How am I supposed to justify this

[Invincible Summer]

This is a bit of an angry rant.


Sometimes I don't even want to deal with fucking idiots out there. You know, the ones who blame "liberals" all the time; or the ones who will constantly proclaim that we must repent for our sins and convert gays, all because Jesus' judgement is upon us; or the ones who vehemently push the "American Dream" and point to people like Barack Obama or some stupid shit.

Basically, I can't fucking stand any more of the right-wing/conservative peopl out there.

As a communist, I want the working class to smash the ruling class - but I honestly don't know if I want to do it for ignorant fucks like I've outlined above. I know this constitutes some of the working class itself, but for fuck's sake it's unbearable to try and talk to some of these people... I don't want to hear about how North Korea or China are "evil Communist regimes," or other stupid uninformed stereotypes. I just want people to fucking open their eyes, ears, and heads BUT THEY DON'T.

The few Communists I've talked to in real life, as well as many people here on RevLeft are always open to discussing different points of view, but most "normal" people i've talked to just can't be open to the idea of communism or even the notion that capitalism is fucked up without mentioning communism.

Sometimes I honestly don't know what the point is of trying to liberate all of us from capitalism if most people just want lots of fucking money and some stupid as fuck car to drive around in and live like the stupid fucking people on the Hills or something. Fuck that shit.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way. What the fuck are we supposed to do?

[Unclebananahead]

Yeah, I get tired of going back and forth with them. It's frustrating and often produces little in the way of results. The best thing then is not to be placed in a situation where you represent your political orientation or group to the general public, that is, a scenario in which you are the ambassador of the movement. Some other task may be more suitable. Then again, perhaps you just need a break from it. I know that in my case, too much exposure to the reactionaries really drives me up the wall, so thus I limit my dealings with them as much as I need to, circumstances allowing. There will be times when they have to be dealt with, but most of the time we don't need to interact with them. Just remember that it's a big world out there with all kinds of people, and when we go out in it to effect change, we will be dealing with and interacting all types, including those not so friendly to our cause.

[h0m0revolutionary]

I think capitaism is doing pretty well for itself, it isn't pursued by unintelligent people, they've made sure their system of economic operation is hegemonic around the globe, that any alternatives are smashed and that they maintain a docile working class, incapable of class conscousness. The latter point is the one you should concern yoursself with.

From religion to ruling class control over both the repressive state apparatus and the means of mental production (education, media etc) the capitalist class constantly regurgitate their ideology.

it's not surprising then, that in a period of relative stability of capitalism (for all the talk of recession do you see it crumbling?) that many working class people don't see an alternative and come to agree with the status quo..

But the important thing is, that we agitate within the limited workers struggles we find and we lead by example. I am an anarchist-communist, i believe that communism; communal living and mutual aid is the instinctive, natural orginisation of human beings. Capitalism with it's greed-is-good mentality and exploitative nature is wholly destructive and I believe, counter to the inherent good and creativity in human nature.

Your arguments may be falling on deaf ears at the moment, but it's our job to keep having them and make progression wherever we can - in industry, in our communities, whatever gains we win we can use as an example of a better world..

[mikelepore]

Maybe people who get frustrated talking to people who won't listen will find a more productive use of their time if they stop trying to persuade the people that they know and try other means of communication. Make a documentary video, write a book or pamphlet, try an original idea for a web site, draw cartoons, print posters, write poems or song lyrics, write book reviews, call the radio call-in programs, send letters-to-the-editor to the newspapers, ask the history teachers of local school if you may be a guest speaker.

[NecroCommie]

Yeah, I agree.

At times like these I would like to thank people of Revleft for their openmindness the kind of which is a rare treat.

[AvanteRedGarde]

Wouldn't people's observation here about the First World working class support the idea that the First World working class is wholly bought-in due to imperialist super-profits? If the Amerikan working simply isn't down for revolution, let alone discussions about it, wouldn't that indicate that they are not a revolutionary vehicle?

[Pogue]

I think its ridiculous to assume you're going to 'convert' workers to socialist thinking simply by arguing with them and 'winning'. I think this ignores history and how revolutions have happened. Workers are not educated through debate alone but through struggle and their natural responses to aggression - i.e. by forming radical unions or forming workers assemblies, in which it is the duty of revolutionaries to talk about radical ideas (which will also develop through struggle naturally) which in these cases will have more gorunding as workers will have realised some of them through the struggle themselves, in which they are educated. You're never going to educate people through words alone, it has to happen through struggle in which our ideas of class solidarity and revolution become apparent to them. We just have to agitate for this. Otherwise, we'd create a revolution simply by leaflet dropping the world and hoping enough workers read the leaflet and agree with it.

I think this is best demonstrated in how the Spanish revolution happened and worked because workers were educated for years through struggle in the CNT union, especially in 1934. The radical union served as the 'school of the revolution', and through struggle and debate within struggle revolutionary ideas emerged. This is contrary to the position taken by the blanquists and Bolsheviks (in practice) who believe 'socialism' could be implemented by a strong willed ruler who was 'clued up' on theory.

[Diagoras]

I grew up in Texas, and for some idiotic reason went to one of the most conservative Baptist colleges in the world for my undergrad(lazy during application time :rolleyes:). This gave me two decades of experience dealing with individuals that believed all sorts of amazingly retarded things, including, but not limited to: denial of the existence of dinosaurs at any point in time (WHILE acknowledging the existence of fossils...?!), belief in a 6,000 year old universe, advocacy of the (re-)establishment of a Dominionist Christian theocracy, "nuke 'em all" neoconservatives that proudly proclaimed that Bush was "too liberal" for them, as well as your standard gay-hating, pseudo-racist, anti-immigrant, Jesus-loving, warmongering, military-worshiping, nationalist, etc beliefs.

The thing I took away from the experience is that while some places are just fucking screwed (namely Waco, Texas, specifically along I-35... *cough* Baylor University *cough*), most places have rational people somewhere that when presented with clear and respectfully-delivered ideas, will be sympathetic, or at least listen. Along with these rational people are also a larger number of not-entirely-rational people that are still not crazed reactionaries. They do not likely have a cogently formed notion of class consciousness, and probably have some authoritarian ideas, but they will admit at least some faults with the system, and can be useful in some arenas. The truly crazy people are almost always in the minority, outside of a few disturbing pockets... they are just very loud, and proud of their ignorance. All you can do is present counter-argument (and counter-organization, where this may apply) so that the rational people, and the people that are semi-rational, will at least not perceive their nonsense as unopposed and a given.

Until conditions arise that allow for our organizing and activities to have a more meaningful impact, we have to at least take some pleasure in the small-scale victories that may occur, and not be disheartened that it doesn't look like we will be able to dismantle capitalism and the state by next Thursday like we planned ;).


P.S.- As far as fighting the revolution "for" some of the most ignorant reactionaries... don't worry. I'm fairly certain that they won't be on our side of the barricades.

[STJ]

I just try to avoid talking to the Right-wings here. They are not gonna change there minds anytime soon.

[AvanteRedGarde]

It seems kinda dumb to insist that the American working people are a revolutionary class when they are obvious not. It seems like people prefer lofty dogma about some unseen intrinsic revolutionary qualities to the obvious.

[LOLseph Stalin]

I sympathize with you Destructicon. I live in a fairly Conservative area(62% of the vote went to the Conservatives last federal election) so I hear this kind of stuff on a daily basis, even from my own friends. It makes me wonder sometimes "why liberate these people from oppression? They don't seem to care that they're being oppressed, in fact they probably enjoy it because they're making money." Also, my friends just seem to think i'm pissed at society because I haven't had the best luck with the workforce. That's part of their reasoning as to why i'm Communist. They're way off.

[Pogue]

It seems kinda dumb to insist that the American working people are a revolutionary class when they are obvious not. It seems like people prefer lofty dogma about some unseen intrinsic revolutionary qualities to the obvious.

If thats true about us, who on the left is not one of these people? If we're like this, then so are you, because if your left wing you believe the working class is the revolutionary class.

[Rjevan]

I know what you mean, destructicon. Some years back I thought this would only be the case here in Germany because our grandparents learned their Nazi lessons too well and passed the ideas on the next generation so it's small wonder that most people are ignorant, worrying intolerant and have some sort of burgeoise basic-rascism.

But now I think it's not so much the Nazi lessons but the capitalist lessons:
Since I remember back I always heard what terrible, godless and inhumane system communism was and is and was told how miserable life in the former soviet states was and what a paradise life in capitalism is. Well, maybe it even is if you are an egoistic ass who only cares about his wealth and lives after the motto "You say other people are poor?
a) Well, is that my problem? Is it? No!"
b) Oh, why are you complaining, don't you know that they will be rewarded in heaven?"
c) So what do you want me to do? Spend my hard-earned money for these slackers? If they would have worked hard enough they would be where I know am, too."

If I just think of the USA where socialist seems to be a swear word and "communism" is some sort of black man (or would it be red man?) who scares not only children but also adults to death by just mentioning its name.
I appears to me that most Americans (and not only them) have absolutely no idea what communism stands for. If I talked to people about my believes without mentioning the terms "socialism"/"communism" they rather often agree with me, some are even like "Hey, now that you're mentioning it... I have actually never thought about this in that way but it totally makes sence...". But as soon as I mention one of this terms you can almost hear the alarm bells ring and see the either terrified, pitying or disgusted look of their eyes and I know what they are thinking about: mass murder, barbaric and bloodthirtsy Russians, Gulags, suffering, missery, the wall, decaying houses and protesting people in the GDR.
An open Nazi attitude sometimes seems to be more socially acceptable than an open communist one.

Capitalism succeeded in presenting communism as "THE EVIL" and almost nobody tries to figure out what excatly it stands for. The term alone should be self-explanatory: communism, Latin communis = together
If I wouldn't have bothered to learn more about it, I would maybe still praise capitalism and cross myself and stop listening when some left-wing kid would open his/her mouth.

So I think we should explain our concrete ideas and try to educate the worker and the common people, too, what our beliefs are and, most important, that we are on their side.
Communism doesn't mean an opressive system worse than the Nazi one, suffering and poverty, far from it, it means freedom and wealth for everybody insted of a few "chosen ones"... and that's the message that must get clear.

[AvanteRedGarde]

If thats true about us, who on the left is not one of these people? If we're like this, then so are you, because if your left wing you believe the working class is the revolutionary class.

I believe the exploited Third World masses are a revolutionary class, not an ambiguous 'working class.'

[LOLseph Stalin]

I believe the exploited Third World masses are a revolutionary class, not an ambiguous 'working class.'

That just made me think of a conversation I overheard at school one day. There was this girl bragging about how her uncle had a company operating in some third world country(can't remember which one). She was bragging about how he was making money while the workers were willing to work for very little, making it easier on her uncle. This girl's friends interfered and got angry about the exploitation thing. The girl's reply: "Of course if they're already poor they don't know the difference between having money and not having it." I seriously wanted to punch this girl in the face. Instead I just got up and walked away. It's people like this that can't be converted.

[Dóchas]

I sympathize with you Destructicon. I live in a fairly Conservative area(62% of the vote went to the Conservatives last federal election) so I hear this kind of stuff on a daily basis, even from my own friends. It makes me wonder sometimes "why liberate these people from oppression? They don't seem to care that they're being oppressed, in fact they probably enjoy it because they're making money." Also, my friends just seem to think i'm pissed at society because I haven't had the best luck with the workforce. That's part of their reasoning as to why i'm Communist. They're way off.

i guess a lot of people dont actually know that they are being oppressed and exploited and think that life is fair because they work and get a wage and drive a nice car and live in a nice house. they are blinded by the material side of capitalism and figure that it is ok as long as their bank account isnt empty. they dont see the sweatshops and child labour and the real results of capitalism. to them it is another news story and charity drive every christmas. they think "oh how awful" and then go back to thinking what to spend their money on. also they were brought up in a comfortable life so why bother change it when things are "fine" the way they are?

[Trystan]

Sometimes I honestly don't know what the point is of trying to liberate all of us from capitalism if most people just want lots of fucking money and some stupid as fuck car to drive around in and live like the stupid fucking people on the Hills or something. Fuck that shit.

. . .What the fuck are we supposed to do?



Dude, nobody is that shallow when you get to know them well. As for them not listening, well I am afraid that's just the way it is. The revolution is not around the corner, and people aren't going to be won over right away, so you just have to persevere. There's your answer.

[LOLseph Stalin]

i guess a lot of people dont actually know that they are being oppressed and exploited and think that life is fair because they work and get a wage and drive a nice car and live in a nice house. they are blinded by the material side of capitalism and figure that it is ok as long as their bank account isnt empty. they dont see the sweatshops and child labour and the real results of capitalism. to them it is another news story and charity drive every christmas. they think "oh how awful" and then go back to thinking what to spend their money on. also they were brought up in a comfortable life so why bother change it when things are "fine" the way they are?

Like my friends. They get their paychecks from work and all their money is always gone within a few days. I still have money from when I lost my last job and that was like the beginning of march!

[AvanteRedGarde]

i guess a lot of people dont actually know that they are being oppressed and exploited and think that life is fair because they work and get a wage and drive a nice car and live in a nice house. they are blinded by the material side of capitalism and figure that it is ok as long as their bank account isnt empty. they dont see the sweatshops and child labour and the real results of capitalism. to them it is another news story and charity drive every christmas. they think "oh how awful" and then go back to thinking what to spend their money on. also they were brought up in a comfortable life so why bother change it when things are "fine" the way they are?

Couldn't you say that they benefit from this exploitation. Otherwise, if capitalism can reasonable provide for the working masses, why revolution at all? Again, how does everyone's observations line up with their politics?

[Dóchas]

Like my friends. They get their paychecks from work and all their money is always gone within a few days. I still have money from when I lost my last job and that was like the beginning of march!

in one way its just sick how they lead their lives and in another its kinda sad. thats all they know!!!! money money money!!!!!

[AvanteRedGarde]

Dude, nobody is that shallow when you get to know them well. As for them not listening, well I am afraid that's just the way it is. The revolution is not around the corner, and people aren't going to be won over right away, so you just have to persevere. There's your answer.

That's an end-times prophecy, not a revolutionary analysis.

[Trystan]

Pardon me?

[Dóchas]

Couldn't you say that they benefit from this exploitation


sure. 20% of humanity benifit while the rest get shit all



if capitalism can reasonable provide for the working masses, why revolution at all?


like i said above only the minority of the working class are actually benifiting from being exploited



how does everyone's observations line up with their politics?


well i guess it varies on what your politics are. if you belive in one idea you may look at it completely differently than someone else

[punisa]

This is a bit of an angry rant.


Sometimes I don't even want to deal with fucking idiots out there. You know, the ones who blame "liberals" all the time; or the ones who will constantly proclaim that we must repent for our sins and convert gays, all because Jesus' judgement is upon us; or the ones who vehemently push the "American Dream" and point to people like Barack Obama or some stupid shit.

Basically, I can't fucking stand any more of the right-wing/conservative peopl out there.

As a communist, I want the working class to smash the ruling class - but I honestly don't know if I want to do it for ignorant fucks like I've outlined above. I know this constitutes some of the working class itself, but for fuck's sake it's unbearable to try and talk to some of these people... I don't want to hear about how North Korea or China are "evil Communist regimes," or other stupid uninformed stereotypes. I just want people to fucking open their eyes, ears, and heads BUT THEY DON'T.

The few Communists I've talked to in real life, as well as many people here on RevLeft are always open to discussing different points of view, but most "normal" people i've talked to just can't be open to the idea of communism or even the notion that capitalism is fucked up without mentioning communism.

Sometimes I honestly don't know what the point is of trying to liberate all of us from capitalism if most people just want lots of fucking money and some stupid as fuck car to drive around in and live like the stupid fucking people on the Hills or something. Fuck that shit.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way. What the fuck are we supposed to do?

You outlined a very good point there. I believe all of us feel it in some degree, especially when we invest our energy into educating others.
Now, we all follow some different sub-socialist genre, but I can tell you from just my personal observations.

We can discuss as much details as possible when discussing the topic among us comrades, but when dealing with stubborn and uneducated parts of the working class, we should pursue other strategies.
I usually put emphasise on the point that in the socialist system they would live - better.
Now such an argument might result in your listener taking interest in what you want to say (people always like to live better, exploit that)

We must be aware that majority of people don't actually want to be political, they just want to live normal and rich lives, and when saying "rich" I'm not exclusively alluding to the material wealth.

If I have a religious person in front of me, I must be a strategist. Shouting "religion is a lie" will usually just trigger his/her defensive mechanism and I'll fail miserably.
The approach in such a situation is to go along sidelines, discussing various points which eventually will lead to proof that organized religion is nothing more then just a farse.

If we could get a delivery of dozen people who have been set to "reset", our job would be an easy one. Ofcourse, if we have arguments up our sleeves.
Unfortunately this is not so, the people that we eventually deal with have been brainwashed for years and years and to them we are just another organized group that is trying to spread its influence, presumably for our own hidden benefits.

Also, stating to a potential comrade that 99% of the world is capitalist world and that "somehow" a bunch of us will soon change it all to socialism makes us look ridiculous and somewhat crazy or radical.
Your average person won't even consider joining such a crazy stunt. Personally I like to explain that this can be accomplished and that its easier then it looks. Well, then again that's just me, cause I actually do naively believe the capitalism could be overturned rather soon :lol:

Bottom line comrade destructicon500, don't be so angered by everything that comes with your choice. You've chosen to be a socialist and now you'll have to endure it.
If you think about it, you'll see that once you go "red" there ain't going back comrade :cool:

Call me old school, but I'll suggest to you what some more expert socialists suggested to me when I was having the same doubts as you have right now - learn, study, research, question.
These are our weapons, we must use them and fight with it. After all, we are fighting for the world where human knowledge and intellect will be represented as the traits of respect, not material wealth.

[Invincible Summer]

I think its ridiculous to assume you're going to 'convert' workers to socialist thinking simply by arguing with them and 'winning'. I think this ignores history and how revolutions have happened. Workers are not educated through debate alone but through struggle and their natural responses to aggression - i.e. by forming radical unions or forming workers assemblies, in which it is the duty of revolutionaries to talk about radical ideas (which will also develop through struggle naturally) which in these cases will have more gorunding as workers will have realised some of them through the struggle themselves, in which they are educated. You're never going to educate people through words alone, it has to happen through struggle in which our ideas of class solidarity and revolution become apparent to them. We just have to agitate for this. Otherwise, we'd create a revolution simply by leaflet dropping the world and hoping enough workers read the leaflet and agree with it.

I think this is best demonstrated in how the Spanish revolution happened and worked because workers were educated for years through struggle in the CNT union, especially in 1934. The radical union served as the 'school of the revolution', and through struggle and debate within struggle revolutionary ideas emerged. This is contrary to the position taken by the blanquists and Bolsheviks (in practice) who believe 'socialism' could be implemented by a strong willed ruler who was 'clued up' on theory.

I don't think that we can just talk our way to the revolution, and I don't just stand on a street corner like some crazy-ass Evangelist d-bag preaching the "good word." I'm just saying that from my observations and experiences of the kind of people I outlined in my first post, it's really discouraging.

And how do we get people into radical unions if they all think unions are for "liberals" or "goddamn socialists," or just plain useless?


Dude, nobody is that shallow when you get to know them well. As for them not listening, well I am afraid that's just the way it is. The revolution is not around the corner, and people aren't going to be won over right away, so you just have to persevere. There's your answer.

Yeah, true, if I know them well, then I'll know that maybe they'd prefer to live in a downtown loft instead of an LA mansion. Seriously, people around my age (especially where I live, admittedly in a fairly well-to-do area) are generally a bunch of wannabe-yuppie consumer-capitalist shits (if not yoga-practicing, organic food buying, Eckhart Tolle-reading, wannabe-hippie shits) and don't give a shit about anyone else but themselves. Lots of my friends follow that whole "Libertarian" thing (pretty much political selfishness), and a bunch of girls I know just don't care about politics and would rather bother themselves with America's Next Top Model and stuff like that. I'm not stereotyping - these are people I know.


Lots of text

Thanks for the lengthy reply punisa. I don't think it's the way I'm talking to people (as I mentioned earlier, my rant was based on both observations of people, as well as actual experiences with people), but just that I'm so disgusted with the level of self-centeredness and callous attitude towards others that I don't know how to justify being a communist since so many people are like this.

I will take your advice to heart though, next time I'm debating one of my Libertarian friends.

[Forward Union]

I think its ridiculous to assume you're going to 'convert' workers to socialist thinking simply by arguing with them and 'winning'. I think this ignores history and how revolutions have happened. Workers are not educated through debate alone but through struggle and their natural responses to aggression - i.e. by forming radical unions or forming workers assemblies, in which it is the duty of revolutionaries to talk about radical ideas (which will also develop through struggle naturally) which in these cases will have more gorunding as workers will have realised some of them through the struggle themselves, in which they are educated. You're never going to educate people through words alone, it has to happen through struggle in which our ideas of class solidarity and revolution become apparent to them. We just have to agitate for this. Otherwise, we'd create a revolution simply by leaflet dropping the world and hoping enough workers read the leaflet and agree with it.

I think this is best demonstrated in how the Spanish revolution happened and worked because workers were educated for years through struggle in the CNT union, especially in 1934. The radical union served as the 'school of the revolution', and through struggle and debate within struggle revolutionary ideas emerged. This is contrary to the position taken by the blanquists and Bolsheviks (in practice) who believe 'socialism' could be implemented by a strong willed ruler who was 'clued up' on theory.

This.

Also what is wrong with people wanting money and cars? Socialism became so popular in the 3rd/2nd world partly because it's appeal to plenty, and it's ability to produce things more efficiently than capitalism.

[Invincible Summer]

This.

Also what is wrong with people wanting money and cars? Socialism became so popular in the 3rd/2nd world partly because it's appeal to plenty, and it's ability to produce things more efficiently than capitalism.


Nothing is wrong with wanting nice things, unless it's just about status, which IMO it is, in most cases.

[LOLseph Stalin]

Nothing is wrong with wanting nice things, unless it's just about status, which IMO it is, in most cases.

People who just want things for status sicken me. It's like "Oh, I have a better car and better clothes so that must mean i'm a better person". My friend even admitted once to judging people by their clothes. I just glared at her.

[The Idler]

I find Jesus Christ: The Gospels (Revolutions) (Paperback) by Terry Eagleton (http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Christ-Revolutions-Terry-Eagleton/dp/1844671763/) a good place to start unravelling reactionary preconceptions.

In this new presentation of the Gospels, Terry Eagleton makes a powerful and provocative argument for Jesus Christ as a social, political and moral radical, a friend of anti-imperialists, outcasts and marginals, a champion of the poor, the sick and immigrants, and as an opponent of the rich, religious hierarchs, and hypocrites everywhere—in other words, as a figure akin to revolutionaries like Robespierre, Marx, and Che Guevara.Maybe follow this with War is a Racket (http://www.amazon.com/War-Racket-Antiwar-Americas-Decorated/dp/0922915865/) (memoirs) by General Smedley Butler.
Originally printed in 1935, War Is a Racket is General Smedley Butler's frank speech describing his role as a soldier as nothing more than serving as a puppet for big-business interests. In addition to photos from the notorious 1932 anti-war book The Horror of It by Frederick A. Barber, this book includes two never-before-published anti-interventionist essays by General Butler. The introduction discusses why General Butler went against the corporate war machine and how he exposed a fascist coup d'etat plot against President Franklin Roosevelt. Widely appreciated and referenced by left- and right-wingers alike, this is an extraordinary argument against war - more relevant now than ever.There are many more books, I will look into compiling a reading list for reactionaries sometime.

[Uppercut]

conservatives really piss me off. Most of the students at my school are right wing idiots who are pro-war, anti-choice, and anti-left. it's people like these that are holding society back from greatness. They just keep telling us that "socialism doesn't work, it doesn't work, never worked, never will, etc." Well, it never will happen if the public doesn't think we can pull it off. That's what they don't get.