hey left commies, what would you do..

[Black Sheep]

Always been wondering that:
Suppose an anti-revisionist party came to power in your country.
Would you go along with the process, participate in the workers' councils and try to ensure democracy, or would you oppose it from the start?
Forming guerilla bands, propagandizing anti-goverment stuff, etc?

This is not a flame bait,it's a sincere question on tactics.But since it can get derailed into one, i m posting in chit chat.

[bcbm]

I feel like "workers councils" and "anti-revisionist" are mutually exclusive.

In anycase, I would bomb shit.

[h0m0revolutionary]

I'm an anarchist-communist, but I image left communists would feel the same as myself..

Of course we would still agitate within workers councils, but we wouldn't see them as particularly democratic structures if their power and democratric worth were usurped by a state.

We feel that history has validated the belief that there cannot be a workers state, because the state, in the hands of any class is oppressive and restictive. Trying to reform such a body we would argue is counter-revolutionary and an idea we would fight against. As Bakunin once said, "If you took the most ardent revolutionary, vested him in absolute power, within a year he would be worse than the Czar himself." - this is the nature of the state, we don't want to reform capital, we don't want to reform the state, we want their abolition!

[Comrade Kaile]

I'm an anarchist-communist, but I image left communists would feel the same as myself..

Of course we would still agitate within workers councils, but we wouldn't see them as particularly democratic structures if their power and democratric worth were usurped by a state.

We feel that history has validated the belief that there cannot be a workers state, because the state, in the hands of any class is oppressive and restictive. Trying to reform such a body we would argue is counter-revolutionary and an idea we would fight against. As Bakunin once said, "If you took the most ardent revolutionary, vested him in absolute power, within a year he would be worse than the Czar himself." - this is the nature of the state, we don't want to reform capital, we don't want to reform the state, we want their abolition!


Agreed
*nods head vigorously*

[Bilan]

When have left communists formed Guerilla bands?
Also, as bcbm said, "anti-revisionists coming to power and workers councils" negate one another.

[Bilan]

Of course we would still agitate within workers councils, but we wouldn't see them as particularly democratic structures if their power and democratric worth were usurped by a state.

Granted, but you're putting an anarchist view rather than a Left Communist view. Left Communists don't all negate the role of the state, and some see it as Workers Councils (considering they are the independent organs of class rule for the proletariat, and thus constitute a proletarian state).
Your analysis see's the state as a somewhat fixed thing, which is not subjected to the mode of production, which Left Communists do not (At least, not those who follow the Marxist school).



We feel that history has validated the belief that there cannot be a workers state, because the state, in the hands of any class is oppressive and restictive.

Workers councils and militias are restrictive and means of repressing a class - the bourgeoisie.



Trying to reform such a body we would argue is counter-revolutionary and an idea we would fight against.

Again, this is due to an understanding of the state which ignores its role and form within the movement of history. Furthermore, "smashing the bourgeois state apparatus" does not negate the role of a proletarian state, but insists that the bourgeois state must be smashed and organs of the proletariats rule, which execute its own political and economic dominance, and therefore, the supression of the bourgeoisie, must be created.



As Bakunin once said, "If you took the most ardent revolutionary, vested him in absolute power, within a year he would be worse than the Czar himself." - this is the nature of the state, we don't want to reform capital, we don't want to reform the state, we want their abolition!

I would say Left Communists agree with this, but would instead say, 'It is not possible to reform the bourgeois state, to use it for proletarian ends: the bourgeois state must be smashed!"
They key is the recognition of the state within the general movement of history.

[YSR]

I want the ICC to form guerrilla bands ASAP.

[Bilan]

I'll meet you under the clock tower at dawn. We shall form the mightiest guerilla band in all the land.

[Raúl Duke]

I want to join.

[Cumannach]

left communists aren't allowed to do things, it's against their ideology.

[Bilan]

And its against your ideology to think, or tolerate workers power, so don't push it, puppy.

[Bilan]

http://www.shooterdog.com/puppy.jpg

[Os Cangaceiros]

I love sectarianism.

[Bilan]

It makes me hot.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I think the left communists are probably the most sectarian folks on this board (arguably).

I can't count how many times this discussion has been brought up:

Random MLMist or Trot: "And so we should support such-and-such national liberation movement because..."

Left Communists, chanting in unison: "WE WILL NOT SUPPORT YOUR BOURGEOIS STRUGGLE."

That's OK, though, cuz I still like you guys. :D

[Sasha]

when the stalinist take over the left-communist will hide all the revolutionaries in their ivory towers. :p

[Killfacer]

when the stalinist take over the left-communist will hide all the revolutionaries in their ivory towers. :p

This why people say lefties aren't funny.

[Wanted Man]

It's a bit of an unlikely hypothetical. How would they "come to power" anyway?

And what's a "left communist guerrilla band"?

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/d/dd/Wikipedia_admins.jpg

[Killfacer]

It's a bit of an unlikely hypothetical. How would they "come to power" anyway?

And what's a "left communist guerrilla band"?

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/d/dd/Wikipedia_admins.jpg

Hey it's my uncle! I thought he was in prison for touching my little sister :confused:

[Bilan]

I think the left communists are probably the most sectarian folks on this board (arguably).

I can't count how many times this discussion has been brought up:

Random MLMist or Trot: "And so we should support such-and-such national liberation movement because..."

Left Communists, chanting in unison: "WE WILL NOT SUPPORT YOUR BOURGEOIS STRUGGLE."

That's OK, though, cuz I still like you guys. :D

That's just cuz Maoists and Trots will support anything with 20+ people without any regard for what it is.
:cool:
"Rent-a-crowd" politics!

[#FF0000]

I think the left communists are probably the most sectarian folks on this board (arguably).

I can't count how many times this discussion has been brought up:

Random MLMist or Trot: "And so we should support such-and-such national liberation movement because..."

Left Communists, chanting in unison: "WE WILL NOT SUPPORT YOUR BOURGEOIS STRUGGLE."

That's OK, though, cuz I still like you guys. :D

I always saw it pan out more like this...

Random ML or Trot: "hurfndrufn glorious sawvyet blahblah lenin lenin staln trotsky lninnnnnnnnnn"

Left Communist: *objective fact and truth*

And that goes on and on for 20 pages. Then an anarchist gets in on the argument and the Left Communist becomes wrong about everything.

That is how the world works.

[Cumannach]

was that puppy a yorkie?

[Bilan]

I dunno.
I google-imaged it and then it popped up, and I was like "nawww".
Thus.

[YSR]

Left commie guerrilla bands look a lot like Boy Scouts.

But Boy Scouts who do not support your bourgeois struggle. And get cranky easily.

'cept my boy Bilan.

[Pogue]

I always saw it pan out more like this...

Random ML or Trot: "hurfndrufn glorious sawvyet blahblah lenin lenin staln trotsky lninnnnnnnnnn"

Left Communist: *objective fact and truth*

And that goes on and on for 20 pages. Then an anarchist gets in on the argument and the Left Communist becomes wrong about everything.

That is how the world works.

LMAO :p

[Invariance]

I expect they would react like they historically did: be censored, tortured, put in labour camps, assassinated or exiled.

[Dr Mindbender]

Always been wondering that:
Suppose an anti-revisionist party came to power in your country.
Would you go along with the process, participate in the workers' councils and try to ensure democracy, or would you oppose it from the start?
Forming guerilla bands, propagandizing anti-goverment stuff, etc?

This is not a flame bait,it's a sincere question on tactics.But since it can get derailed into one, i m posting in chit chat.

i'd probably emigrate... ...assuming they'd let me out of the country. If not i'd probably do so illegally.

I'd take capitalism over state capitalism.

If it maintains a class system it aint my revolution.

[Devrim]

Always been wondering that:
Suppose an anti-revisionist party came to power in your country.
Would you go along with the process, participate in the workers' councils and try to ensure democracy, or would you oppose it from the start?
Forming guerilla bands, propagandizing anti-goverment stuff, etc?

This is not a flame bait,it's a sincere question on tactics.But since it can get derailed into one, i m posting in chit chat.

I will try to answer your question, Bulk Sheep. First, I can't really see anti-revisionist parties coming to power in countries where there is a strong working class. Yes, I think it can happen in Nepal, but I can't really see it happening in Germany for example*.

Also I would agree with BCBM;


I feel like "workers councils" and "anti-revisionist" are mutually exclusive.

I don't really think that 'workers' councils' have much of a place in anti-revisionist ideology at all. It is not really consistent with their view of how revolution unfolds.

If you mean by your question 'What would you do if you had an organisation in Nepal?', we would be in our workplaces advocating workers' struggle to resist the attacks that capitalism and the state are inflicting on working class living standards, just the same as we are in India, Mexico, the Philippines, Turkey and other countries.

Of course if the working class is defeated, we would probably end up, as another poster said 'be[ing] be censored, tortured, put in labour camps, assassinated or exiled', just as our comrades were after the failure of the Russian revolution.


Forming guerilla bands, propagandizing anti-goverment stuff, etc?

It isn't something we advocate at all.

Devrim

*Before I get lots of 'anti-revisionists' saying that they can't see left communists coming to power anywhere, I would just like to say that we think the working class has to seize power, not left communists.

[Devrim]

A few other things I would like to comment on;

We feel that history has validated the belief that there cannot be a workers state,

The ICC agrees with this.


I think the left communists are probably the most sectarian folks on this board (arguably).

Why?


I always saw it pan out more like this...

Random ML or Trot: "hurfndrufn glorious sawvyet blahblah lenin lenin staln trotsky lninnnnnnnnnn"

Left Communist: *objective fact and truth*

And that goes on and on for 20 pages. Then an anarchist gets in on the argument and the Left Communist becomes wrong about everything.

I don't understand what you are saying here.

Devrim

[Angry Young Man]

This why people say lefties aren't funny.
I laughed, you miserable bastard.

Cummanach:

was that puppy a yorkie?

Do you like Yorkie puppies ;)

[hugsandmarxism]

http://www.shooterdog.com/puppy.jpg

Should have posted a corgi puppy.

http://www.dailypuppy.com/media/dogs/anonymous/Teddy_Welsh_Corgi_01.jpg

[Angry Young Man]

You're a monarchist!!!!!

[hugsandmarxism]

You're a monarchist!!!!!

No, I'm an anime geek. Ein from Cowboy Beebop is a corgi.

http://collateraldamage.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/ein03.jpg

Plus I have a corgi of my own, and think their pointy ears are the cutest thing ever, so PISS OFF!!! ;)

[Jazzratt]

I always saw it pan out more like this...

Random ML or Trot: "hurfndrufn glorious sawvyet blahblah lenin lenin staln trotsky lninnnnnnnnnn"

Left Communist: *objective fact and truth*

And that goes on and on for 20 pages. Then an anarchist gets in on the argument and the Left Communist becomes wrong about everything.

That is how the world works.

I grinned so wide my head nearly fell off.

[Bilan]

'cept my boy Bilan.

Y'all know I love ya.

[Bilan]

Speaking of puppies, I saw the cutest one ever today. It was tiny and so friendly and bubbly. It was only a litle bit bigger than my hands! So cute!

[Pirate Utopian]

No, I'm an anime geek.
Lower than a monarchist! ;)

[Lord Testicles]

A left communist guerrilla band?


http://eyecube.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/cadbury-gorilla-drums.jpg

[black magick hustla]

It's a bit of an unlikely hypothetical. How would they "come to power" anyway?

And what's a "left communist guerrilla band"?

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/d/dd/Wikipedia_admins.jpg

actually in the us its more like a few immigrants some highschool dropouts some guy who dresses gangsta some highschool teacher etc

[black magick hustla]

ill form my one man guerrilla and take on the maoists

[black magick hustla]

tbh i bet the antirevisionist western groups are 1000000000000000000000000000% nerdier

[black magick hustla]

they probably also make stupid leftist jokes bout icepicks and .heh........U GOT PURGED LAWL

[LeninBalls]

Damn right we do.

[frozencompass]

A left communist guerrilla band?


http://eyecube.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/cadbury-gorilla-drums.jpg

Better than the 4chan party van.

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/229/4chanpartyvan.jpg

[Angry Young Man]

Lower than a monarchist! ;)
Can I drive my car into an anime convention?

[Pirate Utopian]

Can I drive my car into an anime convention?
http://www.politicsinfo.net/images/smilies/icon_yes.gif

[Bright Banana Beard]

Left-Communist IS SOOOOOO IDEALIST!!!! ONE WORLD REVOLUTION, HUT AND FORWARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111

[communard resolution]

tbh i bet the antirevisionist western groups are 1000000000000000000000000000% nerdier

When I see them sell papers at marches, they always strike me as ageing supply teachers who raided charity shops for blue jeans and plaid shirts made in the USSR circa 1972.

Not that there's anything wrong with supply teachers or Soviet made garments, of course. It's just that they've always got 'that' certain look down.

[superiority]

I cannot speak for left communists, but I can imagine that anarchists would probably be able to find common ground with anti-revisionists in the realm of icepick jokes.

[Devrim]

I cannot speak for left communists, but I can imagine that anarchists would probably be able to find common ground with anti-revisionists in the realm of icepick jokes.

Well no we don't. Personally I feel quite shocked that any anarchist can make jokes around the GPU state murder gangs, who murdered hundreds of revolutionary anarchist and communist workers in Spain, claiming another victim who they perceived as being a revolutionary.

I can understand the anarchist hatred of Trotsky. In my opinion, Trotsky was an integral part of the counter revolution in Russia, and at Kronstadt stood on the side of the state and capital against the working class.

Recognising this is a long way from cheering on statist murder gangs though.

Would you cheer on fascists murdering social democrats?

Devrim

[bcbm]

Thanks for that post Devrim.

[superiority]

Hey, if we can't laugh about state-sponsored mass murder organised by a tyrannical, bloodthirsty dictator who was crazy-paranoid to the point of sending assassins to faraway lands to murder political opponents who were essentially powerless, what can we laugh about, amirite?

[Invariance]

I'm sure Natalia Sedova found the whole experience of having two sons murdered as well as her husband just hilarious. :confused:

[The Red Next Door]

it depends if they start to get all stallanistic on us, i going to blow the stallin rat to hell.

[Angry Young Man]

I've a good eye for character, so if I suspect anyone of being a bit of a tyrant, I will have them executed.

Damn, caught out by the lack of inflection again. At least STJ can't open up a thread about how I have no SOH.

[PRC-UTE]

Always been wondering that:
Suppose an anti-revisionist party came to power in your country.
Would you go along with the process, participate in the workers' councils and try to ensure democracy, or would you oppose it from the start?
Forming guerilla bands, propagandizing anti-goverment stuff, etc?

This is not a flame bait,it's a sincere question on tactics.But since it can get derailed into one, i m posting in chit chat.

they would do what they always do: produce long winded tracts on the internet that no workers would ever read

[Devrim]

they would do what they always do: produce long winded tracts on the internet that no workers would ever read

Damn, it is just impossible to deal with these scathing critiques from Irish nationalists.

Devrim

[Leo]

actually we really do have lots of militants who used to be guerrillas...

[black magick hustla]

they would do what they always do: produce long winded tracts on the internet that no workers would ever read

i am sure that the irish socialist nationalist army (marxist leninist marmotist factionalist tendency) is on its prime in overthrowing imperialism and establishing gaelic as official language

[PRC-UTE]

i am sure that the irish socialist nationalist army (marxist leninist marmotist factionalist tendency) is on its prime in overthrowing imperialism and establishing gaelic as official language

of course, and I'm sketching out a few designs for a new Irish Socialist Nationalist Army (MLMFT) mural of you to be put up on the Falls ;) :lol:

[Angry Young Man]

Bad left communist guerillas, whatcha gonna do?
Whatcha gonna do when they come for you?