Titoism

[Uppercut]

Anyone else here into titoism? I really appreciate the guy for standing up to Stalin's aggresion and for promoting cooperative, rather than state ownership. To me, this is what really communism is (run by councils of the people) and not the stalinist regime

[communard resolution]

I was very much into it not too long ago (see my avatar), and I still think Tito did a very good job regarding the circumstances. Of course, there's several sides to every story.

I recently found out about a group of Yugoslavian Marxists who set out to change Yugoslavia towards a more authentic Marxism with Tito's system as a starting point. As Stalinist and post-Stalininst regimes go, their actions weren't always met with approval by the powers that be.

What I find interesting is that this was a fairly unique situation, and it begs the question to what extent it would have been possible to reform/gradually decentralise a system such as Tito's. Did the framework of Titoism allow for any further development to the left/towards authentic socialism, or were the efforts of the 'Praxis School' doomed to failure from the getgo?

With this in mind, you're very welcome contribute to my thread:

LINK (http://www.revleft.com/vb/titoism-and-praxis-t105438/index.html?t=105438)

[Madvillainy]

Well he was a stalinist who just happened to dislike stalin and the ussr and decided to side with the united states instead. He also murdered and imprisoned quite a few trotskyists and other political dissidents. Not to mention that 'market socialism' is shit.

[communard resolution]

He also murdered and imprisoned quite a few trotskyists and other political dissidents

No doubt they would have done the same to him and his followers had the tables been turned. But let's not dwell on this too much. Anti-revisionist style denial of dirty deeds, shady deals, and crimes is getting a bit boring these days.


Not to mention that 'market socialism' is shit.Why do you think it's shit and what are in your view some of the negative effects of this particular system upon workers?

[mykittyhasaboner]

Well he was a stalinist who just happened to dislike stalin and the ussr and decided to side with the united states instead.


He didn't "dislike the Ussr" he participated in the october revolution for fucks sake. He may have had his qualms with Stalin but Tito never sided with the USA, they simply had decent diplomatic relations as well as established trade. They weren't allies with either of the two camps.


Not to mention that 'market socialism' is shit.
Perhaps your correct in pointing out (as cleverly as you did!) that there are some faults to opening up your economy to the west; because that only brings you debt.

[Madvillainy]

Why do you think it's shit

It's shit because it's capitalism with red flags and socialist buzzwords.



and what are in your view some of the negative effects of this particular system for workers?

The continued exploitation of workers! (Being subject to supply and demand and market forces etc etc). Also how will market socialism get us closer 2 communism? :confused:

[PeaderO'Donnell]

Well he was a stalinist who just happened to dislike stalin and the ussr and decided to side with the united states instead. He also murdered and imprisoned quite a few trotskyists and other political dissidents. Not to mention that 'market socialism' is shit.


I really hate Tito.

Having said that he wasnt a Stalinist...Infact he was EXTREMELY brutal in wiping them out. Most of those he wiped out were Chetniks (somewhere between the Maknovists and the Black Hundreds- or maybe they were in reality what the Leninist imagination would have the Maknovists be) and Stalinists.

But mainly Stalinists.

[bcbm]

Can this be moved to History? It has nothing to do with contemporary working-class politics.

[redarmyfaction38]

Can this be moved to History? It has nothing to do with contemporary working-class politics.

i'm not sure your right with all the isms being thrown about.

lets have a look at chavez for a start, a progressive for sure, but he has held back "independent revolutionary action" by the working class, he hasn't been as brutal as stalin, but he has used "state forces".
maybe this discussion on tito can help us understand the nature of "third way socialism", the benefits to the former yugoslavia and the price of those benefits for the working class.

just a thought.

[punisa]

Well he was a stalinist who just happened to dislike stalin and the ussr and decided to side with the united states instead. He also murdered and imprisoned quite a few trotskyists and other political dissidents. Not to mention that 'market socialism' is shit.


Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about.
-Having normal relationships with US is taking sides is it? I guess you are also pro-cuban economic embargo, right?
-murdering and imprisoning political dissidents was usually the only way to save your own head in those days. This is rubbish.
- Market socialism was "shit"? If you ever had a chance to live in such "shit" you'd cry your eyes out to bring it back instead of some real manure that kicked in after the collapse of Yugoslavia.
In the short history of any socialist attempts on this planet, and there were not many, this shit was probabbly the best and most humane system I can think off.

[bcbm]

maybe this discussion on tito can help us understand the nature of "third way socialism", the benefits to the former yugoslavia and the price of those benefits for the working class.

just a thought.

A discussion on Tito is a discussion of a historical figure and historical events and, as such, a discussion for the history Forum.

[communard resolution]

A discussion on Tito is a discussion of a historical figure and historical events and, as such, a discussion for the history Forum.

Some moderator please deliver bcbm from his pain and move this to the History forum.

[bcbm]

Thank you for your concern for my well-being.

[Uppercut]

Market socialism seems like the most useful and best performing socialist system. it utilizes supply and demand to make the consumers happy while still utilizing worker control and decision making.