How to prove Iraq n Afganistan are wrong to a non-socialist

[punisa]

I'm equally against the military inavsionism (yes, it became an -ism) in the middle east as majority of you guys.

What arguments do you use to justify your claims?
Just yesterday I spoke to a guy over a beer who furiously defended US military intervention on these countries.
He gave me a looong "lecture" on how the extremists are evil and how they threat people and kill women etc.

I did try to explain that the existence of extremists was the direct consequence of the global powers playing a domination game over Middle East (US and USSR) and how many organizations like Talibans emerged from there.

This didn't give good results, he still believes his arguments were much superior to mine.
He is totally in belief that only western intervention can destroy religious fundamentalism and extremism.

How would you base your approach to such people?
Except avoiding them, which is probabbly the smartest thing to do :lol:

[Kamerat]

I would start by telling such people that you cant force democracy on people. The imperialist war in Iraq and Afghanistan is creating more extremists/fundamentalists/reactionaries because many people have lost their ability to make a living. So they turn to these extremists to fight of the invaders who have taken away what they had.

[Idealism]

I'm equally against the military inavsionism (yes, it became an -ism) in the middle east as majority of you guys.

What arguments do you use to justify your claims?
Just yesterday I spoke to a guy over a beer who furiously defended US military intervention on these countries.
He gave me a looong "lecture" on how the extremists are evil and how they threat people and kill women etc.

I did try to explain that the existence of extremists was the direct consequence of the global powers playing a domination game over Middle East (US and USSR) and how many organizations like Talibans emerged from there.

This didn't give good results, he still believes his arguments were much superior to mine.
He is totally in belief that only western intervention can destroy religious fundamentalism and extremism.

How would you base your approach to such people?
Except avoiding them, which is probabbly the smartest thing to do :lol:

Try agreeing with him, even if you dont, about the western intervention; but then try explaining how we the US is there, not because of a "higher purpose" but for oil and imperialism.

[punisa]

Try agreeing with him, even if you dont, about the western intervention; but then try explaining how we the US is there, not because of a "higher purpose" but for oil and imperialism.

Indeed, many people who I speak with are very aware of the fact that oil is the primary drive for the US in the region.
But then comes that awful word "still"

As in "US has invaded just for oil and will take it for themselves, still the people of those countries will be far better off now that the US troops are there"

What kind of ideology is this? I wouldn't be content with foreign soldiers in my country under any circumstances.

[LOLseph Stalin]

I doubt it would work, but you could talk about the people who are dying as a result of the fighting.

[el_chavista]

The problem is the Islamic fundamentalism. And as a matter of fact, some Islamic goverments are USA allies. So the invasion will change nothing about the ancient Sharia.

[mykittyhasaboner]

This type of argument is so thin it simply reeks of typical bourgeois ultra-nationalism.

"US has invaded just for oil and will take it for themselves, still the people of those countries will be far better off now that the US troops are there"Yeah, the most powerful military in the world coming in destroying and killing pretty much everything in sight, is real step up isn't it. But wait, these things were happening in these countries before the US invaded, and it usually involved the US (Iran-Iraq War, funding of the mujaheddin in Afghanistan, etc). So really its just more of the same, but on a larger more vicious scale.

[Sam_b]

The problem is not fundamentalist in origin at all.

Quite simply put (and i'm sorry this post isn't longer but the Champions League is on), would there have been these fundamentalists and attacks on the 'Western world' if there was never any imperialist intervention in the Middle East? Sounds like a damn good reason to withdraw the troops to me. I am aware you've already said this in argument, but the simple fact is that groups like the Taleban are growing because of the continued intervention, and crudely speaking the resistances in these countries are completely kicking the ass of the US, UK etc right now, especially in Afghanistan.