Your Thoughts on Suicide

[DesertShark]

First off let me say that I'm not thinking of, about to, or going to commit suicide.

I'm bringing this up because over the last few years I've had a lot of friends take their own lives and people I love/care about threaten to or attempt it. I want to know what people else where think about suicide and how they feel when it happens.

One friend did it fairly recently; I've been moving slower, thinking slower, and my reaction time being thinking and acting has been a lot slower because of it. I've dealt with a lot of death in my life (including people I've been close to), but this has never happened, I've never 'slowed down' (and I'm talking literally not figuratively here).

[Dr Mindbender]

Personally, with the forgivable exception of euthanasia i think it's the coward's way out.

I don't care how bad things seem, to me your life is something which should be preserved within reason if you can mantain your faculties. If you're at school and being bullied, take up self defence and to hell with what the school management say. I say that as someone who often became aggressive at school in response to the dominant playground hegemony. Childhood and school is only a very temporary transitional period anyway. Speaking as someone who's lost many close relatives (to natural causes) i could not in good conscience inflict that sort of grief and stress on my family by my own hand.

[Trystan]

I don't think people should be coerced to stay alive, personally.

But then there is the mental health issue, and the question of whether people can be in control of their suicide . . . difficult issue. But generally I think I would oppose involuntary committal and such.

That said, if one of my friends of family told me they would do it, I know I would coerce them if necessary to stop them. Like I said . . . it's a difficult issue.

[Dr Mindbender]

I don't think people should be coerced to stay alive, personally.


If people didnt feel co-erced to kill themselves, we wouldnt be having this debate in the first place.

But then, its because of the material circumstances created by the present system that makes us all hate capitalism so much, right?

Your point about mental health is a valid one though. Are we talking specifically about people who kill themselves despite retaining their own sober sense of choice, or are we also including people incapable of making of rational choices due to mental infirmity or accidental suicide due to things like drug abuse?

[LOLseph Stalin]

I'm not sure if it still is or not, but here in Canada attempting suicide was considered a criminal offense. Anyway, I view it as a cowardly thing to do although if people want to it's their own choice. Yes it may hurt those close to them, but some people just feel they have no other option. Trust me, I have been in states of severe depression and considered it a few times myself. It's hard, even for the person trying to do it.

[Trystan]

Vinnie - although I wouldn't put it that strongly, I think you make a fair point.

[Sam_b]

I don't care how bad things seem

There speaks someone who has never been seriously depressed then.

[bcbm]

There speaks someone who has never been seriously depressed then.

I have and continue to deal with pretty serious depression, and I think US is pretty much spot on. I think about suicide many times a week but its still an absolutely pathetic thing to do, especially living lives such as we do in the parts of the world where suicide is most common.

[bellyscratch]

Although I don't condone suicide as its obviously unpleasant for the people close to whoever does it, I don't like it when people say that its 'the cowards way out'. I mean for somebody to have to end their own life with no way to change their mind after they've done it, is something that a coward could not do imo. I've been in and out of depression since I was 12, and very much identify with anyone who has or thought of committing suicide. There are obviously psychological problems that are bound up in this and therefore I think it unfair for people to label them cowards.

[Sam_b]

I don't see it as pathetically or cowardly in the slightest, and I say this from having previously been in a position to do so as well.

[bcbm]

Although I don't condone suicide as its obviously unpleasant for the people close to whoever does it, I don't like it when people say that its 'the cowards way out'. I mean for somebody to have to end their own life with no way to change their mind after they've done it, is something that a coward could not do imo. I've been in and out of depression since I was 12, and very much identify with anyone who has or thought of committing suicide. There are obviously psychological problems that are bound up in this and therefore I think it unfair for people to label them cowards.

I don't think there's much in this world worth killing yourself over and the effect on your loved ones is absolutely devastating and that is why I think its a terribly pathetic option. Its a quick escape instead of trying to deal with the actual problems.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Euthanasia should absolutely be legalized, and everyone should be required to put their wishes for vegetative state in their will (everyone should be required to write a will, too. Also, in the process everyone should be properly educated as to what exactly they are agreeing to and given an understanding about levels of coma vs brain-dead). I find it absolutely disgusting that when people in that position (or, in the Terri Schiavo scenario), aren't given an injection to make it quick and painless, but rather in most cases the feeding tube is pulled so they starve to death.

As for the other kind, it's none of my business and if they want to do it that's one less person. That said, I've recommended people to therapy who I thought might be seriously considering it.

I've known of at least one person who (allegedly) did it so that his wife and kids would get the life-insurance money and not go bankrupt, and that's really sad.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I've thought about suicide, but I've never seriously considered it. Personally I have doubts as to whether I'd follow through with it. Leaving aside the fact that I have yet to feel that my life is no longer worth living, I'd also have concerns about my own competence - in my mind would be the thought of fucking up a suicide attempt and dying a long, slow, and above all painful death, or surviving and living the rest of my life crippled and/or maimed, which would be worse than death.

Generally when I'm feeling down, I just encourage myself to soldier on in the realisation that things will eventually get better, and remind myself that there are lots of life's little pleasures to enjoy along the way.

[Dr Mindbender]

There speaks someone who has never been seriously depressed then.

If people in the third world can see reason to live on what excuse do us westerners have when our lot is so much better?

Frankly i see it as an insult to those in countries who cherish their lives but have them taken from them despite their own choices.

[MarxSchmarx]

One friend did it fairly recently; I've been moving slower, thinking slower, and my reaction time being thinking and acting has been a lot slower because of it. I've dealt with a lot of death in my life (including people I've been close to), but this has never happened, I've never 'slowed down' (and I'm talking literally not figuratively here).

Sorry to hear about your loss, mate. The key is to hang in there, realize and accept there is little you can do. I've been there and know where you're coming from.

If your slowing down, though, is that abnormal and continues for more than a few days (like 3 wks) you should see a professional. Lots of us go through depressed moments when people we are close to pass away, and the natural grieving process takes its toll on our day-to-day operations.

But if we find we can't get back to our "normal" selves this may be a sign that you are becoming too conditioned to a depressed state. This is not healthy and can impede your other functioning.

Odds are you will be fine, but just keep an eye out for it.

[h0m0revolutionary]

If people in the third world can see reason to live on what excuse do us westerners have when our lot is so much better?

Frankly i see it as an insult to those in countries who cherish their lives but have them taken from them despite their own choices.

That's nothing but deeply reactionary, moralistic and self-important crap.

Suicide can occur for a whole variety of reasons, most noteworty being to will to escape physical pain/suffering. There is nothing at all wrong with this.

But that isn't the whole picture, if somebody kills themselves wishing to escape mental pain/suffering who are you to invalidate that action? It is one that is never taken lightly, and although regrettable is often a reflection not just of mental discomfort, but of more sinister occurances in that individuals live.

1 in 5 LGBTQ people for example will attempt suicide in their life times, this is a reflection of the verbal abuse, physical abuse and/or domestic violence that disproportionatly affects LGBTQ individuals.

If somebody contemplates taking their own life it is a clear sign that that person feels unable to reconcile something within that life and/or that their current standard of life is something they would rtaher not experience and cannot envisage becoming better. If this is the case, then however unfortnate, who is anyone not directly assosciated with said person to denounce that action?!

It isn't hard to empathise with people in such situations, I think if any one of us knows of such a person it's our duty to help them through their circumstances, not to lecture them about how selfish they are.

[Dr Mindbender]

Suicide can occur for a whole variety of reasons, most noteworty being to will to escape physical pain/suffering. There is nothing at all wrong with this.

Yes which is why i noted euthanasia as an acceptable exception if you bothered to read my first post.



But that isn't the whole picture, if somebody kills themselves wishing to escape mental pain/suffering who are you to invalidate that action?
I don't think theres any need for me to validate or invalidate their action, i think anyone with sense can see the ingratitude of someone who brings about their own mortality when we still live in a world blighted by things like food scarcity, malignant cancer and AIDS.

[Sam_b]

h0m0revolutionary is absolutely spot-on. Your lack of understanding and empathy is noted, Ulster.

[Holden Caulfield]

h0m0revolutionary is absolutely spot-on. Your lack of understanding and empathy is noted, Ulster.

yep.
Fake Chit Chat thanks to the homorevolutionary

[apathy maybe]

My body, my life, my choice.

I am not about to kill myself, but if anyone else wants to, well, their choice.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/suicide-t7785/index.html

None of you can talk because none of you have ever pulled it off. So shut the fuck up ehy?

http://www.revleft.com/vb/suicide-and-you-t20029/index.html


Speaking personally, I've found revolutionary politics to be a good "coping mechanism" (as the shrinks call it) -- the more miserable I can make the lives of the bastards who run things on this planet of shit (and those who support and defend them), the better I feel.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/suicide-assisted-suicide-t60527/index.html

If we have a right to life, the surly we also have a right to die.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/suicide-t60736/index.html

The problem with this thread is the question. You cant have a sensible opinion on 'suicide' you can only have an opinion on an option of suicide. The category is a technical generalisation.

Anyone who thinks it is an "easy way out" or similar, well, heh, two things,
Is it so easy?
And what's wrong with escapism anyway?


Edit: found some great quotes from me (from http://www.revleft.com/vb/suicide-t60736/index2.html ):

I think everyone should kill themselves. If only to know what it feels like.

I also think that people who have a moral objection to suicide can go and get fucked. That also goes for people who crap on about "strong/weak will" or "mental fitness" or other rubbish. Basically, if someone wants to kill themselves, it is none of your fucking business. The same if someone wants to eat a cookie filled with THC.

What someone does with their own body is their own choice, and you and everyone else has no fucking say in the matter what so ever.

[Dr Mindbender]

h0m0revolutionary is absolutely spot-on. Your lack of understanding and empathy is noted, Ulster.


I challenge any of you to go to a country affected by scarcity, or even a terminal cancer ward in this country and defend the rights of well nourished, physically healthy people to kill themselves.

[Holden Caulfield]

I challenge any of you to go to a country affected by scarcity, or even a terminal cancer ward in this country and defend the rights of well nourished, physically healthy people to kill themselves.

My mums friend is anti-abortion because she had a still-birth herself.

same argument.

[BobKKKindle$]

If people in the third world can see reason to live on what excuse do us westerners have when our lot is so much better?

This is some of the most simplistic and downright wrong analysis I've ever seen on this site. The fact that people in the "third world" tend not to have access to the same material goods and security as people who live in developed countries does not automatically mean that they are more likely to commit suicide, and that we should therefore expect to find higher suicide rates in underdeveloped countries, because suicide is, in every case, a complex psychological phenomenon that you can't reduce to a single factor such as whether someone lives in poverty or not. In fact, the research (Durkheim et al.) suggests that if we want to get an idea of whether someone is likely to contemplate or commit suicide then we should look a whether that person has stable and fulfilling relationships, and the attitudes that their community has towards life and death (look at Durkheim's research on Catholics and Protestants), which, in most cases, has nothing to do with poverty whatsoever.

[BobKKKindle$]

This discussion is interesting, so, if the OP has no objections, I'm moving this to science and environment.

[Dr Mindbender]

This is some of the most simplistic and downright wrong analysis I've ever seen on this site. The fact that people in the "third world" tend not to have access to the same material goods and security as people who live in developed countries does not automatically mean that they are more likely to commit suicide, and that we should therefore expect to find higher suicide rates in underdeveloped countries, because suicide is, in every case, a complex psychological phenomenon that you can't reduce to a single factor such as whether someone lives in poverty or not. In fact, the research (Durkheim et al.) suggests that if we want to get an idea of whether someone is likely to contemplate or commit suicide then we should look a whether that person has stable and fulfilling relationships, and the attitudes that their community has towards life and death (look at Durkheim's research on Catholics and Protestants), which, in most cases, has nothing to do with poverty whatsoever.

No, no, poverty and suicide, no link at all. Wait for me to grab my violin while i play a sad melody for all the suicidally depressed members of the beourgioise.

[Holden Caulfield]

This view you have again ignore material issues people actually deal with.

As Homo (can i shorten it to that, im gonna and see how it goes down) said LGBT people are more likely to attempt suicide because of the abuse and opression they may receive. Russia has such a high suicide rate not because its people are 'weak' but because they had be subject to alienation by capitalism, subject to poverty, unemployment, etc etc.

you start out as a 'normal person'. then you lose you job, you start to drink, you lose you family, lose your home, you place in society, your sense of being, lose everything you held dear and suicide seems like the only option for you. They are not weak, they have been fucked by the system and abandoned.

[h0m0revolutionary]

No, no, poverty and suicide, no link at all. Wait for me to grab my violin while i play a sad melody for all the suicidally depressed members of the beourgioise.

You're actually vile..

[Dr Mindbender]

This view you have again ignore material issues people actually deal with.

As Homo (can i shorten it to that, im gonna and see how it goes down) said LGBT people are more likely to attempt suicide because of the abuse and opression they may receive. Russia has such a high suicide rate not because its people are 'weak' but because they had be subject to alienation by capitalism, subject to poverty, unemployment, etc etc.

you start out as a 'normal person'. then you lose you job, you start to drink, you lose you family, lose your home, you place in society, your sense of being, lose everything you held dear and suicide seems like the only option for you. They are not weak, they have been fucked by the system and abandoned.

And who has been more fucked over and abandoned than members of the developing world?

I think the problem us westerners have is our introverted view of the world and our inability to do other than compare ourselves to the local beourgioise. To me it all stems down to education, not this uber-libertarian claptrap about defending the rights of western workers to end themselves.

[Dr Mindbender]

You're actually vile..

Im sorry you feel that way, but thats just your opinion, not a material analysis.

[ZeroNowhere]

I challenge any of you to go to a country affected by scarcity, or even a terminal cancer ward in this country and defend the rights of well nourished, physically healthy people to kill themselves.
Hm, would India suffice?
Also, why is it that this kind of crap is brought into every other argument? For the death penalty, we had, "Have a family member killed and then let's see if you're against the death penalty!" Here, we have this bullshit. I mean, come on, now well nourished, physically healthy people killing themselves worsens the situation of the world's poor? If not, what the fuck is the point of this argument.


No, no, poverty and suicide, no link at all. Wait for me to grab my violin while i play a sad melody for all the suicidally depressed members of the beourgioise.
Bloody subhumans.
In other news, everybody who isn't poor is bourgeois...?

[apathy maybe]

I challenge any of you to go to a country affected by scarcity, or even a terminal cancer ward in this country and defend the rights of well nourished, physically healthy people to kill themselves.

That's a really shit argument.

I defend the rights of everyone to do what they like with their body.

Mind you, I'm an anarchist.

People who want a state to enforce their anti-drug, anti-suicide laws, well, fuck them. I'm not interested in their opinion.

[BobKKKindle$]

No, no, poverty and suicide, no link at all. No, I never said that there was no link, I said that the issue is not as simple as you seem to be suggesting, and poverty is ultimately only one of the factors that can lead people to commit suicide. When poverty does play a role it is generally not poverty in and of itself that drives people to commit suicide or otherwise harm themselves but broader social problems that tend to be connected with poverty, such as unstable family relationships, alcoholism, divorce, and alienation from work, and this indicates that we cannot assume that a society in which the majority of people are poorer than the average citizen in a developed country will automatically display a higher suicide rate. The statistics confirm this, because the most suicide-prone countries are actually countries in eastern Europe that were once part of the Soviet bloc - in other words, middle-income countries - as well South Korea and Japan, which are some of the most prosperous countries in the world, with the latter having a low level of income inequality and the highest life expectancy. Conversely, at the bottom of the list, we find Syria, Egypt, and other underdeveloped countries. In addition, we also find that some employment sectors, although high-paying, tend to have high suicide rates, such as dentistry, where the rate is 6.64 times that of the general working population (Stack, 1996a). All of this evidence shows that there is not a simple link between poverty and suicide, especially on a global scale.

Incidentally, I also trashed some earlier posts in this thread that were non-serious.

[Dr Mindbender]

Hm, would India suffice?
Also, why is it that this kind of crap is brought into every other argument? For the death penalty, we had, "Have a family member killed and then let's see if you're against the death penalty!" Here, we have this bullshit.

I'm just saying if you were to do that, you'd get your ass handed to you.

Not that i'm saying that would be particularly right or wrong.



Bloody subhumans.
In other news, everybody who isn't poor is bourgeois...?
What, now you're going to try and convince me that social status and privilege are not synomonous?

[Dr Mindbender]

That's a really shit argument.

I defend the rights of everyone to do what they like with their body.

Mind you, I'm an anarchist.

People who want a state to enforce their anti-drug, anti-suicide laws, well, fuck them. I'm not interested in their opinion.

I never said i support such draconion laws, i certainly don't want to ban suicide.

As i said before, i just think suicide is an awful waste, and by extension cruel in observing what it does to to the next of kin who have to pick up the pieces.

[Dr Mindbender]

My mums friend is anti-abortion because she had a still-birth herself.

same argument.

Its not actually, because in the material perspective a foetus does not constitute an actual person.

[apathy maybe]

I never said i support such draconion laws, i certainly don't want to ban suicide.

As i said before, i just think suicide is an awful waste, and by extension cruel in observing what it does to to the next of kin who have to pick up the pieces.

You are not arguing that people should be prevented from killing themselves?
That's a relief.

So, you're just saying that people who kill themselves are not nice and that there are other options?

Heh, I don't agree that they aren't "nice", and more to the point, I don't think it matters if they are or not, or if they are other options..

But, so long as the argument is on the morality of suicide, I'm going to bow out, I've had my say (and I suggest moving the thread to philosophy).

[Sam_b]

I challenge any of you to go to a country affected by scarcity, or even a terminal cancer ward in this country and defend the rights of well nourished, physically healthy people to kill themselves.

Don't give me that patrionising crap. Is this the appropriate time to tell you the story of when I was volunteering for an (anticapitalist in nature) HIV/AIDS hospice organisation and working in the wards?

I in fact agree that suicide is an awful waste as you say but that doesn't mean i'll take an attitude that absolutely stinks towards it, that reeks of a complete lack of empathy or what goes through somebody's mind when they think about it. You almost seem to take the line that those contemplating suicide want to be in the position, want to die, and that is never the case at all: it is complete helplessness and not being able to find a way out - either due to a mental condition or through experiences that they've had (lives of sexual abuse, for example). I have had partners from both sides of this divide and the experiences they share with you you cannot even begin to imagine.

So before you run your mouth off about desperate people because there are people who are worse in the developing world, just think about these sort of things.

That, and your logic makes no sense whatsoever. Its akin to saying that impoverished families in the UK shouldn't complain because there are poorer people in the Horn of Africa.

[Dr Mindbender]

Don't give me that patrionising crap. Is this the appropriate time to tell you the story of when I was volunteering for an (anticapitalist in nature) HIV/AIDS hospice organisation and working in the wards?
I'm not sure how it's relevant to the debate but i'm sure you'd agree that the people you were caring for would not have taken kindly if you told them you were contemplating suicide.


I in fact agree that suicide is an awful waste as you say but that doesn't mean i'll take an attitude that absolutely stinks towards it, that reeks of a complete lack of empathy or what goes through somebody's mind when they think about it. You almost seem to take the line that those contemplating suicide want to be in the position, want to die, and that is never the case at all: it is complete helplessness and not being able to find a way out - either due to a mental condition or through experiences that they've had (lives of sexual abuse, for example). I have had partners from both sides of this divide and the experiences they share with you you cannot even begin to imagine.
The mentally afirm aside, i don't believe that anyone genuinely with sober thought wants to die. I believe that we all have an instinct to preserve our lives at all costs. Let me be clear, i don't support removing the rights of people to kill themselves, that was never my case. I think theres a part responsibility on those close to the person and to a certain degree the state to prevent someone getting to such a low ebb. I believe in government intervention, that is why i am a socialist. What i don't subscribe to is this notion of almost going ''oh go ahead and kill yourself, mate its your autonomous right''. I find that just as callous as taking a non-sympathetic view of depression. I too, have suffered depression but i never became suicidal because i took the initiative to get help.



So before you run your mouth off about desperate people because there are people who are worse in the developing world, just think about these sort of things.
I have, as i said above.



That, and your logic makes no sense whatsoever. Its akin to saying that impoverished families in the UK shouldn't complain because there are poorer people in the Horn of Africa.
Again i never made that argument. I think that the impoverished families should complain and revolt. I think the reason we're having debates like this is because poor uk families dont complain enough hence we're having to contend with the scarcity circumstances that exacerbate suicide.

[Sam_b]

I'm not sure how it's relevant to the debate

No it wans't. It was, however, your patrionising strawman that brought it up. So I was merely reminding you that yes, I have been in these situations thank you very much.

The rest of your reply, basically, is nonsense. Nobody here is saying that there should be some sort of encouragement to commit suicide, however they are pointing out the hypocrisy of a position that advocates body autononymity in some cases but not others. And again, it is completely not your place to comment on whether you 'think' that rational people want to die or not, you are not them, you have absolutely no understanding of what is going through their heads or their experiences.

[Dr Mindbender]

The rest of your reply, basically, is nonsense. Nobody here is saying that there should be some sort of encouragement to commit suicide,

I understand, but that sentiment was almost implied in as much as ''if someone decides to kill themselves its none of my business''. I am able to acknowledge depression as an illness, and i think non intervention in that aspect would be as callous as ignoring someone who collapsed in the street with a heart attack.



however they are pointing out the hypocrisy of a position that advocates body autononymity in some cases but not others. And again, it is completely not your place to comment on whether you 'think' that rational people want to die or not, you are not them, you have absolutely no understanding of what is going through their heads or their experiences.
As i said before, i'd say i've been pretty close so i really don't understand what you think qualifies you to provide commentary in regards to my personal life experiences.

I have to get ready for work shortly but if i get an opportunity i will probably reply to the inevitable sequel to your above chastisement.

[Sam_b]

You just don't get it, do you? I'm saying you can't make such a generalised statement because although sharing these experiences is helpful, we cannot possibly comment in a uniform manner on how someone else is feeling, and we certainly should not say their actions are selfish.

[Kassad]

For people who really claim to care about others and their material state of being, a significant lot of you don't seem to care much about their emotional state of being. If you've never been suicidal, contemplated it seriously or seen those around you afflicted by serious emotional damages that made them contemplate suicide, I feel totally justified in telling you to kindly go fuck yourself.

[Dr Mindbender]

You just don't get it, do you? I'm saying you can't make such a generalised statement because although sharing these experiences is helpful, we cannot possibly comment in a uniform manner on how someone else is feeling, and we certainly should not say their actions are selfish.


I don't disagree with the jist of that, i'm merely saying that for the most part, i think the reasons that people in the developed hemisphere would use as rationale to justify the taking of their own lives are greatly disproportionate to potential motives of people much less fortunate than themselves.

People in privilege who take their own lives make me fucking angry.

[Kassad]

I don't disagree with the jist of that, i'm merely saying that for the most part, i think the reasons that people in the developed hemisphere would use as rationale to justify the taking of their own lives are greatly disproportionate to potential motives of people much less fortunate than themselves.

People in privilege who take their own lives make me fucking angry.

You do realize that people don't just kill themselves because they can't get a job or they're exploited in the workplace, right? You do realize that there are significant emotional and psychological rationalizations for suicidal thoughts and actions? I do apologize for the masses of people that have taken their lives that didn't live up to your standards, though. Terribly sorry.

[reddevil]

as somebody who once seriously considered suicide i can say it's an unwise decision as you never know what's waiting around the corner. nevertheless, i belive in the freedom of all people. sometimes, when you're in unbearable pain or desperately lonely, death can sometimes be the least worst option.

[Sam_b]

People in privilege who take their own lives make me fucking angry

People like you make me fucking angry for having no fucking idea about what goes through people's heads.

Seriously, take a good look at yourself.

[Dr Mindbender]

People like you make me fucking angry for having no fucking idea about what goes through people's heads.

why, who the fuck are you, Darren Brown?



Seriously, take a good look at yourself.

*looks in mirror*

...and your point is?

[Kassad]

His point is that you're viewing this from an elitist perspective. You're looking at suicidal people in the Western world from up on your pedestal and acting like you're the supreme judge on when a person can or can not kill themself. You're acting like someone must meet certain qualifications before they're 'justified' in killing themselves, in your eyes. A perfect dismount from your high horse.

[Dr Mindbender]

His point is that you're viewing this from an elitist perspective. You're looking at suicidal people in the Western world from up on your pedestal and acting like you're the supreme judge on when a person can or can not kill themself. You're acting like someone must meet certain qualifications before they're 'justified' in killing themselves, in your eyes. A perfect dismount from your high horse.


What pedestal? I have no pedestal. I'm not calling for a ban on sucide, i don't want to see failed suicidees locked up. I merely gave an opinion, that with the exception of euthanasia, the mentally ill or accidental overdose people who kill themselves are generally looking for an easy way out, with little regard for those they leave behind.

I have even less time for people in positions of responsibility for others who commit suicide, particularly parents of young children.

[Kassad]

The suicidal state of mind is one of the darkest and loneliest states one can ever be plunged into. When you're contemplating taking your own life, you don't regard other people because the physical and emotional strain on one's existence is literally unbearable. You obviously have no comprehension as to why people kill themselves. Most people don't do it to be irresponsible and to avoid their duties. They do it because there is almost no way out of the unbearable strain they are experiencing. You claim in a post above that you are angered by privileged people who take their lives, thus you are acting like material privilege is the only thing one has to live for. If that's truly how you view the world, assuming that someone cannot be in emotional or psychological anguish just because they are privileged, you really need to go outside and play for a little while.

[Sam_b]

Of course, comrade Kassad is absolutely bang-on with this. Nobody is saying that you have to agree or understand why people commit suicide (indeed, it is very hard for people to contemplate this if they haven't thought about doing it themselves). But these thoughts do happen, for very legitimate reasons, and all that we think you should show is a little compassion and empathy, rather than attacking the people who dare to do this kind of thing and who need our support and solidarity.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Anyway, how about the CFO of Freddie Mac (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/23/business/23freddie.html?scp=3&sq=Freddie%20Mac&st=cse)?


Mr. Kellermann, 41, began working nonstop, sometimes returning home only to change clothes, colleagues say. He was losing weight and telling friends that it seemed impossible to appease everyone — regulators, lawmakers, investors and other executives — given their competing demands. Someone was always angry with him, he told one friend. And no matter how many hours everyone worked, it seemed as if the economy and homeowners were still slipping farther into the abyss.

That's too bad. I mean, yes, he was a helluva lot richer than I am but goddamn man --- It's Just A Fucking Job! Feel sorry for his kids.

Now when Andy Card offed himself, that I understand.

[h0m0revolutionary]

11-Year=Old hangs himself after enduring daily anti-gay bullying

http://www.glsen.org/cgi-bin/iowa/all/news/record/2400.html

selfish fucker right? :rolleyes:

[Lynx]

Suicide is an option.

[Coggeh]

I don't see it as pathetically or cowardly in the slightest, and I say this from having previously been in a position to do so as well.
Its selfish and pathetic . Can you imagine the lives you'll leave behind , your parents , siblings and friends ? but on the other hand , their is in reality little options for people these days . So can you blame them ? Confusing stuff.

With that said , I think their is a huge lack of places where people can go and talk to people get help in confidence . But its not even that , their is a stigma about wanting to talk to someone , you feel ashamed , stupid and weak .

All of this is bullshit obviously and all of it must be challenged . Their should be free 24/7 helplines , with free 7 days a week centres for people .


I remember looking for some place to go but lucky me they were only open school hours :glare:

[NecroCommie]

I think that we should suicide George W. Bush. That way the blame wouldn't be on us.

[NecroCommie]

11-Year=Old hangs himself after enduring daily anti-gay bullying

http://www.glsen.org/cgi-bin/iowa/all/news/record/2400.html

selfish fucker right? :rolleyes:
Thats horrible. Being bullied myself, I know there is no punishment horrible enough for bullies. And I mean it.

[Dr Mindbender]

11-Year=Old hangs himself after enduring daily anti-gay bullying

http://www.glsen.org/cgi-bin/iowa/all/news/record/2400.html

selfish fucker right? :rolleyes:

No.

Children arent mature enough to make life changing decisions. Therefore they cant be held accountable.

An example of selfish suicide would be to kill yourself when others well beings are dependent on you.

I put the above case down to a failure on the school to reprimand the bullies.

[Holden Caulfield]

Its selfish and pathetic
I went to see Occupation 101 the other day. There was a part with a mother talking about her pre-teen daughter who was caught tying a noose to a tree to end her life. There home had been knocked down 3 times, their land had been stolen, their mother had been beaten in front of them, and their father was almost ritually attacked by settlers.

Was this child pathetic? Or can you understand the state of mind suicides are in when they attempt to, or sucessfully take their own lives.

A Palestinian professor of psychology was also on the film claiming that his child studies had found alarmingly high numbers of Palestinian Children had literally lost the will to live due to the horrors they had endured.

Does anybody else want to criticise suicides? I suggest they read up on the correlation between the unemployment rate and the suicide rate in Russia, and watch the film Occupation 101.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

why, who the fuck are you, Darren Brown?



Stop being a child. Do you not understand how difficult life is for some people? You'd think by the fact that they actually KILL themselves or think about doing this then you'd have some understanding about their quality of life.

[Dr Mindbender]

Stop being a child. Do you not understand how difficult life is for some people? You'd think by the fact that they actually KILL themselves or think about doing this then you'd have some understanding about their quality of life.

Yes, i understand how difficult life can be for some people, because i myself have sank as low as one can without actually becoming a homeless vagrant.

It's not that simple though. People take their lives for all sorts of reasons, including mental illness and drug abuse. I'd put money on the vast majority of attempted suicide participants, certainly in the first world not being of healthy and/or sober mind when they attempted suicide.

Then again, maybe the rest are nihilists who don't believe there are any consequences to their action.

[Josef Balin]

Cowards way out? How many brave people do you really know? If it was the cowards way out, it'd be by far the leading cause of death.

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

Even if someone believes suicide is cowardly (which is false), they shouldn't spread that idea. Suicide is regularly the result of low self esteem. Perpetuating the idea that suicide is "cowardly" just makes people feel worse and more likely to commit suicide.

[Coggeh]

I went to see Occupation 101 the other day. There was a part with a mother talking about her pre-teen daughter who was caught tying a noose to a tree to end her life. There home had been knocked down 3 times, their land had been stolen, their mother had been beaten in front of them, and their father was almost ritually attacked by settlers.

Was this child pathetic? Or can you understand the state of mind suicides are in when they attempt to, or sucessfully take their own lives.

A Palestinian professor of psychology was also on the film claiming that his child studies had found alarmingly high numbers of Palestinian Children had literally lost the will to live due to the horrors they had endured.

Does anybody else want to criticise suicides? I suggest they read up on the correlation between the unemployment rate and the suicide rate in Russia, and watch the film Occupation 101.
You quoted 4 words of my post . Did you not even try and read the rest ?

[butterfly]

Yes, i understand how difficult life can be for some people, because i myself have sank as low as one can without actually becoming a homeless vagrant.
I don't think you'd be labelling a suicide attempt 'selfish' if you had come close to being in a state of depression.

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

I don't think you'd be labelling a suicide attempt 'selfish' if you had come close to being in a state of depression.

I have an analogy. I'm sure I could find a more accurate analogy, or I could invoke poetic language, sets of analogies. If an individual thinks depression is cowardly, stimulate their brain. Make them think they're on fire, and place them in a room with a gun.

Tell them it's alright. In a few hours, you'll reverse the process.
A few hours later, tell them it'll be a few days.
A few days later, it's a few weeks.
Eventually, they confront you. You don't know why, but the process wasn't reversible. You have some ideas, and you'll do your best. These ideas work for some people, when this happened before, but it doesn't work for all people. You "know" you can solve the problem, but you don't know "when."

If you think you're on fire, you feel on fire. The natural reaction, I think, would be to shoot yourself to stop the pain. Cases of depression vary. I've encountered physical pain in my life. Some of those pains I would prefer to the periods of severe depression I've had. In fact, given one hour of severe depression against an hour of certain physical pains, it's a tough choice. I probably would choose the pain in some cases. However, my depression has continuously been considered mild. And those periods have been "horrible." There was nothing about it that felt mild.

Of course, physical pain and depression are related by distinctly different types of pain. I'd take a quick instance of depression (presuming I'm monitored) over physical pain, in some cases. To have lifelong depression, as opposed to lifelong physical pain, I think I'd choose the pain. Pain is is manageable by strength of will. Depression removes the strength of will and leaves you in a hole with no where to recover.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Yes, i understand how difficult life can be for some people, because i myself have sank as low as one can without actually becoming a homeless vagrant.

It's not that simple though. People take their lives for all sorts of reasons, including mental illness and drug abuse. I'd put money on the vast majority of attempted suicide participants, certainly in the first world not being of healthy and/or sober mind when they attempted suicide.

Then again, maybe the rest are nihilists who don't believe there are any consequences to their action.

You'd probably be right. But you seem to have answered your own question. People aren't in their right minds because of the life they live.

[More Fire for the People]

Don't do it. A lot of my views about suicide stem from my upbringing in Protestant and American Indian customs.

[redSHARP]

"its a permanent solution to a temporary problem"

[Holden Caulfield]

You quoted 4 words of my post . Did you not even try and read the rest ?

nah not really what was the jist? i kinda just wanted to make my post and wanted something to bounce it off.

[Coggeh]

nah not really what was the jist? i kinda just wanted to make my post and wanted something to bounce it off.
Oh thats fair enough , I know that you weren't like "attacking" me lol cause my name wasn't on the quote .

my post :
Its selfish and pathetic . Can you imagine the lives you'll leave behind , your parents , siblings and friends ? but on the other hand , their is in reality little options for people these days . So can you blame them ? Confusing stuff.

With that said , I think their is a huge lack of places where people can go and talk to people get help in confidence . But its not even that , their is a stigma about wanting to talk to someone , you feel ashamed , stupid and weak .

All of this is bullshit obviously and all of it must be challenged . Their should be free 24/7 helplines , with free 7 days a week centres for people .


I remember looking for some place to go but lucky me they were only open school hours :glare:

Jist basically being I don't like suicide , and I don't like the idea of one doing it but I understand why and that their is hardly any real provisions for people to cope with depression these days .

[Dean]

My own brother used to have nothing but contempt and criticism for those who try to kill themselves. This kind of attitude about others is generally not in his nature. But it comes as a dogmatic, emotional response to the compulsion, a survival tactic.

Perhaps this is where Ulster Socialist comes from. Of course I fundamentally oppose his attitude about suicidal people. But it is important to understand the emotional reasoning for people - and there always is one - to have the ideas that they do. Just as it is important to understand the emotional reasoning for suicidal people.

[Comrade Anarchist]

i dont condemn it or condone it but if someone thinks that their life has come to the end and they are not dead and they want to then let them. If your seriously depressed and there seems to be no escape then go ahead. it is not the easy way or the cowards way out but instead a last option

[Weezer]

"There is a permament solution to a temporary probelm."

I deal with depression, and I find suicide a sad and cowardly way out of life.

[DesertShark]

I couldn't go to the memorial service for my friend because it was too far away. Being so far it, it all still seems like a sick joke; especially since my friend was the type who would pull some ridiculous prank like that.

You can't fault people for their demons or how the world effects them or how they process the things they see and hear - to each his own. Without those things they wouldn't be the person you know them as, its a part of who they are.

You'd think with the number of suicides there are and/or the number of people who are miserable in the world, everyone would want to change the way things are so that people wouldn't have to be miserable or even think of suicide as an option. But I guess that's why so many of us are here on the forum...

[Sentinel]

As an advocate of absolute individual bodily autonomy I'm of the opinion that it should be up to everyone personally whether they wish to live or not. Society should not interfere, except in the case of children.

[h0m0revolutionary]

As an advocate of absolute individual bodily autonomy I'm of the opinion that it should be up to everyone personally whether they wish to live or not. Society should not interfere, except in the case of children.

That's just not rational on any level though is it?

No individual comes outside of social, physical relations with other people, so suicide is highly likely to affect another person, this could be a loving partner left to look after children alone, or a fellow worker left with an increased workload.

Whatever the relation suicide does not happen in isolation and bears consequences. Therefore there is a role for mutual aid.

If we take your approach to it's logical conclusion then society does not have any place to infringe a persons right to end their life, that's fine, but what you insinuate is that society has no role within that decision. And that is wrong, wider society should of course help a person contemplating taking their own life in any way people can.

I don't condemn suicide of course, but to argue that an individual has the right to kill themselves and society has no place to try and impede that act and help said troubled person, just isn't right.

[Dr Mindbender]

As an advocate of absolute individual bodily autonomy I'm of the opinion that it should be up to everyone personally whether they wish to live or not. Society should not interfere, except in the case of children.

What about vulnerable adults suffering from mental impairment?

[Sentinel]

No individual comes outside of social, physical relations with other people, so suicide is highly likely to affect another person, this could be a loving partner left to look after children alone, or a fellow worker left with an increased workload.Well, I disagree. Yes, suicide isn't fun for those left behind and it does indeed deprive society of a worker.

But none of that matters if you truly believe in absolute bodily autonomy -- between the occasions of birth and death -- as I do. It is for the same reason I support abortion on demand as well; it's the womans body, regardless of what plans other family members or society might have for the child once it's born and what feelings they may have towards it.

Much like if she would commit suicide, they might get really sad that the 'baby', their would be grandson or whatever is killed as well, but should the woman obey them and let them use her body as an incubator for the fetus? No!

Yes, we should think about each other, and everyone should reflect upon the consequences of their actions. But no person, nor the society, should see another persons body as property and/or have authority over it.

We must get to decide ourselves.


What about vulnerable adults suffering from mental impairment?

Should be treated on case on case basis -- depending on the nature of the impairment in question -- in my opinion.

[Dr Mindbender]

I am due to become a father in October. To me, when i heard the news i lost a little bit of the 'autonomy' that is being thrown around on this thread.

I have forfeited my right to kill myself, no matter how depressed i become.

[manic expression]

Suicide is what happens when pain exceeds resources with coping for pain. That's really what it comes down to. I think it's the ugliest word in the English language, but it's absolutely insane to point fingers at people, losing the will to live isn't a choice. It comes from feeling completely numb and hopeless, and if you've never been there, it's difficult to comprehend. It's a tragedy because it's a reaction to an overwhelmingly painful present, and it robs an individual of their future; in my opinion, it's important to realize that life gives you far more power than death, no matter how difficult it may be at the time.

Oh, and Ulster Socialist, you're obviously clueless on this issue. Just stop. You're making a fool out of yourself when you should be approaching this problem with humility. If you really think having money is a solution to depression, you have no place in this discussion. If you really think a depressed individual is healthy and/or sober, you have no place in this discussion. If you really believe anything you've said on this thread, you have no place in this discussion.

[Sentinel]

I am due to become a father in October. To me, when i heard the news i lost a little bit of the 'autonomy' that is being thrown around on this thread.

I have forfeited my right to kill myself, no matter how depressed i become.

That's a personal moral decision -- an admirable one imo, might I add -- I have no problem with as long as it concerns yourself. But when you start imposing it as a law on others that makes you an authoritarian.

Also, remember that while it's a noble stance that parents should put the kids first, (and certainly beneficial to your offspring in todays world) we communists also strive for a society that actively supports parents and takes part in the raising of all children.

Thus they would be much less dependent of their biological parents, and wouldn't have to solely rely on them like they more or less do today.

[Dr Mindbender]

That's a personal moral decision -- an admirable one imo, might I add -- I have no problem with as long as it concerns yourself. But when you start imposing it as a law on others that makes you an authoritarian.

Also, remember that while it's a noble stance that parents should put the kids first, (and certainly beneficial to your offspring in todays world) we communists also strive for a society that actively supports parents and takes part in the raising of all children.

Thus they would be much less dependent of their biological parents, and wouldn't have to solely rely on them like they more or less do today.

I agree with and fully appreciate your points, sadly we remain in a scarcity society that penalises low income households and mantains a strong social emphasis on the nuclear family ideal.

I never said i'd like a law imposed against suicide, but rather it should be engrained into our culture that once you bring a life into the world, or become integral to the well being of a vulnerable person your self interests and self pity must come second.

Furthermore i'd like to think that under communism, the superior social conditioning would mean that suicide is all but eradicated.

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

There are plenty of reasons to stay alive because of "others" but the relevancy of those reasons depends on the individual. Furthermore, we've all promised ourselves to hold to a commitment. We can't guarantee what we'll do in the future. We aren't in "ultimate" control of ourselves. Environmental circumstances change and determine what is possible. I can't fly by pure force of will. A suicidal person can't continue to live if his body compels him to action in the same way it compels his heart to keep beating, his lungs to keep breathing, etc.

[Dr Mindbender]

If you really think having money is a solution to depression, you have no place in this discussion. .

I've sometimes felt depressed when i was skint but never when i was financially stable.

I can't be accused of foolishness when speaking from perspective.

[manic expression]

I've sometimes felt depressed when i was skint but never when i was financially stable.

I can't be accused of foolishness when speaking from perspective.

I doubt you know what depression is. If you did, you'd know that material wealth doesn't mean jack sh*t. Having your parents' money while having no friends or joy in life is a pretty reliable way to become depressed. People with clinical depression wouldn't feel better if they suddenly won the lottery, they'd feel the same because depression is about a lack of meaning in life, and I shouldn't have to tell you that money can't buy you meaning or happiness. Am I saying depression can't arise from problems caused by poverty? Of course not, what I'm saying is that depression legitimately affects people who aren't poor, and saying anything to the contrary is ignorant nonsense. Once again, you don't know what you're talking about.

[black magick hustla]

There has been acts of suicide from very legitimately sober-minded people. When Lafarge and his lover killed themselves it was not out of psychosis but a very rational attitude. I hate people who patronize other people for taking a perfectly acceptable decision.

[DesertShark]

I am due to become a father in October. To me, when i heard the news i lost a little bit of the 'autonomy' that is being thrown around on this thread.

I have forfeited my right to kill myself, no matter how depressed i become.
I hope you have learned to use protection (birth control pills, condoms, etc.) if you are not planning for a pregnancy.

[#FF0000]

I really thought Emile Durkheim did away with the whole "SUICIDE IS FOR COWARDS" argument back in 1897

[Dr Mindbender]

I hope you have learned to use protection (birth control pills, condoms, etc.) if you are not planning for a pregnancy.

it was intentional.

[Killfacer]

It's not something i think i would ever be capable of doing. It's beyond me, but then i never have been seriously depressed.

I can't really comment on other people committing suicide, because i can't understand the mind set of people who do it. That's why i don't really have a strong opinion either way.

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

I was on a new combination of medications for depression the past few days. It was causing some problems. I stopped one of them and so far so good. Here is a good way to describe it. Thoughts of suicide inexplicably pop into your head. You get a natural motivation from your body to kill yourself in the same way you get a motivation to eat when you're hungry. Obviously, you can choose not to eat, but it's difficult to "stop eating" entirely, if not impossible. The people who stop eating entirely are usually suicidal and one inclination overpowers the other.

Luckily, my depression is particularly inactive. I'm very unmotivated with my depression so I obviously only "thought" things. Depression works in different ways. You always have a lack of enjoyment from life, but it usually isn't entirely gone. However, this weighs the odds in favor of your life being worse. For instance, I can have an overwhelmingly self-focused schedule, with a little bit of productivity. That will allow me to put in say, three times the effort to make myself happy, and less effort to sustain my existence. Our economy doesn't work well with that attitude.

I disagree with the idea that money can't help your depression. It just can't cure it. I've done things I enjoy consistently for long periods, and you eventually get tired of them or they lose their purpose. Having money can avoid additional worries that facilitate a negative mood. Given your depression, you probably can't do much about problems, depending on severity, so you should simply avoid them. Depressed people often avoid work, school, et cetera, because it will only facilitate mood worsening. It's a flight respond within the fight/flight dichotomy.

Realistically, some individuals are "flight" people. They prefer to avoid conflicts naturally, in almost all situations, than fight for something. This doesn't facilitate self-development in a society that forces membership. Changes in society could certainly help facilitate the development of fairer systems. However, given the nature of depression, the depressed will rarely be fighting for their rights. The treatment of depression and mental illness, even in countries with public care, is absolutely horrendous compared to other illnesses. People tend to think life is preferable to a meaningless life, which probably accounts for some of the bias. Realistically, I think incredibly depressed people often continue living simply because of social structures. Then again, in the wild, I think those people would either starve or flourish, depending on capacity.

If society revolved around having no sight, it would be better for the blind. It doesn't work that way so blind people would, mostly, favor the ability to see. Similarly, society doesn't facilitate the environment that some depressed people need so they prefer to address the problem. I would also argue that not just our society, but nature, does not favor depression.

Individuals with depression often sacrifice the long term for the short term. If a habit is developed to remove this sacrifice, they can do better. However, life produces problems that change circumstance. Someone with depression who reads for school three hours a day, after being sick one day, may have considerable difficulty reestablishing their routine.

Most importantly, though, circumstantial changes to help address depression are not necessarily a cure. Some individuals are too chemically imbalanced to realistically function "well" or "optimally" in our society. If normal people could facilitate getting "more pleasure" from positive things and "less pleasure" from negative things, they would probably consider it. There is a balance. If we got too much pleasure from positives, and less from negatives, we would throw our life off balance. This is probably the stereotypical party animal. Perhaps some people are "naturally" this way. If that is the case, they will often be happy in low income situations. However, there are intrinsic needs that, if someone pursues certain pleasures too much over negatives, they will leave unsatisfied. I think the natural result here is the brain switches into a depression mode to try restructure things. If the depression is too significant, because the body is poorly organized, there will be another set of problems. Either way, too much happiness from actions is certainly preferable to the alternative, but I will concede that these "positivity" circumstances are probably being unfairly ignored in modern societies. I'm not sure medical experts even recognize it as an issue aside from drug use.

Depressed people can simply have a genetic predisposition to a bad pleasure/pain ratio, among other things, that needs to be evaluated and changed, where possible.

[black magick hustla]

I dont like to think as depressed people as chemically imbalanced. I think its an ideological artifact of the present order of things to think that to be dischanted with the world means that you are crazy. The people who are pumped with pills right now where the people that used to start revolutions.

[DesertShark]

it was intentional.
Well then, Congratulations!!
My apologies if I offended you, it seemed like from your post that you weren't ready or it wasn't expected.

[Sentinel]

I dont like to think as depressed people as chemically imbalanced. I think its an ideological artifact of the present order of things to think that to be dischanted with the world means that you are crazy. The people who are pumped with pills right now where the people that used to start revolutions.I do see your point here, but remember that it's also not about the world for all of those who are depressed. I mainly take SSRI because I have problems with myself, to the degree that I can't function in society -- probably any kind of -- without them.

The people who now are pumped with pills are also the people who used to blow their brains out.

[black magick hustla]

I do see your point here, but remember that it's also not about the world for all of those who are depressed. I mainly take SSRI because I have problems with myself, to the degree that I can't function in society -- probably any kind of -- without them.

The people who now are pumped with pills are also the people who used to blow their brains out.

:shrugs: Lafarge drank some venom with his wife and he was one of the greatest marxists of the 19th century. Marx was an alcoholic and Bakunin was a lil' crazy. I think if all those people were subjected to psychiatry right now they would be given pills.

[black magick hustla]

Actually, problems "with yourself" are problems about the world. Hence alienation.

[Klaatu]

Think of it this way: everyone has a job to do. That is my definition of the meaning of life.
That is, the good cause of socialism, freedom, justice, etc would stand to lose a valued
supporter, if that person decided willfully to check out. You are needed! When someone feels
like they are needed, suicidal thoughts are sure to vanish.

Also, life is far too short to waste on being depressed. There is so much to do, like fighting
for the cause. Let us roll up our sleeves and get busy!

[pastradamus]

Personally, with the forgivable exception of euthanasia i think it's the coward's way out.

I don't care how bad things seem, to me your life is something which should be preserved within reason if you can mantain your faculties. If you're at school and being bullied, take up self defence and to hell with what the school management say. I say that as someone who often became aggressive at school in response to the dominant playground hegemony. Childhood and school is only a very temporary transitional period anyway. Speaking as someone who's lost many close relatives (to natural causes) i could not in good conscience inflict that sort of grief and stress on my family by my own hand.

I disagree.

I've had this argument with my friends in the past. I know people who have been genuinely depressed and suicidal. Some of which have actually killed themselves totally out of the blue and in complete surprise. A friend of mine killed himself and its totally shocked us as the guy was good at school, had a gorgeous girlfriend and was an extremely popular character who played a guitar that hendrix would be proud of.Then, boom! - out of the blue suffocated himself with a plastic bag with his sleeping father in the next room.
Basically Its a mental illness that may, or may not be obviously showing itself. People dont give those with serious mental conditions the respect they deserve. It makes them think, Act and behave in a different manner to the rest of ourselves.

Being depressed causes us to narrow our view of the world around us to such an extent that reality becomes distorted. The negative in our lives is constantly reinforced and the positive around us is discounted as being irrelevant, or even non existent. Options to help solve the problems of depressive are rejected as having no merit, until it seems as if there is no possible solution.
An unrelenting and oppressive sadness comes over the person which causes a very real pain, as if the pain of the sudden loss of a parent stays with them for weeks, months, and even years. It is as if they are trapped in a dark cave or possibly a tunnel that runs only from their constant pain to somewhere near hell, with no exit to heaven and no exit to joy. They begin to think that there is no relief and that this pain will never end. Tomorrow will be the same, or worse. So to the said people Death may be the only solution...


But I will say to anyone that is considering this prospect that suicide is not a solution, it is an end before a solution can be found. It cannot be considered an option, for an option denotes we have a choice and death robs us of both, option and choice. Death is an irreversible act that does not end the pain, for it remains in those who are left behind. Even people who are totally alone, and take their own lives, transfer their pain to those of us in society who do care, and we do - care!!!

On another note, US, things are not that clean-cut. Childhood bullying as a means of promoting depression. I was bullied in my early school years despite kicking the crap out of anyone who messed with me -I still got bullied psychologically. Though I found a way out of this through my friends and support from others I was able to promote my popularity to exclude me from the "bullied class" of people. I recommend anyone with depression problems open up to people such as their friends. I happen to hang out with very open-minded friends and these people are helpful when Im blue. Everybody gets depressed, not everybody has depression problems. This is whats difficult for people like ourselves who do not have depression problems to understand.

Pastra

[pastradamus]

Actually, problems "with yourself" are problems about the world. Hence alienation.

Alienation being the worst fucking thing in the world. I used to work on my own in a night shift and after doing it for a long time it made me feel alienated, weird and depressed so I changed shift for the sake of my own mental health.

[pastradamus]

As an advocate of absolute individual bodily autonomy I'm of the opinion that it should be up to everyone personally whether they wish to live or not. Society should not interfere, except in the case of children.

Interesting stuff Sentinel. However I believe its the cause of both humanity and of us as leftist to ensure a comrade is alive and in good health as we are losing too many good ones.

[pastradamus]

Actually, problems "with yourself" are problems about the world. Hence alienation.

No, Because someone who is genuinely depressed acts within ones self. The social interaction of someone about to commit the ultimate act of suicide deteriorates greatly and alienation is indeed a by-product of this.

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

"Problems with yourself are problems about the world" if you want to look at it that way. When someone has a chemical imbalance, the world doesn't work in their favor. They're a person who "is not motivated to do anything" and the world doesn't look after those people so they get more depressed. Sure. What if we give the person the things they need to survive? They won't necessarily be happy. People from all kinds of economic backgrounds and social situations have depression. It's not always the result of the environment.

Depression is a "low mood." Denying medications to depressed individuals isn't going to make them revolutionaries. They're depressed because they don't like their circumstances and/or they don't know how to create change. What about therapy? Therapists aren't going to guide you towards your revolutionary goals, I suspect. If "society being capitalist" is what makes you unhappy, they will say "society is capitalist so deal with it." They don't tell someone in a wheelchair his goal of wanting to walk is realistic. They might say, hey, if you want to work towards that goal, sure, but don't rest your personal satisfaction on it.

Is manic depression/bipolar wrongfully treated? Would the people have episodes of anti-capitalist fervor. Yep. They'd have them in the same way a drugged up Christian goes and shoots a bunch of homosexuals.

Psychiatry and Psychology both have problems. If you have a special flu, the doctor says there are 3 possible cures. 1, 2, and 1^2. You either get 1/3 possible solutions to your flu, or you get 3/3. You have the risk with 1 of side effects, but you don't like having the flu. You'd rather take the medicine because the risk is low (antidepressant risks are overplayed). Antidepressants work for some people. Therapy works for some people. Both work for others. Doctors sometimes take patients off antidepressants after recovery to see if they are still needed.

Depressed people don't have the energy to start revolutions. Manic depressed people are just as likely to kill their comrade over a card game as they are to kill a reactionary. Of course, the notion that bipolar people are "incredibly dangerous" varies between cases and is incredibly overplayed. I don't know where the anti-psychiatry and anti-psychology views originated from (they are often in the fields), but they piss me off sometimes. Mental illness is so stigmatized.

Antidepressants are overdiagnosed. True, but the world is all about profit. If you can't afford both therapy and antidepressants, you take the easier one. Furthermore, as soon as someone goes to therapy, they are stigmatized. The "chemical imbalance" factor of depression gives people a way to defend themselves from critics. If they go to therapy, people suddenly start thinking their illness is self-imposed (though they do this is both cases, I'd suggest it's more prevalent in the latter). People don't have the time to properly deal with problems in their life so they want antidepressants. It's not always doctors prescribing them based on symptoms. A smart person can specifically go in to a doctor's office with specific symptoms that are "personal and not testable" in order to get a prescription of something. It's more difficult depending on the doctor/medication, but you can always find the stupidest doctor in the city.

To repeat myself somewhat, there is this understanding of depression. It might be pseudoscienctific, but I consider it a conceptual scheme that is flattering towards the anti-psychiatry crowd.

<Depression>-------<Unsatisfied>-----<Satisfied>-----<Truly "Happy">

I'd suggest we are all somewhere between unsatisfied and truly happy. When unfortunate circumstances occur, we might slip down towards depression. Life skills create the ability to minimize unfortunate circumstances and create positives that balance those negatives.

The reaction to positive/negative stimuli seems to be distinct. Consider:

P+/N- (easily happy not easily upset)
P+/N+ (easily happy and easily upset)
P-/N+ (not easily happy and easily upset)
P-/N- (not easily happy and not easily upset)

Party Animal, Drama Queen, Depressed, Stoic
These categories vary in much more complicated degrees or don't exist. It's just a way of conceptualizing the situation.

If someone is easily upset and not easily made happy, even a significant amount of circumstantial improvements might not counteract the movement towards depression. As someone moves towards depression, "say a happy person with bad luck," they may alter their attitudes. At heart, they might still be a happy person, but they've become an unhappy one. This self-alienation might contribute to their depression subconsciously.

Once someone is depressed, the way they evaluate positives and negatives might be too harmful to make realistic recovery possible. Some people who don't "need" antidepressants receive them for a boost. If they'd gotten their lump checked months ago, they wouldn't need chemo. Now they do.

Some people just need antidepressant treatment. Because it's difficult to distinguish the two circumstances (excluding say someone always happy who suddenly is depressed due to a breakup), doctors recommend therapy and medication (or think it's a medical problem for whatever reason).

I've repeated myself a lot. Medical funding in Canada is public, but it isn't ideal, especially in mental health areas. Antidepressants aren't regulated as properly as they should be or studied enough. There are lots of problems, but part of the inattention towards mental health is due to misconceptions the industry itself perpetuates.

[pastradamus]

Excellant post.

[heiss93]

In Bogdanov's science fiction novel of the utopian Communist Mars, suicide is handled by a government agency. There is no onus attached, physicians attempt to talk the patient out of it, and there is a short waiting period but if the patient is sure, then the government assists in the suicide. I believe this is a rational take on it.

If suicides occur it is the fault of the socioeconomic system that creates a world not worth living in, and not the individual. All ruling classes have opposed suicide because they create worlds not worth living in. If anyone not satisfied with their social position killed themselves it would destroy the social order. Now the bourgeoisie would prefer the disaffected to commit suicide over revolution, but if they can they would avoid both. Of course as revolutionaries we should oppose suicide and instead support revolutionary change. But we should understand Durkheim's sociological analysis as opposed to any mysteries. Marx and Mao both wrote very similar early essays in which they attributed the suicides of young women, not to character flaws or psychosis but to patriarchal relationships.

[ZeroNowhere]

Marx and Mao both wrote very similar early essays in which they attributed the suicides of young women, not to character flaws or psychosis but to patriarchal relationships.Not quite, Marx actually quoted Peuchet on the matter, rather than writing an essay, just adding an introduction and a few brief comments.

[heiss93]

I've only read excerpts on google books, from the introduction they made it seem as Marx's theory of suicide, but maybe they read too much into it assuming that whatever notes he took he agreed with. The same mistake has been made for Lenin's notebooks by the same author. Regardless I think Marx's work and method would support a sociological as opposed to individual analysis of suicide.

http://www.newsandletters.org/Issues/2000/June/6.00_essay.htm

I believe the best answer to the wretched despair that leads to suicide is the words of Leon Trotsky- "Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression, and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

[ZeroNowhere]

No, he did agree with it, I'm just saying that rather than writing an essay of his own on it, he was quoting excerpts from Peuchet's book at length on the matter to make the point. I had read it approximately a week ago, and it's online here (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/09/suicide.htm).

[Atrus]

However I believe its the cause of both humanity and of us as leftist to ensure a comrade is alive and in good health as we are losing too many good ones.

I'm inclined to agree, at least to a certain degree, it's our duty to look after all of those arounds and do all we can.
But ultimately, all we can do is try to help, and at that point I agree with Sentinel, it still all comes down to personal choice. It's their body, it's their life. We can try and make it better for them, but if they still don't want to live, that's entirely up to them.

[NecroCommie]

I would have to agree with atrus.

However, if George W Bush.JR would consider suicide, I would give him a pat in the back and whisper: "go for it!"

[ZeroNowhere]

I would have to agree with atrus.

However, if George W Bush.JR would consider suicide, I would give him a pat in the back and whisper: "go for it!"Yes, because that would sadden his family and friends and not benefit humanity in any way. Lovely.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

It's a dying art.

[Lynx]

Prelude to suicide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swan_song)

[-marx-]

Personally, with the forgivable exception of euthanasia i think it's the coward's way out.

I agree, but... sometimes when people become suicidal they enter a really fucked up state of mind which isn't at all rational. They cant think right and suicide doesn't seem like a bad option, in fact it seems like the only sane option. Things have to get pretty bad for this to happen but it does happen.

But people who have their normal rational mind and do it anyway are weak bastards IMO.

[TC]

1. Some people's lives are not worth living, and the value of life is always and only the value to the person living it.

2. We might think that, life might not be worth living as a terminal cancer patient in constant pain, but it is worth living as someone who just lost the love of their life or whatever, and so, we can choose to live under the later circumstances but not the former, but when *other people* are faced with such a choice, that is up to *them* to decide and we are in no position to impose our values or the values of society onto them...

3. If we were to do so, we would transform them functionally from someone whose self-identified interests are an ends in themselves, to someone who lives to satisfy other's preferences over them. To keep someone alive against their will is to use them for purposes other than their own, to transform their social status from that of an agent to that of a subject, from a person to an object.

4. Children are not special or different in any of these regards we just assume they are because bourgeois justifications for children's property-of-parents/society status is unchallenged because children have no power.

5. Lots of people say they want to kill themselves but wouldn't actually kill themselves, attempt society in ways that are unlikely to be successful. We need to consider this phenomenon in the context of a society where suicide attempts are a culturally accessable way of generating attention and getting interventions. In a society that respected freedom to choose, we would not see this because people wouldn't call the cops to have them committed, they would just say how sorry, disappointed, or angry, they were that their loved one wasn't staying longer.

6. The 'cowards way out' objection is just an appeal to bourgeois moralism: its just a way of privilinging your own preferences. Likewise the 'empathetic euthenasia for terminal patients' exception is just the logically arbitrary morallistic asserition that some forms of suffering more legitimately excuse suicide than others. This is totally arbitrary andagain, points to thinking its okay to impose your own judgements on others against their wills (you judge some lives to be not worth living and only allow those people to take their lives).

7. The idea that mental illnesses exist the same way that physical illnesses do is a myth. While neurological brain abnormalities are real, specific diagnoses are social constructs not things found in the material world, and which are believed to be healthy deviations from the statistical norm, and which are gerrymandered into mental disorder categories, is a value judgment.

[Il Medico]

I personal I think it is an individuals lack of ability to cope with reality. I am not saying that the reasons that lead them to suicide are their fault, because they are not. The causes for for suicide are the oppressiveness of class society. This is created by the class struggle. The ruling class inflicts upon the working class: war, poverty, exploitation, imperialism, and societal norms which suppress individuality. The reaction of people to their oppression is different. Some people become stronger and decide to fight to change this reality, others choose to ignore this reality and believe a fictional reality, and others seek escape this reality. The latter are the ones who choose suicide.

[Misanthrope]

To be honest, I have thought of suicide before. Sometimes this world seems to much. Why should I be able to sleep in a bed while other children can't sleep because bullets are flying over their head? Why should I be able to have a meal while others have died from starvation.

We live in a twisted world, where profit rules over not only compassion but basic human rights. I cannot criticize anyone for committing suicide.

[TheFutureOfThePublic]

Let me guess,all these people listened to MCR.Nah just kidding.If somebody doesnt want to live anymore then i dont see the big deal.Its between them and ther family to discuss.If somebody feels so strongly as to even consider it then chances are they arent going to back down and genuinley just dont want to be here.

[TheFutureOfThePublic]

To be honest, I have thought of suicide before. Sometimes this world seems to much. Why should I be able to sleep in a bed while other children can't sleep because bullets are flying over their head? Why should I be able to have a meal while others have died from starvation.

We live in a twisted world, where profit rules over not only compassion but basic human rights. I cannot criticize anyone for committing suicide.

That is probably the most sense and consideration ive heard from a person on this place

[Bex]

I'm not sure if it still is or not, but here in Canada attempting suicide was considered a criminal offense. Anyway, I view it as a cowardly thing to do although if people want to it's their own choice. Yes it may hurt those close to them, but some people just feel they have no other option. Trust me, I have been in states of severe depression and considered it a few times myself. It's hard, even for the person trying to do it.

I work in the mental health field here in Canada. It was de-criminalized in the 90's however, the police have a right to take someone to hospital if they pose an immediate thread to themselves. At hospital a mental health assessment is done and one can be admitted against their will.

I am very interested in this thread and will post more once I get through the responses/have more time.

[Bex]

Woah, O.K. I take back what I just said - I don't know if I can make it through all these replies, too much to say.

First off, here is where I'm coming from professionally and personally. My brother died by suicide, I myself have battled depression and been very suicidal at times, and I have been working in the mental health field with people who are suicidal for the past five years.

As a family member of someone who has died by suicide, I went through many grief reactions - anger towards him, towards everyone that I thought could have helped but didn't, guild, sadness, yadda yadda. All part of the process.

To clear up misconceptions - statistically suicide does not happen more or less across socioeconomic boundaries, it is highest in LGBTQ and aboriginal populations and among teens and the elderly. Homorevolutionary gave a good analysis of this so I won't go into why those reasons would be.

Mental Health - those who complete suicide do not always have a mental health issue, suicide is an act. Though there seems to be a gross misunderstanding in this thread among certain comrades about the complexities of mental health.

My mental health - my depression is not selfish, or "woe is me" moreover it stems from "the world is a fucked up pile of shit so why bother placing my carbon footprint on it when nothing is going to change." My willingness to fight the good fight comes and goes. That is irrelevant to this post though.

My philosophy/values - when someone really wants to end their life, there's nothing you can do to stop them HOWEVER many people put up flags seeking support when they are CONSIDERING this option and they should receive the support they require. It's true, many times people make this decision at a time that may not have been their worst time - but as others have said, it is not for me to judge what a person can and can't handle.

It is far easier for people to accept euthenasia because it is a response to something physical, but it is naive to disregard mental anguish as not as painful - though I don't see much benefit in creating a "scale of suffering" regardless.

I'll give it a rest for now but can't promise not to write again when I'm caught up. *lol* Hope this helps.

[Bex]

Furthermore I agree with Sentinal on this one. *lol* A person has the right to choose. This does not take away societies responsibility to assist those who are in the process of choosing and may need help seeing other options, but we shouldn't take away people's right to end their lives.

[shadowmare]

Suicide is... Cowardly I believe. WITH The exception of Medical Euthenasia
And Euthenasia only for situations that are otherwise hopeless, For example suffering from a disease that would eventually leave you in a vegetative state, and is otherwise incurable for the time being. It would be easier on everyone in the long run, including yourself to just end it instead of waiting
Suicide for the sake of escaping a hard point in your life that is otherwise something that can be manage however I believe is wrong, ESPECIALLY when it involves taking the lives of others as well. Of course I'm talking about school and workplace shootings, as well as Killing sprees turned Suicides.
Life could always be harder. Parents disagreeing with you, or being Bullied at school are not excuses for the mental pain you would create upon suicide among those who WERE close to you

Suicide to escape some dreadful fate that you brought on yourself (I'm talking the Fascist Fanboys Hitler, though there are other examples as well such as Criminals shooting themself before they can be arrested for Murder or Rape) is the most cowardly of course. Not even having the strength to take whats coming to you after you cause unimaginable suffering yourself, is despicable and lowly.

[communard resolution]

Razors pain you
Rivers are damp
Acids stain you
And drugs cause cramp
Guns aren't lawful
Nooses give
Gas smells awful
You might as well live

(Dorothy Parker)

http://www.nndb.com/people/512/000045377/dorothy75.jpg

[Decolonize The Left]

"To save a man against his will is just like killing." - Horace

Interesting quote to ponder in regards to the discussions in this thread.

- August