Anti-Fascists trying to claim back the British/English flag?

[bellyscratch]

Just wondering what people thought of this as a tactic to fight against groups like the BNP?

To me, I think its such a bad idea as I don't believe in nationality etc but I find it hard to justify to people who are 'proud' to be British

[Sam_b]

Personally I find it to be an entirely wrong idea. The use of 'claiming' a flag or national symbol goes against a key idea of the anti-racist movement: the discrimination on national boundries is wrong, as well as ethnicity, skin colour etc. By pinning ourselves to, for example, the Flag of St George we communicate that our only concern is:

a) The English population
b) Racism that exists within these particular national boundaries.

This is very much in opposition to one of our key priorites at this minute: the horrendous discrimination faced by asylum seekers and detained asylum seekers who overnight become nationless people. Not only would the reclaimation of the flag be entirely insulting (in my view) to the hundreds of different national, ethnic and cultural influences and practices we see in the UK today, but in certain ways it also appears to show a certain level of support for our countries immigration and asylum policy (which nobody needs explained to them on here, is racist and inhumane).

So no, I don't think its a good idea in the slightest.

[Dr Mindbender]

The union jack and st georges cross are and always were beourgioise. The working class can't 'reclaim' what was never theirs.

[mykittyhasaboner]

Those flags are fucking ugly. Aside from avoiding bourgeois connotations, its just poor taste. We don't need to reuse or reclaim any old stupid flag that only has countless crimes against humanity attached to it.

[Melbourne Lefty]

Interesting debate.

No we shouldnt, but what should be done about those people from the capitalist parties who do try to "reclaim" the St Georges flag and then say that its for everyone regardless of ethnicity?

What line would people here take on that?:confused:

[Holden Caulfield]

What line would people here take on that?It is the same flag they put before us when they sent working people of all ethnicities to go and die in their foreign wars.
It is the same flag they lay on our coffins when they sent us to our deaths.
It is the symbol they give us to make us think we are the same as them, when in reality it has been English people who have opressed our ancestors.

There is no need to get all high and mighty when explaining why we should not use national flags, but there are millions of reasons why we should not use them and its pretty easy to make them clear with out sounding like some intellectual arsehole.

I would like to add i've got an England football shirt and that isnt the same thing.

[communard resolution]

Those flags are fucking ugly. Aside from avoiding bourgeois connotations, its just poor taste. We don't need to reuse or reclaim any old stupid flag that only has countless crimes against humanity attached to it.

I disagree on ugly - the Union Jack is one of the best looking flags. But I agree it makes no sense for an internationalist movement to 'reclaim' a nationalist symbol.

What is your guys attitude towards the use of the Union Jack in pop culture (e.g. britpop, mods, punk, etc)? Or more broadly, do you think the Britpop movement had nationalist overtones?

[brigadista]

the cross of st george is a crusaders flag -

[disobey]

I disagree on ugly - the Union Jack is one of the best looking flags. But I agree it makes no sense for an internationalist movement to 'reclaim' a nationalist symbol.

It's not a bad flag. The colours go nice. Very complementary, but, I find it looks better on fire.


What is your guys attitude towards the use of the Union Jack in pop culture (e.g. britpop, mods, punk, etc)? Or more broadly, do you think the Britpop movement had nationalist overtones?

I don't think Britpop is/was particularly nationalist - I think it was more marketing people from record companies and the such trying to cash in on nationalism in the same way mainstream Punk did. Anything for a quick buck and all that.

[Melbourne Lefty]

I would like to add i've got an England football shirt and that isnt the same thing.


You evil fascist!:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[redSHARP]

well i guess it could win over popular support from the general public. that's always a good thing. but its a nationalist icon (in this case, the USA flag) and should not be considered true marxist/anarchist. We should use it as a facade in order to show the public we are "not communist radicals" (when we really are). we need to be able to show a different face to please the public.

[JohnnyC]

We should use it as a facade in order to show the public we are "not communist radicals" (when we really are). we need to be able to show a different face to please the public.
We shouldn't allow public to change us, we should change the public.No neutral person ever is going to support communism if we don't talk about it and hide it from him.We should instead concentrate on how to best explain our ideas to the workers and gain support for them.

[Dr Mindbender]

I went to see 'the wall' by the australian pink floyd last night in Belfast.

There was cheers from the crowds during the bit that the union jack falls to pieces to reveal the bloody cross.

:D

Watch the video for 'goodbye blue sky' if you don't know what i'm talking about.

[Sasha]

i have to admit i have an old union jack hanging in my room back from my punk/skinhead days but then i my room is full with flags, the amsterdam one, a surinam one, the flag of the basque, a hammer and sickle, a whole bunch of pirate flags, a palestine one (to piss of my zionist neigbours), a AFA one and probily some more.

[Andropov]

I always interpreted the Union Jack as one of Imperialism.
The Union Jack still lays claim to Ireland, as the old flag of Ireland was the red X with a white back drop and is incorporated into the Union Jack with St Georges Cross and the Scottish flag.
Not only is it insulting its also a relic of imperialism.
Hence why over here its refered to as the Butchers Apron.

[bob]

The union jack and st georges cross are and always were beourgioise. The working class can't 'reclaim' what was never theirs.

exactly comrade this flag represents nothing but the surpression people and theft of other countries resorces by this country this is something we should be ashamed about and not celebrate one of the biggest symbols for nazis in the country next they will be wanting to take the swastika back from the nazis

[BogdanV]

In my case, I can't relate the romanian flag with imperialism or bad practices against immigrants, other cultures, etc. as this place is a real backwater.
Also, I don't consider the flag to have anything to do with the government or with nationalist freaks and their actions. I rather look at it as a cultural/historical symbol, or something that relates to the lands between the Danube, Black Sea and the Prut river, regardless of the origins/any other particularities of its inhabitants.
Anyway, that's just my personal opinion and sorry if I went off-topic.

[JohannGE]

What is your guys attitude towards the use of the Union Jack in pop culture (e.g. britpop, mods, punk, etc)? Or more broadly, do you think the Britpop movement had nationalist overtones?

It's the butchers rag and always will be!

[communard resolution]

exactly comrade this flag represents nothing but the surpression people and theft of other countries resorces by this country this is something we should be ashamed about and not celebrate one of the biggest symbols for nazis in the country next they will be wanting to take the swastika back from the nazis

The first bit (flag represents oppression of people) I understand. But ashamed? I'm not ashamed of anything the ruling classes of 'my' country have done to the working classes in 'my' country or abroad.

[Forward Union]

Personally I find it to be an entirely wrong idea. The use of 'claiming' a flag or national symbol goes against a key idea of the anti-racist movement: the discrimination on national boundries is wrong, as well as ethnicity, skin colour etc. By pinning ourselves to, for example, the Flag of St George we communicate that our only concern is:

a) The English population
b) Racism that exists within these particular national boundaries.

This is very much in opposition to one of our key priorites at this minute: the horrendous discrimination faced by asylum seekers and detained asylum seekers who overnight become nationless people. Not only would the reclaimation of the flag be entirely insulting (in my view) to the hundreds of different national, ethnic and cultural influences and practices we see in the UK today, but in certain ways it also appears to show a certain level of support for our countries immigration and asylum policy (which nobody needs explained to them on here, is racist and inhumane).

So no, I don't think its a good idea in the slightest.


You are forgetting that usage determines meaning.

[Pogue]

I think its wrong and useless, although I could see why reformist types might play a sort of 'progressive nationalism', as Billy Bragg would put it, it could potentially be very beneficial and help destroy the BNP. It'd be a contradiction of anarchism though, and I basically don't feel a need to do it. It'd be like believing workers are too thick to ever be anything other than mindless nationalists.

[Sam_b]

[/QUOTEThe Levellers' Standard]You are forgetting that usage determines meaning[/QUOTE]

Not in the slightest. However I think the antifascist movement would better spend its time fighting the presence of fascism on the streets than conveying mixed messages and spending undue time and attention trying to 'reclaim' what is a solid symbol of British Nationalism, and imperialism.