Islam, Christianity and other bollocks?

[MilitantAnarchist]

This is something of a wierd thing im posting... is religion bollocks? i know there would of been hundreds of these sort of posts before, but i was talking to people, and i am 100% antifascists, and completely not racist in anyway....... but i hate the muslim faith, and hindu, and catholic, and jewish.... not the people, but the faith.
Is that part of anarchism? or just secularist? or my own personal prejudice... even tho i have expierience of christianity and i no all religion is divisive....

not after anything major, just some light discussion from people that class themselves as anarchists, communists, marxists, or whatever....
Oppinions?

[Weezer]

Religion is subjective, and so are opinions on it, or them.

[Pirate Utopian]

Religion is bollocks!
That's not the inherit anarchist opinion but it most definitly doesnt conflict with it.

[trivas7]

Religion is bollocks!
That's not the inherit anarchist opinion but it most definitly doesnt conflict with it.
I deny it. No historical faith approves of anarchy as a social theory.

[Weezer]

I deny it. No historical faith approves of anarchy as a social theory.

Taoism is home of some anarchist texts.

Jesus was an anarcho-communist, as well.

[pastradamus]

This is something of a wierd thing im posting... is religion bollocks? i know there would of been hundreds of these sort of posts before, but i was talking to people, and i am 100% antifascists, and completely not racist in anyway....... but i hate the muslim faith, and hindu, and catholic, and jewish.... not the people, but the faith.
Is that part of anarchism? or just secularist? or my own personal prejudice... even tho i have expierience of christianity and i no all religion is divisive....

not after anything major, just some light discussion from people that class themselves as anarchists, communists, marxists, or whatever....
Oppinions?

Your absolutely right. You discriminate against the Religion and not the man/woman. Religion need questioning - that is certain. Though I would include in your argument the Protestant christian faiths. Most of which are worse than catholicism anyway, catholicism being a sincerely bullshit faith anyway! To open your mind a bit comrade, I will add something from my blog. Which I hope you find interesting relating to marx:



"Karl Marx's writings on religion were most interesting. The popular belief held is that Marx and Engles were two 100% anti-religious people who despised religion. This as a description is flawed. Marx clearly was not too interested in religion as he would have written a lot more about it if he was.

However, When he did write about religion we get a very realistic and previously unseen image of religion and its impact on productive society and the working class in general. It is of Interest that Marx described religion as “The religious world is but the reflex of the real world" when describing its social impact. Marx describes religion with relation to other social systems, economic structures and class struggle.In fact, religion is only dependent upon economics, nothing else — so much so that the actual religious doctrines are almost irrelevant. This is a functionalist interpretation of religion: understanding religion is dependent upon what social purpose religion itself serves, not the content of its beliefs.

There are 3 main factors as to why Marx dislikes, distrusts and completely dismisses religion.

1) Religion is hypocritical. Although it might profess valuable principles, it sides with the oppressors. Jesus advocated helping the poor, but the Christian church merged with the oppressive Roman state, taking part in the enslavement of people for centuries. In the Middle Ages the Catholic Church preached about heaven, but acquired as much property and power as possible.

2) Religion is irrational.It is a delusion and a worship of appearances that avoids recognizing underlying reality.

3) Finally Marx's last argument about religion is that it negates all that is dignified in a human being by rendering them servile and more amenable to accepting the status quo. In the preface to his doctoral dissertation, Marx adopted as his motto the words of the famous Greek hero Prometheus who defied the gods to bring fire to humanity: “I hate all gods,” with addition that they “do not recognize man’s self-consciousness as the highest divinity.”

It is important that we understand the origin and historical evolution of the great religions. Originally both Christianity and Islam were revolutionary movements of the poor and oppressed. This is something which Marx greatly respected and something that is often left unmentioned by the modern leftist. We see a lot of leftist sentiment in the old testament. But it is said best by Engles:

"The history of early Christianity has notable points of resemblance with the modern working class movement...Both are persecuted and baited, their adherents are despised and made the object of exclusive laws, the former as enemies of the human race, the latter as enemies of the state, enemies of religion, the family, social order. And in spite of all persecution, nay, even spurred on by it, they forge victoriously ahead."

The most evident written aspect about religion comes from one of Marxs' most famous quotes:

"Religious distress is at the same time the expression of real distress and the protest against real distress. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people." -Marx

The above section written in boldface shows what is usually quoted and presented as an anti-religious argument. The Italics is what is usually left out. So to conduct a study into this statement is needed .

In some ways, the quote is presented dishonestly because saying “Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature...” leaves out that it is also the “heart of a heartless world.” This is more a critique of society that has become heartless and is even a partial validation of religion that it tries to become its heart. In spite of his obvious dislike of and anger towards religion, Marx did not make religion the primary enemy of workers and communists. Had Marx regarded religion as a more serious enemy, he would have devoted more time to it.

Moreover, what is Marx saying when he mentions the opium of the people? What connotations does this have with religion? The problem is that opiates fail to fix a physical injury — you only forget your pain and suffering. This can be fine, but only if you are also trying to solve the underlying causes of the pain. Similarly, religion does not fix the underlying causes of people’s pain and suffering — instead, it helps them forget why they are suffering and causes them to look forward to an imaginary future when the pain will cease instead of working to change circumstances now. Even worse, this “drug” is being administered by the oppressors who are responsible for the pain and suffering.

On the other hand we have V.I Lenin. In modern socialist and communist theory Lenin plays a major part in formulating philosophies of the left. Lenin was adamantly and staunchly anti-religious. That is clear in a number of his quotes such as:

"The party of the proletariat demands that the state shall declare religion a private matter, but it does not for a moment regard the question of a fight against the opium of the people - the fight against religious superstition, etc., - as a private matter. The opportunists have so distorted the question as to make it appear that the Social Democratic Party regards religion as a private matter."

And he added that "the roots of modern religion are deeply embedded in the social oppression of the working masses, and in their apparently complete hopelessness before the blind forces of capitalism [...] no amount of reading matter, however enlightening, will eradicate religion" from the consciousness of the masses, "until the masses, themselves, learn to fight against the social facts from which religion arises in a united, disciplined, planned and conscious manner - until they learn to fight against the rule of the capitalist in all its forms"

However it is interesting to point out that the famous Father Gapon from 1905. He famously organised the petition and the peaceful demonstration, and who had been working for the tsarist police, himself underwent a sudden transformation after Bloody Sunday. He called for the revolutionary overthrow of the Tsar, and even came close to the Bolsheviks at one point. Lenin did not push him away, but tried to win him, although Gapon remained religious despite Lenin's arguments.

Lenin's flexible attitude was shown by his attitude to strikes. he warned against a sectarian attitude towards those workers who were religious but who participated in strikes: "To preach atheism at such a time and in such circumstances, would only be [I]playing into the hands of the church and the priests, who would desire nothing more than to have the workers participating in the strike movement divided in accordance with religious beliefs."

So it must be said that Religion has no place in leftism but remains a prominent member of society that Leftism must live with and so one must mix with the other on some occaisions even against Marx's will and throughout history we have seen the two live side by side. So yes, A leftist can also be religious. Preferrably a leftist should remain secular and religion should remain a private matter according to Lenin, But who has the right to tell the Individual what and what not to believe in I wonder? It is of my belief that Religion should not to be used against the masses and not to be used to spurn hate and violence against the fellow worker as we have seen in the past and of which we are seeing from every reach of the globe from Ireland to Iraq and from the USA to Uzbekistan. Religion can poison society and can prevent the worker from seeing more fruitful ideas such as socialism. So in this regard religion is a problem, albeit a problem that socialism can and will overcome."

[Bud Struggle]

pastradamus--excellent post. Thank you. It's interesting to see what the Marxist-Leninist position really is on religion.

[Communist Theory]

Jesus was an anarcho-communist, as well.
Where do you get that foolish idea from?

[Decolonize The Left]

This is something of a wierd thing im posting... is religion bollocks?

Yes. It doesn't, and has never attempted to, make any sense what-so-ever.


i know there would of been hundreds of these sort of posts before, but i was talking to people, and i am 100% antifascists, and completely not racist in anyway....... but i hate the muslim faith, and hindu, and catholic, and jewish.... not the people, but the faith.
Is that part of anarchism? or just secularist? or my own personal prejudice... even tho i have expierience of christianity and i no all religion is divisive....

It could be interpreted as anti-theist, though many (if not most) anti-theists don't hate religion/faith, rather, they believe it to be harmful to society. You may find this user group (http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?groupid=4) of help.

- August

[Jazzratt]

Jesus was an anarcho-communist, as well.

No. Jesus, if "he" existed at all [or if he was a representative of the early christians], existed prior to the ideas of anarchist communism. Hell, he existed prior to capitalism meaning that the class struggle in which all of revolutionary left politics is based so couldn't have been even he had heard of the idea. Also nothing that he is said to have done actually has anything to do with leftism in general and anarchism in specific.

[pastradamus]

No. Jesus, if "he" existed at all [or if he was a representative of the early christians], existed prior to the ideas of anarchist communism. Hell, he existed prior to capitalism meaning that the class struggle in which all of revolutionary left politics is based so couldn't have been even he had heard of the idea. Also nothing that he is said to have done actually has anything to do with leftism in general and anarchism in specific.

Yes but he did have many moral viewpoints and I would find these closer to leftism than anything else really in a modern context. Marx also liked Jesus as a human being, even describing him as an "early example of a revolutionary".

[Jazzratt]

Yes but he did have many moral viewpoints and I would find these closer to leftism than anything else really in a modern context. Marx also liked Jesus as a human being, even describing him as an "early example of a revolutionary".

Firstly that's as may be but AnarchistPunk specifically contended he was an anarchist communist. Secondly he may have been "moral" but his teachings of pasificsm in the face of abuse (turn the other cheek), obedience to the state (render unto caeser) and abandonment of the idea of improving one's lot in this world (the next, after all, is so much better). He may have done a few things that can be considered progressive but they were often for reasons that weren't particularly left-driven (kicking the monylenders out of the temple because "god's house" should be reserved for praying not because moneylending per se is evil). He (or they) was (or were) just like any other religious progressive(s) in history, contributing more to the respective religion [in this case founding it] than to progress.

Fuck me but that is a lot of parenthesis in one paragraph :o

[Forward Union]

Early European Anarchism was very infulenced by Christianity. But in those days, you had to tie whatever you believed in to some passage in the bible or other.

Anarchism is Secularist, opposing public/state bias toward any religion.

[Dyslexia! Well I Never!]

To be fair if as an anarchist you are devoted to the principle of opposing centralised power isn't the concept of a omnipotent being and his little fanatical fuckwits telling people to submit the definitive picture of what you struggle against?

Power doesn't get much more centralised than "I am the Alpha and the Omega, I made the fucking universe now give me your obidience and money before I punish you forever in hell." I just wish that was a quote from the bible. It would only have to be a page long and then I could ignore it even if they threw it at me.

[Lord Testicles]

To be fair if as an anarchist you are devoted to the principle of opposing centralised power isn't the concept of a omnipotent being and his little fanatical fuckwits telling people to submit the definitive picture of what you struggle against?

Indeed, I think that Bakunin says (writes?) it best:

"This contradiction lies here: they wish God, and they wish humanity. They persist in connecting two terms which, once separated, can come together again only to destroy each other. They say in a single breath: "God and the liberty of man," "God and the dignity, justice, equality, fraternity, prosperity of men" — regardless of the fatal logic by virtue of which, if God exists, all these things are condemned to non-existence. For, if God is, he is necessarily the eternal, supreme, absolute master, and, if such a master exists, man is a slave; now, if he is a slave, neither justice, nor equality, nor fraternity, nor prosperity are possible for him. In vain, flying in the face of good sense and all the teachings of history, do they represent their God as animated by the tenderest love of human liberty: a master, whoever he may be and however liberal he may desire to show himself, remains none the less always a master. His existence necessarily implies the slavery of all that is beneath him. Therefore, if God existed, only in one way could he serve human liberty — by ceasing to exist."

[mikelepore]

May 13: On this date in 1917, three children in Fatima, Portugal fabricated a cockamamie story about the Virgin Mary appearing to them in the rays of sunshine, and more than a billion people around the world have come to believe it. A hoax of this magnitude even P.T. Barnum was never able to pull off.

[welshboy]

Jesus was an anarcho-communist, as well.

I know some other folk have responded to this but what the hey.
Firstly how was a religious, military ruler anarchist-communist?
Secondly. JC didn't exist so couldn't have been an anarchist communist in any meaningful sense. Non-existence precludes holding political positions to be honest.

[welshboy]

Early European Anarchism was very infulenced by Christianity. But in those days, you had to tie whatever you believed in to some passage in the bible or other.

Could you qualify that? I get the feeling that you aren't talking about anarchism here but to it's precursors that sprung up around the English Civil War.

[Revy]

May 13: On this date in 1917, three children in Fatima, Portugal fabricated a cockamamie story about the Virgin Mary appearing to them in the rays of sunshine, and more than a billion people around the world have come to believe it. A hoax of this magnitude even P.T. Barnum was never able to pull off.

Actually, only the children believed they saw the Virgin Mary, and this was, I think, days before the whole mysterious thing with the thousands of eyewitnesses.
What the crowds saw, was referred to as the "Miracle of the Sun":

"Before the astonished eyes of the crowd, whose aspect was biblical as they stood bare-headed, eagerly searching the sky, the sun trembled, made sudden incredible movements outside all cosmic laws - the sun 'danced' according to the typical expression of the people."

Eye specialist Dr. Domingos Pinto Coelho, writing for the newspaper Ordem reported "The sun, at one moment surrounded with scarlet flame, at another aureoled in yellow and deep purple, seemed to be in an exceeding fast and whirling movement, at times appearing to be loosened from the sky and to be approaching the earth, strongly radiating heat".

The special reporter for the 17 October 1917 edition of the Lisbon daily, O Dia, reported the following, "...the silver sun, enveloped in the same gauzy grey light, was seen to whirl and turn in the circle of broken clouds...The light turned a beautiful blue, as if it had come through the stained-glass windows of a cathedral, and spread itself over the people who knelt with outstretched hands...people wept and prayed with uncovered heads, in the presence of a miracle they had awaited. The seconds seemed like hours, so vivid were they."

I think we can all guess what this actually sounds like and what this silver "sun" could have actually been, something from "out of this world" perhaps? :thumbup1:

But to people at that time, it was interpreted as a divine event.