How many of you have lived in a communist state? [Archive]

Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor

30th April 2009, 19:22

I don't want to emulate the USSR either. Then again, what makes your criticism relevant?

The USSR was bad because you lived in it? Well, democracies are bad for criminals. Does that mean democracies are bad? Society doesn't have to ensure everyone likes it.

Furthermore, why is the USSR's political system the reason you disliked living there? If I don't like the rain in Vancouver, is Canada's political system to blame?

People need to learn arguments and reason these days.

NecroCommie

30th April 2009, 19:23

It is relevant for statist communists (at least some of them). No I have not lived in a communist country. I have lived, and I currently live in a capitalist country, and thats enough for me thank you very much.

Even I find USSR to be far from ideal, so I guess it does not really matter anyway.

danyboy27

30th April 2009, 19:27

First of can i say that i am not here to throw insults but am here to learn.

I was born in the soviet union which was a communist state, i know what it is like to live in a communist regime.

Somehow i do not believe any of you who associate with the left have.

you dont seem to be here to learn but to troll, otherwise you would have put more time creating a less offensive account name.

i doubt you ever lived here, BUT if by some miracle you are not a liar and a troll, and that you really lived in the soviet union, i will probablly never be able to understand the overwhelming pressure you faced back then by this horrible authoritarian regime.

AntiLeft

30th April 2009, 19:38

you dont seem to be here to learn but to troll, otherwise you would have put more time creating a less offensive account name.

i doubt you ever lived here, BUT if by some miracle you are not a liar and a troll, and that you really lived in the soviet union, i will probablly never be able to understand the overwhelming pressure you faced back then by this horrible authoritarian regime.

I'm not here to troll, my username was rather quickly thought up but if i'm honest nothing on the left is for me.

The reason i brought up the USSR was because there seem to be a few who identify themselves as stalinists.

BogdanV

30th April 2009, 19:41

I was born 3 years before the Revolution and I am well aware of the regime that ruled the country and although the majority of the people today mistake real communism with dictatorships, I wasn't fooled, as a fact that I'm presently sustaining the ideas set forth by Marx and Engels.
Also, what makes you think that current "democracies" are better ?
In the case of Eastern Europe, most, if not all the members of the former communist parties of old are now happily ruling us from the parliament and presidential palaces of our nations.
The clowns that rule in Eastern Europe aren't different from those in the West.
Western politicians are more "refined" and "perfected" in the art of doublespeak.

Dr Mindbender

30th April 2009, 19:45

First of can i say that i am not here to throw insults but am here to learn.

Good.

Although you should have picked a more appropriate username, the one you have gives you the appearance of banfodder.

I was born in the soviet union which was a communist state, i know what it is like to live in a communist regime.

I won't be the only one to tell you this, but the USSR didnt represent a 'communist regime'. It was socialist at best, but then theres debate about that because it still incorporated a class system and things like rigid border controls. Hence the name 'union of soviet socialist republics' instead of 'union of soviet communist republics'.

Communism by definition has no form of state or capital. The USSR failed on both these counts.

Somehow i do not believe any of you who associate with the left have.

In the current global climate, many of us have difficulty believing how anyone has faith in capitalism.

danyboy27

30th April 2009, 19:48

I'm not here to troll, my username was rather quickly thought up but if i'm honest nothing on the left is for me.

The reason i brought up the USSR was because there seem to be a few who identify themselves as stalinists.

still, put it the other way, its not beccause a bunch of wacko believed in hitler that all the right wing people are has creazy has the fascist are.

same goes for leftist, its not beccause a fews wacko actually believe stalin and lenin idea where great that ALL leftist are mad like those folks.
the people you seem to have a grundge against are called anti-revisionist, and personally i got hard time to associate them with anything leftist.

mikelepore

30th April 2009, 19:50

Searching for "fallacy of ambiguity", google finds only 229,000 web pages.

Here's an interesting one: a note is a written message, and a note is also a single tone in a piece of music.

(But my personal favorite is still the pen, which is a place for keeping farm animals, and also an instrument used for writing. It's my favorite because -- isn't it funny that the pigs are kept in a writing instrument?)

But when you make it a word like "communism", many people forget the common experience of hearing ambiguities. They just assume that various people who use a certain word must be talking about the same thing. Hey, let me tell you all about that communism of yours....

Dr Mindbender

30th April 2009, 19:51

The reason i brought up the USSR was because there seem to be a few who identify themselves as stalinists.

I know, they're very trying at times.

The rest of us try to ignore them.

Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor

30th April 2009, 20:06

I'm not here to troll, my username was rather quickly thought up but if i'm honest nothing on the left is for me.

The reason i brought up the USSR was because there seem to be a few who identify themselves as stalinists.

The criteria for board membership, based on my understanding, is determined by the administration or, perhaps, the singular owner of the forum. In certain cases, proposals are suggested and adopted, for board decisions, but I believe the ultimate authority rests with a few.

In other words, someone created this site because "they wanted a site that did X." Given the quality of this site, that person may decide to act on the interests of the posters rather than continue with their "posting criteria." However, they may value the criteria more.

I like having a place to discuss revolutionary leftism. I value that more than disregarding Stalinism, but I'd rather have both. If I created a forum based around the idea of discussing chocolate and cookies, and the members of that forum decided they want to eliminate the discussion of chocolate, I would think about the following. Do I still want to discuss chocolate? Do I value it over having certain members continue to post here, assuming they will stop if I disagree? Will the stoppage of them posting necessarily result in me being unable to converse with them in the manner I desire? These are questions the administration asks.

If I started a board with the purpose of talking about chocolate, and the posters decided they want to ban the discussion of specific chocolates, I'd decide what "I want" to do, ultimately.

Many members would prefer Stalinism to be absent from the main discussion areas of this board. However, would these same individuals place Lenin and Trotsky in that category? The dislike of Stalin could arbitrarily be eliminated based on "what we want." People, however, like logical consistency. Why ban Stalin and not Lenin? I think there are plenty of reasons, but I don't really care that much. I only look to see if someone has stated their "ideology" if they say something really stupid. Hey, that was a stupid comment, let's check if their a Stalinist. If they are not, I reveal a contradiction, perhaps, with their ideology. If they are a Stalinist, I criticize the ideology. That's right people. Being upfront about your ideology gives people more effective means to criticize you. :P

Dr Mindbender

30th April 2009, 20:13

Its for asinine strawmen like this thread that the FAQ shouldnt have been removed.

Now we have no remit to send this waffle to the trashcan where it belongs.

Pogue

30th April 2009, 20:15

OP: Your argument has no challenge in it to me because I am an anarchist and I saw the USSR as just another form of class rule.

Dr Mindbender

30th April 2009, 20:16

OP: Your argument has no challenge in it to me because I am an anarchist and I saw the USSR as just another form of class rule.

damn you unmasked him there.

''i wouldve got away with it if it wasnt for those pesky anarchists''

teenagebricks

30th April 2009, 20:23

It doesn't matter how many of us have lived in a communist state, what matters is the scores of people who don't post on RevLeft who have lived in communist states and who still support the idea of communism. Just a few days ago I spoke with somebody who lived in the USSR, he didn't have much of a clue about anything, he didn't know a lot about socialist theory, he didn't know about the horrors of capitalism, but he did state that life was much better back then. Now some of us here don't worship Stalin, or Lenin, or Marx, but that alone serves as proof that not everyone living in the former Soviet Union is anti communist. Judging on your username, you location, and the subject of your first post, I would be willing to guess that you are only here to start trouble, I hope I'm wrong.....comrade.

Schrödinger's Cat

30th April 2009, 20:26

Now some of us here don't worship Stalin, or Lenin, or MarxMost of us don't.

And while I understand that you're speaking metaphorically, if someone were to worship any historical figure, they'd probably be restricted.

Somehow i do not believe any of you who associate with the left have.Your statement is irrelevant, since no major component of the left - especially in North America and Western Europe - want to live under a Soviet Union-esque system. We don't want to live under a government that restricts our speech, reproductive freedoms, drug preferences, literature, consumption of pornography, or free organization of worker-owned enterprises - as the Soviet Union did throughout most of its history.

teenagebricks

30th April 2009, 20:28

Most of us don't.

And while I understand that you're speaking metaphorically, if someone were to worship any historical figure, they'd probably be restricted.
Too true, I probably should have chosen my words with more thought there. Thank you for pointing that out, comrade.

manic expression

30th April 2009, 20:31

How long did you live in the Soviet Union? How old were you when it fell? What were your impressions of life in the USSR? Are you still in Russia/former USSR? If so, how would you compare life in the Soviet Union to life now? Have you been to any other socialist countries? How do you feel about the considerable support for the Communist Party of Russia at present?

By the way, I've met many people who have visited and lived in Cuba. They very much support the society and government in place there, and they share many of my political convictions, and so it's not like none of us have any connections to socialist countries. Further, there's a great chance I would have gone to Cuba already if you didn't have to go break the law to do it. Lastly, I've lived in capitalist countries all my life, and so if you see my support for socialism as invalid, you must by the same token see my criticisms of and opposition to capitalism as fully legitimate.

Sasha

30th April 2009, 20:39

stupid question:

how many of you lived in a communist state?

way too elaborate answer:
no one, to be more exact, no one in the world.
lets go with the wiki defination of comunism: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist)
Communism is a socioeconomic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socioeconomic) structure and political ideology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_ideologies) that promotes the establishment of an egalitarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egalitarianism), classless (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classlessness), stateless society (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stateless_society) based on common ownership (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_ownership) and control of the means of production (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Means_of_production) and property in general.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist#cite_note-0)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist#cite_note-columbia-1)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist#cite_note-encarta-2) Karl Marx (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Marx) posited that communism would be the final stage in human society, which would be achieved through a proletarian revolution. "Pure communism" in the Marxian sense refers to a classless, stateless and oppression-free society where decisions on what to produce and what policies to pursue are made democratically (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_democracy), allowing every member of society to participate in the decision-making process in both the political and economic spheres of life.
so not only until now there has never been a communist state, a "communist state" is even an oxymoron or a contradictions in terms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contradiction_in_terms).

short answer:
read. your. fucking. marx.

Pogue

30th April 2009, 20:50

damn you unmasked him there.

''i wouldve got away with it if it wasnt for those pesky anarchists''

lmao, i kinda noticed that about my post style

Jack

30th April 2009, 20:52

My uncle's father escaped during the Hungarian Revolution, if that counts.

Then of course he became a mobster and burned down houses and shot people for a living....

communard resolution

30th April 2009, 21:18

Somehow i do not believe any of you who associate with the left have.

I was born in a 'communist state' if that's what you want to call the People's Republic of Poland. That regime was criminal, and I would be pleased to push every single member of the former ruling clique off a very high building, as well as all the cops and other class traitors who were helping them in return for privileges. However, I'd like to do the same thing to Putin, Bush, Obama, Blair, Brown, Merkel, Sarkozy, etc - because I'm a communist.

What now?

Bud Struggle

30th April 2009, 23:09

I think you are being a bit hard on the OP. He hasn't had the chance to be taught and understand that Communism isn't just the Soviet Union, or even that that Soviet Union might not have been Communism at all.

Living with the "comon knowledge" of Comminism in the outside world that is presented by the press and the history books and the teachers it's quite a revalation to come here to Revleft and learn what Comunism REALLY is a s opposed to what is commonly accepted as Communism.

Before I came here and learned about real Communism, I certainly would have thought the way the OP does--that's just the way things had been presented to me and I had no reason to question them.

Give the guy a chance and point him in the direction of some real Communist information and maybe he'll have a different opinion of Communism before long.

Welcome to RevLeft, AntiLeft. (It is a pretty bad choice of a name though :crying:)

AntiLeft

30th April 2009, 23:14

Stranger Than Paradise

30th April 2009, 23:19

There has not been a true communist society as of now. So none of us have lived in one.

Bud Struggle

30th April 2009, 23:24

No, this website comprises a lot of different viewoints, to question every one of them would be impossible. I chose to question those who call themselves stalinist, yet you say i'm ignorant.

I know more about communism than most of the people on here because i was one for over 40 years.

Calm down. I'm not saying you are ignorant--I'm just saying that the Soviet Union is not recognized around here (RevLeft) as a Communist state. It's more of a degenerate worker's state. Not many people around here really think it was very good except a couple of kids and some old KGB hardliners

I personally have been to the Soviet Union on a number of occasions--and it was not a very plesent place. It was to an extent one HUGE slum. There was nothing to eat--literally and what little food there was could only be gotten with long waits on line. Everyone detested and feared and evaded the government.

The Soviet Union died as it lived--with a wimper not a bang.

(And oh, pay no attention to my avatar and quotes and all of that. I'm actually a factory owning Capitalist.)

communard resolution

30th April 2009, 23:25

I know more about communism than most of the people on here because i was one for over 40 years.

Wow. In terms of longetivity you sure beat all of us. So what events or experiences made you disassociate yourself from communism after 40+ years?

Jazzratt

30th April 2009, 23:25

I know more about communism than most of the people on here because i was one for over 40 years.

What does this mean?

Also, what is the point of your question? Unless you're one of the (increasingly rare) people with direct experience of the Soviet regime under Stalin you're just not going to get any kind of response in favour of whatever Soviet regime you remember. That and any, and all, of your criticisms based on personal experience can and will be discounted as merely anecdotal. So, again, why are you bothering with this line of attack? Wouldn't it be more fruitful to ask or attack something we haven't covered in thread after thread after fucking thread?

communard resolution

30th April 2009, 23:31

(And oh, pay no attention to my avatar and quotes and all of that. I'm actually a factory owning Capitalist.)

:laugh: This must sound so convincing to someone who visits this forum for the first time!

Bud Struggle

30th April 2009, 23:32

What does this mean?

Also, what is the point of your question? Unless you're one of the (increasingly rare) people with direct experience of the Soviet regime under Stalin you're just not going to get any kind of response in favour of whatever Soviet regime you remember. That and any, and all, of your criticisms based on personal experience can and will be discounted as merely anecdotal. Well, he said he lived under Communism for 40 years--I think that would give him some street cred on what the place was actually like.

So, again, why are you bothering with this line of attack? Wouldn't it be more fruitful to ask or attack something we haven't covered in thread after thread after fucking thread?That is good advice.

GracchusBabeuf

30th April 2009, 23:34

I know more about communism than most of the people on here because i was one for over 40 years.Are you one of those ex-communist neo-cons?

Are you old enough to have lived in the times of Stalin?

Bud Struggle

30th April 2009, 23:35

:laugh: This must sound so convincing to someone who visits this forum for the first time!

Well my my screen persona is a bit guilded with the baubles of Communist world domination. :D

AntiLeft

30th April 2009, 23:36

Wow. In terms of longetivity you sure beat all of us. So what events or experiences made you disassociate yourself from communism after 40+ years?

I am proud of my country, those in power were not even russian. Extreme levels of immigration was killikng traditional russian culture.

My parents and six of my children were murdered, i realised human nature is beautiful and shouldn't be suppressed. I was imprisoned for 8 years.

AntiLeft

30th April 2009, 23:41

Are you one of those ex-communist neo-cons?

Are you old enough to have lived in the times of Stalin?

I am not a neo con i'm a nationalist.

I did live under stalin i once stood within 10 feet of him. I was born in 1939.

communard resolution

30th April 2009, 23:41

i realised human nature is beautiful Your racist sentiments aren't exactly proof of that... however, we don't believe in human nature.

I was imprisoned for 8 yearsAnd now you'll be banned from here too before you can say Hail Russia. Oh, those goddamn commies...

Moderator, please send him back to prison!

AntiLeft

30th April 2009, 23:45

Racist sentiments? i am far from racist friend, i am however not anti racist.

communard resolution

30th April 2009, 23:49

Racist sentiments? i am far from racist friend, i am however not anti racist.

What is this supposed to mean?

Sean

30th April 2009, 23:49

Racist sentiments? i am far from racist friend, i am however not anti racist.
Clarify this position quickly.

Sean

30th April 2009, 23:55

Actually screw clarification, I'm sick of pussyfooting around scum for fear of looking like some kind of a censor. Ready the bancannon!

30th April 2009, 23:56

communard resolution

1st May 2009, 00:01

My parents and six of my children were murdered,

We don't know who you are and cannot be sure you're telling the truth. However, I want to give you something on the way just before you go: please check the current Russian hate crime statistics. Defenseless women, men, and children are murdered in cold blood in your country every week. This is happening because of Russian nationalism. And it's people like you who support the scumbags who do this. Reconsider your politics, it's never too late.

AntiLeft

1st May 2009, 00:15

I'm afraid some of these young patriots are slightly stupid and attacking non russians is unjustified and wrong, however there core beliefs are sound.

I can't understand how you do not love your country and your people. The country's wellbeing is of more importance than our own. Our ancestors fought and died so that we had a place where we could be russians free from outside influence, they died so we could live, they died for russia for without russia we are nothing, better to die as something than live as nothing. For the place we call home, this is our home, our soil, our blood, no one can take that away from us.

Hate crime statistics are irrelevant, attacks on russians for being russian is a crime of hate but is not a hate crime.

Bud Struggle

1st May 2009, 00:19

I can't understand how you do not love your country and your people. The country's wellbeing is of more importance than our own. Our ancestors fought and died so that we had a place where we could be russians free from outside influence, they died so we could live, they died for russia for without russia we are nothing, better to die as something than live as nothing. For the place we call home, this is our home, our soil, our blood, no one can take that away from us.

Nationalistic--not racist. Besides, I think his English is someone imperfect.

I have been one for like 2 years...And hell i know that communist state is an oxymoron, and communism was never established so far anywhere:lol: Wanna rethink of that?:rolleyes: The point is that while you and other RevLefters don't consider a citizen of the Soviet Union a Communist it's pretty clear that a citizen fo the former Soviet Union considers himself to have been a Communist. I'm sure the Soviets TOLD him he was a Communist.

It's pretty obvious that the people of the SU thought of themselves as Communists.

Jazzratt

1st May 2009, 00:19

Hate crime statistics are irrelevant, attacks on russians for being russian is a crime of hate but is not a hate crime.

Attacks on Russians for being Russian are statistically irrelevent in Russia. The amount of actual violence commited against Russians for where they were born is vanishingly small compared to attacks on immigirants for the same reason. The same shit is all over the world and it's disgusting.

AntiLeft

1st May 2009, 00:25

Attacks on Russians for being Russian are statistically irrelevent in Russia. The amount of actual violence commited against Russians for where they were born is vanishingly small compared to attacks on immigirants for the same reason. The same shit is all over the world and it's disgusting.

I think it wise you re read your statistics.

AntiLeft

1st May 2009, 00:27

't consider a citizen of the Soviet Union a Communist it's pretty clear that a citizen fo the former Soviet Union considers himself to have been a Communist. I'm sure the Soviets TOLD him he was a Communist.

It's pretty obvious that the people of the SU thought of themselves as Communists.[/QUOTE]

I was a communist, i was a party member, i served russia as a political commisar.

I'll refrase that i served the party not russia.

communard resolution

1st May 2009, 00:31

Nationalistic--not racist.

TomK, he speaks of "our blood and soil' and says that the "core beliefs" of Russian racists who go out and murder people are "sound". There's is no great mystery here other than why he's still permitted to post.

communard resolution

1st May 2009, 00:32

I was a communist, i was a party member, i served russia as a political commisar.

People like you make me think that communists should bother with identity politics after all. See what happens if they don't.

But to be honest, I think you're a liar. Goodnight.

Bud Struggle

1st May 2009, 00:33

TomK, he speaks of "our blood and soil' and says that the "core beliefs" of Russian racists who go out and murder people are "sound". There's is no great mystery here other than why he's still permitted to post.

Yea, I guess those are catch phrases. I'm not up much on my Fascism.

AntiLeft

1st May 2009, 00:34

TomK, he speaks of "our blood and soil' and says that the "core beliefs" of Russian racists who go out and murder people are "sound". There's is no great mystery here other than why he's still permitted to post.

I still fail to see how i have said anything racist, what you are doing now is what was done in the USSR.

Decolonize The Left

1st May 2009, 00:41

Bud Struggle

1st May 2009, 00:45

"Your country" is a flag and lines drawn in the sand. It is a word, an idea, and a form of separating individual human beings from one another according to their geographic location of birth.

It is pathetic.

- August

It may be true but talk like that isn't going to sell many tickets to your Revolution.

You guys get really "hard line" when someone you're not sure of comes a-knocking. :rolleyes:

Decolonize The Left

1st May 2009, 00:47

It may be true but talk like that isn't going to sell many tickets to your Revolution.

Do you see me on the corner with a megaphone and a roll of purple paper pieces entitled "Admit Now"?

- August

Bud Struggle

1st May 2009, 00:59

Do you see me on the corner with a megaphone and a roll of purple paper pieces entitled "Admit Now"?

- August

:D

No, but you can see why Fascists get so many believers in their otherwise rather idiotic philosophy. I was over visiting at Stormfront and it's an amazing place--it's 50 times the size of RevLeft full of people spouting Jewish hatred and Black hatred and who's a white--the most laughable stuff, but all VERY serious and with a healthy smattering of rather intelligent people who should know better.

And it's all about that blood and those lines on a map. Somehow blood and soil have a hold on people's imagenation in a startling way. It's quite upseting.

Decolonize The Left

1st May 2009, 01:06

:D

No, but you can see why Fascists get so many believers in their otherwise rather idiotic philosophy. I was over visiting at Stormfront and it's an amazing place--it's 50 times the size of RevLeft full of people spouting Jewish hatred and Black hatred and who's a white--the most laughable stuff, but all VERY serious and with a healthy smattering of rather intelligent people who should know better.

And it's all about that blood and those lines on a map. Somehow blood and soil have a hold on people's imagenation in a startling way. It's quite upseting.

No Tom - it's social conditioning and individual upbringing which causes these horrendous attitudes. There's nothing in the blood, or the soil, which makes people racists and bigots. It's what they've been taught, and what they haven't been taught.

So yes, my earlier statement (while true) was harsh - but sometimes it takes a forceful statement to penetrate a mind clouded with bigotry.

- August

Bud Struggle

1st May 2009, 03:21

No Tom - it's social conditioning and individual upbringing which causes these horrendous attitudes. There's nothing in the blood, or the soil, which makes people racists and bigots. It's what they've been taught, and what they haven't been taught.

So yes, my earlier statement (while true) was harsh - but sometimes it takes a forceful statement to penetrate a mind clouded with bigotry.

- August

I agree there's nothing in the actual blood or soil--my point (a bit oblique) was the same as yours--it is social conditioning. But it runs deep. And it clouds minds. And it is taught from generation to generation. And the Fascists have tapped into it really well. I don't think (unlike Nero) that AntiLeft is a Fascist I just think that sort of ultra nationalist speech is rampant in Russia right now and people pick up on it.

Jack

1st May 2009, 03:59

TheCultofAbeLincoln

1st May 2009, 05:41

Anyone who thinks that AntiLeft is a fascist for claiming that Russians should be proud of their nation and ready to defend it because of a belief that it'll be wiped out if they don't should look up some Soviet WWII propaganda.

Oh wait, make that The Great Patriotic War :D Seriously, all the themes he lays out here were covered 65 years ago, no need to make it look exclusively fascist.

I was a communist, i was a party member, i served russia as a political commisar.

I'll refrase that i served the party not russia. Please tell, was there a real difference between serving the Party as opposed to serving the interests of the Russian political elite? (post-stalin, obviously)

How would you describe the relationship between Russia and the states which were also in the USSR? Would one be correct in saying that it was a fair relationship which the states outside Russia freely joined and in which member states were given the freedom to make decisions regarding themselves? Or were the states which made up the 'rest' of the USSR more or less vassals?

In other words, was there a large amount of political power in Berlin, or Kiev, or Warsaw, or Prague etc etc, or was it all just dictated from Moscow?

Welcome to RevLeft, by the way :)

AntiLeft

1st May 2009, 11:02

AntiLeft, what makes Russia better than America, Spain, South Africa, China, Australia, Mongolia, Brazil, France, Yemen, or any other country?

If you're born 20 miles across the border from Manchuria, are you somehow superior than someone born 20 miles away on the other side of the border?

Or 20 kilometers, here in the US we're behind the times.

I don't think we are better, however russia has different culture, values etc we do not share the same culture as america, i have more in common with a russian than i do with an american so naturally i would rather be with a russian.

Like you are on revleft because you have more in common with those here than you would somewhere else.

Invincible Summer

1st May 2009, 11:02

My grandmother's family was harangued by Mao's cronies when he was rising to power (they were land owners) and her and my grandfather left China before the Great Leap Forward and all that.

To this day, my grandmother is paranoid about talking about things in public because she thinks people are listening in to report her to the Komissar or something...

NecroCommie

1st May 2009, 11:49

I don't think we are better, however russia has different culture, values etc we do not share the same culture as america, i have more in common with a russian than i do with an american so naturally i would rather be with a russian.

Like you are on revleft because you have more in common with those here than you would somewhere else.

So, if Russians aren't superior, why bother prioritizing Russian culture over the culture of foreigners?

Bud Struggle

1st May 2009, 13:02

So, if Russians aren't superior, why bother prioritizing Russian culture over the culture of foreigners?

You are missing Abe's excellent point that the seeds of Russian nationalism and even Fascism were planted in Soviet nationalism during the Great Patriotic War (WWII). It's how people were raised under the "Communistic" regime of the Soviet Union--and this was in large part the the really valient effort of the Russian's fight against the Nazis. I remember when I was there in the 80s--the television every day was full of some important ministers laying wreaths on some battle ground or some tomb from the war. In part it was a real gesture of sorrow for the million and millions of people that died during the war--and in part it was a way for the Soviets to hold their country ogether--to continue their "us against them" way of thinking.

If you put things in a historical context you can get a better understanding of exactly why things are happening the way they are.

AntiLeft is a product of his time and of a particular Communist and Russian culture.

DesertShark

1st May 2009, 15:30

I agree with the early post by Skipper that no one has lived in a communist state and that its a contradiction of terms.

I've never lived on a commune either, but I have lived in a community where people work together, feed each other, take care of each other, and share what they have - no money exchange. Granted, if you want to share more then you labor or skills, you need money to bring outside things in and most of the people end up going broke but we keep doing it anyway. We all just head back to society work a bunch and then get back together. And by community I'm talking at least a couple hundred people, sometimes it gets into the thousands.

trivas7

1st May 2009, 15:43

I've never lived on a commune either, but I have lived in a community where people work together, feed each other, take care of each other, and share what they have - no money exchange. Granted, if you want to share more then you labor or skills, you need money to bring outside things in and most of the people end up going broke but we keep doing it anyway. We all just head back to society work a bunch and then get back together. And by community I'm talking at least a couple hundred people, sometimes it gets into the thousands.
This seems to be the rock on which all alternative groups founder: they can't exist as islands in a sea of a dominant outside community. I assume that this is the rational of the theory of permanent revolution.

TheCultofAbeLincoln

1st May 2009, 19:23

Oh, and as for family ties to communist states, some of my ancestors were germans who had emigrated to Bessarabia and left when the bolshies were fighting it out with the whities and everyone was starving to death (USSR Starvation, Round I :lol:...:()

Not a bad move by any stretch, and I'll always be grateful for their sacrifices to make it to The Promised Land before I came along.

But don't get me wrong I'm not like your stereotypical Cuban exile or anything like that regarding the USSR or communism in general.

JimmyJazz

3rd May 2009, 02:47

i doubt you ever lived here

This. Sorry, buddy, but on the internet it is just too easy to make things up. If I met you in real life it would be different.

I have an acquaintance who grew up in the Soviet Union and lived there through the break-up. Now he lives in New York and is a moderately successful day trader. When asked whether Communism or capitalism is the better system (not by me, by someone else) he staunchly refuses to give an answer, saying "there are good and bad to both" and proceeding to list some examples of good and bad in both.

So even someone who grew up in a country that had to contend with civil war, imperialist invasions one after another, and a long, resource-draining cold war while it tried to build socialism, still managed to hobble together a system which was sufficiently good that a man who has experienced both can't make up his mind which he prefers.

Bud Struggle

3rd May 2009, 12:45

So even someone who grew up in a country that had to contend with civil war, imperialist invasions one after another, and a long, resource-draining cold war while it tried to build socialism, still managed to hobble together a system which was sufficiently good that a man who has experienced both can't make up his mind which he prefers.

Your right there are two sides to the story. As they say about Cuba:

What were the three greatest success of Socialism in Cuba?
1. Nationalized healthcare
2. Uniform excellent public schools
3. Escellent care for the elderly

What where its three greatest failures?
1. Breakfast
2. Lunch
3. Dinner.

It's a joke, but not a joke. Something has to give somewhere even in the best of systems.

Jack

3rd May 2009, 20:50

I don't think we are better, however russia has different culture, values etc we do not share the same culture as america, i have more in common with a russian than i do with an american so naturally i would rather be with a russian.

Like you are on revleft because you have more in common with those here than you would somewhere else.

But do you think your culture is superior?

I think that you will find that in any other industrialized country, you have more in common with your class than anything else.

MilitantAnarchist

3rd May 2009, 21:00

He's making a valid point. Who here has lived in a communist state?
And if you have to refer to wikipedia, then you aint to be listened to.
Communism how it sounds is fucking great, but you can see in practice, everyone suffers (i shall wait for the hate mail and insults, but so fucking what?)
Capitalism doesnt work either, and is arguably worse! Ok is definatly worse, because the class structure is there and meens more are alrite, were the ones worse off are kept down. At least in a communist state, the fuckers who stick their nose in the air in a capitalist state would be in the waiting line for bread the same as me... Only the leaders profit in communism, which is also wrong....
I think neither are the answer. and before you ask, the only reason im here is because we have more in common then i do with the nazi bastards on stormfront, atleast here you get a itellegent debate.....
Communism dont work, Capitalism dont work....
Anarchy is the answer.
In my humble worthless oppinion :tt2:

communard resolution

3rd May 2009, 21:09

He's making a valid point.

The fact that AntiLeft's statements on immigrants and Russian nationalism (as well as his referring to Russian fash as "young patriots") are tolerated on this site - even in OI - is greatly disturbing to me.

khad

3rd May 2009, 21:26

He's making a valid point. Who here has lived in a communist state?
No he isn't. Most of what people will say about themselves online is horseshit anyway, and I bet there are plenty who won't be willing to admit personal information to a bunch of random online peeps.

The fool is only crafting a rhetorical bludgeon, and a crude one at that.

Jack

4th May 2009, 01:15

manic expression

4th May 2009, 01:26

What where its three greatest failures?
1. Breakfast
2. Lunch
3. Dinner.

It's a joke, but not a joke. Something has to give somewhere even in the best of systems.

Perhaps I'm taking you too literally, but I'd be interested to see you substantiate that half-joke with stats. I've never seen a single shred of evidence to suggest Cubans suffer for want of food. There might have been such instances during the Special Period, but the island was literally under siege at that point, and I'm almost positive that no one starved (had those conditions been forced upon a capitalist country, people would have been dying in the streets); those days are long over, however.

And if you're taking a swipe at Cuban cuisine, I suggest you think again, Cuban sandwiches are the #1 reason I regret the fact that I don't eat pork anymore (health-related decision).

Beyond that, I understand the point you're making, even if I don't completely agree with it.

Pogue

4th May 2009, 01:47

not only have i lived in a commnist state i have also

been a married bachelor

been red all over and blue all over

met a non-catholic pope

impressive eh?

Jack

4th May 2009, 03:14

Perhaps I'm taking you too literally, but I'd be interested to see you substantiate that half-joke with stats. I've never seen a single shred of evidence to suggest Cubans suffer for want of food. There might have been such instances during the Special Period, but the island was literally under siege at that point, and I'm almost positive that no one starved (had those conditions been forced upon a capitalist country, people would have been dying in the streets); those days are long over, however.

And if you're taking a swipe at Cuban cuisine, I suggest you think again, Cuban sandwiches are the #1 reason I regret the fact that I don't eat pork anymore (health-related decision).

Beyond that, I understand the point you're making, even if I don't completely agree with it.

Sure they may only make $20-$30 a month, and live with few luxuries.... but the pork is fucking delicious.

RGacky3

4th May 2009, 07:44

Sure they may only make $20-$30 a month, and live with few luxuries.... but the pork is fucking delicious.

I'm not saying Cuba is a model of socialism, or even close to the socialism I want, but to be fair. Have you been to anyother place in Latin America?

Nakidana

4th May 2009, 08:30

I am proud of my country, those in power were not even russian. Extreme levels of immigration was killikng traditional russian culture.

Oh shit, it's a commie turned racist on his old days. :thumbdown:

Listen, I'm sorry about the current state of Russia and all that, but don't go blaming the fall on immigrants. If immigration is so bad then Canada would be a shithole.

My parents and six of my children were murdered

Where, how and why?

I was imprisoned for 8 years.

Where, how and why?

I did live under stalin i once stood within 10 feet of him.

Where and why?

I was born in 1939.

Congratz on finding RevLeft at 70.

khad

4th May 2009, 09:17

Oh shit, it's a commie turned racist on his old days. :thumbdown:
He was probably always a racist. Those who criticize the Soviet Union often have no idea of the kind of scum that infested that society. American boogeymen are drunk rednecks. In Russia, they have cossacks who have dusted off their grandparents' Tsarist uniforms and their copies of Mein Kampf and are now running vigilante patrols against Jews and Muslims.

Pogue

4th May 2009, 10:17

Nakidana

4th May 2009, 15:00

He was probably always a racist. Those who criticize the Soviet Union often have no idea of the kind of scum that infested that society. American boogeymen are drunk rednecks. In Russia, they have cossacks who have dusted off their grandparents' Tsarist uniforms and their copies of Mein Kampf and are now running vigilante patrols against Jews and Muslims.

Yeah, some time ago I talked to a guy from Sudan who had studied medicine in Russia (after the collapse). He was smiling and chuckling a bit as he told stories of being attacked by racists while out shopping alone. Another time he had tried to contact the police but they didn't bother to do anything.

They always went out in groups to avoid attacks.

Comrade Marxist Bro

4th May 2009, 18:17

I lived in the USSR during the last years of Perestroika. The economy emploded thanks to the Gorbachev-Yeltsin reforms, and my folks came to the more advantaged States in 1994, way after the 1991 events (as did most of the former Soviets in this country).

The male life expectancy in the former RSFSR dropped from the mid-60s in 1989 to 59 in 2000, and the economic crisis that hit is considered statistically worse than the Great Depression of the 1930s.

Now, I'm not a fan of Stalin's crimes or of any other systematic pseudo-Marxist abuses of human rights.

But thanks. Thanks a lot, capitalism.

Dejavu

4th May 2009, 18:38

I lived in the former Yugoslavia for a while.

Forward Union

4th May 2009, 22:41

I'm not here to troll, my username was rather quickly thought up but if i'm honest nothing on the left is for me.

8 hour working day? Weekends? Holidays? Minimum wage? Sick pay? You don't like any of these things?

Bud Struggle

4th May 2009, 22:52

8 hour working day? Weekends? Holidays? Minimum wage? Sick pay? You don't like any of these things?

You assume too much. All that makes for a good healthy invigorated worker. Do you think that the Capitalist wants anything less than that?

Work twice as hard when you get an occasional week off?

Who is giving what to whom?

RGacky3

5th May 2009, 07:48

You assume too much. All that makes for a good healthy invigorated worker. Do you think that the Capitalist wants anything less than that?

Work twice as hard when you get an occasional week off?

Who is giving what to whom?

Some might, but the majority had to fight very long rough battles to get those. Historically speaking, labor had to battle for all of their rights, Capitalists never gave them up willingly.

Bud Struggle

5th May 2009, 12:23

Some might, but the majority had to fight very long rough battles to get those. Historically speaking, labor had to battle for all of their rights, Capitalists never gave them up willingly.

I know--but it turns out that labor was right and that management was wrong in the best way to produce better workers.

Imagine that! ;)

RGacky3

5th May 2009, 12:37

I know--but it turns out that labor was right and that management was wrong in the best way to produce better workers.

Imagine that! http://www.revleft.com/vb/many-you-have-t107804/revleft/smilies/wink.gif

Well most of the world does'nt agree with you. Also, a dictator is a dictator, even if he's somewhate benevolent (assuming he is).

вор в законе

5th May 2009, 19:28

Forward Union

5th May 2009, 22:14

You assume too much. All that makes for a good healthy invigorated worker. Do you think that the Capitalist wants anything less than that?

Humans are perfectly capable of working 14 hours a day. If the worker did not thretain, in an organised sense, the capitalist would be quite happy with them working to death. History is quite clear on this.

The Unions abolished child labour, unfair pay, inhuman hours. And actually where possible, capitalists still get away with this stuff today. These changes were not decided at a business meeting where those oh so metropolitan, forward thinking bosses decided on a new 'scheme' to invigorate their workforce by introducing an 8 hour day. Such policy was passed with a bitter taste in their mouth. People are selfish, and will not give up power that easily.

Who is giving what to whom?

It's not an act of charity, its a concession made by capitalists in order to prevent complete loss of control. They wouldn't have made these concessions unless they had reason to.

Bud Struggle

5th May 2009, 22:30

Humans are perfectly capable of working 14 hours a day. If the worker did not thretain, in an organised sense, the capitalist would be quite happy with them working to death. History is quite clear on this. Maybe so about history, but a good work time is just about 8 hours--thet's as long as as you can work someone to get a high degree of competance and efficiency. Anything longer people begin to drift mentally and tire physically. In today's modern work enviornment you need to peem workers intellectually motivated--and you can't do that effectively working them more than 40-48 hours a week. A second shift is always preferable to overtime.

The Unions abolished child labour, unfair pay, inhuman hours. And actually where possible, capitalists still get away with this stuff today. These changes were not decided at a business meeting where those oh so metropolitan, forward thinking bosses decided on a new 'scheme' to invigorate their workforce by introducing an 8 hour day. Such policy was passed with a bitter taste in their mouth. People are selfish, and will not give up power that easily. Oh, I grant you all of that--but the thing is--the workers were the one's that were right, not the management. The 8 hour day worked out well for everyone. The problem though is that for a lot of workers the 40 hour week doesn't pay a "living wage." so they get that second job somewhere to make ends meet--and I find that a problem.

It's not an act of charity, its a concession made by capitalists in order to prevent complete loss of control. They wouldn't have made these concessions unless they had reason to. I agree there, too but it worked out well for business in the end.

nightazday

6th May 2009, 02:24

USSR is not a communist state that's pretty much what they say

Forward Union

6th May 2009, 05:29

Maybe so about history, but a good work time is just about 8 hours--thet's as long as as you can work someone to get a high degree of competance and efficiency. Anything longer people begin to drift mentally and tire physically. In today's modern work enviornment you need to peem workers intellectually motivated--and you can't do that effectively working them more than 40-48 hours a week. A second shift is always preferable to overtime.

Yes but you wouldn't have said that 100 years ago. Infact you would probably be telling me the same about a 14 hour day, It leaves enough time to eat and sleep at least. I actually think a four hour day would be better, and is perfectly possible. But Unions are not strong enough to achieve somethin like that.

Oh, I grant you all of that--but the thing is--the workers were the one's that were right, not the management.

Good.

I agree there, too but it worked out well for business in the end.

It work well in that it probably prevented the working class from revolting. A tree must bend in the wind in order not to snap after all.

Describer

6th May 2009, 07:40

I was born in USSR in 1983 so I lived there as much as first 7 years of my life :)

RGacky3

6th May 2009, 07:50

Maybe so about history, but a good work time is just about 8 hours--thet's as long as as you can work someone to get a high degree of competance and efficiency. Anything longer people begin to drift mentally and tire physically. In today's modern work enviornment you need to peem workers intellectually motivated--and you can't do that effectively working them more than 40-48 hours a week. A second shift is always preferable to overtime.

What your talking about is worker efficiency, from a Capitalists perspective, it does'nt change anything when it comes to workeres rights. Some Capitalists treat their workers nice, most don't, the point is, it should'nt be up to the Capitalist.

Oh, I grant you all of that--but the thing is--the workers were the one's that were right, not the management. The 8 hour day worked out well for everyone. The problem though is that for a lot of workers the 40 hour week doesn't pay a "living wage." so they get that second job somewhere to make ends meet--and I find that a problem.

Right for what? This is'nt a joint project, the worker and the Capitalists have 2 different opposing goals, they are not "equals", not even close. Also your saying it works out well is your opinion and its based on efficiency. Your missing the point of unions, its to shift the power to the workers.

I agree there, too but it worked out well for business in the end.

For some, others went abroad, to where they did'nt have workers rights. Infact a lot did.

Brother No. 1

8th May 2009, 03:53

AntiLeft

Some name....being Anti-leftist on a leftist site...."Smart idea.":rolleyes:

I was born in the soviet union which was a communist state

No such thing as a communist state thats a oxymoron. You mean SOCIALIST state.

i know what it is like to live in a communist regime.

Do you? since when have you lived in Communism? you lived in a Revisionist
Socialism and you think the CCCP is bad just because you lived in it?

Somehow i do not believe any of you who associate with the left have.

I couldnt for when the CCCP existed I wasnt born yet and when it fell I still wasnt born or not even a Fetus. Just because some of us havent lived in a Socialist state doesnt make us Leftists.