No More Heroes? [Archive]

MilitantAnarchist

28th April 2009, 22:53

Pogue

28th April 2009, 23:04

Don't need heroes, be your own person, craft yourself how you want to be. If theres someone in the world who isnt there you think should be there try to fill the gap I suppose.

communard resolution

28th April 2009, 23:11

whilst listening to the stranglers song No More Heroes...

"Whatever happened to Leon Trotsky? He got an ice pick that made his ears burn" :lol:

I always thought that was a hiliarious half-verse.

Anyway, I probably have many heroes. Not least JJ Burnell of the Stranglers when it comes to playing bass. But generally, my heroes tend to be groups of people rather than individuals - such as the communist partisans of WW2 for instance. Or any other such examples where class solidarity is coupled with courage.

Pogue

28th April 2009, 23:14

yeh i mean i have alot of individuals i find inspirational and truly great people, anarchists in Spain in 36, ordinary people like Franca Viola, the sicilian rape victim i made a large post on a week or two ago, partisans etc but you don't need a hero. i think you really should focus on your won potential which is somehwat limitless if you approach life the right way. don't spend life chasing the dreams of others, live your own life in a 'heroic' way.

MilitantAnarchist

28th April 2009, 23:22

Don't need heroes, be your own person, craft yourself how you want to be. If theres someone in the world who isnt there you think should be there try to fill the gap I suppose.

exactly, thats what i think... it would just be nice to have someone to look up too, but also i do agree with the other guy, i admire groups of people (like The Angry Brigade, Crass, and generally all the people who live in autonomous communes) but that isnt idolising its more admiration... if you get me...
But i would like to fill the gap, even if it is just to inspire the people who are like me, sorta thing, im doing alot of writing at the minute but writing is pointless without action.

Bright Banana Beard

28th April 2009, 23:42

Heroes is counter-productive to our movement. The real heroes lied in the proletarian movement and not on cult of personality.

MilitantAnarchist

28th April 2009, 23:53

I no what you meen, but i dont think it is counter-productive... i dont believe in masters or rulers, but 'heroes' could be usefull, if they werent so useless....
but your write, i think its more a case of celebrity then personality. because i did see a headline describeing jade goody as a 'hero' (for the uk people to get annoyed about haha)...
I think someone who had something to say, and would be more of a anti-hero, would be more useful. If you no what i meen. Depends on your definition of the word hero i guess... i meen someone who is inspiring, inovating, intellectual n the rest of the 'good stuff', not someone to worship.... tho i think ive lost my own way on this bit now lol

MilitantAnarchist

29th April 2009, 00:03

also, another little observation... wont make a thread on it cos there has probibly been millions (i even started one when i first came here) but how can someone be an 'Anarcho Stalinist' because to me, as an anarchist im fighting so some fucker like stalin can do the same shit again! its like someone calling themselves a 'Nazi-Communist' in my oppinion

Madvillainy

29th April 2009, 00:11

i admire groups of people like The Angry Brigade, Crass, and generally all the people who live in autonomous communes

You mean hippies.

MilitantAnarchist

29th April 2009, 00:23

yea i guess, but what is wrong with that... i guess more Conflict to, because they fought the right wing when they were threatened by em... I admire Class War (i think, im pretty undecided about them) and Antifa...

pastradamus

29th April 2009, 02:30

Was thinking to myself (whilst listening to the stranglers song No More Heroes... hence the thread title) but i dont think i have a hero....
There is no revolutionary or philospher i any more then 60% agree with or idolise....
Is there anybody that agrees with me on this one? or do you idolise a poltical hero?
Also as a side topic on this... there are no (so called) heroes anymore are there? (could argue there is many, but none on the scale of someone like Che or Trotsky or whoever...)

Firstly, I would like to say Great song.

Secondly, you shouldnt be looking for Idols.

and Finally heros and heronies are all around you. The single mother who works and keeps her children; healthy, clothed, a roof over their head, educated is a hero. The family man on State-support who gets by day-by-day due to his hard efforts. In some ways thats near impossible for some people but they still manage. I know I sound overly-romantic but its people like this that give us leftists strength.

Andropov

29th April 2009, 14:44

Anybody that goes over and above the expected self sacrafice for the betterment of the masses.

Bitter Ashes

29th April 2009, 15:15

Heroes is counter-productive to our movement. The real heroes lied in the proletarian movement and not on cult of personality.
Definatly. The rallying point should not be an individual/s but solidarity itself. Everyone who takes a part in improving the lives of workers is equaly as important, as without workers who labour in factories or farms for the benefit of the working class and not the bourgeois there cannot be those who hold arms against capitalism. Without those who hold arms against capitalism, there cannot be workers who exist to support other workers. It's a mutaly benefitial relationship and totaly dependant upon each other.

Communist Theory

29th April 2009, 15:17

The Proletariat are my heroes.
Also I think Subcomandante Marcos is pretty cool.
Oh Ralph Nader is a hero too. :laugh:

Wakizashi the Bolshevik

30th April 2009, 13:48

Well, I suppose I could call Lenin a hero.
As wel as Marx, Engels, etc...

I call every person fighting for the People a hero.
The Red Army soldier first shot in the nazi invasion of 1939 was a hero, the Communist Party member and Red Army-veteran run over by a truck was a hero, the 7296th follower of Communism was a hero. Most of the members of this forum are heroes.

I don't know one of them, but if they fight and struggle for Communism and for the people, they are heroes.

Chambered Word

2nd May 2009, 18:09

Was thinking to myself (whilst listening to the stranglers song No More Heroes... hence the thread title) but i dont think i have a hero....
There is no revolutionary or philospher i any more then 60% agree with or idolise....
Is there anybody that agrees with me on this one? or do you idolise a poltical hero?
Also as a side topic on this... there are no (so called) heroes anymore are there? (could argue there is many, but none on the scale of someone like Che or Trotsky or whoever...)

The problem is these days is everyone is lured into a false sense of security, few have the balls to become a hero and those that do won't find many supporters when the time comes.

I admire people like Guevara and Trotsky greatly, but it's no use obsessing over them. Once you start obsessing over them you become a jackoff who can't focus on achieving anything themselves, who also inflate the egos of crazy totalitarians like Stalin and Mao.

MilitantAnarchist

2nd May 2009, 21:33

thats the sort of comments i wanted when i started this thread.
i'm very much getting into existentialism, but cant really find any philosphers or anything on the subject. If i did, i would love to no more about them, but i would never obsess over one persons ideals, because it stops you in thinking of your own.

And my only point on the comercial punk scene is that its selling out, your giving money to corporate arseholes. Atleast with the none comercial punk scene its DIY and you know the guys in it.... Stiff Little Fingers are a good example, at Rebellion festival they had champaign and lobster backstage, n were in a posh hotel. the bands i no were on cans of larger and hotdogs, that they got themselves and stoppin n the same cheap B&B as me.
Who do you trust? one of us or some rich tosser? n if you dont give a fuck then you chose the wrong politics.

redarmyfaction38

2nd May 2009, 21:47

Was thinking to myself (whilst listening to the stranglers song No More Heroes... hence the thread title) but i dont think i have a hero....
There is no revolutionary or philospher i any more then 60% agree with or idolise....
Is there anybody that agrees with me on this one? or do you idolise a poltical hero?
Also as a side topic on this... there are no (so called) heroes anymore are there? (could argue there is many, but none on the scale of someone like Che or Trotsky or whoever...)

on my my favourite song list :)

idolising che, trotsky or lenin is just the kind of thinking the capitalists encourage.
there are a great many philosophers and revolutionary leaders that we can learn from, they were and some are "heroes" in the persute of a better future for us all.

the truth, however, is that the true "heroes" are everyone of those that stand up and say "i'm not having any more of this bullshit, i want a better life for me and all the people like me and i'm gonna fight for it".
none of those above mentioned "heroes" could have acheived anything without the rest of the true "heroes".

Stranger Than Paradise

2nd May 2009, 22:01

There is no point to get too wrapped up in the whole 'heroes' stuff. Sure I admire Durruti for what he has done, but when we think too much about an individual and not the wider picture that's when it has gone too far and is farcical. There is no point to idolising an individual as it distracts us from the real, tangible struggle around us all the time.

YoungScouseRed

3rd May 2009, 00:26

"Whatever happened to Leon Trotsky? He got an ice pick that made his ears burn" :lol:

I always thought that was a hiliarious half-verse.

Anyway, I probably have many heroes. Not least JJ Burnell of the Stranglers when it comes to playing bass. But generally, my heroes tend to be groups of people rather than individuals - such as the communist partisans of WW2 for instance. Or any other such examples where class solidarity is coupled with courage.

Same here, they make the hairs stand up on the back of my neck...
One of my favourite pictures is the red flag flying over Berlin:wub:

x

BobKKKindle$

3rd May 2009, 00:35

Closed. This is not chit chat, it is politics. It is not the right forum to talk about your favorite bands. If someone wants to continue the more serious aspects of this thread then please PM me and I will restore the relevant posts, but from what I can tell the past few pages have been silly.

EDIT: The OP has requested that this thread be re-opened, so I have removed the non-serious comments, which constituted most of the posts that were made in this thread, and please keep discussion on-topic from now on. I'm sorry if this thread is now rather disjointed, but this is because it was previously filled with inappropriate posts.

MilitantAnarchist

3rd May 2009, 20:33

But when it comes to 'heroes' the way i see it, none of the popular lot (ie marx, trotsky, rousseau, (twat) stalin, berkman) talk to me, i dont agree with all of what they say. I would never say i GREATLY ADMIRE any of them, Berkman and Goldman the most, but i dont idolise them, although idolising someone is a bad thing because it tunnles down your views on other oppinions, most people either left or right have someone they look up too, and take their views from...
I have none of them. Is that a case of the time ive grown up in and just a case of changing times, or as the song says, there are no more heroes anymore? Or even more scary, a case of there never were any heroes, just a bunch of con artists?

3rd May 2009, 20:52

The angry brigade blew up a few tory's houses, in that respect it's fair enough to say they were cool. Oh and we don't need heroes.

MilitantAnarchist

3rd May 2009, 21:04

The angry brigade blew up a few tory's houses, in that respect it's fair enough to say they were cool. Oh and we don't need heroes.

Angry brigade are sort of heroes of mine, im trying/going to create the Hostile Brigade.... dont wanna show my hand online, but lessons are learned :tt2:

We dont need heroes, but if i could inspire just one person away from nazism (and communism come to think of it) i would be proud. Never would want to be a hero, because once that lable is on someone you might aswell kill them, because your message will be watered down by 'fashionable' sort of accessorising. Like seeing Che's face all over Primark clothing
OR WHAT ANNOYS ME EVEN MORE THE CIRCLED A ON A INSURANCE ADVERT AND ON MUSIC AWARD SHOWS, WHAT THE FUCKS UP WITH THAT?

But turning someone into a 'hero' makes em redundant. If you no wat i meen :p

communard resolution

3rd May 2009, 21:18

if i could inspire just one person away from nazism (and communism come to think of it) i would be proud.

Why would you want to inspire people away from communism? Are you opposed to the idea of workers being in control rather than just wage slaves?

MilitantAnarchist

3rd May 2009, 21:39

No im not, but i no im smart enough to no, i dont need the state to tell me that or anything else for that matter. My favourite saying, and ive said it before here, is;

Whoever puts his hand on me to govern me, is a usurper and a tyrant. I declare him my enemy.

And i stand by that.

communard resolution

3rd May 2009, 21:51

No im not, but i no im smart enough to no, i dont need the state to tell me that or anything else for that matter.

If the workers are in control they are the state, and they make the decisions.

STJ

3rd May 2009, 21:57

I have no heroes.

MilitantAnarchist

3rd May 2009, 22:04

If the workers are in control they are the state, and they make the decisions.

What like in Cuba?
Or North Korea?
Or China?

I dont beleive in any state, because it will ultimately become oppressive, no goverment or authority has ever been good to the people.

mykittyhasaboner

3rd May 2009, 22:21

What like in Cuba?
Actually in Cuba workers have significant democratic input.

Solidarity with Cuba (http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?do=discuss&group=&discussionid=1524)

Or North Korea?In spite of revisionism and isolation, Korean workers have managed to secure some significant gains: Korean Truth Project (http://koreantruth.awardspace.com/home.html).

Or China?Gross revisionism has eroded workers power, so this example doesn't really apply.

I dont beleive in any state, because it will ultimately become oppressive, no goverment or authority has ever been good to the people.
Right, and what is your rationale behind this? How do all governments and authority ultimately become oppressive?

communard resolution

3rd May 2009, 22:23

What like in Cuba?

Not that I'm aware of, although opinions vary on this. I don't have enough knowledge of Cuban socialism to judge to what extent workers are in control over production and distribution there. I would guess not a great deal - but that would just be an uninformed guess.

Have you got any detailed info on this?

Or North Korea?No.

Or China?No.

To cite the latter two countries as representative of the ideas of communism is like likening early Christianity to the Spanish Inquisition.

redarmyfaction38

3rd May 2009, 22:29

What like in Cuba?
Or North Korea?
Or China?

I dont beleive in any state, because it will ultimately become oppressive, no goverment or authority has ever been good to the people.
your missing something mate, and this is not a criticism, just something to think about.
when the working class finally seize control of the means of production etc etc, it will not be our final victory, elements of the old order will be working, campaigning and buying support in order to derail or corrupt our revolution, the workers state is necessary in order to defeat those capitalist elements and their paid accomplices, it's called the dictatorship of the proletariat.
this is what happened during the russian revolution, the revolution itself was carried out with the minimum of resistance, the civil war was financed by western imperialist powers and while it didn't defeat the revolution, it left it without enough workers to implement the dictatorship of the proletariat, it left the ussr, tired of war and civil war, wide open to stalin.

cuba, btw, has been very succesful in the face of international capitalist aggression, what would you have it do? succumb to western ideas of democracy or enforce a dictatorship that generally serves the mass of people?
healthcare, education and public services in cuba far outweigh what any worker in the capitalist usa can expect! are we to abandon support for cuba on the basis of it not conforming to bourgeiouse or anarchist concepts of "democracy"?

MilitantAnarchist

3rd May 2009, 22:51

No...

Killfacer

3rd May 2009, 23:30

Frankly the idea we need loads of heroes to guide us is un-socialist.

Il Medico

5th May 2009, 03:13

Was thinking to myself (whilst listening to the stranglers song No More Heroes... hence the thread title) but i dont think i have a hero....
There is no revolutionary or philospher i any more then 60% agree with or idolise....
Is there anybody that agrees with me on this one? or do you idolise a poltical hero?
Also as a side topic on this... there are no (so called) heroes anymore are there? (could argue there is many, but none on the scale of someone like Che or Trotsky or whoever...)
Comrade, there may not be any saints of our cause like Che or Trotsky any more. However, every brother in arms for the revolution is a hero. Every working man, women, and sadly enough child.:( There may be no more role models of revolution, but we don't need them. What we need is to make heroes of ourselves. Viva Revolution my friends!
Captain Jack

Angry Young Man

5th May 2009, 14:58

Angry Young Man

5th May 2009, 15:23

In fact, I foresee that when the class war breaks the levee, then...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaglXj7RL1Y

I know Bobkindles is morally opposed to music, but I have to share this video.

вор в законе

5th May 2009, 19:03

The era of heroes is fortunately long gone. To paraphrase Brecht "woe are the people that are in need of heroes".

Uppercut

7th May 2009, 14:02

I haven't heard the song, but No More Heroes for the wii is a kick ass game. lol

Il Medico

8th May 2009, 22:29

Thinking about it, the world will likely be won by civil war, so heroes and martyrs might be important. Think Enemy at the Gates. Plus the Greece riots in January were greatly spurred by Alexis. Heroes are good for morale, which war can't be won without.
Yes, however, heroes do not create movements, movements create heroes. Che was made by the Marxist/socialist movement. So was Lenin and Trotsky. Anyone fighting for a cause is a hero of that cause. However, Movements do not succeed because it has heroes, but because it has leaders. So in away it is not heroes we need, but leaders. And that is what we are truly lacking today.:(
Stay Strong Comrades,
Captain Jack

cyu

8th May 2009, 23:04

So in away it is not heroes we need, but leaders. And that is what we are truly lacking today.

I'm not going to wait for your Messiah...

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=29758&type=card

See the text in italics :lol:

Il Medico

9th May 2009, 01:33

I'm not going to wait for your Messiah...

I said nothing of a Messiah, I said that our movement is floundering because no one has taken charge. We need some one to take charge and make us follow them. For what good is a leader if they only leads themselves.

Captain Jack

P.S. If you don't want to wait lets see you lead us!:lol:

cyu

9th May 2009, 18:50

We need some one to take charge and make us follow them.

By "take charge" do you mean someone who will put a gun to your head and say, "follow me or die"? Somehow I don't think that will result in a very successful revolution, but maybe that's only because I have anarchist leanings.

I prefer to think in terms of "influence" rather than "leadership" - but words have hazy definitions, so it may be better to dispense with them altogether. The point is that blind followers is stupid - the blind leading the blind takes everyone off a cliff. If instead you could convince people that your ideas are right because you encourage them to think and come to the same conclusions, that is better for the movement.

There are 2 ways to run movements.

The first is based partly on secrecy: I know better and you should just trust my super-secret knowledge and do what I tell you. Movements like these are easy to stop - just take out the "leader" and it's dead in its tracks.

The second is based on the spread of memes: Freely give out your "secrets" to as many people in the movement as possible - "infect" them all with the ability to carry on and spread the movement. The movement then becomes much harder to stop, because there is no "head of the snake" that your opponents can chop off. True that it may hurt your ego that you don't get to remembered for all time as some great revolutionary hero - you know what? Fuck your ego.

Il Medico

12th May 2009, 03:03

By "take charge" do you mean someone who will put a gun to your head and say, "follow me or die"? Somehow I don't think that will result in a very successful revolution, but maybe that's only because I have anarchist leanings.

I prefer to think in terms of "influence" rather than "leadership" - but words have hazy definitions, so it may be better to dispense with them altogether. The point is that blind followers is stupid - the blind leading the blind takes everyone off a cliff. If instead you could convince people that your ideas are right because you encourage them to think and come to the same conclusions, that is better for the movement.

There are 2 ways to run movements.

The first is based partly on secrecy: I know better and you should just trust my super-secret knowledge and do what I tell you. Movements like these are easy to stop - just take out the "leader" and it's dead in its tracks.

The second is based on the spread of memes: Freely give out your "secrets" to as many people in the movement as possible - "infect" them all with the ability to carry on and spread the movement. The movement then becomes much harder to stop, because there is no "head of the snake" that your opponents can chop off. True that it may hurt your ego that you don't get to remembered for all time as some great revolutionary hero - you know what? Fuck your ego.
I am not advocating one cult like leader, but there must be people among the masses that will lead the rest. Not every one can lead, I know I probably could not lead an army. As for my ego, well I would like to be remembered, however, as a writer I would prefer that my literary works live on. I am not that worried about it though, when humanity is dust and gone, no one is going to remember anybody anyways!:lol:

cyu

12th May 2009, 19:48

there must be people among the masses that will lead the rest
Why? What makes you think everyone shouldn't think and act for themselves? What does "lead" mean to you anyway?

I know I probably could not lead an army

Maybe you're not good with military tactics, but that doesn't mean you have to obey some self-described "leader" - if there's some guy who has some great ideas about tactics, then fine, go learn some tactics from him. If you like his suggestions, then spread the word and try to convince others that these tactics are good. If anybody doesn't like his suggestions, should they be forced to follow his orders?

Since I am an anarchist, obviously I would say no, they shouldn't be forced to follow his orders. If you disagree, please enlighten me as to why others should be forced to follow - and how would you be able determine who is the right tactician to follow? To the anarchist, each person decides for himself who is best tactician and then acts accordingly.