my opinion of them.

[pastradamus]

That's a fucking idiotic attitude too, having a skinhead haircut makes you dangerous as well I guess, you probably think lots of chavs have it as well so that's another "thuggish trait".

Honestly you talk rubbish in whole dumpyards.



Oh shut up, you have no clue about what you're talking about at all so just keep it shut.

You spent 90% of that post making insults and the other 10% on your opinion.

i have a shaved head and I can honestly say that while I dont like to intimidate people sometimes people get that vibe off me. I dont understand why but thats just some people I guess so I understand what ranma is saying.

[Pogue]

I think my point stands. I'm not supportive of aggressive youth by no means I just think chav is a predjudice laden word that is form my experience thrown around like all shades of shit by middle class twats who want to talk about anyone with a common accent. The youth who rob and threaten you are scum, but chav is too broad a term which is why I oppose it being used all the time in the context it is.

For example based upon music, clothing (sometimes) and the way I talk some might call me a chav as has happened. This is unfair cos I spend alot of time dealing with twattish youth in my area who are also called chavs who I am nothing like.

Plus Lonsdale is cheap and makes me a boxer so thus hard.

[*Viva La Revolucion*]

I'm not opposed to aggressive youth

:confused:

Apart from that bit, I agree with you. The word chav is insulting because, instead of using it to mean violent thugs, people use it interchangeably with 'working class'. If Princess Eugenie got drunk and beat someone up in the street she would be called many things, but chav is not one of them. What's the difference? Why is it that (assuming her behaviour was identical to so-called chavs) she would never be labelled as one? It's all to do with class.

It leads to a kind of snobbery that is not only accepted, but condoned because it is seen as standing up to 'those violent hoodies.'

[Pogue]

:confused:

Apart from that bit, I agree with you. The word chav is insulting because, instead of using it to mean violent thugs, people use it interchangeably with 'working class'. If Princess Eugenie got drunk and beat someone up in the street she would be called many things, but chav is not one of them. What's the difference? Why is it that (assuming her behaviour was identical to so-called chavs) she would never be labelled as one? It's all to do with class.

It leads to a kind of snobbery that is not only accepted, but condoned because it is seen as standing up to 'those violent hoodies.'

That was meant to read 'I'm not unopposed to aggressive youth by no means' or something to that effect.

[*Viva La Revolucion*]

Ah, sorry for the misunderstanding. I hoped you didn't mean that.

[Bitter Ashes]

That's a fucking idiotic attitude too, having a skinhead haircut makes you dangerous as well I guess, you probably think lots of chavs have it as well so that's another "thuggish trait".

Honestly you talk rubbish in whole dumpyards.



Oh shut up, you have no clue about what you're talking about at all so just keep it shut.
I think most of the stuff I was going to say in response was already covered, but I'd just like to add this too.

I find it facinating how your claims of not wanting to viewed as an aggressive and intimidating individual, involved actualy taking the time to type your post like that. Sorry, but going around saying stuff like that really doesnt do your case, for having a level head, any favours. You usualy lose a lot of tone from text, but it really does come across as if this had been a face to face conversation you might have been yelling this into my face, nose to nose, or having a weapon pointed at me while you say it.

[The Idler]

Apart from that bit, I agree with you. The word chav is insulting because, instead of using it to mean violent thugs, people use it interchangeably with 'working class'. If Princess Eugenie got drunk and beat someone up in the street she would be called many things, but chav is not one of them. What's the difference? Why is it that (assuming her behaviour was identical to so-called chavs) she would never be labelled as one? It's all to do with class.

It leads to a kind of snobbery that is not only accepted, but condoned because it is seen as standing up to 'those violent hoodies.'
Millionaires daughter and Prince's girlfriend Chelsy Davy was accused of being a chav by the Telegraph (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1053175/Chelsy-chav-Prince-Harrys-girlfriend-pictured-wearing-baseball-cap-tracksuit-tasteless-jewellery.html). In fact they even accused Prince Harry of being a chav following his visit to a lap dancing club (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/3624329/Why-Prince-Harry-must-fight-hard-against-his-inner-chav.html).

[ls]

A tracksuit may be a practical thing that is good to wear when you're going for a jog or whatever, but some people wear them because tracksuits are now associated with ''chavs''.

Except most people don't, even people that would label themselves chavs still wouldn't particularly want to wear them to be associated with being a chav.


People want to present themselves as being 'tough' and to convey their toughness they use clothes. That's why it's so easy for a lot of people to label others as chavs solely on their style - it's because they believe the wearer represents and supports all of the ideas people attach to them (the clothes, I mean).

Most people I've ever met wear clothes because they want to cover themselves in something, apart from that they wear them to look cool and not usually tough.


Shaved heads aren't "dangerous" per se but they do tend to intimidate people.

I know and it's fucking annoying.


Hell, a lot of people still associate the look with racist thugs. Same with the chav "uniform". It's all association. It leads, obviously, to false conclusions but that doesn't mean you should automatically heap scorn on people who make the associations.

No not automatically, but people's patronising attitudes is a good reason to.


There is absolutely no call for that.

Probably not, but when someone spouts one-sided ignorance it annoys me.


The point is that when a lot of people in a given area wear a certain type of clothing (as I imagine is the case in most areas known to be "chavvy", certainly is near me) it's quite likely that people wearing those clothes will commit crimes; it also happens that a lot of "chavvy" areas tend to be economic dead-ends where more people are likely to be 'desperate' enough to commit crimes.

?

I've seen many areas where most people walking around wore "chavvy" clothes but weren't dangerous, I really don't agree on what you said.


No fuck you.

Im a working class person who has had nothing but bad experiences with these so called "chavs".

Unfortunate as that is, it doesn't somehow give you moral reason to hate all people who dress in a certain way.


Your telling someone who has been hospitalised and attacked by chavs (knives, Bottles) for absolutely no reason other than they just felt like doing it to "Fuck off and and stop buying into ridiculous daily mail stereotypes" . . . I dont like these people plain and simple.

Well done for hating "these people". People who dress in a certain way, why don't you knive and bottle them back - will it make you feel better>


Its grand to be all diplomatic about these fuckwits and call them proud working class people and say they're being discriminated against for a "counter culture" when in general reality they contribute NOTHING to society and just make life harder for ordinary working class people.

I wonder if your opinions on people dropping out of school and being unemployed are in a similar vein


Again, I've had bad experiences with them and I view them through a darker shade for that, but nothing is going to change my opinion of them.

That kind of attitude is definitely conducive to your wonderful personality!


You spent 90% of that post making insults and the other 10% on your opinion.

no u


i have a shaved head and I can honestly say that while I dont like to intimidate people sometimes people get that vibe off me. I dont understand why but thats just some people I guess so I understand what ranma is saying.

Yeah.. but people shouldn't feel that way, it's not you that's the problem it is other people's perceptions.

Do you think it's ok if people feel you contribute nothing to society and that you're a worthless piece of shit? A lot of people probably do think about the skinhead haircut as being associated with racists, then people associate racists with having been unemployed for however many years.

If I knew someone was thinking that about me I'd probably be extremely pissed off.. and with perfectly good reason too.


I find it facinating how your claims of not wanting to viewed as an aggressive and intimidating individual, involved actualy taking the time to type your post like that. Sorry, but going around saying stuff like that really doesnt do your case, for having a level head, any favours. You usualy lose a lot of tone from text, but it really does come across as if this had been a face to face conversation you might have been yelling this into my face, nose to nose, or having a weapon pointed at me while you say it.

Only because of your glum/crap perception of it. I doubt any others on this thread perceived my post the same way but hey, you view anyone who wears a tracksuit as a dangerous individual and think that it's OK to feel that way, so it's all good I guess.

Tell me, weren't you forced to shave your head for the army?

[Jazzratt]

I know and it's fucking annoying.

That's as may be, the association, though, is still there.




No not automatically, but people's patronising attitudes is a good reason to.

Well yes, there is a difference though between being patronising and feeling threatened because of past associations with a certain look.


?

I've seen many areas where most people walking around wore "chavvy" clothes but weren't dangerous, I really don't agree on what you said.


As you yourself have pointed out that chavs are just ordinary workers, and I agree, but that means that they suffer the worst of capitalism along with the rest of the working class and thus do end up in situations where crime appeals. Obviously it isn't uniformly true that everywhere with a large working class population is going to be a warzone crawling with thugs but I think this is a better explanation of why the "look" is associated with crime than "shell suits magically transform you into scum".

[rednordman]

Incidently, have any of you ever come across a blue-coller vs white-coller boxing tournament? it would be my dream to represent my class with ferocious force and make a mockery of the generally widespread white-coller notion of superiority and 'survival of the fittest' (basically that they are where they are because in truth they are superior to 'chavs' and have the balls to play dog eat dog);)

[Zurdito]

an upper middle class girl defines "chav" for a channel 4 documentary:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch1B8jj67JM

[Stranger Than Paradise]

an upper middle class girl defines "chav" for a channel 4 documentary:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch1B8jj67JM

I watched that show. She was a complete fucking snob whom I wanted to punch throughout.

This just highlights the demonising effect the word has.

[Zurdito]

ha, I was reading The Guardian online and one of their stories today about inequality linked to a story about that show (which I hadn't heard of), and I started watching some videos. a shame it isn't available in full online. When I stumbled across that clip I thought great, it proves exactly what a lot of us were syaing in the thread all along.:(

[Stranger Than Paradise]

ha, I was reading The Guardian online and one of their stories today about inequality linked to a story about that show (which I hadn't heard of), and I started watching some videos. a shame it isn't available in full online.

The show was quite good but had some particularly angering moments from that snob and her family. The working class family were really nice and the girl the snob had to meet was really kind to her.



When I stumbled across that clip I thought great, it proves exactly what a lot of us were syaing in the thread all along.:(

Anyone who doesn't agree has definitely not experienced the word before or heard a snob use it.

[Killfacer]

an upper middle class girl defines "chav" for a channel 4 documentary:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch1B8jj67JM

What a fucking inbread posh freak.

[rednordman]

What a fucking inbread posh freak.She aint the half of it though, I swear now its so socially acceptable to be a snob and look down on others that its basically a term that even a percieved 'chav' can use against someone they dislike to put them down a notch. I can actually see the term becoming so used that it will eventually loose its meaning.

She was looking down the street at people walking by and immidiatly branding them 'chavs' just because they where wearing tracksuit bottoms. For all she knew, that bloke could have been wealthier than she is, just that he didnt want to dress smart just to talk the baby for a push in its tram.

The youth of today:crying:. If you want to see more of how shallow they are getting purposly bread to be, just try watching MTVs 'my super sweet sixteen'. It would probably kill you though.

[The Idler]

Incidently, have any of you ever come across a blue-coller vs white-coller boxing tournament? it would be my dream to represent my class with ferocious force and make a mockery of the generally widespread white-coller notion of superiority and 'survival of the fittest' (basically that they are where they are because in truth they are superior to 'chavs' and have the balls to play dog eat dog);)
Yeah, and the ticket sales profits go to the promoters and the rich get the premium front row seats. The class struggle doesn't just mean some kind of excuse for a ruckus you know. If anything, Boxing is one of the more corrupt capitalist sports.

an upper middle class girl defines "chav" for a channel 4 documentary:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch1B8jj67JM
It doesn't really prove anything. Why let the upper class adults (let alone children) define who constitutes the "lumpenproletariat"? I saw the programme first time round and she seemed misguided more than deliberately demonising.

[Pogue]

nah she is being a total snob i know the sort, they call me a chav too

[rednordman]

Yeah, and the ticket sales profits go to the promoters and the rich get the premium front row seats. The class struggle doesn't just mean some kind of excuse for a ruckus you know. If anything, Boxing is one of the more corrupt capitalist sports.Your correct there but i wasnt exactly being serious..:)

[Pogue]

whats wrong with boxing?

[rednordman]

whats wrong with boxing?Absolutly nothing. Great sport, more fun to train and participate than it is to watch though. Just the whole professionalism is a little bit "ropey". Excuse the very poor pun.

[Zurdito]

It doesn't really prove anything. Why let the upper class adults (let alone children) define who constitutes the "lumpenproletariat"? I saw the programme first time round and she seemed misguided more than deliberately demonising.

One video is not "proof" but what it illustrates is what the word chav, or its equivalents in other societies, mean for millions of people who are called these words by millions of other people, just for being poor.

So if she was "misguided" that makes it even worse, it shows how class hatred is naturalized and is not a case of a few assholes, but that even moderate sectors of the middle class and even much of the working class think it's ok to view the poorest sectors of society as "scum". In fact I think this is the case, in Britain and in other countries.

Why do you want to "reclaim" a word that was never progressive to begin with?

[Bitter Ashes]

One video is not "proof" but what it illustrates is what the word chav, or its equivalents in other societies, mean for millions of people who are called these words by millions of other people, just for being poor.

So if she was "misguided" that makes it even worse, it shows how class hatred is naturalized and is not a case of a few assholes, but that even moderate sectors of the middle class and even much of the working class think it's ok to view the poorest sectors of society as "scum". In fact I think this is the case, in Britain and in other countries.

Why do you want to "reclaim" a word that was never progressive to begin with?
Just because the kid of some bourgeois prick has that definition of chav doesnt mean I share it. Dont forget that these are the same people who will tell you that the word socialism means giving head to Stalin in a totalitarian dictatorship that punishes everyone.

I havent ever been in those circles, so to me, a chav is somebody with thier tracksuit tucked into thier socks who is obsessed with "gangsta" culture and gets randomly violent. If you dont fit into that catagory, you're not a chav, despite what some snotty little bourgeois-spawn says.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

But it is the fact that she uses the term in this way. She was basically branding anyone who was not as well off as her or looked poor as a chav. It is the fact this word was invented to demonise the working class and this is a prime example.

[Zurdito]

Just because the kid of some bourgeois prick has that definition of chav doesnt mean I share it. Dont forget that these are the same people who will tell you that the word socialism means giving head to Stalin in a totalitarian dictatorship that punishes everyone.

I havent ever been in those circles, so to me, a chav is somebody with thier tracksuit tucked into thier socks who is obsessed with "gangsta" culture and gets randomly violent. If you dont fit into that catagory, you're not a chav, despite what some snotty little bourgeois-spawn says.

But let's not compare "socialism" and "chav". Millions of workers through the centuries have been proud to call themselves socialists, and gone hungry, gone to prison or died for the name.

Whereas "chav" is not a word being taken away from anyone, rather it was always a class based put-down. To be honest Darelljohn illustrated it well earlier with the Chris Rock post, where he differentiates "black people" and "n****rs". All it does is reinforce stereotypes and give cover to the white middle classes who under the cover of the stereotype will in practice extend it to everyone of a social class/race.

I think that in every oppressed group, witch-hunting often begins with the bourgeoisie identifying "a few bad apples" and ending up going after the whole group. It's the same with muslims, black people, kids in the slums in S America, etc.

TBH I am not going to try tell you what words you can say with your friends or whatever, but just because you might use it in a certain way doesn't change the fact that the whole "chav hating" phenomenon is mostly completely reactionary and that it should be resisted as basically a demonization of working class youth. I think this is more worthwhile than trying to "reclaim" this word.

[Riza Karabasan]

Pathetic. Nuff said. Another great example of Britain dissappearing up its own ass again:rolleyes:. FFS!when will all this middle england madness going to end.

Well said.

[pastradamus]

Unfortunate as that is, it doesn't somehow give you moral reason to hate all people who dress in a certain way

Yes it does. Because they all act in the same manner. When I come home from the pub if they dont shout cowardly insults at me then they attack me, largely unsuccessfully excepts that one time aftert which they are now afraid of me.



Well done for hating "these people". People who dress in a certain way, why don't you knive and bottle them back - will it make you feel better>
I would never do that as I personally believe in 2 eyes for an eye....but thats just me as has been served.


I wonder if your opinions on people dropping out of school and being unemployed are in a similar vein
Keep in mind that I work in a trade union. We actively work to try to get people in a job. If they refuse to work, they are definitely not accepted. I dont wish that people leave school early, I uttely resent this - however we must work with this as a means of improving society and early school leavers livleyhood.



That kind of attitude is definitely conducive to your wonderful personality!What? Have you been attacked? bottled and stabbed twice? I dont think so, go back to your job in the city and cry middle class boy.




no u
Did you actually read your post?



Yeah.. but people shouldn't feel that way, it's not you that's the problem it is other people's perceptions.

Do you think it's ok if people feel you contribute nothing to society and that you're a worthless piece of shit? A lot of people probably do think about the skinhead haircut as being associated with racists, then people associate racists with having been unemployed for however many years.


If I knew someone was thinking that about me I'd probably be extremely pissed off.. and with perfectly good reason too.

Yes, But the difference is that you are looking though life in a middle class veneer. I contribute to society -yes, 1) I pay taxes.(worthless I know) 2) I work in community projects. 3) Trade Union Activism.

Seriously man, Under your act. Go up to any chav right now tonight and ask them how class concious they feel and how interested in Marx they are and wait for the pain........god the political correctness brigade make me feel sick.

[ls]

Truly :lol: @ middle-class boy.


Yes it does. Because they all act in the same manner.

So when I wear sportswear I magically become dangerous? Thanks for telling me how I am!


When I come home from the pub if they dont shout cowardly insults at me then they attack me, largely unsuccessfully excepts that one time aftert which they are now afraid of me.

Yeah that must include me and Pogue as well, we were there at that pub, cause we wear sportswear we are exactly the same as them.


I would never do that as I personally believe in 2 eyes for an eye....but thats just me as has been served.

That's really good to know.


Keep in mind that I work in a trade union. We actively work to try to get people in a job. If they refuse to work, they are definitely not accepted.

What do you really mean?


I dont wish that people leave school early, I uttely resent this - however we must work with this as a means of improving society and early school leavers livleyhood.

Of course, I was just testing to see if your views on this were as conservative-neoliberal bollocks like your ones on chavs and potentially people without jobs.


What? Have you been attacked?

Yep.


bottled and stabbed twice?

Had someone attempt to mug me when I had my last 50p reserved for my dinner that night, forcing me to fight back, been threatened with a knife by four kids, been attacked and hurt quite bad but then escaped from kids with some kind of grudge against me from school, yeah.


I dont think so, go back to your job in the city and cry middle class boy.

:lol: I'm unemployed and certainly don't come from a middle-class household.


Did you actually read your post?

Did you?


Yes, But the difference is that you are looking though life in a middle class veneer.

:cool:


I contribute to society -yes, 1) I pay taxes.(worthless I know)

That's definitely contributing to helping the working-class.


2) I work in community projects.

That's good.


3) Trade Union Activism.

That's potentially good as well.


Seriously man, Under your act. Go up to any chav right now tonight and ask them how class concious they feel and how interested in Marx they are and wait for the pain

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Go to any working-class person in Ireland, England, or indeed anywhere and ask them abou Marx.... OH WAIT.


........god the political correctness brigade make me feel sick.

:laugh: Oh noez, it's so politically correct to attack people for using the same words as the daily mail and other bourgeoisie piece of shit newspapers.

[SoupIsGoodFood]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5McvSpcUIA