Nationalism

[nightazday]

I'm making this topic to argue about nationalism

nationalism is the belief that opposes imperialism (at least the official imperialism) that if you try to enslave or attack one person its an insult to all the people, that the government is to protect and serve the people and not just rule them (at least in theory), that all people can have pride just for being who they are
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in the past it was either your the empire or your the servant of the empire that was until 1783 when the French got back from insuring independence and freedom for other people and realized "why don't we have that"

that and many reasons sparked the French revolution and after it was put down more and more people thought they should do it to. nationalist becomes the original revolutionary left

in WWI the empires destroy themselves and the nationalist succeed all throughout Europe in WWII all the evils of empire are summarized into one event, the holocaust

the few empires left dissolve themselves since then no country in the world declare themselves empires anymore the nationalist win
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the bad part about nationalism is racism, where people tell that the nation can't have another "people" in it

I gave you the overview, what's your opinion?

[alexo]

but do empires still exist. What is an empire? Was the USSR an empire, is the UK an empire? Are the various states created in Africa empires? Are many countries empires? Indeed if the unionist of the North of Ireland were forced into a united Ireland, would that be an empire?

[NewWorld]

You are forgetting that nationalism is not just responsible for some "racism," but is, in fact, the cause of WWI and WWII. Nationalism served Russia up a plate of over 30,000,000 dead men, women, and children during the second world war. Nationalism is a terrible device that has led only to death and destruction; it is one of the last forces on this earth keeping mankind from really achieving a socialist dream: where all men are truly equal. Nationalism is behind the voice that says "I can't be equal to him, he is a (insert nationality here)." I see of no use for it today.

[Cynical Observer]

nationalism was useful to damage imperialism, but has out-lived it's usefulness. now it simply divides the people of the world and promotes a class system based on nationality, it can be used by governments to shape popular opinion through prejudice and vanity, there by creating a mass of patriotic drones. It is our enemy! It is pride where there should be none, u can be proud of ur leaders or proud of an accomplishment of ur nation, but u can not be proud of ur nation unquestioningly. (In the USA at least) it promotes ignorance and a willful denial of facts because they are "unpatriotic"

[Oktyabr]

Nationalism is just like any other human emotion. By nature, all human emotions are ridiculous. The idea that we can form a bond of passion between someone we have barely known is one of them. However, in the right doses, these powerful emotions can drive men and women to do great things. In the wrong doses,these silly emotions get the better of us, and we lose our common sense to the spur of the moment. Wether or not nationalism is foolish is undeterminable, because maybe our opinion of these emotions has already been slanted by them.

[Cynical Observer]

However, in the right doses, these powerful emotions can drive men and women to do great things..
Yes, when the nation is being oppressed by imperialism. but if a fully function nation still holds nationalist sentiments then it is fostering intolerance and is counter-revolutionary as it rallies support to the current government.

[Oktyabr]

Yes, when the nation is being oppressed by imperialism. but if a fully function nation still holds nationalist sentiments then it is fostering intolerance and is counter-revolutionary as it rallies support to the current government.

which is exactly why I said "in the right doses".

I've noticed that every post of mine is followed by someone else picking apart my argument as potentially false.

[Cynical Observer]

sorry i think i may have misinterpreted part of ur post

also it think people tend to pick apart everyone's posts lol:blushing:

[marxistcritic]

Nationalism is the same thing as racism

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Nationalism is the same thing as racism

So the Indians were racist because they no longer wanted to be ruled by the colonial British oppressors?

[Cynical Observer]

So the Indians were racist because they no longer wanted to be ruled by the colonial British oppressors?


i think he means the nationalism u get in countries that aren't colonial territories. where the nationalists believe they have the greatest coun try and discriminate against foreigners, not the constructive kind that is the motive for national liberations

[Oktyabr]

i think he means the nationalism u get in countries that aren't colonial territories. where the nationalists believe they have the greatest coun try and discriminate against foreigners, not the constructive kind that is the motive for national liberations

The ironic part about American nationalism is how people tend to believe Americans are better than everyone else, but America is really just a hodgepodge of countries some of us consider to be inferior.

[und]

You are forgetting that nationalism is not just responsible for some "racism," but is, in fact, the cause of WWI and WWII. Nationalism served Russia up a plate of over 30,000,000 dead men, women, and children during the second world war. Nationalism is a terrible device that has led only to death and destruction; it is one of the last forces on this earth keeping mankind from really achieving a socialist dream: where all men are truly equal. Nationalism is behind the voice that says "I can't be equal to him, he is a (insert nationality here)." I see of no use for it today.
Nationalism wasn't the cause for the two world wars, but merely an excuse. The world wars are wars of power and land.

[Man from Another Place]

Nationalism is but another delusional belief some people cling to.

[StalinFanboy]

Nationalism is a bourgeois idea. Our loyalties should be to our class, which is international. We should be, at the very least, critical of liberation movements that seek to establish another state.

[nightazday]

Nationalism is a bourgeois idea. Our loyalties should be to our class, which is international. We should be, at the very least, critical of liberation movements that seek to establish another state.

the argument of such ideals bring bourgeois is not that very clever. the bourgeois can twist and alter any ideal whatever it is to their tool for herding sheep and brainwashing man. note that the founders of the movement were the third estate of France and not the noble class, the only bourgeois that could of used it was the one in countries that only had one people. Also note that after they token over the world they did not selfishly kept to themselves but rather work on international communication networks (UN, Nato, Internet) which, I admit are a little faulty (heh... a little) but you must admit that they don't even try to block the communication between you and your fellow worker

though I do believe people right now should focus on said "nation" the entire world could be to much of a hassle for humanity (some can't even take care of their nation) and when the time comes to fully unite the world it will be up to us to combine all the best qualities of the decomposing nations into one grand utopia

[StalinFanboy]

the argument of such ideals bring bourgeois is not that very clever. the bourgeois can twist and alter any ideal whatever it is to their tool for herding sheep and brainwashing man. note that the founders of the movement were the third estate of France and not the noble class, the only bourgeois that could of used it was the one in countries that only had one people. Also note that after they token over the world they did not selfishly kept to themselves but rather work on international communication networks (UN, Nato, Internet) which, I admit are a little faulty (heh... a little) but you must admit that they don't even try to block the communication between you and your fellow worker

though I do believe people right now should focus on said "nation" the entire world could be to much of a hassle for humanity (some can't even take care of their nation) and when the time comes to fully unite the world it will be up to us to combine all the best qualities of the decomposing nations into one grand utopia
Nationalism is bourgeois by nature, not because I want to be clever or the bourgeoisie have "twisted" it. The nationalist is loyal to the people as a whole in a specific geo-political location. This serves the interest of the bourgeois.

[Revy]

There should be a world socialist federation. No separate countries. One world united as one nation.
That sounds very Star Trek, but it's going to happen.

What makes a nation? Culture? Language? Ethnicity? Religion? These are no longer relevant to the modern diverse nation.

It is illogical to continue having separate nations.

[ComradeR]

You are forgetting that nationalism is not just responsible for some "racism," but is, in fact, the cause of WWI and WWII. Nationalism served Russia up a plate of over 30,000,000 dead men, women, and children during the second world war. Nationalism is a terrible device that has led only to death and destruction; it is one of the last forces on this earth keeping mankind from really achieving a socialist dream: where all men are truly equal. Nationalism is behind the voice that says "I can't be equal to him, he is a (insert nationality here)." I see of no use for it today.
No Nationalism wasn't the cause of the wars, imperial capitalism was. Nationalism was/is just a tool used by the ruling class.

Nationalism is a bourgeois idea.
Actually no it's not. It's a tool of class rule used by whatever is the ruling class and predates capitalism.

[StalinFanboy]

Actually no it's not. It's a tool of class rule used by whatever is the ruling class and predates capitalism.
I meant it's an idea used by the bourgeoisie to serve their own interests and retain power. It destroys real class consciousness within the working class.

[ZeroNowhere]

So the Indians were racist because they no longer wanted to be ruled by the colonial British oppressors?
Well, technically, they did substitute British oppressors for Indian oppressors, though this was more due to nationalism than racism (not to say that there can't be overlap). The racism at the time was targeted more against Muslims.


nationalism was useful to damage imperialism
Nationalism has done nothing to damage capitalism, and a lot to feed it.

[Velkas]

It seems that the two main tools used by the bourgeois government are religion and nationalism. Both are a plague on free thought and equality, and one can easily lead to the other.

[Code]

I thought nationalism was like patriotism (blind love of ones country)
LOL
Oops

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Well, technically, they did substitute British oppressors for Indian oppressors, though this was more due to nationalism than racism (not to say that there can't be overlap). The racism at the time was targeted more against Muslims.



Yes but I was arguing that they weren't racist as you say.

[Revy]

Imperialism is oppressive, movements to free countries from imperialism can better be called "national liberation" than nationalism...nationalism is such a loaded word. But I think that the proletarian struggle should be the center and the focus.

[Decolonize The Left]

I'm making this topic to argue about nationalism

nationalism is the belief that opposes imperialism (at least the official imperialism) that if you try to enslave or attack one person its an insult to all the people, that the government is to protect and serve the people and not just rule them (at least in theory), that all people can have pride just for being who they are

No, it isn't. Nationalism is "The idea of supporting ones country and culture." Given that one's country is arbitrary boundaries imposed by the state, supporting such boundaries is fundamentally contradictory to the idea of supporting the working class (which spans across countries).

Nationalism is often used to justify imperialism, as all one needs to do is argue that another nation is jeopardizing the well-being of one's country. This is often where patriotism comes into play: "Love of country; devotion to the welfare of one's country; the virtues and actions of a patriot; the passion which inspires one to serve one's country."


the bad part about nationalism is racism, where people tell that the nation can't have another "people" in it

I gave you the overview, what's your opinion?

Nationalism is not necessarily tied to racism, though it can (and often is) in many cases. Nationalism certainly breeds discrimination, but race need not be attached to this discrimination - for the primarily identity which nationalism discriminates against is other nationalities, not necessarily other races (ex: Citizens of the US may discriminate against British citizens, though they be of the same race).

- August

[NewWorld]

No Nationalism wasn't the cause of the wars, imperial capitalism was. Nationalism was/is just a tool used by the ruling class.



Imperialism is caused by nationalism. Countries only conquer other countries because they think they are better. The two most powerful forces in the world are religion and nationalism; no other force has driven more men to uselessly sacrifice their lives.


Nationalism wasn't the cause for the two world wars, but merely an excuse. The world wars are wars of power and land.

B.S. The GOAL was power and land. They fought because they hated each other and thought themselves superior. If nationalism was taken out of the equation there would be no war. EVER. If people identified not with a country, but with humanity itself, the world might just be able to unite.