Poland to ban communist symbols

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/iconic-che-tshirts-face-public-ban-in-poland-1718453.html

The image of Che Guevara (http://www.independent.ie/topics/Che+Guevara) found on posters and T-shirts across the world could be banned in Poland (http://www.independent.ie/topics/Poland), under a proposal to outlaw materials that incite "fascism and totalitarian systems".Elzbieta Radziszewska (http://www.independent.ie/topics/Elzbieta+Radziszewska), the equality minister, wants to expand a law prohibiting the production of fascist and totalitarian propaganda to include clothing and other items that could carry an authoritarian-related image.




Will this entail censorship of contemporary leftist movements in Poland?

[h0m0revolutionary]

The more authoritarian and intrusive bourgeois governments become the more they try, in their appearence, to distance themselves from fascism. :/

Poland is a pressing example, vile government; racist, homophobic, right-wing christian influenced etc etc.

[STJ]

What a load of cappie nonsense.

[rednordman]

This is actually a rather strange time to put up an order like this one because, if they are so adamant that fascism and socialism where the same thing than will the do same thing to people wareing subtle far-right symbols? I some how think that they will find this a difficult thing to do. Blimey, if it is for all authoritarian symbols to get banned, would they not just end up banning thier own government?

[rednordman]

Anyhow hasnt history proven that this is the wrong way to go about things? Doesnt banning things simply put things to the fore of public concience and encourage people to rage against the machine? Even if they do not initially have an interest or opinion on the subject raised?

[al8]

If I where the enemy I would support this proposal. That is, eradicating what you don't like out of public space to let it fade away in obscurity.

[Hoxhaist]

freedom of expression in a bourgeois "democracy" the hypocrisy of central european states is laughable!!

[NecroCommie]

I doubt they could extend it to communist symbolism since Poland still has a medicore communist movement as I understand. On the other hand Lithutania banned the political view of one third of its population, and made them "non-citizens" to top it off.

[LOLseph Stalin]

Fuck. Apperently freedom of speech is illegal now. Oh, and having workers control the means of production and have real elections is so totalitarian. :rolleyes: We might as well set up Big Brother cameras everywhere since freedom isn't allowed!

[Bitter Ashes]

Off the top of my head, I dont think this would be legal under the European court of human rights.

[LOLseph Stalin]

Off the top of my head, I dont think this would be legal under the European court of human rights.

Probably not, but if you think about it Fascism is banned in most countries. I guess it does make sense though as Fascism in itself violates human rights.

[Woland]

Off the top of my head, I dont think this would be legal under the European court of human rights.

Yes, it would. Germany banned Nazi symbolism, and Estonia/Latvia/Lithuania (one or all of them) banned hammer & sickle and so on. Though I don't know if they did the same with the Nazis, because they tend to stage parades for former SS members, and their president calls them 'heroes' :rolleyes:

[redSHARP]

that's a *****!!

[Dóchas]

proposal to outlaw materials that incite "fascism and totalitarian systems


well we are ok then :)

[teenagebricks]

The Poles suffered a lot of heavy censorship during the communist era, funny how they're going back to censorship in the name of anti communism.

[punisa]

Communists symbols can not be banned. It's all downhill if they actually implement these laws.

[Bitter Ashes]

Article 10 of the European Human Rights Convention is all about freedom of expression. There are only a few times you're not allowed to express yourself. Only if it infringes upon the below, would it be legal according to european law, to restrict the freedom of expression:

* National security, territorial integrity or public safety.
* The prevention of disorder or crime.
* The protection of health or morals.
* The protection of the reputation or rights of others.
* The prevention of the disclosure of information received in confidence.
* For maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary.So, it should be covered and can be challenged at the European court of human rights, which is part of the deal that Poland bought into when they joined the EU.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Fuck. Apperently freedom of speech is illegal now. Oh, and having workers control the means of production and have real elections is so totalitarian. :rolleyes: We might as well set up Big Brother cameras everywhere since freedom isn't allowed!

Not that it was exactly encouraged or even allowed before, this is an illusion the bourgeoisie will have you believe.

[LOLseph Stalin]

* National security, territorial integrity or public safety. Fascism violates this
* The prevention of disorder or crime. Fascism violates this
* The protection of health or morals.- Fascism violates this
* The protection of the reputation or rights of others.- Fascism violates this
* The prevention of the disclosure of information received in confidence.
* For maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary.

I would say there's good reasons why Fascism is banned looking at this. :p

[Bitter Ashes]

Actualy, reading through this again.. I suppose there is a loophole. If Poland was to pass the law regarding the banning of these symbols, then it would become a criminal offence, which would "justify" in the ECHR's eyes the restrction on expression. I suppose it's up to the ECHR to step in before the law is passed. Anyone in Poland?

[Bitter Ashes]

I would say there's good reasons why Fascism is banned looking at this. :p
yup yup. You can get facism banned without violating the ECHR's laws, but not communism.

[Hoxhaist]

Off the top of my head, I dont think this would be legal under the European court of human rights.
The court lets similiar restrictions on symbols pass in Germany and France

[LOLseph Stalin]

Out of curiousity, have any of you ever been here?:
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1415/1220256217_d6bd70308e.jpg
I think it gives a pretty good idea as to what the Eastern European attitude is towards Communism. Keeping that in mind I can almost see why they would want Communist symbols banned, but it's a shame. We're not evil. :(

[Bitter Ashes]

The court lets similiar restrictions on symbols pass in Germany and France
read the follow up posts... :bored:

[ls]

The whole European courts thing is bullshit, they all greedily try and tap into it for their own good, then when it comes crunch time to abide by the already undemocratically chosen laws within to their own detriment, they simply shy away from it. :rolleyes:

[The Author]

The image of Che Guevara (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.independent.ie/topics/Che+Guevara) found on posters and T-shirts across the world could be banned in Poland (http://www.independent.ie/topics/Poland), under a proposal to outlaw materials that incite "fascism and totalitarian systems".Elzbieta Radziszewska (http://www.independent.ie/topics/Elzbieta+Radziszewska), the equality minister, wants to expand a law prohibiting the production of fascist and totalitarian propaganda to include clothing and other items that could carry an authoritarian-related image.How the hell is banning communist symbols a means of avoiding the incitement of fascism and "totalitarianism"? Are they saying that communists will only encourage a fascist counterrattack, or are they attempting to dupe us into believing that fascism and communism are one and the same?

Some might say they're both authoritarian or totalitarian, and that these laws do a service to "democracy." The only thing being achieved here is giving the bourgeois dictatorship more laws to exercise against the working class. How can the working class organize if they're not even allowed to carry their banners of revolution to the streets, demonstrating to viewers that they are the force of change?

This is also a shining example of how the Polish nationalists, disguising themselves as democrats, are inciting the public to hatred of all things non-Polish, an attitude reminiscent of the pre-war days and the days of the German occupation.

[Rjevan]

This is ridiculous, banning symbols won't solve any problems but only demonstrate that the government is desperate and opressive. I would bet that you have absolutely no problem buying swastika flags there and as far as I remember my history lessons, the Polish people suffered a lot more during Nazi occupation than under the PPR.

Yes, it would. Germany banned Nazi symbolism, and Estonia/Latvia/Lithuania (one or all of them) banned hammer & sickle and so on. Though I don't know if they did the same with the Nazis, because they tend to stage parades for former SS members, and their president calls them 'heroes' :rolleyes:
I don't think they banned NS-symbols... these SS glorifying memorial marches are something that really makes me sick! I doubt that the SS was so gentle and nice to them during the German occupation, so what's the matter with this glorifying shit?

[communard resolution]

the Polish people suffered a lot more during Nazi occupation than under the PPR.

There's no doubt about that, but they suffered in the PRL too. Then again, did Poland ever have a government that wasn't shitting on its people? It's a bit of a tragedy really.

To ban 'authoritarian symbols' is just silly. I don't even understand what they're aiming to achieve by that. So what if I can't walk around with a hammer & sickle on my t-shirt? Will this prevent me from becoming politically active?

[piet11111]

communism violates the "rights" of the bourgeois to exploit others and take what is not theirs.

do not forget they wrote the human rights convention to suit their needs not ours.

[LOLseph Stalin]

do not forget they wrote the human rights convention to suit their needs not ours.

That is quite true. It was constructed by the major powers in the UN, which as we know are majority Capitalist. Even during the Cold War the Socialist nations were outnumbered and would not have had as much of a say. Russia had veto powers on the security council, that's about it. Of course that only applied to the Security council and not the main body of the UN.

[rednordman]

Out of curiousity, have any of you ever been here?:
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1415/1220256217_d6bd70308e.jpg
I think it gives a pretty good idea as to what the Eastern European attitude is towards Communism. Keeping that in mind I can almost see why they would want Communist symbols banned, but it's a shame. We're not evil. :(Though I have not been there, I would not say that this exactly represents the whole view of entire easten europe towards communist theory. After all, many of them still understand that they are getting pissed on with capitalism as well.

Just look at the "russian doll" for heaven sake, it like they are indicating that the whole fault of all the crimes of the old eastern block was because of Russians:rolleyes:...Because there was no Czecks who were a communist during their "communist invasion" was there?

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

The right reigns in Poland. Political institutions there are extremely reactionary. A communist movement is minimal. I worry about a tyranny of the conservative majority against a leftist minority and who will effectively be targeted by this new law. If communists in Poland will henceforth be treated like neo-Nazis in Germany, then this is a sad day for leftists.

[STJ]

Out of curiousity, have any of you ever been here?:
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1415/1220256217_d6bd70308e.jpg
I think it gives a pretty good idea as to what the Eastern European attitude is towards Communism. Keeping that in mind I can almost see why they would want Communist symbols banned, but it's a shame. We're not evil. :(
I am evil.

[Revy]

There have been moves in many of these countries to ban the red flag and red star.
It's ironic though, that the red star at least, is sometimes used by corporations, like Heineken. And Macy's, though that's only in America.

[Bitter Ashes]

Out of curiousity, have any of you ever been here?:
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1415/1220256217_d6bd70308e.jpg
I think it gives a pretty good idea as to what the Eastern European attitude is towards Communism. Keeping that in mind I can almost see why they would want Communist symbols banned, but it's a shame. We're not evil. :(
btw, am I the only one who laughed when they saw that photo?
Is it actualy real, or satire?

[STJ]

Has to be satire.

[Revy]

It's called a matryoshka.

From wiki:

During Perestroika (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perestroika), the leaders of the Soviet Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union) became a common theme depicted on matreshki. Starting with the largest, Mikhail Gorbachev (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Gorbachev), then Leonid Brezhnev (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonid_Brezhnev) (Yuri Andropov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuri_Andropov) and Konstantin Chernenko (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konstantin_Chernenko) almost never appear due to the short length of their respective terms), then Nikita Khrushchev (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikita_Khrushchev), Josef Stalin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin) and finally the smallest, Vladimir Lenin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Lenin). Newer versions start with Dmitry Medvedev (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitry_Medvedev) and then follow with Vladimir Putin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Putin), Boris Yeltsin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Yeltsin), Mikhail Gorbachev (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Gorbachev), Joseph Stalin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin) and then Vladimir Lenin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Lenin).http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c2/Matryoshka_Russian_politicians.jpg/800px-Matryoshka_Russian_politicians.jpg

[teenagebricks]

Who designs those things? I don't think they made Putin handsome enough.

[Coggeh]

Quote from the telegraph :


Radziszewska said that the proposed amendment to current legislation "would help organisations fighting racism".:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad ::mad::mad::mad: FUCKING IDIOTS !

[LOLseph Stalin]

btw, am I the only one who laughed when they saw that photo?
Is it actualy real, or satire?

No, it's real. They have them all over Prague. It's really funny because there's a McDonald's right beside the museum. Anyway, that museum pretty much represents the Czech view on Communism and I have to say that it's not exactly positive. There was one part that had videos of Czech police beating citizens and stuff.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

btw, am I the only one who laughed when they saw that photo?
Is it actualy real, or satire?

I'm going to guess satire as well.

Though if it's not, the whole "First floor, Next to Casino" is pretty fucking hilarious.

[LOLseph Stalin]

Though if it's not, the whole "First floor, Next to Casino" is pretty fucking hilarious.

Not only that, it's beside a McDonald's. :laugh:

[Unclebananahead]

Hypocritical bastards! Try as they might, the red flag, pictures of Che, as well as the hammer and sickle will be brought forth and used again and again.

[Dr Mindbender]

I think this ban will backfire and make the symbols even more popular.

[fatpanda]

the polish regime sucks

[followthemoney]

I wonder what their definition of "totalitarian systems" is? I bet the people crafting this are thinking something like, "a system that prevents me from using vast accumulations of capital to exploit people and manipulate markets is totalitarian. "

It seems similar to the argument made by the American South just before the Civil War. We have the right to deprive individuals of their liberty at random, and only a totalitarian dictator would try to take away that right.

[LOLseph Stalin]

"a system that prevents me from using vast accumulations of capital to exploit people and manipulate markets is totalitarian. "

I'm positive that is what they're thinking so Communism has to be totalitarian. It's quite hypocritical of them to do this since censorship is seen as a trait of totalitarianism and that is the exact thing they're trying to get rid of. :rolleyes:

[STJ]

I think this ban will backfire and make the symbols even more popular.
Exactly whenever you ban something it makes people want to try it more

[Dust Bunnies]

Indeed, this ban will backfire, on them but I don't think Poland will be the big first battle for the revolution anyway.

[Radical]

Thats some stupid shit, although I am an Anti-Facist.

[Rebel_Serigan]

This is an interesting development. I mean we should be thanking the Polish government on a small scle. When a country censors something what happens? Everybody wants a piece of it. Just look at swing music in Nazi Germany. It had a small following before the Nazis banned it and then BOOM! The Swing Kids got started up and Germany became a hub for swing. I think this is not even a thorn in our heel, it is much more like a strike that has falled short, let us take advantage of this opening

[Zurdito]

A good example of why Trotsky argued against leftists supporting bourgeois states bringing in censorship and draconian measures supposedly to fight "fascism" - they will always eventually be used primarily against the left.

[Zurdito]

This is an interesting development. I mean we should be thanking the Polish government on a small scle. When a country censors something what happens? Everybody wants a piece of it. Just look at swing music in Nazi Germany. It had a small following before the Nazis banned it and then BOOM! The Swing Kids got started up and Germany became a hub for swing. I think this is not even a thorn in our heel, it is much more like a strike that has falled short, let us take advantage of this opening

censorship against political views is not the same as censorship against a kind of music, time and time again bourgeois states have found terror their best and only weapon to beat the working class.

the whole line that censoring something is the best way to make it popular isn't true, hardline repressive anti-communism was necessarry and vital for the bourgeoisie to prevent revolution in many countries. In a time of international economic crisis we should be awaree of the styrong possibility and dangers of a return to rabid "anti-communism".

[Marx22]

The ban won't stop anything. It will backfire and as STJ said, will only make the demand for these symbols even stronger, as will the resolve of communist organizations located in that country. What does Poland have anything to gain from this communist symbol ban other than Glenn Beck pleasuring himself?

[DancingLarry]

The Poles suffered a lot of heavy censorship during the communist era, funny how they're going back to censorship in the name of anti communism.

The Polish bourgeois regime seems to be committed to duplicating all the major political mistakes of "People's Poland." The current regime legitimizes itself with appeals to "political liberty" and "individual freedome", and then immediately turns and whacks away at any semblance of the same.

Adam Michnik, one of the leading dissident intellectuals of the state "communist" period, has theorized that the rul e of the party continuously weakened as the political language of the regime was continually twisted top fit whatever its policy of the moment was. Eventually the pseudo-Marxist rhetoric used by the regime became entirely empty of meaning, by which point Polish working class became scornfully contemptuous of the entire system. The policy of the supposed "worker's state" was self-evidently one of squeezing maximum surplus value from the working class; appeals to "revolutionary legitimacy" fell empty in a nation where there had been no revolution. Today's capitalist Poland seems to be doing the same thing of drainging its political rhetoric of even its conventional meaning. That they've been through this Orwellian process before gives one hope that Poles will be able to recognize the repeat performance.

[communard resolution]

The Polish bourgeois regime seems to be committed to duplicating all the major political mistakes of "People's Poland." The current regime legitimizes itself with appeals to "political liberty" and "individual freedome", and then immediately turns and whacks away at any semblance of the same.

Adam Michnik, one of the leading dissident intellectuals of the state "communist" period, has theorized that the rul e of the party continuously weakened as the political language of the regime was continually twisted top fit whatever its policy of the moment was. Eventually the pseudo-Marxist rhetoric used by the regime became entirely empty of meaning, by which point Polish working class became scornfully contemptuous of the entire system. The policy of the supposed "worker's state" was self-evidently one of squeezing maximum surplus value from the working class; appeals to "revolutionary legitimacy" fell empty in a nation where there had been no revolution. Today's capitalist Poland seems to be doing the same thing of drainging its political rhetoric of even its conventional meaning. That they've been through this Orwellian process before gives one hope that Poles will be able to recognize the repeat performance.

I couldn't possibly agree more. In capitalist countries, the ruling elite will repeat certain buzzwords and phrases to justify just about anything. Eventually, words and phrases become hollow shells and cease to mean anything: democracy, freedom, liberty, etc.

In the Eastern bloc countries, the ruling elite kept repeating a different set of buzzwords and phrases to justify just about anything: socialism, communism, revolutionary, etc. There too, words completely lost their meaning.

[fredbergen]

Now would be a good time to point out that most of the left, even self-described "Trotskyists," were on the side of the counterrevolution that has devastated the workers of Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union, thrown the rights of women back a hundred years and unleashed a nightmare of nationalist bloodbaths. Fake socialists supported Yeltsin and the "union" of the CIA and the Vatican bankers, Solidarnosc, while the Trotskyists called to "Stop Solidarnosc Counterrevolution." The phony socialists who stood with their own bourgeoisies instead of defending the Soviet Union and the deformed workers states bear responsibility for the terrible effects of the counterrevolution.

[RedArmyUK]

Polish people and the Polish government spent way to much time trying to deal with its past.

[rednordman]

Polish people and the Polish government spent way to much time trying to deal with its past.Its a simple statement but I think you have something with this. The same could be said about other former socialist countries also.

[NecroCommie]

Lets ban Polish symbols.

[Bitter Ashes]

Sorry to necro this thread, but I just stumbled across something that you might find intresting. I was pretty sure that the ECHR would have objections to the ban and there's evidence that similiar bans have been ruled against by the ECHR's in the recent past.
http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/217632,wearing-a-red-star-in-hungary-is-a-basic-human.html
Hungary tried to ban the red star in 2008 and they were ruled against, stating also that the ECHR's ruling overruled Hungary's own local laws.
Hope that helps :)

[NecroCommie]

Well thats good news. :) At least someone has grasped some basic intelligence.

[Uppercut]

what a great way to remember the soviet liberators: by banning all communist/socialist symbols. god bless poland!

[RedArmyUK]

what a great way to remember the soviet liberators: by banning all communist/socialist symbols. god bless poland!

I spend a lot of time in Poland,, believe me its one strange place when it comes to Politics and its past.