Where do policemen&similar fit in the class system ?

[BogdanV]

I guess that most of you probably look on policemen with a great deal of mistrust, but as far as domestic crimes go (thefts, rapes, etc.), I have no problems with the aims of this particular job.
Anyway, my question is where do policemen fit in today's class system ?
They don't own any means of production, so they're not cappies, but then again, their job doesn't produce anything, but rather maintains the current social order.
Looking on it from another point of view, their profession is being exploited by the capitalists as much as proletarians jobs are being exploited by the capitalists. The difference is that cops are being used to maintain the means of enrichment, while the "proles" are being used to generate their riches.
Basically, cops and proles are equally considered as tools, only their utility differs.
So, should policemen be in the same class as the proletariat, as they are also exploited, or are they a sort of a metaphorical "no-mans land" between the working class and the capitalists ?

[Stranger Than Paradise]

They belong in the sights of my AK-47.

I agree with you, even though we disagree on the place of guns in a Communist society doesn't mean we disagree with their usage against the enemy in this society.

[JimmyJazz]

good thread, but here are previous ones:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/arent-cops-just-t92818/index.html?t=92818&highlight=capitalist+state
http://www.revleft.com/vb/cops-and-security-t63126/index.html?t=63126&highlight=capitalist+state
http://www.revleft.com/vb/police-worthwhile-ally-t106214/index.html?t=106214&highlight=police+class
http://www.revleft.com/vb/why-many-leftists-t64925/index.html?t=64925&highlight=capitalist+state

Edit: and for what it's worth, the Fraternal Order of Police (the police "union") is one of the most reactionary organizations in the United States. They send a representative on TV to defend every police murder, they lobby against naming city streets/parks/schools after socialist organizers and activists who were murdered by cops (such as Fred Hampton), and from my own personal experience, they won't collaborate in the slightest with even business unions. They will show up at picket lines, however...to keep the strikers from stepping off the curb or breaking whatever other inane local ordinance, and shut down their picket line if they do.

[Velkas]

They are the servants of the rich.

[Bitter Ashes]

They are the servants of the rich.
Like all workers are. The problems start when workers enjoy the act of bieng a servant to the rich.

[#FF0000]

I guess that most of you probably look on policemen with a great deal of mistrust, but as far as domestic crimes go (thefts, rapes, etc.), I have no problems with the aims of this particular job.
Anyway, my question is where do policemen fit in today's class system ?
They don't own any means of production, so they're not cappies, but then again, their job doesn't produce anything, but rather maintains the current social order.
Looking on it from another point of view, their profession is being exploited by the capitalists as much as proletarians jobs are being exploited by the capitalists. The difference is that cops are being used to maintain the means of enrichment, while the "proles" are being used to generate their riches.
Basically, cops and proles are equally considered as tools, only their utility differs.
So, should policemen be in the same class as the proletariat, as they are also exploited, or are they a sort of a metaphorical "no-mans land" between the working class and the capitalists ?

Sure, they might be exploited in that sense. However, whenever they act in most capacities as a police officer, they are enforcing bourgeois rule. That's their very job description.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Someone is going to read this thread and miss out on the sarcasm.

[Cynical Observer]

proletariat. for the reasons u stated, and it could be said that they produce "peace"

note: i don't like police, and i don't believe in the concept of a police force, but if they have to be labeled this is what i would label them.

[JimmyJazz]

Someone is going to read this thread and miss out on the sarcasm.


I think that about a lot of revleft threads.

[StalinFanboy]

Like all workers are. The problems start when workers enjoy the act of bieng a servant to the rich.
Except MOST workers aren't enforcing bourgeois laws.

[mykittyhasaboner]

Well at work today I gave a cop his food, and right after that I told him to "have fun stripping people of their rights." He kinda looked at me weirdly and drove off.


Fuck cops.

[Bitter Ashes]

Well at work today I gave a cop his food, and right after that I told him to "have fun stripping people of their rights." He kinda looked at me weirdly and drove off.


Fuck cops.
lol. Most of them probably dont even know that thier "bosses" are really the bourgeois in the first place and have been deluded, like most workers, that representive democracy has created fair laws. So I imagine they would look at you very wierdly, yes :p

[Kassad]

Well, a really interesting story that Gloria La Riva, the Party for Socialism and Liberation's 2008 presidential candidate, tells. Basically, she was visiting Cuba during an incredibly hot period and she was trying to get on a bus that was taking people different places. Well, basically what happened is the bus driver miscounted and let something like 45-50 people on the bus and had to kick people off, as it only seated 40 people. Of course, it was very hot and people wanted to go home, so they were very restless and irritable, so the bus driver called the police.

The police arrived shortly after. The people on the bus and the driver explained the situation. Gloria describes the scene as the police taking everyone off the bus and discussing the issue with the people. People were leaning on the police officers so they could get in and hear the story and such. People were up close to the police and discussing things with them. No violence. Now, what would happen in the United States? 'Get back! Clear out!' Out with the batons, hands on their guns. The police in the United States would never let people come close to touching them or getting near them.

So what do we see here? In the Cuban workers democracy, the police are workers just like everyone else. They don't abuse their power. They maintain a safe environment without being incredibly zealous or violent. There's no need for such violence and threats in a socialist state. The police can exist as a rational force that maintains a respectable environment and manages squabbles and other affairs. Police in a socialist state will be nothing like they are in the capitalist world and Cuba serves as a perfect example as to how the police in a workers state would serve the people, not oppress them.

[JimmyJazz]

Well, for that matter, English police still don't carry guns as far as I know (though maybe this has changed in recent years with all the terrorism hysteria).

And a community board to which police are held accountable--or that even screens potential new hirees for the police--has been a call since the 60's, and it sounds like it could be very effective to me.

Ending police brutality is something that can and should be done now, in my opinion, as a reformist step. Not only because it can be, but also because the police are a major impediment to revolutionary change.

And the statement that "Police in a socialist state will be nothing like they are in the capitalist world" is a ridiculously general conclusion to draw from the single example of Cuba. Or even worse: from a single example of an instance that supposedly occurred one time within Cuba. The idea that changing from private to collective property rights magically fixes all else is really dangerous; it leads to less vigilance, and potentially, to a socialist police state (or a socialist male-supremacist state, or a socialist homophobic state, or what have you).

[Bitter Ashes]

Well, for that matter, British police still don't carry guns as far as I know (though maybe this has changed in recent years with all the terrorism hysteria).

And a community board to which police are held accountable--or that even screens potential new hirees for the police--has been a call since the 60's.

Ending police brutality is something that can and should be done now, in my opinion, as a reformist step. Not only because it can be, but also because the police are a major impediment to revolutionary change.
We have armed response teams, but they dont actualy patrol with thier firearms. They're just phoned in if they're needed. A bit like a SWAT team in that way.

The British Transport Police in airports are armed too, although I think that's more of a high visability detterant thing.

A community board is an excellent idea. Sherriffs in the United States are elected by thier community and the Sherrif is then entrusted to hire deputies. I like the idea of that system as the accountability is there.

[Vendetta]

Police are workers subverted by the state to act against the working class.

[#FF0000]

proletariat. for the reasons u stated, and it could be said that they produce "peace"

note: i don't like police, and i don't believe in the concept of a police force, but if they have to be labeled this is what i would label them.

That is totally wrong, though.

[rosie]

A police officers job is to maintain the status quo, by any means necessary. They are the tools used by capitalists to protect private property laws. In my opinion, they are members of the class enemy. Let's think about it in terms of war...cops are the soldiers invading a part of the world. The proletariat are that regions' people. Who is the enemy? Cops do some good, don't get me wrong. But the good they do is not anything that you or I could not do if the current system allowed for it. Calling the police when there has been a robbery or a beating or a rape or any other kind of social injustice is not the way to go. Organizing within your own community to set up neighbor hood safety watches is a more just means of ensuring a safer area. How many times have you seen a cop beat a black person down without justification? Or how many times have you been beaten by an "officer of the law" ? The cops do not protect us. Not from our neighbors, not from ourselves. If anything, they increase crimes. Gun crimes, rape, drugs, and other random acts of violence. How many times have you seen on the news "Local officer charged with rape" or "local police officers gun down perpetrator"....none of this is necessary or justified. The cops are not your friends. They are the class enemies watch dogs.

[rosie]

[/QUOTE] The police can exist as a rational force that maintains a respectable environment and manages squabbles and other affairs. Police in a socialist state will be nothing like they are in the capitalist world and Cuba serves as a perfect example as to how the police in a workers state would serve the people, not oppress them.[/QUOTE]
Although the police may react in a rational and respectable manner in a workers democracy, we can't just expect for the current capitalist rule to vanish and keep the same police force. The current police enabling capitalist rule break the laws we have in place as it is. They beat people, they rape, they murder, they steal drugs from people for their own personal use. The cops here are domestic terrorists. They can't be expected (or trusted for that matter) to change their own behavior just because the law of the land has changed. When the people are the government, and the "police" are societal mediators, there will be peace. That is not achievable with the current forces we have. In America, all police officers carry guns, police issued Mace, Tasers, and a Maglite (a big huge special issue Maglite...not just used to light up dark areas, but to beat and kill people with. A cops flashlight is their "billy club"). Like i stated in a previous response, cops are not our friends. They are the watch dogs of the class enemy. That is thier job. And they will brutally enforce and maintain the status quo if they want. If we organize within our own communities to set up neighborhood safety watches, we can not only prevent social crime (such as rape, domestic violence and robbery) but put an end to it all together.

[hugsandmarxism]

At my university, I often have classes with Criminal Justice majors, who are for the most part preparing to go into the police force. I remember a Political Sociology class in which me and my anarchist buddy had to debate with the CJ crowd over an incident in which a policeman murdered a woman by shooting her in the face with a tear gas canister. The argument I heard from these soon to be cops was "well, she shouldn't have been there in the first place" with others being so callous as to say "well, she had it coming." They also have a similar view on surveillance, often saying something along the lines of "well, you don't have anything to worry about unless you have something to hide." I believe that police are proletarians who'se response to opression by the bourgeois is to oppress fellow proletarians. They are uber reactionaries, ultra-nationalists, and they side with the bourgeois, although enjoy none of their priveleges (except free reign to beat whoever they want with little to no accountability). They represent authority, patriarchy and greed. Whenever a state decides that some people are "un-needed," and follow the path of genocide and violent state repression, the police are the first to answer the call. They are a class of anti-proletarians, who exist to keep us manufacturing wealth for their masters.

Fuck em.

[Vendetta]

And we shoot them.

You seem to be quite adamant on that subject. :thumbup1:

[hugsandmarxism]

And we shoot them.

I'd like to think that despite their violent reaction and enforcement of bourgeois hegemony, their brutalization and subjugation of workers to their whims, their ingrained nationalism, chauvinism, racism, patriarchy, and just plain sadism in some of these guys, that at least some of these people could be brought to reason. The ideal thing would be to turn police on their superiors, as we must with soldiers and their COs, and the workers against their managers... but you can't win them all, certainly not the really fascistic ones. Sad, really...

[hugsandmarxism]

I think a few will switch sides thats it.

Yeah, very few. The rest will act as a counter-revolutionary vanguard, as they always have, and think themselves heroes for it. They will follow all the orders, from the order to round up all political dissidents and throw them in prisons to the order to shoot them in the streets. The bourgeois won't be doing their own fighting of course; this class of anti-proletarians will be doing the heavy lifting, as well as the state and private armies under their thumb. An unfortunate reality indeed.

[Black Dagger]

STJ, i've split (http://www.revleft.com/vb/spam-t107739/index.html) a bunch of your posts from this thread into the trashcan.

One-line posts like 'Yes it is' are Spam according to the board rules. Posting the same sentence over and over again 'And we shoot them' at intervals is also obviously spam.

If you don't have anything meaningful to contribute then please don't post, otherwise you will be given an infraction for spamming.

[BogdanV]

Well, about some of the police siding with the people in the case of a revolution...
That happened in the '89 Revolution in Romania with the Army.
Tanks and soldiers started rolling-out on the streets and although the first day ended in bloodshed, the army soon switched sides, or more exactly, disobeyed orders and let the people do their jobs. Only the state police kept on fighting.
Also, although its probably a remote situation, low-ranking policemen in my country are either dumb-fucks as described by some, or they are nothing more than the victims of their superiors.
Someone talked about policemen abusing their powers for illegal purposes.Yes, that happens indeed, but what about the fact that higher-ranking officers abuse their subordinates in order to do their dirty jobs ?
What about the fact that most policemen are angry when they are given orders to sit idle and take no action when they caught a damn cappie breaking the law (killing someone on the crosswalk by speeding) ? They are the mockery of everyone in the country. Heck, they even entered folklore as being brainless wimps.
Policemen in my country have no pride, don't give a fuck about the ruling class and in the end, they equally swear all the fucktards from the corrupt businessman all the way up to the president.