Austrian author guilty of glorifying Nazi era sentenced to 5 jail years

[Holden Caulfield]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_XLxL5xIl-m8/SfZQisc0fAI/AAAAAAAAB6c/pdbqdFf_j9s/s320/GerdHonsik.jpeg (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_XLxL5xIl-m8/SfZQisc0fAI/AAAAAAAAB6c/pdbqdFf_j9s/s1600-h/GerdHonsik.jpeg)
Austrian Gerd Honsik is led to the courtroom
in Vienna's main court in Austria, on Monday

A right-wing Austrian author was found guilty Monday of glorifying the Nazi era and sentenced to five years in prison. Appeals were lodged both by the defense lawyer of Gerd Honsik and by the public prosecutor, who found the sentence too mild.

Honsik, 67, was found guilty of "Wiederbetaetigung" - which means "re-engaging" in Nazi era beliefs. The crime is punishable by up to 20 years in prison. Honsik wrote a book, "Hitler Innocent?," in which he attempted to justify some Nazi-era crimes.

He was originally convicted of neo-Nazi activities in 1992 for writings that defended Adolf Hitler's Third Reich, but he fled to Spain, where authorities arrested him in October 2007 and subsequently extradited him. Between 1986 and 1989, Honsik published writings disputing that the Nazis killed millions of Jews at Auschwitz and other concentration camps during World War II.

Austrian authorities have said they suspect him of committing similar offenses since Austria enacted a landmark 1992 law making it a crime to deny the Holocaust or promote Nazi propaganda.

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Thoughts?

[S.O.I]

a week in the pillary would surely have been enough?:D

no i mean seriously, there is something called free speech and it should propably be respected even tho the guy is a nut (and that should propably also count for something)

maybe a mental hospital.. sending him to "the gulags" is surely going to get a lot of bad publicity.

[Killfacer]

He's a dick but 5 years seems brutal.

[Holden Caulfield]

a week in the pillary would surely have been enough?:D

no i mean seriously, there is something called free speech and it should propably be respected even tho the guy is a nut (and that should propably also count for something)

maybe a mental hospital.. sending him to "the gulags" is surely going to get a lot of bad publicity.

There is also a thing called No Platform, which trumps freedom of Speech


He's a dick but 5 years seems brutal.

But yeah anyhoo, the state giving him a 5 year sentence for a book is harsh, and something we should have concern about. Any measures they use on the left (Bakunin got 8 years, Marx was exiled, Trotsky was in and out of Tsarist jails etc).

[Rusty Shackleford]

i think this is a failure of freedom of speech. the guy is an asshole like others said, i'd rather him be left to the dogs of society than to have the state protect his ass and feed him for 5 years at the people of austria's expense.

Like holden said about this being used on leftists as well. people blame communism for a forcing of mediocraty on people (which i dont agree with) yet the state takes out any chance of any extreme or far to one side belief. leaving us with mediocre pro cappie shyte. im not condoning or being sympathetic to fascist/nazi ideals, but they still have a right to speak... as long as they dont act on their fascist ideals

[Holden Caulfield]

Fascist should not be afforded the right to organise, or to promote their ideals.
But this should come from the working class not the state.

I repeat, Freedom of Speech does not apply to fascists!

[Rusty Shackleford]

i agree that they should not be able to do it, but when this society outlaws one form of extremism, the other side is next to go. after that, everyone becomes a centrist. and nothing fucking changes. more power to the state is what comes from that.

this is rather touchy because fascists are utter assholes that shouldn't even really exist, but as human beings, their thoughts should still be able to be expressed to an extent. and if its not something that one likes, well hell, get a group and kick their asses or something. just dont let the state censor shit, let the people do it.

[Holden Caulfield]

I agree with you mate, the people should censor them not the state, but to argue about his freedom of speech without making it explicitly you mean from the state then you are likely to be picked up about it.

Your argument isnt fascists should have 'freedom of speech' it is that the state shouldn't be given opressive powers, but you didnt make it clear enough for idiots like me to pick up on at first :s

[Rusty Shackleford]

I agree with you mate, the people should censor them not the state, but to argue about his freedom of speech without making it explicitly you mean from the state then you are likely to be picked up about it.

Your argument isnt fascists should have 'freedom of speech' it is that the state shouldn't be given opressive powers, but you didnt make it clear enough for idiots like me to pick up on at first :s

haha yeah i cold have gone about that in a better way. :lol:
i know that even though they wont be censored by the gov't, someone will call Antifa or similar groups to come crash the book signing ^_^

[Antifa_at]

a week in the pillary would surely have been enough?:D

no i mean seriously, there is something called free speech and it should propably be respected even tho the guy is a nut (and that should propably also count for something)

maybe a mental hospital.. sending him to "the gulags" is surely going to get a lot of bad publicity.

I agree that this is not necessarily the best way to fight fascism. But there's a problem with with applying free speech to nazis: you have to strike a balance between allowing death threats/avocating violence and unnecessary censorship. Can you always distinguish between lunatic far-right writers and violent far-right readers?

And this is Austria. The far-right is on or near power, and mainstream Austrian society didn't move on as well as Germany's.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

But yeah anyhoo, the state giving him a 5 year sentence for a book is harsh, and something we should have concern about. Any measures they use on the left (Bakunin got 8 years, Marx was exiled, Trotsky was in and out of Tsarist jails etc).

Well, yeah, but you're comparing the German Empire and feudal Russia to a modern bourgeois democracy. And in that, freedom of speech to not be locked up for years and years for having a dissenting opinion should be considered customary.


I actually kind of take these sentencings as an insult to the people of the country doing the sentencing. If you say that a man should go to jail because of neo-nazi views then you are saying that the spread of neo-nazi views is a threat in and of itself. Not neo-nazi actions, which the OP doesn't mention, but simply the views.

You're saying people are too stupid to realize how horrible Nazism was and that, if neo-nazis are allowed to walk around and publish their bullshit, Nazism could become the dominant political system once again.

Or you're just punishing the dude for his ideas and that is disgusting.

[Melbourne Lefty]

Holocaust denial should be legal.

It should be open to all for ridicule.

[communard resolution]

Is it not somewhat idealist to assume that exposure to fascist ideas will inevitably turn people into fascists?

[Holden Caulfield]

Well, yeah, but you're comparing the German Empire and feudal Russia to a modern bourgeois democracy. And in that, freedom of speech to not be locked up for years and years for having a dissenting opinion should be considered customary.

Allow me to break you out of your first world bubble, go talk to Devrim about political opression, not long ago in Turkey being part of a communist party was likely to have you opressed. in Russia the left wing have been under state attack and non state attacks that the state has 'allowed'. In Israel you can and will be locked up for being a 'conscious objector', in America the Patriot Act is opressive. FFS Galloway was not allowed into Canada for another example. Look at protestors being killed an beaten all over the world, look at union organisers being fired as in the UK or killed as in Columbia. Go talk to Prarie Fire about having the police follow her and take photos to keep tabs on her.

Dissenting Political opinions are tolerated because capitalism has been in acendency so there was no 'major' threat from the left, if you allow the state to have such draconian powers they will use them against us in time.



I actually kind of take these sentencings as an insult to the people of the country doing the sentencing. If you say that a man should go to jail because of neo-nazi views then you are saying that the spread of neo-nazi views is a threat in and of itself. Not neo-nazi actions, which the OP doesn't mention, but simply the views.

Personally I dont think the state should have sent him away for 5 years, but I dont think Nazis should be free to push their views which are the fuel for their actions. Nazis should be fought by the organised sections of the working class (such as antifa or local anti-fascist groups) because they spread division among us, they create scapegoats distracting us from the class struggle, they spread prejudice against members of our own class & communities. We see class not race, therefore an insult to a black member of my class is an insult to me also.

Nazis can say what they want in their books however pressure from below on businesses that support them, shops that sell them, and those that propagate them should be applied to remove this cancer from our society.


You're saying people are too stupid to realize how horrible Nazism was and that, if neo-nazis are allowed to walk around and publish their bullshit, Nazism could become the dominant political system once again.
You clearly don't understand the role of fascism (please dont call them nazis as some general term). It will grow in times of capitalist crisis, and i don't think people are too stupid I think they are misled by politicians, lied to by the media and made desperate by the capitalist system. Regardless of this I do not want prejudices against homosexuals, ethnic minorities, or anthing that will offend & divide the working class to be freely distributed in my society.


Or you're just punishing the dude for his ideas and that is disgusting.
He can think what ever the fuck he wants, as soon as he tried to organise, propagandise prejudices, etc is when I have a problem.

Fascism is the reserve army of capitalism, if you believe in a political revolution then you must be aware combatting counter-revolutionary forces is key.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Allow me to break you out of your first world bubble, go talk to Devrim about political opression, not long ago in Turkey being part of a communist party was likely to have you opressed. in Russia the left wing have been under state attack and non state attacks that the state has 'allowed'. In Israel you can and will be locked up for being a 'conscious objector', in America the Patriot Act is opressive. FFS Galloway was not allowed into Canada for another example. Look at protestors being killed an beaten all over the world, look at union organisers being fired as in the UK or killed as in Columbia. Go talk to Prarie Fire about having the police follow her and take photos to keep tabs on her.

Umm...ok. Well we are talking about a wealthy example of bourgeois democracy, so I would expect some level of free speech without jailtime.

Turkey, where it was illegal for years to simply speak Kurdish, and Russia are not examplary models of bourgeois democracy. The Patriot Act makes it easier for the government to track coke dealers, but to compare the US to Russia, at any point after 1900 at least, is ridiculous.


Personally I dont think the state should have sent him away for 5 years, but I dont think Nazis should be free to push their views which are the fuel for their actions. Nazis should be fought by the organised sections of the working class (such as antifa or local anti-fascist groups) because they spread division among us, they create scapegoats distracting us from the class struggle, they spread prejudice against members of our own class & communities. We see class not race, therefore an insult to a black member of my class is an insult to me also.

What are you suggesting?

That people are unable to form their own opinion, and that if a fascist comes along and tell them to blame the black man they're going to listen?

Racism becomes popular because of socioeconomic conditions. It doesn't become popular simply because some right-winger writes a book or gives a speech, and to blame such as the cause is a hollow victory.

Fascists become popular when they speak what is already on the countries mind, they don't just create hate across large swath's of society. For example, the Nazis were a little nothing party until the Depression.


Nazis can say what they want in their books however pressure from below on businesses that support them, shops that sell them, and those that propagate them should be applied to remove this cancer from our society.


But according to the Austrian court, Neo-Nazis can't say what they want in their own books.


You clearly don't understand the role of fascism (please dont call them nazis as some general term). It will grow in times of capitalist crisis, and i don't think people are too stupid I think they are misled by politicians, lied to by the media and made desperate by the capitalist system. Regardless of this I do not want prejudices against homosexuals, ethnic minorities, or anthing that will offend & divide the working class to be freely distributed in my society.

Neither do I. But there is a difference between punishing those who commit acts of hatred against those groups, and punishing those who suggest prejudices against those groups.

I honestly had no problem with the Aryan Nations, for example, until some of their followers killed a Native American woman. Then the page is turned, word has gone to deed, and they need to be removed from society.

On the side, though, if the people of a country overwhelmingly want fascism then they'll get it.

There is a memorable Hitler quote, when he was banning the Social Democrats (along with all other parties). The speaker gave a long winded sermon on how this was the end of the virtues of democracy, and Hitler said something like,

Pity you didn't see the virtue when you were trying to ban us.


He can think what ever the fuck he wants, as soon as he tried to organise, propagandise prejudices, etc is when I have a problem.

Fascism is the reserve army of capitalism, if you believe in a political revolution then you must be aware combatting counter-revolutionary forces is key.

But banning counter-revolutionary books is counter-revolutionary.

[Holden Caulfield]

Umm...ok. Well we are talking about a wealthy example of bourgeois democracy, so I would expect some level of free speech without jailtime.

Turkey, where it was illegal for years to simply speak Kurdish, and Russia are not examplary models of bourgeois democracy. The Patriot Act makes it easier for the government to track coke dealers, but to compare the US to Russia, at any point after 1900 at least, is ridiculous.

So basically your point is capitalist bourgeois 'democracies' are good things?
What is an examplary model of a bourgeois government?
As for the patriot act yes it does, it also allows the state to lock people up for what they think, keep tabs on their population and opress the working class like never before. Is the USA your examplary example of a bourgeois democracy? Because its citizens are lulled to sleep for the most part and so it is free to opress 'little brown people' lock them away without trial,charge or even a conviction at the end of it... The CIA actions abroad don't seem to be as opressive as those of the NKVD in Stalinist Russia? The only difference is American will more than likely unload them to allies, broken men, under opressive puppet states than lock them aways themselves.

As for the USA vs post 1900 Russia, I suggest you read a history book, in the 1950's the USA had televised show trials for suspected communists in the media industry, people where then locked up, fired, and denied a way to carry on their trade. This was because they said the 'reds' were trying to pollute American minds subliminally. True Russia was an opressive state, but the people of states affected by the US 'United Fruit Company or the people of South East Asian, the middle east, whereever would hardly tell you the US was not an opressive state, or that it was 'an examplary model of a bourgeois government'.



That people are unable to form their own opinion, and that if a fascist comes along and tell them to blame the black man they're going to listen?

Racism becomes popular because of socioeconomic conditions. It doesn't become popular simply because some right-winger writes a book or gives a speech, and to blame such as the cause is a hollow victory.

Fascists become popular when they speak what is already on the countries mind, they don't just create hate across large swath's of society. For example, the Nazis were a little nothing party until the Depression.


I'm suggesting that people can be mislead, I'm suggesting that people who have been broken down by the capitalist state and bombarded with racist propaganda from the right wing media will be receptive to people who are seemingly answering their calls with 'common sense answers'. Its makes sense that immigration causes all your problems, of course they are stealing your jobs and benafit, it is obvious to alot of people. However this is not correct, it distracts people from the real class issues that underlie what they care about.

If the right are allowed to freely organise then more and more people will be sucked into their web, these people are not stupid anymore than the people who vote for Obama and think their lives will improve are stupid. However fascism, unlike conservative bourgeois politics, is purposely divisive, its role is to divide the working class so as to weaken it. To fight the class struggle against the bourgeois state we must also fight the spread of fascism. If you allowed the seeds to be sown weeds will start to take hold, existing prejudices will be played on and society will align along false racial lines not real class lines.

The Nazis, and fascists in general, do not grow simply because of the depression or economic crisis, they grown because in times of crisis in capitalism the left grows and class consciousness becomes raised. A untied working class is revolutionary and so the fascists are agents of the bourgeois (not as part of a conspiracy might i add) as they divide and weaken us. The Kornilov Coup in Russia came at a time of left wing power and was defeated paving the way for a sucessful revolution, the Nazis in Germany grew in a time of left wing power, the Nazis won and a fascist regime was created to finish the counterrevolution.

Might I add that that Kornilov, Mussolini, Hitler, Franco and all fascist dictators have been given the support of the established political elite, big business and the lofty heights of the social hierarchy. Nick Griffin is a millionaire land ower. This disproves you points.



But according to the Austrian court, Neo-Nazis can't say what they want in their own books.

And? How do the actions of the Austrian bourgeois state in anyway effect my views as a revolutionary communist and a militant antifascist? In London it is illegal to flag a taxi if you have bubonic plague. I don't have a say in the laws capitalist states make. Your statement has no point what-so-ever



I honestly had no problem with the Aryan Nations, for example, until some of their followers killed a Native American woman. Then the page is turned, word has gone to deed, and they need to be removed from society.
Then you are a fucking idiot then aren't you. Would you sit there happily in front of me while i told my mates you were scum, that you caused all my problems in life. Would you do something when I said you shouldnt be allowed in the same place as me? How abouts if i said i was going to kill you. If i bought a gun would you be worried? I still haven't done any deeds so you wouldnt care by your own logic. You would only worry when i pressed it to your head and pulled the trigger right?

You plan carrot seeds, in time you get carrots. You plant the seeds of hatred and prejudice in a society what do you think you will get given time? Things like the Soho bombings, things like BPP members stock piling nail bombs etc.

I'm not trying to say your stupid or anything mate, I seriously would love it if you can understand why you are wrong.

[Tseka]

It's very sad that he was punished for expressing his thoughts.

[Oktyabr]

It's very sad that he was punished for expressing his thoughts.

He'd probably want to send us to a concentration camp for being communists and anarchists.

Also, I'm sure tons of relatives of my family in Europe were murdered by the Nazis because:

1) Much of my family is of Slavic descent, a.k.a. Untermensch to the germans
2) Some of them were Jewish, a.k.a. Untermensch to the germans
3) Many of them were catholics, and Hitler hated catholics

Should we really give freedom of speech to someone willing to take others lives away for superficial reasons such as race?

I think a nice trip to the fine Gulags of Siberia would do this scumbag a favor.

[Holden Caulfield]

I think a nice trip to the fine Gulags of Siberia would do this scumbag a favor.

Yeah thats it fight one opressive state so we can form another one...
Can you read thru my posts and tell me what you think about them?

[Melbourne Lefty]

Is it not somewhat idealist to assume that exposure to fascist ideas will inevitably turn people into fascists?


Holocaust denial? one of the only reasons it is believed is because it is cracked down on so much [we MUST be right if they try so hard to stop us speaking] pull it out in the light and it would simply be laughed at, the theories they put foward can be disproven while there are still survivors around.

Wait until all the hard evidence that can be reviewed starts to fade away or pass wawy and holocaust denial might last forever. Thanks to its spread into islamic countries it might be too late already.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

So basically your point is capitalist bourgeois 'democracies' are good things?.....As for the patriot act yes it does, it also allows the state to lock people up for what they think, keep tabs on their population and opress the working class like never before. Is the USA your examplary example of a bourgeois democracy? Because its citizens are lulled to sleep for the most part and so it is free to opress 'little brown people' lock them away without trial,charge or even a conviction at the end of it... The CIA actions abroad don't seem to be as opressive as those of the NKVD in Stalinist Russia? The only difference is American will more than likely unload them to allies, broken men, under opressive puppet states than lock them aways themselves.

Compared to the German/Russian Empires?

Certainly. Not to justify the actions of the US abroad, however, compared to the actions of the aforementioned German or Britsh Empires in their adventures abroad the CIA pales in comparison (not to leave out the French).

Is there a difference today in the western states even though Imperialism still exists? Yes, absolutely there is. And comparing the US, even the actions at Gitmo (in which detainees are released to play ping-pong while the Saudi government gives them free cars and housing, by the way) to mother Russia is just ridiculous. Sorry. Comparing the US actions in Afghanistan to the Soviet actions there alone is a stretch. In comparing the numbers of civilians killed it's not even close.


As for the USA vs post 1900 Russia, I suggest you read a history book, in the 1950's the USA had televised show trials for suspected communists in the media industry, people where then locked up, fired, and denied a way to carry on their trade. This was because they said the 'reds' were trying to pollute American minds subliminally. True Russia was an opressive state, but the people of states affected by the US 'United Fruit Company or the people of South East Asian, the middle east, whereever would hardly tell you the US was not an opressive state, or that it was 'an examplary model of a bourgeois government'.Well, certainly one could make the comparison between McCarthy having some celebrities blacklisted and the millions of people killed by the NKVD, I suppose.

We were talking about the actions within the US and within Russia, by the way. I didn't bring up the Soviet raping their war through Germany, as that is clearly besides the point.


I'm suggesting that people can be mislead, I'm suggesting that people who have been broken down by the capitalist state and bombarded with racist propaganda from the right wing media will be receptive to people who are seemingly answering their calls with 'common sense answers'. Its makes sense that immigration causes all your problems, of course they are stealing your jobs and benafit, it is obvious to alot of people. However this is not correct, it distracts people from the real class issues that underlie what they care about. So arrest the people who suggest these things. In fact, fuck that.

Just nail 'em to a cross.


If the right are allowed to freely organise then more and more people will be sucked into their web, these people are not stupid anymore than the people who vote for Obama and think their lives will improve are stupid. However fascism, unlike conservative bourgeois politics, is purposely divisive, its role is to divide the working class so as to weaken it. To fight the class struggle against the bourgeois state we must also fight the spread of fascism. If you allowed the seeds to be sown weeds will start to take hold, existing prejudices will be played on and society will align along false racial lines not real class lines.If they are allowed to 'freely organize?'

The answer to brown shirts ain't fucking brown shirts! Sure, I can see defense against fascists but trying to eradicate the right-wing from society is simply not going to work.

People are going to come to their own conclusions about what the cause of their misfortune is. Trying to remove the people, let alone beat them down in the street, isn't going to solve the issue in any meaningful way.

Except by making them appear to be the oppressed minority who the socialist state (which turns a blind eye) is holding down...must be some collusion there. Not to mention the state has completely failed us, makes sense they would want to see the people with different ideas beaten and removed from speaking....


Might I add that that Kornilov, Mussolini, Hitler, Franco and all fascist dictators have been given the support of the established political elite, big business and the lofty heights of the social hierarchy. Nick Griffin is a millionaire land ower. This disproves you points.Um, no.

Fascism isn't some backroom cabal in a smoke filled room. It isn't a meeting between industrialists at a fundraiser.

It's a mass movement. Sure, it can be led by wealthy people. But it is built by the poor.


And? How do the actions of the Austrian bourgeois state in anyway effect my views as a revolutionary communist and a militant antifascist? In London it is illegal to flag a taxi if you have bubonic plague. I don't have a say in the laws capitalist states make. Your statement has no point what-so-everOh, so you believe a neo-Nazi should be allowed to publish his works? I was mistaken in that, thought you were in agreement with the court to stop him from 'propogandanising prejudices'

Can he have a book signing, or will you be there to beat him over the head?

Were exactly do you draw the line here?


Then you are a fucking idiot then aren't you. Would you sit there happily in front of me while i told my mates you were scum, that you caused all my problems in life. Would you do something when I said you shouldnt be allowed in the same place as me? How abouts if i said i was going to kill you. If i bought a gun would you be worried? I still haven't done any deeds so you wouldnt care by your own logic. You would only worry when i pressed it to your head and pulled the trigger right?
What are you talking about?

Telling someone you are going to kill them and grabbing a gun is a deed. Here in the states if you pull a gun on someone and tell them you are going to kill them you will most likely be spending some time in jail.


You plan carrot seeds, in time you get carrots. You plant the seeds of hatred and prejudice in a society what do you think you will get given time? Things like the Soho bombings, things like BPP members stock piling nail bombs etc.Then those idividuals should be locked up for making dangerous explosives....and to be honest, I'm glad the Patriot Act allows the government to keep a very close eye on those kind of groups, as it now feels right-wing terrorism may be a major threat.

But really, what kind of explanation is this?

This could be used to say,

You plan carrot seeds, in time you get carrots. You plant the seeds of hatred and prejudice in a society what do you think you will get given time? Things like the London bombings, things like Islamists stock piling nail bombs etc.


I'm not trying to say your stupid or anything mate, I seriously would love it if you can understand why you are wrong.Likewise.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Wait until all the hard evidence that can be reviewed starts to fade away or pass wawy and holocaust denial might last forever. Thanks to its spread into islamic countries it might be too late already.

I think that's a little different.

I'd call it a load of bullshit if every time someone said the words "Remember the Gas Chambers!!!" it really meant "Here comes another wave of F-15s to level your city"

[Melbourne Lefty]

Well, certainly one could make the comparison between McCarthy having some celebrities blacklisted and the millions of people killed by the NKVD, I suppose.


Yup. The US has done a lot of bad things and has a dispicable economic system that penalises those at the bottom and rewards those at the top.

But in the end comparing the HUAC hearings and the "reds under the bed" blacklists to the gulags is an abomination.

I consider myself a revolutionary left winger, but I see no reason to be an apologist for Stalinism and the weaker forms of dictatorship that came after him.

[Holden Caulfield]

But in the end comparing the HUAC hearings and the "reds under the bed" blacklists to the gulags is an abomination.

I consider myself a revolutionary left winger, but I see no reason to be an apologist for Stalinism and the weaker forms of dictatorship that came after him

That was one example, the least opressive example I gave, can you shrug off the actions of the United Fruit Company in Central America, or the modern day Columbian Death squads trained by the CIA?
I'm not defending Stalin or Stalinism, as a bisexual trotskyist I feel I would be among the first to be a victim of such a state, of course I do not defend them.
But the USA has committed terrible crimes, not domestically but around the globe, nations have been under the jackboot of American imperialism, puppet states have been set up by the USA. Israel, Iraq, Chile, etc etc. The USSR was terrible to but talk of the USSR to counter claims against the USA is the type of bullshit argument I would expect to find on Fox news not a forum for revolutionary leftist.

As for the holocaust denial thing, I think that count warrent its own thread, please start that one off, should it be censored by the state or not, I think you will find most on here would say no the state should not censor them, the people should.

Cultofabe:

Imperialism changes, the British, Belgian, French, German, Dutch, Portugese, Spanish Empires have blood on their hands, but so does America, why do you defend them? They have committed a genocide of a greater percentage of population that the Nazis killed European Jews. Look up their actions in proping up banana republics in Central and South America (the Banana Republic coming from the actions of the United Fruit Company i previously mentioned). The actions of the USA around the globe have been terrible, do some fucking research, ask on another forum of this board or whatever you are glossing over the history of your own nation. This nationalism is the same attitude that leads one to defend its own nation in times of war.

Do you seriously think America (in your false opinion) is less opressive by some virtue of being more 'civilised', 'moral' or something like this?

In Afghanistan the Soviets were far better than the Americans, not by much, i reject imperialism but they were this is undeniable. The Financial Times ran an article a while ago explaining that under the Soviets the taliban were 'well behaved' and that there was relative peace. I stress this, I do not give one flying fuck about the action if the USSR, but you are pulling arguments out of your arse that are based on pro-american propaganda and Rambo III by the looks of things.



So arrest the people who suggest these things. In fact, fuck that.

Just nail 'em to a cross.
I'm sorry i don't understand, you are arguing against the working class organising to stop the spread of fascist ideals on the grounds that this is an infringement of the rights of fascists and your argument is that they should be crucified instead?:confused:



The answer to brown shirts ain't fucking brown shirts! Sure, I can see defense against fascists but trying to eradicate the right-wing from society is simply not going to work.

People are going to come to their own conclusions about what the cause of their misfortune is. Trying to remove the people, let alone beat them down in the street, isn't going to solve the issue in any meaningful way.

Except by making them appear to be the oppressed minority who the socialist state (which turns a blind eye) is holding down...must be some collusion there. Not to mention the state has completely failed us, makes sense they would want to see the people with different ideas beaten and removed from speaking....
The organised working class trying to defend its unity, the 'miniritiy groups within it, and our class based struggle is not the same as Stormtroopers who want to kill blacks. Read Malcom X, we will be comrades with any person who wants to be comrades with us, who wants unity, equality, liberty and these egalitartarian principles. We are not going to beat up everybody who thinks race is the issues over class, militant antifascism is not about that, if you read through this forum you will see that nobody supports this.

In times of revolution fascists have always been used to try and crush the labour movement, and so to remove this thread when it is in its infancy is prudent.

why are you talking about a socialist state? What socialist state would this be? A true socialist state would do what its people democratically decided.



Um, no.

Fascism isn't some backroom cabal in a smoke filled room. It isn't a meeting between industrialists at a fundraiser.

It's a mass movement. Sure, it can be led by wealthy people. But it is built by the poor.
I said that, if you are going to ignore wht I say and make up arguments I cannot be bothered to argue with you. What i was saying is that fascism is an ideology of the rich elite used to divide the working class, who appointed Hitler and Mussolini, who aided Franco, who supported Pinochet? Land owning aristocrats set up the KKK after the end of slavery to keep the white & black workings for realising they shared interests and revolting.

Its not a conspiracy, its just reaction to material circumstances. And of course the political movement is for the majority made of the working class, but so is every political party, we are the largest class. But fascism is not a working class ideology, look at the 'leaders' of the British SP for example, they take minimum wage and work for the people as 'worker representatives on a workers wage'. Now look at the leader of the BNP, he is part of the landed gentry. Fascism is a cancer injected into the working class to weaken it, not a revolutionary ideology that come from it.


Were exactly do you draw the line here?
I do not think his ideas should be spread, i do not control the state or the publishing firm though. I would do what I could to stop his ideas being propagated. I stand against everything that divides the working class from Islamists to Nazis both who propagate 'Racial/Holy War'.


Telling someone you are going to kill them and grabbing a gun is a deed. Here in the states if you pull a gun on someone and tell them you are going to kill them you will most likely be spending some time in jail.Do you not understand the logic i was showing you? If i do that then I should be stopped. If a fascist party talks of 'repatriating' people how do you think they willdo this. Do you think everybody who isn't white in this country will just leave their home because they are told to by the BNP? Or do you think they would be forced out either by racism in the community, opressive state measures, or other means. Think it through, this is what would happen if fascism ever got into any real power, and do it is our duty to kill the roots before the tree grows too strong for us.


Then those idividuals should be locked up for making dangerous explosives....and to be honest, I'm glad the Patriot Act allows the government to keep a very close eye on those kind of groups, as it now feels right-wing terrorism may be a major threat.

But really, what kind of explanation is this?

This could be used to say,

If you think individuals exist outside of the influence of external material factors then you are wrong, and this explains why all your arguments are wrong. You support opressive capitalist states and you fall for its propaganda. Now the state feels right wing terrorism is a threat, a while back it thought 'communism' was a threat Keep the people scared, all you need is a never ending war right? read 1984 its a good book.


You plan carrot seeds, in time you get carrots. You plant the seeds of hatred and prejudice in a society what do you think you will get given time? Things like the London bombings, things like Islamists stock piling nail bombs etcyeah. and?

Do you expect me to jump to the defence of Islamic terrorists because it would be PC or something?
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2398/2274602185_120fb34ca8.jpg?v=0

[Tseka]

He'd probably want to send us to a concentration camp for being communists and anarchists.

Also, I'm sure tons of relatives of my family in Europe were murdered by the Nazis because:

1) Much of my family is of Slavic descent, a.k.a. Untermensch to the germans
2) Some of them were Jewish, a.k.a. Untermensch to the germans
3) Many of them were catholics, and Hitler hated catholics

Should we really give freedom of speech to someone willing to take others lives away for superficial reasons such as race?

I think a nice trip to the fine Gulags of Siberia would do this scumbag a favor.

It doesn't matter, he didn't kill anyone, he just holds certain beliefs that are alienates him from the rest of us.

[Dimentio]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_XLxL5xIl-m8/SfZQisc0fAI/AAAAAAAAB6c/pdbqdFf_j9s/s320/GerdHonsik.jpeg (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_XLxL5xIl-m8/SfZQisc0fAI/AAAAAAAAB6c/pdbqdFf_j9s/s1600-h/GerdHonsik.jpeg)
Austrian Gerd Honsik is led to the courtroom
in Vienna's main court in Austria, on Monday

A right-wing Austrian author was found guilty Monday of glorifying the Nazi era and sentenced to five years in prison. Appeals were lodged both by the defense lawyer of Gerd Honsik and by the public prosecutor, who found the sentence too mild.

Honsik, 67, was found guilty of "Wiederbetaetigung" - which means "re-engaging" in Nazi era beliefs. The crime is punishable by up to 20 years in prison. Honsik wrote a book, "Hitler Innocent?," in which he attempted to justify some Nazi-era crimes.

He was originally convicted of neo-Nazi activities in 1992 for writings that defended Adolf Hitler's Third Reich, but he fled to Spain, where authorities arrested him in October 2007 and subsequently extradited him. Between 1986 and 1989, Honsik published writings disputing that the Nazis killed millions of Jews at Auschwitz and other concentration camps during World War II.

Austrian authorities have said they suspect him of committing similar offenses since Austria enacted a landmark 1992 law making it a crime to deny the Holocaust or promote Nazi propaganda.

--------------------------------------------------
Thoughts?

I think the power to punish people because of their opinions is too dangerous a tool to be entrusted to a bourgeois state. Just look at the Czech Republic and Poland. They are attacking leftists right now.

[Oktyabr]

It doesn't matter, he didn't kill anyone, he just holds certain beliefs that are alienates him from the rest of us.

But all the same, he is defending a group of people who murdered without a thought across dozens of countries. It is simply unacceptable.

People criticize communists such as myself for supporting the murder of innocent Russians in the Soviet Union under Stalin, but they have to remember that not all communists agree with Stalin's ideas and policies.

It's not that way with Nazis.

You can't have a Nazi who doesn't like Hitler or agree with his policies, i.e., murdering Jews and other "inferior subhumans" (it hurts just typing it), and killing people simply because of their family history. All people who support the Nazi regime support the murder of innocent people for foolish "reasons".

[Oktyabr]

I think the power to punish people because of their opinions is too dangerous a tool to be entrusted to a bourgeois state. Just look at the Czech Republic and Poland. They are attacking leftists right now.

That is true. The people of Austria should put him on trial themselves, and see what to make of him. However, there is a large difference between imprisoning communists for freedom of speech, and imprisoning nazis for freedom of speech.

[Tseka]

But all the same, he is defending a group of people who murdered without a thought across dozens of countries. It is simply unacceptable.

People criticize communists such as myself for supporting the murder of innocent Russians in the Soviet Union under Stalin, but they have to remember that not all communists agree with Stalin's ideas and policies.

It's not that way with Nazis.

You can't have a Nazi who doesn't like Hitler or agree with his policies, i.e., murdering Jews and other "inferior subhumans" (it hurts just typing it), and killing people simply because of their family history. All people who support the Nazi regime support the murder of innocent people for foolish "reasons".

If we as a society, don't defend people with different opinions from the Government, then who will defend our opinions?

[communard resolution]

You can't have a Nazi who doesn't like Hitler or agree with his policies

That's not true. There are Nazis who aren't Hitlerites and who do not agree with some of Hitler's policies. They are the type of fascists who fool themselves into thinking they are socialists and whose political role models were purged very soon after Hilter rose to power.


All people who support the Nazi regime support the murder of innocent people for foolish "reasons".Not true. Many Nazis believe this never happened, just like there are many people who believe in UFOs. But they will always support some barbaric form of ethnic discrimination.

[Vanguard1917]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_XLxL5xIl-m8/SfZQisc0fAI/AAAAAAAAB6c/pdbqdFf_j9s/s320/GerdHonsik.jpeg (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_XLxL5xIl-m8/SfZQisc0fAI/AAAAAAAAB6c/pdbqdFf_j9s/s1600-h/GerdHonsik.jpeg)



Austrian Gerd Honsik is led to the courtroom
in Vienna's main court in Austria, on Monday

A right-wing Austrian author was found guilty Monday of glorifying the Nazi era and sentenced to five years in prison. Appeals were lodged both by the defense lawyer of Gerd Honsik and by the public prosecutor, who found the sentence too mild.

Honsik, 67, was found guilty of "Wiederbetaetigung" - which means "re-engaging" in Nazi era beliefs. The crime is punishable by up to 20 years in prison. Honsik wrote a book, "Hitler Innocent?," in which he attempted to justify some Nazi-era crimes.

He was originally convicted of neo-Nazi activities in 1992 for writings that defended Adolf Hitler's Third Reich, but he fled to Spain, where authorities arrested him in October 2007 and subsequently extradited him. Between 1986 and 1989, Honsik published writings disputing that the Nazis killed millions of Jews at Auschwitz and other concentration camps during World War II.

Austrian authorities have said they suspect him of committing similar offenses since Austria enacted a landmark 1992 law making it a crime to deny the Holocaust or promote Nazi propaganda.

--------------------------------------------------
Thoughts?

I think the ruling is an utter disgrace and should be condemned by all those who call themselves socialists.

[Oktyabr]

Not true. Many Nazis believe this never happened, just like there are many people who believe in UFOs. But they will always support some barbaric form of ethnic discrimination.

Yet it still happened. You can support thing without even realizing that you do. In effect, they are supporting it.

[Black Dagger]

If we as a society, don't defend people with different opinions from the Government, then who will defend our opinions?

Well not Nazi scum like this guy, that's for sure.

To answer your question, we will - not 'society' (which necessarily includes people like this author).

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

[QUOTE]
Cultofabe:

Imperialism changes, the British, Belgian, French, German, Dutch, Portugese, Spanish Empires have blood on their hands, but so does America, why do you defend them? They have committed a genocide of a greater percentage of population that the Nazis killed European Jews. Look up their actions in proping up banana republics in Central and South America (the Banana Republic coming from the actions of the United Fruit Company i previously mentioned). The actions of the USA around the globe have been terrible, do some fucking research, ask on another forum of this board or whatever you are glossing over the history of your own nation. This nationalism is the same attitude that leads one to defend its own nation in times of war.

Do you seriously think America (in your false opinion) is less opressive by some virtue of being more 'civilised', 'moral' or something like this?

In Afghanistan the Soviets were far better than the Americans, not by much, i reject imperialism but they were this is undeniable. The Financial Times ran an article a while ago explaining that under the Soviets the taliban were 'well behaved' and that there was relative peace. I stress this, I do not give one flying fuck about the action if the USSR, but you are pulling arguments out of your arse that are based on pro-american propaganda and Rambo III by the looks of things.

We were talking specifically about the US vs Russia after 1900. Not the satellite states of those to respective nations, but those themselves. You brought up actions abroad, which has nothing to do with life in those countries themselves.

And how were the Taliban well behaved, I don't get that? There was a war between the Soviets and the Taliban.


I'm sorry i don't understand, you are arguing against the working class organising to stop the spread of fascist ideals on the grounds that this is an infringement of the rights of fascists and your argument is that they should be crucified instead?:confused:

I'm saying that this anti-fa nonsense is making martyrs out of them.


In times of revolution fascists have always been used to try and crush the labour movement, and so to remove this thread when it is in its infancy is prudent.

Why do you have this notion that if you beat up fascists, like they're weeds, that the ideas will not become popular when the socioeconomic conditions arise?


why are you talking about a socialist state? What socialist state would this be? A true socialist state would do what its people democratically decided.

A socialist state through the eyes of people who have been let down and see people who are beating up those who are questioning our modern virtues.


I said that, if you are going to ignore wht I say and make up arguments I cannot be bothered to argue with you. What i was saying is that fascism is an ideology of the rich elite used to divide the working class, who appointed Hitler and Mussolini, who aided Franco, who supported Pinochet? Land owning aristocrats set up the KKK after the end of slavery to keep the white & black workings for realising they shared interests and revolting.

The PEOPLE chose Hitler and Mussolini (Franco is obviously a little different from those two). Hitler had a land redistribution program against the Junkers, for example, and his Keynsian war-machine economics were a far cry from ultra-right libertarian no taxes on the wealthy thinking.

Fascism is a populist movement. The KKK was a populist movement. It may have benefited the very wealthy the most, but its backbone and its blood was the ignorant poor man who was alienated by northern carpetbaggers.


Its not a conspiracy, its just reaction to material circumstances. And of course the political movement is for the majority made of the working class, but so is every political party, we are the largest class. But fascism is not a working class ideology, look at the 'leaders' of the British SP for example, they take minimum wage and work for the people as 'worker representatives on a workers wage'. Now look at the leader of the BNP, he is part of the landed gentry. Fascism is a cancer injected into the working class to weaken it, not a revolutionary ideology that come from it.


Point being that as long as fascism is the goal of the uber-rich alone it is a wet dream for extremists. The poor are the ones who actually believe the racist mumbo jumbo and they are the ones who become the brown and black shirts. They are the ones who are the foot soldiers for the ideology, not the wealthy.


I do not think his ideas should be spread, i do not control the state or the publishing firm though. I would do what I could to stop his ideas being propagated. I stand against everything that divides the working class from Islamists to Nazis both who propagate 'Racial/Holy War'.

Then you are against freedom of speech, simple enough.


Do you not understand the logic i was showing you? If i do that then I should be stopped. If a fascist party talks of 'repatriating' people how do you think they willdo this. Do you think everybody who isn't white in this country will just leave their home because they are told to by the BNP? Or do you think they would be forced out either by racism in the community, opressive state measures, or other means. Think it through, this is what would happen if fascism ever got into any real power, and do it is our duty to kill the roots before the tree grows too strong for us.

We're not talking about what would happen if fascism comes to power.

We're talking about how futile it is to think beating up a small minority of fascists is towards stopping fascism.

As I said earlier, if you believe that if fascists are allowed to spread their garbage that fascism will become popular, then you are calling the populace stupid.


If you think individuals exist outside of the influence of external material factors then you are wrong, and this explains why all your arguments are wrong. You support opressive capitalist states and you fall for its propaganda. Now the state feels right wing terrorism is a threat, a while back it thought 'communism' was a threat Keep the people scared, all you need is a never ending war right? read 1984 its a good book.

Um, yeah. Except there actually is a threat of right-wing terrorism, like the Oklahome City bombings. The govt should keep a close eye on those groups.

And not to defend the US, but we really are jus playing catch-up to the anti-terrorism laws which have been commonplace in Europe for decades.


yeah. and?

Do you expect me to jump to the defence of Islamic terrorists because it would be PC or something?


You miss the point.

You say "fascists should be banned, look at these examples of violent fascists"

Someone could say 'muslims should be banned, look at these examples of violent muslims'

[Holden Caulfield]

We were talking specifically about the US vs Russia after 1900. Not the satellite states of those to respective nations, but those themselves. You brought up actions abroad, which has nothing to do with life in those countries themselves.

And how were the Taliban well behaved, I don't get that? There was a war between the Soviets and the Taliban.
Soviets vs the CIA armed and trained Mujahideen.

You are talking of the actions of states are we? you think it is wrong for dictatorships to opress their own people but that it is okay for so called democracies to opress other people? Stop moving the goal posts, you want to talk of examplary capitalist states then pick one and make your case. We are talking about opressive states, to think that its okay to opress 'lesser' nations then you need to reasses your politics as this is hardly internationalist thinking.


Why do you have this notion that if you beat up fascists, like they're weeds, that the ideas will not become popular when the socioeconomic conditions arise? I dont think beating up all fascists is a good tactic, I never have, I have never said that to you. You are making things up to match your argument. I feel that physical force should be exerted by the working class to stop fascists from organising, if they cannot get their message across they cannot build support. In a time of revolution the situation is much like that of a ball of a knife edge, the centre (conventional capitalist) ground falls away, and it can go either way either to the left and for revolution, or to the right, to fascism and counter revolution. To combat fascism now will make our job easier later.


A socialist state through the eyes of people who have been let down and see people who are beating up those who are questioning our modern virtues.Does this even make sense? What socialist state are you on about? You just started to talk about a socialist state out of nowhere, I have literally no idea what you are on about mate.


The PEOPLE chose Hitler and Mussolini
Explain this one to me, because history taught me that Hitler was appointed by Hindenburg and Mussolini by King Victor Emmanuel III. Both after the failure of 'normal' capitalist governments in time of econmic crisis and in the face of left wing revolutionary dissent.


The KKK was a populist movement.
Nope again, it was created by wealthy land owners who feared black/white unity and so pushed propaganda, fear and manipulation to scare the populace into false 'racial unity'.

This is what fascism is, class collaboration, the workers are manipulated to feel they have the same interests as their white bosses rather than their black (or whatever) co-workers. So the working class is weakened, and the white populace who have embraced fascism will defend the capitalist state.

As for your stuff on poor people becoming the foot soldiers of fascism, I know, as i said fascism aligns the people along racial lines and so the poor will defend the same state that opresses them out of a propagated fear of what is 'outside'. The working class are the majority of any political movement anyways, another irrelevant point.


Then you are against freedom of speech, simple enough.
He can say what he wants, Im not the thought police, but if he propagates divisive fascism then he should be stopped. If i saw somebody in the street calling for blacks to be sent home, gays to be alienated, etc then i would stop them as far as i could, why should i tolerate it in an organised way?


As I said earlier, if you believe that if fascists are allowed to spread their garbage that fascism will become popular, then you are calling the populace stupid.
Nope, Gullibility is the most forgivble of vices according to Marx.
Again i will tell you what i think can you fucking read it this time professor Abe: I feel the working class are indoctrinated with outdated imperialist dogma perpetuated by the rightwing capitalist press, of course some reject this, the ones who dont are not stupid they are manipulated. They are doing what they (wrongly) think is right, it is out job to stop our class from being divided, manipulated and weakened. We must put our own ideas across, and for the sake of all in the community we must stop any member (black, gay, jew, whatever) from being victimised. An injury to one is an injury to all.


And not to defend the US, but we really are jus playing catch-up to the anti-terrorism laws which have been commonplace in Europe for decades.
Oh well if other capitalist states are just as opressive i guess thats okay then, silly me.


You say "fascists should be banned, look at these examples of violent fascists"

Someone could say 'muslims should be banned, look at these examples of violent muslims' Im not a fan of religion to be frank, i wouldnt ban it though, religion can be interpreted anyway people want. Islamic extremeism is something that should not be tolerated, I would not tarnish all Islam due to the actions of a small minority who interpret the Qu'ran to justify their actions. Fascisms' core aspects are division, racial/national unity, reaction, class collaboration, counter-revolution.

You arguments are not based on fact, you are making baseless assertions, you are hopping about from argument to argument (you still havent told us of exemplary capitalist states, i hope you do tho) and you are starting to annoy me.