Trashing Teens

[Sprocket Hole]

Trashing Teens
Psychologist Robert Epstein argues in a provocative book, "The Case Against Adolescence," that teens are far more competent than we assume, and most of their problems stem from restrictions placed on them.

By: Hara Estroff Marano ([email protected])

Psychologist Robert Epstein spoke to Psychology Today's Hara Estroff Marano about the legal and emotional constraints on American youth.
HEM: Why do you believe that adolescence is an artificial extension of childhood?
RE: In every mammalian species, immediately upon reaching puberty, animals function as adults, often having offspring. We call our offspring "children" well past puberty. The trend started a hundred years ago and now extends childhood well into the 20s. The age at which Americans reach adulthood is increasing—30 is the new 20—and most Americans now believe a person isn't an adult until age 26.
The whole culture collaborates in artificially extending childhood, primarily through the school system and restrictions on labor. The two systems evolved together in the late 19th-century; the advocates of compulsory-education laws also pushed for child-labor laws, restricting the ways young people could work, in part to protect them from the abuses of the new factories. The juvenile justice system came into being at the same time. All of these systems isolate teens from adults, often in problematic ways.
Our current education system was created in the late 1800s and early 1900s, and was modeled after the new factories of the industrial revolution. Public schools, set up to supply the factories with a skilled labor force, crammed education into a relatively small number of years. We have tried to pack more and more in while extending schooling up to age 24 or 25, for some segments of the population. In general, such an approach still reflects factory thinking—get your education now and get it efficiently, in classrooms in lockstep fashion. Unfortunately, most people learn in those classrooms to hate education for the rest of their lives.
The factory system doesn't work in the modern world, because two years after graduation, whatever you learned is out of date. We need education spread over a lifetime, not jammed into the early years—except for such basics as reading, writing, and perhaps citizenship. Past puberty, education needs to be combined in interesting and creative ways with work. The factory school system no longer makes sense.
What are some likely consequences of extending one's childhood?
Imagine what it would feel like—or think back to what it felt like—when your body and mind are telling you you're an adult while the adults around you keep insisting you're a child. This infantilization makes many young people angry or depressed, with their distress carrying over into their families and contributing to our high divorce rate. It's hard to keep a marriage together when there is constant conflict with teens.
We have completely isolated young people from adults and created a peer culture. We stick them in school and keep them from working in any meaningful way, and if they do something wrong we put them in a pen with other "children." In most nonindustrialized societies, young people are integrated into adult society as soon as they are capable, and there is no sign of teen turmoil. Many cultures do not even have a term for adolescence. But we not only created this stage of life: We declared it inevitable. In 1904, American psychologist G. Stanley Hall said it was programmed by evolution. He was wrong.
How is adolescent behavior shaped by societal strictures?
One effect is the creation of a new segment of society just waiting to consume, especially if given money to spend. There are now massive industries—music, clothing, makeup—that revolve around this artificial segment of society and keep it going, with teens spending upward of $200 billion a year almost entirely on trivia.
Full article (4 pages): http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/index.php?term=pto-4311.html

[Module]

When I repeated my last 2 years of school, at college (TAFE), I noticed immediately that there was a marked difference in the behavior of the students. In high school the teachers were constantly abused, the students were all attention whores all the time and went out of their way to win petty arguments against the teachers. They were treated almost the same way when they were 16 - 18 years old tto when they were 12. In college, and it was one specifically intended as an alternative to regular high school - it started as an experiment of different types of schooling and it was a total success - the students were all treated like adults, as intelligent, responsible individuals who deserved respect and so that was how they acted, and that was how they treated the teachers. In my whole time at that college I don't think I ever once experienced any students playing up, or being rude.
The reasons why I think a lot of teenagers, certainly some friends of mine, act up is because, as the article said, they're treated like kids when mentally they're adults. A lot of teenagers want to 'prove themselves' as adults by participating in 'serious' behaviour, like being aggressive and whatever. I understand the feeling of being patronised by teachers who treat you like little kids when you know that you are just as intelligent as they are. When I started going to college it was so much easier to learn, and it was so much less stressful, even though you had so much more responsibility. As children grow into adults they need responsibility and they need respect. People seem to have absolutely no intellectual respect for teenagers, however, assuming that all their opinions are irrelevant because they're merely transitory. Some teenagers I am sure would definitely not have so much trouble growing up if people were not so hell bent on keeping them as 'children'.

[jake williams]

I'm just going to keep saying it.

One of the most significant features of our society is the oppression of younger people by older people. I talk about and use analogy a lot because it works and it makes a lot of sense - this system of oppression happens to look a lot like patriarchy. The two interact with each other and they interact with capitalism. As the interview hints at, one of the major manifestations of this is in the state school, where young people are trained for capitalist production. What I don't see explained is that they are not just given the technical skills - you learn that there is a hierarchy, a boss who has another boss and so on, and they tell you how your day is structured and what you do and so on. This isn't even to mention the explicit indoctrination into capitalist ideology. What I really think we should be focusing on is the way in which the mode of education - one based on the oppression of young people by old people - plays a major role in the maintenance of the capitalist system, not to mention the harm it causes on its own (or, for that matter, the privilege it reinforces).

While there are minimal but not insignificant natural reasons that younger people, on average, have less ability and understanding than older people - much like the minimal but not insignificant natural differences between men and women - they are very much exacerbated by the system of oppression that has grown up around and because of them. Young people have their access to knowledge and personal development restricted, and they deal with constant oppression (paternalism, trivialization, the restriction of basic freedoms, etc.). Of course this weakens them as people.

[victim77]

I see this article as very interesting. I have always had great discontent for the public education system due to its "one size fits all" mentality but this article really sums up the root of the problem. Things such as voting age and drinking age are also contributing to the problem.

[couch13]

Biologically speaking, we're adults by the time we hit puberty. Thats how it should be. Our bodies suddenly change so that we can reproduce and think at a higher level than before. The fact that we are told that we're adults at 18, but not a full fledged adult until we're 25, means that our society is going contrary to what our bodies tell us to do.

What I'd like to see is a psychological study that links teenage rebellion to our being treated as children, while we feel that we are adults.

[jake williams]

What I'd like to see is a psychological study that links teenage rebellion to our being treated as children, while we feel that we are adults.
I'm becoming increasingly interested in the idea that a significant part of "teenage rebellion" is based on the sexual repression of sexually mature biological adults.

[ZeroNowhere]

I'm becoming increasingly interested in the idea that a significant part of "teenage rebellion" is based on the sexual repression of sexually mature biological adults.
It's quite likely, along with the lack of independence most teenagers have to put up with (in school, generally at home too, etc). There's probably a division of labour between the two causes just mentioned, so to speak.


What I don't see explained is that they are not just given the technical skills - you learn that there is a hierarchy, a boss who has another boss and so on, and they tell you how your day is structured and what you do and so on. This isn't even to mention the explicit indoctrination into capitalist ideology. What I really think we should be focusing on is the way in which the mode of education - one based on the oppression of young people by old people - plays a major role in the maintenance of the capitalist system, not to mention the harm it causes on its own (or, for that matter, the privilege it reinforces).
Yeah, I've always seen the school system as reflecting the social system surrounding it. Hell, even the centralization of education didn't take place majorly until capitalism came about. Of course, as in the workplace, while this does serve as a valuable base to build upon, it also mirrors the workplace in meaning that there is a large amount of hierarchal authority. This kind of thing was important to get workers skilled enough to work the machines, and pump out 'cogs in a machine' for industry. Interestingly enough, teachers quite often seem to have a role somewhat similar to that of the police, and generally, whether or not they have good intentions, have to enforce rules (homework, the school rules, etc), or get kicked out. Of course, they have very little freedom themselves, while students are generally taught unquestioning obedience to them. One of the more amusing parts of my high school life was being given homework on critical thinking. It also served to spread capitalist ideology, of course, as you mention (...High school history. I picked up a worksheet they had started to give on Marx to the 9th Grade when we were in 10th, and it was really, really horrible. Though we were still fed the same bullshit). Also, as Einstein pointed out, it gives students an exaggerated sense of competition so that they may know their place, respect their 'superiors', look down on those below, etc. I believe that the SPGB has written some articles on this kind of thing, though nothing in depth. Unfortunately, most socialist organizations seem to turn a blind eye towards the schooling system, though complaining about people ignoring the lack of democracy in the workplace.

Edit: A bit late, but I just found this article (http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/apr00/eduserve.html) from the SPGB which is actually pretty good on the subject. On the other hand, the SPGB are just awesome in general, so I suppose it was inevitable.

[jake williams]

Unfortunately, most socialist organizations seem to turn a blind eye towards the schooling system, though complaining about people ignoring the lack of democracy in the workplace.
Almost the entire Left ignores the topic (youth lib-ish stuff and schooling), which is both personally frustrating because that's where I spend a lot of my time and solidarity can be hard to find, and politically frustrating because schools are such an important part of the capitalist state. Note that this is an article from Psychology Today, not an anarchist theory journal.

[Glenn Beck]

Ironically a greater level of respect coupled with higher expectations and responsibilities for teenagers would probably go a long way in diminishing the often arrogant and impetuous behaviors exhibited by teens so often taken as evidence of their inherent immaturity.

Some elements of American culture like 'yuppieism' are quite infantilizing for mature adults and tend to give rise to the very same behaviors so often decried in teenagers.

Basically to put it bluntly instead of being put in the real world and expected to step up and interact with people normally, we are in our youth segregated with people our age and treated like idiots, which basically gives us encouragement, excuses, and then sado-masochistic punishment for the inevitable poor behavior that results.

[Chambered Word]

Teenagers' brains are actually pruning until they mature, which is apparently why teenagers tend to do alot of stupid things. I can't remember the full details, look it up if you like. They don't actually become adults until this process stops.

Still, I get very pissed off when adults go 'HURR DURR CHILD KNOWS NOTHING' whenever a teen comes up with a perfectly valid argument that the adult can't refute. That said, however, I know very few teens (I'm 14) who actually know anything about the world besides their neighbourhood, so I would forgive adults for thinking we're all morons.

Anyway, we're not all like that. Some of us are alot more mature than others.

[Revy]

I read an article about how younger people are less likely to be hired for many types of jobs. Adults 18-24 have the highest rate of unemployment among adults, teens have an even higher rate of unemployment.

At the same time, young adults are stigmatized for living with their parent(s), as if they were some kind of loser or just wanted to mooch off of them. No understanding is given to circumstances which may exist, the inability to actually get a job. When elderly people start to live with their child again and are supported by them, there's no judgment, the elderly person is not treated like a loser. but take someone who is in their early 20's, they are treated like a loser.

I'm speaking from experience, by the way. I am 20, unemployed (NOT by choice), and I live with my mother. As I understand it, this stigma is not as strong in some cultures as it is in this one, as 80% of Italians under 30 live with their parents, with the average move-out age being 36. Yet I'm demonized just for being 20.

[Oktyabr]

Full article (4 pages): http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/index.php?term=pto-4311.html

See what happens when you let cappies make the rules? They found a system based on educating people to labor on their machines until every last cent is extracted from the sweat of their work. They learn to be treated as second rate minds so that their lives become meaningless to even themselves. This is why so few people realize their potential, and accept the punishment inflicted on them by the capitalist system, and thus end up as a cog in the capitalist machine.

[Killfacer]

I'm struggling to care about this. It's not even that bad.

[jake williams]

I'm struggling to care about this. It's not even that bad.
I hate to sound like an ass, but it's exactly this sort of sentiment I'm talking about vis-a-vis the Left not caring. Leave aside the actual experiences of teenagers, which I happen to think is something one ought to be concerned about. The treatment of teenagers, in and out of school, is a major part of the functioning of capitalist society. How is that not important?

[Killfacer]

I hate to sound like an ass, but it's exactly this sort of sentiment I'm talking about vis-a-vis the Left not caring. Leave aside the actual experiences of teenagers, which I happen to think is something one ought to be concerned about. The treatment of teenagers, in and out of school, is a major part of the functioning of capitalist society. How is that not important?

Most people i know enjoyed their childhood hugely. It just seems like a bit of a non issue.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Most people i know enjoyed their childhood hugely. It just seems like a bit of a non issue.

I can understand your viewpoint. Because me and most of my friends growing up did not want to accept the responsiblities of adulthood. I wished I could stay a child forever. But then again this could be the result of external forces, like schools, teachers, parents forcing this idea upon us, that we are not grown up yet, that we are still children.

[Dr Mindbender]

in retrospect, i'm glad i wasnt given the full responsibility between 13-17 that i have now.

I would have made even more stupid mistakes and my life would probably be in a bigger mess than it is now. Unless you want to go all objectivist and say ''it differs from person to person''.

[Dr Mindbender]

....Not that im making unwarranted accusations, but do you think it's remotely possible that the person putting this case forward is a pedophile?

If i was a 40 year old predator looking for a rationale to sleep with 13 year olds, this could be quite clever.

[Sprocket Hole]

....Not that im making unwarranted accusations, but do you think it's remotely possible that the person putting this case forward is a pedophile?

If i was a 40 year old predator looking for a rationale to sleep with 13 year olds, this could be quite clever.
:laugh: Wow! I did not look at it that way! I suppose your right !

[Glenn Beck]

in retrospect, i'm glad i wasnt given the full responsibility between 13-17 that i have now.

I would have made even more stupid mistakes and my life would probably be in a bigger mess than it is now. Unless you want to go all objectivist and say ''it differs from person to person''.

There's a difference between giving people responsibilities and treating them like grown ups and just cutting them loose into the wild with no guidance. Similarly there's a massive difference between guidance and sheltering.

As for the whole pedo thing it would be lame to discount arguments about giving youth more autonomy because of the fact that those who want to have sex with children can take advantage of it. Such views have nothing to do with pedophilia and though its sadly the case that pedophiles sometimes cling to them opportunistically that is no reason to just become entirely conservative on the matter and just assume the current ways are best.