serious anarchists

[danyboy27]

you know, i always been holding stuff against anarchist, not necessarly for their core idea, but mainly beccause i rarely met any serious ones before to be on that forum. the only one i barely met where lifestylist, or on the tv with black ski mask breaking glasses and stuff.

is there any groups or anarchist that are serious, hard working people and that arnt life stylist?

to me,. it feel that being an anarchist is almost connected with that whole lifestylist structure, and i dont really like that.

i think that technocracy+anarchy= win, and i dont have any problem to get along with technocrat, but how come i cant really find any non-lifestylist anarchist except on that forum?

[Bud Struggle]

i think that technocracy+anarchy= win, :thumbup:

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

I think Liberty and solidarity seem to be made up of brutally honest killjoys who will inform you that dressing as a ninja and having a shit haircut and bragging about it is counter productive.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

is there any groups or anarchist that are serious, hard working people and that arnt life stylist?

Me.

Others.

Millions.

[Jack]

[QUOTE=spetnaz21;1419608]is there any groups or anarchist that are serious, hard working people and that arnt life stylist?QUOTE]

Odds are if you're in a group you aren't a lifestylist.

But for shits and giggles:
Northeastern Federation of Anarchist Communists (NE US): www.nefac.net (http://www.nefac.net)

Workers Solidarity Movement (Ireland): www.wsm.ie (http://www.wsm.ie)

Zabalaza Anarchist Communist Federation (South Africa): www.zabalaza.net (http://www.zabalaza.net)

National Labor Confederation (Spain): www.cnt.es (http://www.cnt.es)

National Labor Confederation (France): www.cnt-f.org (http://www.cnt-f.org)

Italian Syndicalist Union (Italy): www.usiait.it (http://www.usiait.it)

Central Organization of the Workers of Sweden (Sweden): www.sac.se (http://www.sac.se)

Free Workers Union (Germany): www.fau.org (http://www.fau.org)

Argentinan Libertarian Federation (Argentina): http://www.libertario.org.ar/

Libertarian Alternative (France): http://www.alternativelibertaire.org/

Libertarian Communist Alternative (Lebanon): http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/inter/albadil.html

Libertarian Struggle (Brazil): http://www.lutalibertaria.hpg.ig.com.br/index.html

Federation of Anarchist Communists (Italy): http://www.fdca.it/

Anarchist Federation (Britain): www.afed.org (http://www.afed.org)

Iberian Anarchist Federation (Spain/Portugal): http://www.nodo50.org/tierraylibertad/

Italian Anarchist Federation (Italy): http://federazioneanarchica.org/

Auca Libertarian Socialism (Argentina): http://www.nodo50.org/auca/

Uruguayan Anarchist Federation (Uruguay): http://www.nodo50.org/fau/

And hundreds of others. The lifestylists can only really give you Crimethinc.

[Pogue]

Erm, yeh. Theres loads. No, I don't wear bondage pants, have red hair and go to hardcore kids. But I don't think that excludes you from being an anarchist anyway. I don't think I've ever met an lifestylist, because i'm involved in workers struggles and the like, class struggle politics. Lfestylism is just a stereotype.

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

Erm, yeh. Theres loads. No, I don't wear bondage pants, have red hair and go to hardcore kids. But I don't think that excludes you from being an anarchist anyway. I don't think I've ever met an lifestylist, because i'm involved in workers struggles and the like, class struggle politics. Lfestylism is just a stereotype.

When I'm in London yall will laugh from some of the lifestylist stories I have. Laugh and cry.

[Pogue]

When I'm in London yall will laugh from some of the lifestylist stories I have. Laugh and cry.

Ha :D

I can say I am blessed. I have people who assume I am some sort of lifestylist when I say I am an anarchist. I've always seen it as the libertarian strand of the socialist movement myself, I've never had any problems with people thinking 'LIFESTYLIST!'. I was brought up in the tradition of unions and so I immediately caught on with anarcho-syndicalism though, so I never had to wade through the whole 'dumpster diving' shit, although I've read alot of Crimethinc bollocks and found it thoroughly shit.

[h0m0revolutionary]

Anarchist Federation (Britain): www.afed.org (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.afed.org)

Yeah check those guys out! I hear they're bloody great :p

[Jack]

I had to lecture some kid in my Astronomy class for reading a crimethinc book.

[Forward Union]

www.anarkismo.net

[Havet]

Me.

Others.

Millions.



this

[Invincible Summer]

There are quite a few lifestylists where I live... a lot of people in the crust punk scene here.


But you're right in a way that lifestylist anarchists get tagged as what all anarchists are like, which is unfortunate.

The real anarchists are most likely the ones that don't "look like" anarchists.

[Ele'ill]

A real anarchist?

I tend to like the people that don't spout quotes from books on labor theories or talk about what revolution means based on cultures that are a hundred years old.

I like people that don't quite have it all figued out. I like people that challenge their own beliefs. I consider these people anarchists.



I don't know what a lifestylist is. Not buying Nike, Gap, etc..? Yeah i'm a lifestylist. I live my life based on my beliefs.

Someone that criticises all the worker's rights violations that corporations commit and then gives them money for their product is a hypocritical asshole. THEY are the lifestylist. And I know it cannot all be avoided but atleast make a fucking attempt.

I don't care if crust punks dress up in weird outfits and do weird things. I think that's pretty cool. I wouldn't say that all of them are anarchists but many are. Many of the crust punks are by nature nomadic squatters. I have solo traveled and seen these squatter camps in the middle of nowhere. Ever field dress and eat an opossum? I like the ideas they have.

[danyboy27]

its reconforting to ear all that from you guy, got really big problem to identifying myself to that whole cliché of adoring punk music, dying my hair red and shouting insult to my landlord when neighbor complain about the music that is too loud.

[Bud Struggle]

Anarchists seem to definitely be second class citizens around RevLeft. Gotta make sure that no infidels are on the forum when Joe Stalin gets resurrected from the Dead.

[Incendiarism]

I had to lecture some kid in my Astronomy class for reading a crimethinc book.

Wow, nice. You probably sounded like a patronizing jerk.

That said, there are a lot of sincere anarchists, but good luck finding them.

[mykittyhasaboner]

Anarchists seem to definitely be second class citizens around RevLeft. Gotta make sure that no infidels are on the forum when Joe Stalin gets resurrected from the Dead.

Err, that's a bit of an erroneous assumption.

--


Anarchists are serious, the ones who aren't serious are just people claiming to be anarchists. Duh.

[RGacky3]

I don't think I've mett anyone thats assumed I'm an Anarchist, or that would call me out as one in a crowd. I'd venture to say that the vast majority of Anarchists are not lifestyle, they go to work in the morning, drink coffee, go to the gym after, get a beer at the bar, play pool, thats in western countries, in poor countries they live like everyone else does.

I never understood why people (very few relatively who call themselfs anarchists) do the lifestyle things, like freegens or whatever, I live in a first world country, I make decent money for having a working class job, and I enjoy the benefits of living in an first world country, pretending to be something your not, does'nt change anything. Class organization and solidarity is what changes things.


is there any groups or anarchist that are serious, hard working people and that arnt life stylist?

The vast majority of them. I have a feeling you hav'nt mett many actual Anarchists. Also some Anarchists (like me) don't use the word to refer to myself and what I do (as far as any workplace action I might do), the IWW does'nt refer to itself as Anarchists although it is essencially anarcho-syndicalist. To my its really pointless to label things, its much better to just describe, like when people talk aobut the IWW, I just say its a Labor Union who's goal is more direct worker control of the workplace, which is true.


i think that technocracy+anarchy= win, and i dont have any problem to get along with technocrat, but how come i cant really find any non-lifestylist anarchist except on that forum?

Technocracy is a economic model, in my opinion of the old Utopian sort, anarchism is'nt, anarchism is essencailly a set of principles that can be applied to many situations.

Join the IWW :), you'll find plenty of them there, and who knows, maybe you'll get a organized workplace with better conditions through it and some work.

[StalinFanboy]

i had to lecture some kid in my astronomy class for reading a crimethinc book.
oh shit! Someone's not reading the proper anarchist theory.

[Os Cangaceiros]

oh shit! Someone's not reading the proper anarchist theory.

Get that lad some Malatesta, and fast!

[Ele'ill]

First, I'm assuming that we're not talking about punk kids.


I never understood why people (very few relatively who call themselfs anarchists) do the lifestyle things, like freegens or whatever, I live in a first world country, I make decent money for having a working class job, and I enjoy the benefits of living in an first world country,

Because people actually living a lifestyle (in the same way that you are living your first world working class lifestyle) that greatly conflicts with modern capitalist culture to the point where they are essentially removed from every day life based on their beliefs means that they shouldn't be considered anarchists? I think they've sacrificed the same if not more of themselves to a cause than most working class people.



pretending to be something your not, does'nt change anything.

There is an assload of people that live in the first world that don't recieve the benefits of living in the first world.



Class organization and solidarity is what changes things.

Solidarity and organization without action are friends at a bar after work.

[ls]

Because people actually living a lifestyle (in the same way that you are living your first world working class lifestyle) that greatly conflicts with modern capitalist culture to the point where they are essentially removed from every day life based on their beliefs means that they shouldn't be considered anarchists? I think they've sacrificed the same if not more of themselves to a cause than most working class people.

If you're referring to freegans, that's ridiculous and you KNOW it.


There is an assload of people that live in the first world that don't recieve the benefits of living in the first world.

Absolutely, and it's deeply unfortunate for them and we're working to fix that, not just in the first world but all over at the end of the day.


Solidarity and organization without action are friends at a bar after work.

Proper solidarity involves action.

[Ele'ill]

If you're referring to freegans, that's ridiculous and you KNOW it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeganism
Freeganism is an anti-consumerist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-consumerism) lifestyle whereby people employ alternative living strategies based on "limited participation in the conventional economy and minimal consumption of resources". Freegans "embrace community, generosity, social concern, freedom, cooperation, and sharing in opposition to a society based on materialism, moral apathy, competition, conformity, and greed."[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeganism#cite_note-freegan-0) The lifestyle involves salvaging discarded, unspoiled food from supermarket dumpsters, known as dumpster diving (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumpster_diving). The foods may have passed their display date, but haven't passed their edible date. Freegans salvage the food as a political statement, rather than out of need.

Why not? That doesn't sound extremely ridiculous to me. It won't change the world but if it helps them sleep at night then there's no harm done.

I wasn't thinking of freegans specifically.




Absolutely, and it's deeply unfortunate for them and we're working to fix that, not just in the first world but all over at the end of the day.

Who are you refering to when you say 'we're working' and what is this group(s) doing?




Proper solidarity involves action.

Let me rephrase. Action without impact is easier on the balls.

[ls]

>lifestyle<

Why not? That doesn't sound extremely ridiculous to me. It won't change the world but if it helps them sleep at night then there's no harm done.

Because you said:

I think they've sacrificed the same if not more of themselves to a cause than most working class people.

And you just have no idea what you're saying by saying that.



Who are you refering to when you say 'we're working'

We as in the people that are working towards destroying the unfair system. There are a lot that aren't working consciously towards destroying it, but that doesn"t necessarily dictate that they aren't doing a great deal to help destroy it (as believers in the need of a proletarian vanguard believe - everyone MUST be "conscious" in the class-struggle to have a positive effect, with massive disagreements on the definition of that consciousness of course).



and what is this group(s) doing?

http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1411452&postcount=16



Let me rephrase. Action without impact is easier on the balls.

My balls hurt after sitting down for too long if that helps.

[Ele'ill]

And you just have no idea what you're saying by saying that.

Yeah I do. Because I said it.





We as in the people that are working towards destroying the unfair system.

What have you done?


There are a lot that aren't working consciously towards destroying it, but that doesn"t necessarily dictate that they aren't doing a great deal to help destroy it

I agree that most of the first world's population lives in a lull which helps destroy it. Soccer mom's buying into the greenwashing of america and purchasing bamboo flooring because bamboo grows so fast yet they can't even imagine where the stuff was made and what worker's rights violations took place.

I think that if people are consious and want to live an alternative lifestyle then its doing more good than harm.








http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1411452&postcount=16

Any of those groups, institutions, organizations, etc.. that are working towards a radical alteration in society are as lifestylist at this point as freegans (as an example). This is not an insult to them.

[ls]

Yeah I do. Because I said it.

Then please think about it, because you come off as someone who is either forcefully ignorant or stupid.



What have you done?

Admittedly not as much as some on these boards, who are active every single day doing things to build solidarity in their communities, but I do some work in the groups listed in my signature to try and build that.


I agree that most of the first world's population lives in a lull which helps destroy it. Soccer mom's buying into the greenwashing of america and purchasing bamboo flooring because bamboo grows so fast yet they can't even imagine where the stuff was made and what worker's rights violations took place.

I'm sure you thought you were smart by saying that, but I think you know what I was getting at.


I think that if people are consious and want to live an alternative lifestyle then its doing more good than harm.

Not when they - as many do, confuse their lifestylism for being as important as or more so than the class struggle.



Any of those groups, institutions, organizations, etc.. that are working towards a radical alteration in society are as lifestylist at this point as freegans (as an example). This is not an insult to them.

Insult or not it's completely false, they are completely divorced in importance, completely and absolutely.

[x359594]

...got really big problem to identifying myself to that whole cliché of adoring punk music, dying my hair red and shouting insult to my landlord when neighbor complain about the music that is too loud.

That's the new stereotype. The old one was of a guy in black cape wearing a black slouch hat and carrying a bowling ball bomb with a sizzling fuse.

[Ele'ill]

Then please think about it, because you come off as someone who is either forcefully ignorant or stupid.

Sure there are people that do more meaningful things to move society forward. I just wouldn't place someone who created an alternative community and lives that way at the bottom of the barrel. Sometimes the only thing you can do to resist is step away from the toxic culture. I'm sure the mere action of salvaging food from dumpsters is more than many on this board have done.





Admittedly not as much as some on these boards, who are active every single day doing things to build solidarity in their communities, but I do some work in the groups listed in my signature to try and build that.

How long are we going to try to build solidarity?






I'm sure you thought you were smart by saying that, but I think you know what I was getting at.

I honestly thought you were refering to complacent acceptance.




Not when they - as many do, confuse their lifestylism for being as important as or more so than the class struggle.

There are many things in life more important than class struggle. Figuring out your personal ethical boundries. What you are willing to support. Do you have a problem with companies stomping all over workers? Stop supporting them by buying their shit. Tired of getting fucked by skyrocketing food prices? Dumpster half your grocery list. Gas prices? Don't own a fucking car! Hate the idea of landlords? Squat. Or live out of your car. I didn't own a car for two years. I loved it. Its not practical for EVERYONE to do this but its what worked for me.
How does their lifestylism(:rolleyes:) have anything to do (good or bad) with class struggle?









Insult or not it's completely false, they are completely divorced in importance, completely and absolutely.

How are they different?

[Jack]

Petty bourgeois individualism and a hatred of the class struggle, in favor of self serving crap?

Shit OP, Mari3L just proved your point.

[Ele'ill]

Petty bourgeois individualism and a hatred of the class struggle, in favor of self serving crap?



Where did I say anything about individualism or a hatred of class struggle?


Or mention anything even slightly resembling bourgeois?


Edit: I didn't mean to imply that freeganism (as an example) is enough. Many people that i've met in that whole spectrum from freeganism to squatter have been involved in other projects. These people are NOT book collective groupies or crust punks.

[RGacky3]

Because people actually living a lifestyle (in the same way that you are living your first world working class lifestyle) that greatly conflicts with modern capitalist culture to the point where they are essentially removed from every day life based on their beliefs means that they shouldn't be considered anarchists? I think they've sacrificed the same if not more of themselves to a cause than most working class people.


I'm not saying their not Anarchists, and I respect them as Anarchists. But to me, doing that style, kind of counter culture or whatever, is kind of pointless. I agree most working class people don't sacrifice themself to a cause, and I respect people who do, however I think removing yourself from every day life is'nt really doing much for the cause. if one is (I'm not saying anyone here is) simply a lifestylist, and not into class struggle, and just wants to live their life that way, then thats fine too, nothing wrong with that, just don't pretend you a revolutionary


There is an assload of people that live in the first world that don't recieve the benefits of living in the first world.

I compleatly agree, but if you do, then enjoy them, while at the same time try to get them for everyone else.


Solidarity and organization without action are friends at a bar after work.

Yes I agree, action as in direct worker action, being a freegen for example, is not action, removing yourself from mainstream (I hate to use that word) society, is not action.

But there are very few people that do that, so its not like its a problem in the anarchist movement in my view.


I think that if people are consious and want to live an alternative lifestyle then its doing more good than harm.


Theres nothing wrong with alternative lifestyle, if you want to live wahtever yo uwant go for it, just don't pretend that by doing it your a revolutionary. The revolutionaries are in the union halls and the communities.


Sometimes the only thing you can do to resist is step away from the toxic culture. I'm sure the mere action of salvaging food from dumpsters is more than many on this board have done.


I've never slavaged food from a dumpster, because Ive always had access to clean food. Salveging food from a dumpster does NOTHING to forward socialism, or weaken Capitalism or the state, all it does is make you a wierdo (in my eyes at least). Many many people on this board have helped organize direct action, or taken part in direct action, things that really actually change peoples situation, and sometimes even shifts power. I have done a little, many here have done much more.


There are many things in life more important than class struggle. Figuring out your personal ethical boundries. What you are willing to support. Do you have a problem with companies stomping all over workers? Stop supporting them by buying their shit. Tired of getting fucked by skyrocketing food prices? Dumpster half your grocery list. Gas prices? Don't own a fucking car! Hate the idea of landlords? Squat. Or live out of your car. I didn't own a car for two years. I loved it. Its not practical for EVERYONE to do this but its what worked for me.
How does their lifestylism(:rolleyes:) have anything to do (good or bad) with class struggle?


I agree, for example, having an income, a roof over my head, and food on the table is more important to me than class struggle (although sometimes they go hand in hand), my family is more important to me than class struggle and so on.

Heres the thing, lifestylism does'nt change anything really, its a bizzare non-useful form of protest. If you can afford a nice place, why the hell would you squat? You have to live much less comfortable just to protest landlords? No ones gonna care you'll just look like a wierdo, and probably smell bad.

How would not buying food do anything for food prices, dumpster diving means you have to eat food that people threw away, which probably is'nt healthy, and it does'nt change anything.

There is absolutely no purpose in squatting or dumpster diving unless you actually have too.

Now thats my opinion, but if someone decides to do it, thats fine, just don't pretend your being a revolutionary, or that it has anyhting to do with Anarchism.

[Black Dagger]

think that technocracy+anarchy= win, and i dont have any problem to get along with technocrat, but how come i cant really find any non-lifestylist anarchist except on that forum?

Because you have no direct experience or knowledge of the anarchist movement? The vast majority of anarchists are 'serious' by the definition you have provided here.

[Mowgli]

Where did I say anything about individualism or a hatred of class struggle?


Or mention anything even slightly resembling bourgeois?

You didn't. Some people are just so close minded they shoot every opinion that doesn't matches theirs and think of themself as the Überanarchist.

[Incendiarism]

Petty bourgeois individualism and a hatred of the class struggle, in favor of self serving crap?

Jack (http://www.revleft.com/vb/member.php?u=20284) http://www.revleft.com/vb/revleft/statusicon/user_offline.gif
Anarcho-Communist, Vegan

Could the same be said for you, comrade?

I don't like lifestylists either, but the truth of the matter is that they constitute a surprisingly small fraction of the anarchist movement.

They are not tearing down centuries of anarchist philosophy either, they are not organized, they shouldn't even be talked about in anarchist circles as they pose absolutely no threat and doing so legitimizes their ideas.

[Jack]

Still they act like they're changing something by eating out of dumpsters, stealing, and squatting' I just find it annoying as hell that they see themselves as "revolutionary". They also convey a negative image of anarchism, leading to the trust fund babies stereotype.

Mari3L, as far as shopping at places that "exploit workers", every place exploits workers. Boycotting something doesn't change its business practices, it just makes them have to lay off workers, and for people living in countries without a welfare system, it's horrible.

[Ele'ill]

Still they act like they're changing something by eating out of dumpsters, stealing, and squatting' I just find it annoying as hell that they see themselves as "revolutionary". They also convey a negative image of anarchism, leading to the trust fund babies stereotype.

First of all we're talking about two different groups of people. Crust punks and book collective groupies are not what I would consider travelers or squatters. Crashing on your friend's couch in another state even if you hitched a freight train to get there is NOT squatting. Traveling to a punk show to get drunk is not traveling across the country to meet people.


Mari3L, as far as shopping at places that "exploit workers", every place exploits workers. Boycotting something doesn't change its business practices, it just makes them have to lay off workers, and for people living in countries without a welfare system, it's horrible.

There are companies that don't exploit workers. And there is no excuse for anyone who considers themselves to be socio-politically consious to be wearing Nike or Gap. I mean jesus christ, how hard is it to not support the biggest worker's rights violators in the world?



Still they act like they're changing something by eating out of dumpsters, stealing, and squatting' I just find it annoying as hell that they see themselves as "revolutionary".

You are imagining this. They do this for personal reasons not for revolutionary reasons. They're not morons.



They also convey a negative image of anarchism, leading to the trust fund babies stereotype.

I think the trust fund babies image comes from kids with masks breaking windows in the street.


Most of the people you're claiming to dislike are involved in other things that make a difference. They just happen to also enjoy dumpstering food and squatting buildings.

[Hoxhaist]

what exactly do anarchists what society to become? what are their principles that guide the ideology?

[Jack]

there are companies that don't exploit workers.

Here's what I meant about no sense of the class struggle.

And there is no excuse for anyone who considers themselves to be socio-politically consious to be wearing Nike or Gap. I mean jesus christ, how hard is it to not support the biggest worker's rights violators in the world?

I'm wearing a shirt from the Gap, do I lose my white liberal self satisfaction badge?



You are imagining this. They do this for personal reasons not for revolutionary reasons. They're not morons.

No sense of the class struggle, again.


I think the trust fund babies image comes from kids with masks breaking windows in the street.

More from summer squatters.


Most of the people you're claiming to dislike are involved in other things that make a difference. They just happen to also enjoy dumpstering food and squatting buildings.

Really? Where are they? If this mystical useful crusty you speak of exists, I'm sure they know that "dumpstering" and squatting are not helping the movement, but rather just self satisfactory. Given the middle class backround of most of the post lefties and the like, summer squatters and trust fund babies playing poor is all it is.

[Jack]

what exactly do anarchists what society to become? what are their principles that guide the ideology?

Anarchism?

[Ele'ill]

I'm wearing a shirt from the Gap, do I lose my white liberal self satisfaction badge?

:lol:No but you come across as a hypocritical asshole to anyone with half a brain. To walk into that store and buy that shirt knowing what you know.



Here's what I meant about no sense of the class struggle.

Explain how this has anything to do with class struggle.









Really? Where are they? If this mystical useful crusty you speak of exists, I'm sure they know that "dumpstering" and squatting are not helping the movement, but rather just self satisfactory. Given the middle class backround of most of the post lefties and the like, summer squatters and trust fund babies playing poor is all it is.





If someone grows up middle class that doesn't mean that they stay middle class or that two generations later their offspring will still be middle class.

If the middle and upper class will always remain middle and upper class in the eyes of the anarchists post revolution then the poor will always remain poor as well. There is no room for special privlages based on a group of people's ideological romanticising.

Everyone i've met on my travels has been very willing (and demonstrated this) to camp, travel and squat in the dead of winter.


I guess my last question to you (for now) is what have you done that they haven't?

[RGacky3]

First of all we're talking about two different groups of people. Crust punks and book collective groupies are not what I would consider travelers or squatters. Crashing on your friend's couch in another state even if you hitched a freight train to get there is NOT squatting. Traveling to a punk show to get drunk is not traveling across the country to meet people.

I've travelled quite a bit, around many parts of the world backpacked and such (I'm lucky I had the opportunity to do that, comming from a middle class background), and mett a lot of people, but I fail to see waht any of that has to do with Anarchism at all?

The same with squatting? What do any of those things have to do with Anarchism?


There are companies that don't exploit workers. And there is no excuse for anyone who considers themselves to be socio-politically consious to be wearing Nike or Gap. I mean jesus christ, how hard is it to not support the biggest worker's rights violators in the world?

How would buying from companies that exploit less do anything to stop exploitation, what change are you making, its really only a symbolic protest, but a dumbone because its a symbolic protest that no one cares about.

Its like people doing confession at church every week for cheating on their wife, its poinless, its just symbolic to make themseves feel better.

and again, has nothing to do with Anarchism.


Given the middle class backround of most of the post lefties and the like, summer squatters and trust fund babies playing poor is all it is.

Go tell a poor person, working class, who just affords rent, groceries and a little more for some decent clothes, that he should squat or dumpster dive, or buy expensive clothes from companies that exploit less ... He'll laugh at you, he appreciates what he has, and enjoys the small luxuries he can get, why on earth would he give that up?

Being someone who grew up in a relatively well off middle class household, I don't see why I would VOLUNTARILY dumpster dive or squat, knowing it does'nt change anything, I want everyone to be well off and comfortable, the way to do that is not to pretend to be homeless, why would I want to do that? It makes no sense. Your not changing anything. Enjoy what you have, and help others try and get more too. Revolution is'nt about trying to fight social norms and go outside of society, its about the exploited rising up and ending the tyranny over them.


If someone grows up middle class that doesn't mean that they stay middle class or that two generations later their offspring will still be middle class.

I grew up middle class, I work as a relatively well paid wage worker, why on EARTH would I voluntarily decide to have less than what I have now, or have less control over mylife, become lower on the class scale. People that are poor don't want to be poor, those who have to dumpster dive actually would LOVE to be able to afford decent fresh food, those who must squat would love to have a home. To me middle class kids that do it as some sort of symbolic protest is almost offensive. If your doing it for fun, then your kind of wierd (in my humble opinion).


Everyone i've met on my travels has been very willing (and demonstrated this) to camp, travel and squat in the dead of winter.

So what, you like to travel and camp, what does that have to do with Anarchism, a lot of people like that.


Explain how this has anything to do with class struggle.


Thats what Anarchism is all about.

[apathy maybe]

Gosh some of you folks are boring.

A) Anarchism is not about class struggle. Anarchism is about freedom, non-hierarchy, anti-oppression and all that jazz. It just so happens that many people think that class struggle is the only way to get to a free society. Well, that's your opinion, and you are entitled to it. That doesn't mean that you are correct. We have no examples of a long lasting free society. That means that the "lifesylist" opinion is just as valid as yours!

B) You can be a "lifestylist" and be a "class strugglist".

C) Dumpster diving, squatting, only buying second hand clothing etc. mean that you can spend the money you save on other things. There is nothing wrong with that at all. It might not bring about the end of capitalism as we know it, but as I said above, it has done as much as working in a union, or smashing bank windows.

D) How the fuck is not contributing to demand "petit-bourgeois" or middle class?
----

If someone is a "lifestylist" (or a freegan) and does nothing but live the lifestyle of a minimalist consumer, good for them. It doesn't hurt you in any way, shape or form. If they believe that anarchism (as defined in other places, including above) is the best system, well, I don't have a problem with them calling themselves an anarchist.

I'm not condemning smashing bank windows (I think it has potential for good even), nor am I condemning working in a union. I don't think smashing bank windows, working in a union or "lifestylism" (dumpster diving, squatting, etc.) is revolutionary. I would suggest that getting up each morning and going to work is not fucking revolutionary either, yet it seems that most "anarchists" who condemn lifestylism (at least, the ones on this board), think it is...


Reducing demand, does affect capitalism. Just as fighting for a higher wage. The capitalists get less money, you get more (or, simply have more).

To say that it is "Petty bourgeois individualism" is not only ignorant, but also a misuse of Marxian terms. Lifestylists don't own property ("the means of production"), how can they be petit bourgeois?

To talk about the "middle class" as if it means something is also ignorant. After all, the middle class is just another part of the working class. Don't divide it up, that's silly.

Meh, boring.

[trivas7]

Anarchism is not about class struggle. Anarchism is about freedom, non-hierarchy, anti-oppression and all that jazz.
Cappies of many stripes are all about freedom, non-hierarchy, etc. This is to admit that anarchists have no political agenda. Indeed, that there's nothing particularly revolutionary re them. Perhaps this is a good thing.

[Lamanov]

National Labor Confederation (France): www.cnt-f.org (http://www.cnt-f.org)


CNT-F (Vignoles) is not an anarcho-syndicalist organization, because it's based on Amiens Charter.

CNT-AIT is.


Anarchism is not about class struggle.

Yes it is. Outside of it, it's non-existent.

The "contribution" of "life-stylist" dumpster-dived fiber-shit proves that.

The "contribution", on the other hand, of pathetic "academic anarchism" is just as telling.


It just so happens that many people think that class struggle is the only way to get to a free society.

No, that's what we know.


That means that the "lifesylist" opinion is just as valid as yours!

Yeah, right.

[Ele'ill]

I've travelled quite a bit, around many parts of the world backpacked and such (I'm lucky I had the opportunity to do that, comming from a middle class background), and mett a lot of people, but I fail to see waht any of that has to do with Anarchism at all?

Many poor people travel around their country and the world. In fact, I think its more common that the poor travel than a middle or upper class individual.



The same with squatting? What do any of those things have to do with Anarchism?

Refusing to take part in something you deem illegitimate (landlords, private property, etc) is you putting your core beliefs into action.

Otherwise, you're living like a comfy capitalist but thinking like an anarchist which is completely useless.




How would buying from companies that exploit less do anything to stop exploitation, what change are you making, its really only a symbolic protest, but a dumbone because its a symbolic protest that no one cares about.

Its a gut check. I buy my clothes from thrift stores. They are nice clothes that I buy. I still won't buy anything from companies that I know are renowned for right's violations.

And less might be 98% less. And the company might not be a right's violator at all; there are plenty that are not.


Its like people doing confession at church every week for cheating on their wife, its poinless, its just symbolic to make themseves feel better.

and again, has nothing to do with Anarchism.

The idiocy occurs where anarchists claim to be about worker solidarity.
Could you walk up to a group of workers from a Nike plant in South America, as an anarchist, shake their hand and say "thanks guys I really dig the work you do down here!" And, "I buy your clothes in america."

There becomes a thinning of the desperately built up proverbial wall between leftists and the sterotypical complacent american.




Go tell a poor person, working class, who just affords rent, groceries and a little more for some decent clothes, that he should squat or dumpster dive, or buy expensive clothes from companies that exploit less ... He'll laugh at you, he appreciates what he has, and enjoys the small luxuries he can get, why on earth would he give that up?

Assuming he's not already dumpster diving he'll laugh with joy and no longer have to pay for groceries. He may already be living in a tent city or in one of the hundreds of abandoned buildings within the city limits.

So far I think you're describing how an UPPER CLASS individual would respond.

Why did you state in this paragraph that the companies that DON'T exploit are 'expensive'? They aren't.




Being someone who grew up in a relatively well off middle class household, I don't see why I would VOLUNTARILY dumpster dive or squat, knowing it does'nt change anything,

That is your perception and nothing else. The public didn't know how much food was being thrown out until several years ago and the lower income individuals have been squatting and scavenging since the country began.


I want everyone to be well off and comfortable, the way to do that is not to pretend to be homeless,

When you don't have a house, you're homeless. Period. The person's character doesn't influence the fact that they're homeless.


why would I want to do that? It makes no sense. Your not changing anything. Enjoy what you have, and help others try and get more too.

Capitalism.


Revolution is'nt about trying to fight social norms and go outside of society, its about the exploited rising up and ending the tyranny over them.

By stepping outside of society or atleast refusing to take part in the key components of exploitation AND by fighting social norms such as exploiting workers. Tax evaders, draft dodgers etc..




I grew up middle class, I work as a relatively well paid wage worker, why on EARTH would I voluntarily decide to have less than what I have now,

Revolution without sacrifice doesn't exist.


or have less control over mylife, become lower on the class scale.

Again, if class scale is your main objective than you're playing into the capitalist's game.


People that are poor don't want to be poor, those who have to dumpster dive actually would LOVE to be able to afford decent fresh food,

They often times CAN afford fresh food by why would you, unless you're insane, not take free food?


those who must squat would love to have a home. To me middle class kids that do it as some sort of symbolic protest is almost offensive. If your doing it for fun, then your kind of wierd (in my humble opinion).

Maybe its fun to them because its the first time they've had control over their lives. They discovered that they can break away from the commericalized zombie market places of the Mall, MTV, school, brain washed relatives etc..



Thats what Anarchism is all about.

Class struggle isn't class struggle when you're laying half naked on your 2000 dollar couch eating grapes and watching rachel maddow. Its not having a luxury vehicle or making decent money. All of that is called enjoying capitalism.

If you're enjoying your job, the wages, your middle class family, why are you hell bent on anarchism and changing the world?

Isn't this the same as the squatters and divers doing their thing with alternatives at their disposale?

[Dejavu]

Gosh some of you folks are boring.

A) Anarchism is not about class struggle. Anarchism is about freedom, non-hierarchy, anti-oppression and all that jazz. It just so happens that many people think that class struggle is the only way to get to a free society. Well, that's your opinion, and you are entitled to it. That doesn't mean that you are correct. We have no examples of a long lasting free society. That means that the "lifesylist" opinion is just as valid as yours!

B) You can be a "lifestylist" and be a "class strugglist".

C) Dumpster diving, squatting, only buying second hand clothing etc. mean that you can spend the money you save on other things. There is nothing wrong with that at all. It might not bring about the end of capitalism as we know it, but as I said above, it has done as much as working in a union, or smashing bank windows.

D) How the fuck is not contributing to demand "petit-bourgeois" or middle class?
----

If someone is a "lifestylist" (or a freegan) and does nothing but live the lifestyle of a minimalist consumer, good for them. It doesn't hurt you in any way, shape or form. If they believe that anarchism (as defined in other places, including above) is the best system, well, I don't have a problem with them calling themselves an anarchist.

I'm not condemning smashing bank windows (I think it has potential for good even), nor am I condemning working in a union. I don't think smashing bank windows, working in a union or "lifestylism" (dumpster diving, squatting, etc.) is revolutionary. I would suggest that getting up each morning and going to work is not fucking revolutionary either, yet it seems that most "anarchists" who condemn lifestylism (at least, the ones on this board), think it is...


Reducing demand, does affect capitalism. Just as fighting for a higher wage. The capitalists get less money, you get more (or, simply have more).

To say that it is "Petty bourgeois individualism" is not only ignorant, but also a misuse of Marxian terms. Lifestylists don't own property ("the means of production"), how can they be petit bourgeois?

To talk about the "middle class" as if it means something is also ignorant. After all, the middle class is just another part of the working class. Don't divide it up, that's silly.

Meh, boring.

Very good post.

[Dejavu]

Otherwise, you're living like a comfy capitalist but thinking like an anarchist which is completely useless.

Noam Chomsky

[Ele'ill]

Noam Chomsky

Did he mention this?

[Dejavu]

Class struggle isn't class struggle when you're laying half naked on your 2000 dollar couch eating grapes and watching rachel maddow. Its not having a luxury vehicle or making decent money. All of that is called enjoying capitalism.

Surely you're not implying that socialism can never offer that seemingly comfortable lifestyle ( though I would not watch Rachel Maddow :P)

So we can say sitting in rags on a couch you found next to a dumpster, without food, reading Karl Marx and having a beat up Yugo barely making pennies is fighting for the class struggle?

I don't think any serious socialist would claim that having luxury is only possible through capitalism.

[Dejavu]

Did he mention this?

I was saying Chomsky seems to fit that description quite well.

[Ele'ill]

If you're enjoying your job, the wages, your middle class family, why are you hell bent on anarchism and changing the world?

Isn't this the same as the squatters and divers doing their thing with alternatives at their disposale?

I was showing the hypocritical point of view.


Surely you're not implying that socialism can never offer that seemingly comfortable lifestyle ( though I would not watch Rachel Maddow :P)

So we can say sitting in rags on a couch you found next to a dumpster, without food, reading Karl Marx and having a beat up Yugo barely making pennies is fighting for the class struggle?

I don't think any serious socialist would claim that having luxury is only possible through capitalism.


-We're not there yet.
-I would hope that the luxuries of a leftist system wouldn't be possible because of immense worker repression.

The corporations (as an example) that are responsible for all kinds of horrible things are rich and powerful because people are continuing to purchase their products. Not because they have been this way forever.

[Dejavu]

The corporations (as an example) that are responsible for all kinds of horrible things are rich and powerful because people are continuing to purchase their products. Not because they have been this way forever.

Can you phrase this another way? I'm not sure I understand what you mean here.

[Dejavu]

-We're not there yet.
-I would hope that the luxuries of a leftist system wouldn't be possible because of immense worker repression.

I am also unsure of what you mean by these points. Sorry.

[apathy maybe]

Cappies of many stripes are all about freedom, non-hierarchy, etc. This is to admit that anarchists have no political agenda. Indeed, that there's nothing particularly revolutionary re them. Perhaps this is a good thing.
Anarchism as a broad super-set of ideologies has no "political agenda", if you think of politics as all about parliaments and elections. Sure. Neither is it "revolutionary" as such (though doing away with capitalism, the state, oppression etc. is sounds revolutionary to me...). However, I would suggest that the more popular types of anarchism are revolutionary. But still, there are heaps of types of anarchism that aren't revolutionary, indeed, the first "anarchist" wasn't a revolutionary.


Yes it is. Outside of it, it's non-existent.

The "contribution" of "life-stylist" dumpster-dived fiber-shit proves that.

The "contribution", on the other hand, of pathetic "academic anarchism" is just as telling.
Depends on what you are contributing to. Just because "class struggle" type anarchisms produce the most news headlines, or the most capitalists dead, or whatever, doesn't mean that other sorts of anarchism aren't contributing to theory or even the destruction of capitalism.

But hey, I'm not interested in discussing this any more, I don't have any real evidence, and I can't be bothered digging any out, and neither do you.


No, that's what we know.
But I haven't seen any hard objective evidence to back that up yet, and I've been around RevLeft for a long fucking time... (Not to mention that I've hung out with anarchists in real life..., read the news, etc.)



Oh, and I just want to publicly thank Mari3L for their posts in this thread. I appreciate them.

[Dejavu]

I think the term 'revolutionary' has turned into something of a buzz word. It seems that if you propose to most people the idea of a 'revolution' they think angry people taking up arms and violence.

Revolutions do not need to presuppose violence.

[trivas7]

Anarchism as a broad super-set of ideologies has no "political agenda", if you think of politics as all about parliaments and elections. Sure. Neither is it "revolutionary" as such (though doing away with capitalism, the state, oppression etc. is sounds revolutionary to me...). However, I would suggest that the more popular types of anarchism are revolutionary. But still, there are heaps of types of anarchism that aren't revolutionary, indeed, the first "anarchist" wasn't a revolutionary.

Could you say more? By revolutionary I mean in the Marxian sense of change in property relations. What is it unites both revolutionary and non-revolutionary anarchism? What is a political agenda IYO?

[Ele'ill]

Oh, and I just want to publicly thank Mari3L for their posts in this thread. I appreciate them.

Thanks.

I think this thread turned out really good. Thank you all for it. :)

[Jack]

CNT-F (Vignoles) is not an anarcho-syndicalist organization, because it's based on Amiens Charter.

CNT-AIT is.

Well Vignoles is pretty much anarchist dominated, but officially doesn't put much emphasis on the anarcho.

I was talking about just the plain CNT-F that's part of the IWA-AIT.

[RGacky3]

Many poor people travel around their country and the world. In fact, I think its more common that the poor travel than a middle or upper class individual.

First of all, no they don't, most poor people would'nt even dream of traveling. Second of all, when they do, its not "traveling" its immigration, and they don't do it for fun, the do it because they are desperate.

HUGE difference, its almost offensive to compar esome lifestylist anarcho-punk backpacking and squatting trying to "find himself" or whatever to someone that must leave his family and immigrate to try and make something better for his family, or just survive.


Refusing to take part in something you deem illegitimate (landlords, private property, etc) is you putting your core beliefs into action.

Otherwise, you're living like a comfy capitalist but thinking like an anarchist which is completely useless.

Thats like being an anti-monarchist in a kingdom, and instead of fighting against the monarchy to help overthrow it, you just join a monestary.


The idiocy occurs where anarchists claim to be about worker solidarity.
Could you walk up to a group of workers from a Nike plant in South America, as an anarchist, shake their hand and say "thanks guys I really dig the work you do down here!" And, "I buy your clothes in america."

There becomes a thinning of the desperately built up proverbial wall between leftists and the sterotypical complacent american.


YES, of caorse I could do that, the Nikes arn't evil, they made the nikes, what is wrong is the power structure, and the exploitatio. Not buying nikes would'nt change a thing, either they'd slave in another sweat shop, Or have nothing, because either way, the Capitalists have the resources and power. You hav'nt changed a thing buy not buying certain brands.

(Just for the record I don't buy nikes or gap or whatever, but I don't think it has anything to do with Anarchism.)


When you don't have a house, you're homeless. Period. The person's character doesn't influence the fact that they're homeless.


You know what I maen, I have a roof over my head.


By stepping outside of society or atleast refusing to take part in the key components of exploitation AND by fighting social norms such as exploiting workers. Tax evaders, draft dodgers etc..

Tax evasion and draft dodging are civil disobedience, meaning you can go to prison. Thats a big difference, also thats the society we strive for, one free of oppression. BTW, most people can't just 'not work' if that were the case unemployment would be the answer to capitalism.


Revolution without sacrifice doesn't exist.

Yeah, sacrifice that makes sense, that actually makes a difference, or has the potential too. Not symbolic nonesense that just makes you feel better while accomplishing nothing.


Again, if class scale is your main objective than you're playing into the capitalist's game.

Really? Do you know how hard and how brutal Capitalists have been over the last 100 yaers against those trying to form class solidarity? How hard the Capitalists have tried to put down any type of class rebellion? You know why? Because its a threat to Capitalism.

How hard have they tried to stop squatters and dumpster divers? Not very. You know why? Because its not a threat to anything.


They often times CAN afford fresh food by why would you, unless you're insane, not take free food?

I don't have an answer, I suppose everyone working hard to afford groceries are just insane, ask them.


Maybe its fun to them because its the first time they've had control over their lives. They discovered that they can break away from the commericalized zombie market places of the Mall, MTV, school, brain washed relatives etc..

Ahh, your off to find yourself, is that the road to liberation? Finding yourself? Anarchism is'nt about fun ... and its not some self help philosophy.

Look, thats fine, every one wants control over their lives, if thats how you can do it fine. But that has nothing to do with Anarchism, nor is it helping the cause.


Class struggle isn't class struggle when you're laying half naked on your 2000 dollar couch eating grapes and watching rachel maddow. Its not having a luxury vehicle or making decent money. All of that is called enjoying capitalism.

If you're enjoying your job, the wages, your middle class family, why are you hell bent on anarchism and changing the world?

Isn't this the same as the squatters and divers doing their thing with alternatives at their disposale?

First of all, I doubt anyone here lives like that :P. Also I like everyother wage worker, am exploited for my labor as well, second of all. I, unlike lifestylists, try and make a difference in my workplace and try in my own small way to contribute to worker solidarity. However I live my personal life is irrelivent, however you live your personal life is irrelivent too, so stop pretending its anarchistic or whatever to dumpster dive and buy second hand goods.

You willlingly giving up luxuries and the such is helping the cause of liberation as much as me playing pool and buying a beer.


-We're not there yet.
-I would hope that the luxuries of a leftist system wouldn't be possible because of immense worker repression.

What the hell are you talking about??? Are you trying to say that workers cannot make luxuries for themselves without being repressed? Do you know what socialism is? My God, you really arn't a class struggle anarchist :P.

Workers make luxury items, thats not the bad part, the bad part is they don't get the fruits of their labor. Learn about Anarchism and Socialism.


The corporations (as an example) that are responsible for all kinds of horrible things are rich and powerful because people are continuing to purchase their products. Not because they have been this way forever.

Well it kind of has been this way, at least cor centuries, guess what, the rich and powerful control pretty much all the resources and capital, thats not gonna change if people stop buying certain brands.

[Ele'ill]

First of all, no they don't, most poor people would'nt even dream of traveling. Second of all, when they do, its not "traveling" its immigration, and they don't do it for fun, the do it because they are desperate.

-So if they can't get a job in the city they reside in they simply starve to death.
-Gypsies don't exist.
-The lower-middle class that I know travel just as much as an upper class person would. They don't have a private beach resort but they travel.



HUGE difference, its almost offensive to compar esome lifestylist anarcho-punk backpacking and squatting trying to "find himself" or whatever to someone that must leave his family and immigrate to try and make something better for his family, or just survive.

Don't put words in my mouth.
YOU mentioned immigration and YOU mentioned anarcho-punk. I never compared the two or brought either into discussion anywhere in this thread.



YES, of caorse I could do that, the Nikes arn't evil, they made the nikes, what is wrong is the power structure, and the exploitatio. Not buying nikes would'nt change a thing, either they'd slave in another sweat shop, Or have nothing, because either way, the Capitalists have the resources and power. You hav'nt changed a thing buy not buying certain brands.

I'm having a hard time understanding this. I hope you don't believe that the people of these countries are worse off without transnational corporations.

Buying second hand clothes is a phobia in the first world. All the mass consumption of clothing (and other things) is causing a demand for cheap labor. Its causing a mental pollutant. I really don't have to explain all of this. I think you know better.



Tax evasion and draft dodging are civil disobedience, meaning you can go to prison.

You can go to prison for squatting. Under certain circumstances you can go to prison for dumpster diving.

Squatting involves not paying taxes.




BTW, most people can't just 'not work' if that were the case unemployment would be the answer to capitalism.

Most people could if they had the had the mental fortitude and maybe it is the answer to capitalism.



Really? Do you know how hard and how brutal Capitalists have been over the last 100 yaers against those trying to form class solidarity? How hard the Capitalists have tried to put down any type of class rebellion? You know why? Because its a threat to Capitalism.


I grew up middle class, I work as a relatively well paid wage worker, why on EARTH would I voluntarily decide to have less than what I have now,

The last thing that is - is a threat to capitalism.


How hard have they tried to stop squatters and dumpster divers? Not very. You know why? Because its not a threat to anything.

Its not intended to be a threat. Stop strawmanning this issue.


Have you ever squatted or dived?




I don't have an answer, I suppose everyone working hard to afford groceries are just insane, ask them.

I don't know what this means.




Ahh, your off to find yourself, is that the road to liberation? Finding yourself? Anarchism is'nt about fun ... and its not some self help philosophy.
Look, thats fine, every one wants control over their lives, if thats how you can do it fine. But that has nothing to do with Anarchism, nor is it helping the cause.

Not participating in the system that oppresses you has been a method of direct action civil disobedience used by many people.

Anarchism isn't JUST a political ideology. It goes deeper than that.





First of all, I doubt anyone here lives like that :P. Also I like everyother wage worker, am exploited for my labor as well, second of all. I, unlike lifestylists, try and make a difference in my workplace and try in my own small way to contribute to worker solidarity.

What have you done? It gets to a point where its a token gesture to the labor movement. We're at that point. You're a lifestylist just like you say the squatters and divers are except they don't live like capitalists. :)


However I live my personal life is irrelivent,

Then why don't you live like a capitalist until the day you die?


You willlingly giving up luxuries and the such is helping the cause of liberation as much as me playing pool and buying a beer.

Execept for the fact that i'm not still giving money to corporations, known for workers rights violations (attrocities). Its not hard to do. I stopped buying from a lot of places when I was thirteen years old.




What the hell are you talking about??? Are you trying to say that workers cannot make luxuries for themselves without being repressed? Do you know what socialism is? My God, you really arn't a class struggle anarchist :P.

The original quote was -



Surely you're not implying that socialism can never offer that seemingly comfortable lifestyle ( though I would not watch Rachel Maddow :P)

So we can say sitting in rags on a couch you found next to a dumpster, without food, reading Karl Marx and having a beat up Yugo barely making pennies is fighting for the class struggle?

I don't think any serious socialist would claim that having luxury is only possible through capitalism.

My reply was to clarify my intended point of view on the matter. We're not living in a leftist system and corporations are still hurting workers.








Workers make luxury items, thats not the bad part, the bad part is they don't get the fruits of their labor.

That's a pretty simple way of looking at it. How about the corporations- backed by paramilitary goons - denying workers the right to unionize, unsafe working environments, random layoffs, assassinations, murders, no control of the work place and yes, unlivable wages.



Learn about Anarchism and Socialism.

:lol:




Well it kind of has been this way, at least cor centuries, guess what, the rich and powerful control pretty much all the resources and capital, thats not gonna change if people stop buying certain brands.

Yeah, actually it will. Stop buying their shit and they'll go out of business. I know I know, its not easy NOT going to the mall with all the great music they play there and to walk past abercrombie and fitch and NOT want to go into the store beause of all the great smelling perfumes wafting out.

-Buy second hand it will cut back on america's consumption issues
-The difference between agribusiness and organic farming is a few light years. Buy local organic.
-Not buying from the world's worst worker's rights violators is a good start.
-Being a wage slave ISN'T solidarity.


Edit: This post got all goofed up when I sumbited it. Sorry if I missed anything.

[apathy maybe]

The lower-middle class that I know travel just as much as an upper class person would. They don't have a private beach resort but they travel.

I only quote one part of the post, but I basically think that the entire post is worth it.

[Bud Struggle]

Thanks.

I think this thread turned out really good. Thank you all for it. :)

I agree with am. One of the best threads ever on OI.:thumbup:

I've enjoyed every post.

[ls]

Sure there are people that do more meaningful things to move society forward. I just wouldn't place someone who created an alternative community and lives that way at the bottom of the barrel.

I'm not sure what this means. I've said that it's OK provided you realise it doesn't do anything to the class-struggle.


Sometimes the only thing you can do to resist is step away from the toxic culture. I'm sure the mere action of salvaging food from dumpsters is more than many on this board have done.

Why stop there? Maybe you've done more by doing that than anyone on this board and were restricted!


How long are we going to try to build solidarity?

Not try, many organisations at the moment are doing very well (the IWW, liberty & solidarity, many in greece).


I honestly thought you were refering to complacent acceptance.

Brilliant, because my talk about class-struggle obviously just means complacent acceptance.


If someone grows up middle class that doesn't mean that they stay middle class or that two generations later their offspring will still be middle class.

A fair point. The problem being the tendency of the ruling classes to preserve themselves, middle/upper classes get it nowhere near as bad as working-class people (seeing as we're using these definitions which I've kind of dropped using lately).


If the middle and upper class will always remain middle and upper class in the eyes of the anarchists post revolution then the poor will always remain poor as well. There is no room for special privlages based on a group of people's ideological romanticising.

Where's anyone said the middle or upper class will always remain that?


Everyone i've met on my travels has been very willing (and demonstrated this) to camp, travel and squat in the dead of winter.

Glad to hear -- it's totally irrelevant though.


I guess my last question to you (for now) is what have you done that they haven't?

If they've just camped and eaten from dustbins then quite a bit more in mine and many others' opinions (same for others on this thread i.e. RGacky talking about organising his workplace).


There are many things in life more important than class struggle.

It's quite important.


Figuring out your personal ethical boundries.

Only to an extent, you may be forced to cross some of them to help the class-struggle.


What you are willing to support.

Again to an extent.


Do you have a problem with companies stomping all over workers? Stop supporting them by buying their shit.

I believe RGacky refuted this earlier by saying that's almost irrelevant in the majority of cases.


Tired of getting fucked by skyrocketing food prices? Dumpster half your grocery list.

And don't eat or eat dumpster (tainted imo) food.


Gas prices? Don't own a fucking car!

That's fucking ridiculous. Look at how many working-class people need their cars for their jobs and transport, don't be insultingly stupid like that.


Hate the idea of landlords? Squat.



Or live out of your car.

Are you trolling on that last bit?


I didn't own a car for two years. I loved it.


Its not practical for EVERYONE to do this but its what worked for me.

It's not practical for as you'd say, an "assload" of people. ;)


How does their lifestylism() have anything to do (good or bad) with class struggle?

Apparently it does have something to do with it, but you just admitted it does not. Also it isn't anywhere near as important even in itself.

[StalinFanboy]

Cappies of many stripes are all about freedom, non-hierarchy, etc. This is to admit that anarchists have no political agenda. Indeed, that there's nothing particularly revolutionary re them. Perhaps this is a good thing.
Capitalism is inherently hierarchical.

[Mowgli]

Fully agree with Mari3L and apathy maybe.

I think it's really ignorant to deny the power of the consumer. You are the one bying their products. If you don't agree with their tactics, stop buying it, and encourage other people to do the same. We should fight the system on all fronts. Most people are blind consuming zombies, who give as much about the revolution as we do about who the next American Idol is going to be. I think a little bit of respect towards eachother (leftists) wouldn't do any harm, on the contrary.

There's never gonna be a descent revolution if everyone keeps looking down on one another.


Respect.

[trivas7]

Capitalism is inherently hierarchical.
Social organization is inherently hierarchical. So what's your point?

[Dejavu]

I think it's really ignorant to deny the power of the consumer. You are the one bying their products. If you don't agree with their tactics, stop buying it, and encourage other people to do the same. We should fight the system on all fronts.

This kind of action is encouraged by Agorists. Agorists think you should try to the best of your ability to purchase products off the radar and avoid taxes as much as possible which are typically used to subsidize corporations anyway.

[StalinFanboy]

Social organization is inherently hierarchical. So what's your point?
That capitalists can't be against hierarchy.

[Ele'ill]

I'm not sure what this means. I've said that it's OK provided you realise it doesn't do anything to the class-struggle.

I didn't understand the negative comments directed towards people living a particular "lifestyle". We all live lifestyles and some have a greater impact than others.




Why stop there? Maybe you've done more by doing that than anyone on this board and were restricted!

Not that i'm doubting the notion that there could be people on this forum who are politically active or anything but I have yet to see any evidence.




Not try, many organisations at the moment are doing very well (the IWW, liberty & solidarity, many in greece).

I don't doubt the power of a well organized worker's movement.




Brilliant, because my talk about class-struggle obviously just means complacent acceptance.

I didn't look at the original conversation here, but I don't think I was insulting you. I think I honestly thought you were talking about people being complacent. So I gave an example to show that I agree.



A fair point. The problem being the tendency of the ruling classes to preserve themselves, middle/upper classes get it nowhere near as bad as working-class people (seeing as we're using these definitions which I've kind of dropped using lately).

The middle is a grey area. I would consider everyone 'working class' however the common laborers do have it rough. Even if they're making middle class money. Maybe it has more to do with occupation within your class?




Where's anyone said the middle or upper class will always remain that?

It was blatantly implied.




Glad to hear -- it's totally irrelevant though.

:lol: It was a reply to someone stating that all squatters are 'summer squatters lifestylists' etc..




If they've just camped and eaten from dustbins then quite a bit more in mine and many others' opinions (same for others on this thread i.e. RGacky talking about organising his workplace).

I doubt that most of the people that say they've organized HAVE actually organized. This is not to discredit those that have.

The reason I jumped into this thread was because of the blatantly elitist attitude given by some of the people who have 'organized their workplaces'. Not well enough considering they had to wait for a capitlist to try and put the employee free choice act into play.




It's quite important.

I don't think its the most important.




Only to an extent, you may be forced to cross some of them to help the class-struggle.

Which ones? Who's to tell me I have to cross these if I don't feel comfortable? Maybe its the labor guys and gals that need to cross comfort zones in order to be revolutionary.



I believe RGacky refuted this earlier by saying that's almost irrelevant in the majority of cases.

There have been no replies to this.




And don't eat or eat dumpster (tainted imo) food.

Yes. Because when someone is 600 miles from their last known place of existance called home which is the 300th home they've had in the last five years with no job or medical benefits they're going to risk eating out of a dumpster if the food was tainted and poisonous. I'm sorry but I saw a girly pursed lipped flinch when I read your reply.

I've never gotten sick from dumpstered food. Ever.




That's fucking ridiculous. Look at how many working-class people need their cars for their jobs and transport, don't be insultingly stupid like that.

I'm a working class person. It was cheaper for me to walk and bike it. So I did. I quit smoking too. I'm sorry if this ridiculous idea encroached in on your patio of working class. :rolleyes:




It's not practical for as you'd say, an "assload" of people. ;)

Once I started to bike and walk to work someone else did too. Six months later there were four of us. I wasn't friends with any of them.




Apparently it does have something to do with it, but you just admitted it does not. Also it isn't anywhere near as important even in itself.

How does it apparently?

[ls]

I didn't understand the negative comments directed towards people living a particular "lifestyle".

Evidently.


We all live lifestyles and some have a greater impact than others.

Indeed if we are police officers it can be physical.


Not that i'm doubting the notion that there could be people on this forum who are politically active or anything but I have yet to see any evidence.

Then you haven't looked very far or you're a troll. I'm going to point to this as evidence of your inability to have a conversation that is worth taking seriously and end it with you here.

[Mowgli]

Evidently.



Indeed if we are police officers it can be physical.



Then you haven't looked very far or you're a troll. I'm going to point to this as evidence of your inability to have a conversation that is worth taking seriously and end it with you here.

Looks to me like you're the one with the crappy "arguments" mate.
Bad vibe ahoy.

[Ele'ill]

Evidently.

I didn't understand why some posters were so elitist.



We all live lifestyles and some have a greater impact than others.

Indeed if we are police officers it can be physical.

What?



Not that i'm doubting the notion that there could be people on this forum who are politically active or anything but I have yet to see any evidence.

Then you haven't looked very far or you're a troll.

Certainly not anyone in this thread. Quote them. :)



I'm going to point to this as evidence of your inability to have a conversation that is worth taking seriously and end it with you here.

You have debated with me from page one. Nice try.

[RGacky3]

-So if they can't get a job in the city they reside in they simply starve to death.
-Gypsies don't exist.
-The lower-middle class that I know travel just as much as an upper class person would. They don't have a private beach resort but they travel.

- No they immigrate, but its a hell of a lot differnet than what lifestylists do
-Yes they do, but they are a very small part of the poor
-People travel that can afford it


Don't put words in my mouth.
YOU mentioned immigration and YOU mentioned anarcho-punk. I never compared the two or brought either into discussion anywhere in this thread.

replace anarcho-punk with lifestyleist, and you were the one that said that travelining was actually done more by poor people, so you were the one that made the connection. Immigration is'nt "traveling", its notsomething people do for fun.


I'm having a hard time understanding this. I hope you don't believe that the people of these countries are worse off without transnational corporations.

Buying second hand clothes is a phobia in the first world. All the mass consumption of clothing (and other things) is causing a demand for cheap labor. Its causing a mental pollutant. I really don't have to explain all of this. I think you know better.

I have nothing against buyin gsecond hand cothing, I do it occasionally myself, but the reason I do it, is because I like the clothes and they are cheap. I know, it has nothing to do with class struggle.

I am saying people in those countries are worse off no matter what under Capitalism, because ultimately either the transnationals let them slave, or starve, or slave in something else, so the transnationals have the power no matter what the demand is.


You can go to prison for squatting. Under certain circumstances you can go to prison for dumpster diving.

Squatting involves not paying taxes.

Yeah, but its not an act of civil disobedience, only in your mind it is, and its never changed anything, unless maybe its resisting eviction, or something like that.


Most people could if they had the had the mental fortitude and maybe it is the answer to capitalism.

Get your head out of the sand, what ultimatelly your saying, is that poor people don't need to overthrow Capitalism and oppression they can just not work. Yeah, all the serfs in fudalism should have juts become monks. Listen to yourself. Its not only dumb its borderline offensive.


The last thing that is - is a threat to capitalism.


Well Capitalists don't think so, niether does anyone else, and its not a threat because the power structure stays the same.


Execept for the fact that i'm not still giving money to corporations, known for workers rights violations (attrocities).

Does'nt change a thing, Capitalism is global and all intertwined, you can¨'t change it without shifting power.


Its not intended to be a threat. Stop strawmanning this issue.


Have you ever squatted or dived?

I've squatted, not because I wanted too, or I thought it would be fun and rebellious, but because I did'nt have a place to sleep. No I hav'nt dived.

If its not a threat to any authority or power structure what does it have to do with Anarchism? Also you said


The last thing that is - is a threat to capitalism.


Soooo


That's a pretty simple way of looking at it. How about the corporations- backed by paramilitary goons - denying workers the right to unionize, unsafe working environments, random layoffs, assassinations, murders, no control of the work place and yes, unlivable wages.

Yeah, but as I said, luxury items being made is'nt th ebad part, its the circumstances.


I don't know what this means.

It means your ultimately implying that workers are just getting it wrong, and that the answer is just dumpster diving, which just means that workers are wasting their time working too feed their families, which is very ignorant of you, and makes me think you've never actually been around people that have to scrape a living for their families, and take pride in the little they can give them.


What have you done? It gets to a point where its a token gesture to the labor movement. We're at that point. You're a lifestylist just like you say the squatters and divers are except they don't live like capitalists.

Well I hav'nt done much, not as much as many others. However, now due to some work I have done with fellow workers, people at my old company get overtime, paid as employess (not independant contractors), and can work less. Its not much I agree, but at leasts its actually give a few people a little more freedom, and ability to provide, also (at least for a small amount of time) it shifted the power.

Now again, it did'nt change the system, but at least it was an attempt, to actually make a difference, the more people that do that, the more the system will change, the closer we get to revolution.

Being a Capitalist has NOTHING to do with having a roof over your head, a bed to sleep on, a family and a nice fresh meal, if thats the Case then everyone wants to be a Capitalist except for you crazy rebels. Capitalists are people who have power over other people through capitalist property.


Then why don't you live like a capitalist until the day you die?

I can't, I'm not a Capitalist. But I hope to never be desperately poor.


Yeah, actually it will. Stop buying their shit and they'll go out of business. I know I know, its not easy NOT going to the mall with all the great music they play there and to walk past abercrombie and fitch and NOT want to go into the store beause of all the great smelling perfumes wafting out.

-Buy second hand it will cut back on america's consumption issues
-The difference between agribusiness and organic farming is a few light years. Buy local organic.
-Not buying from the world's worst worker's rights violators is a good start.
-Being a wage slave ISN'T solidarity.

Its a lot more complicated then that first of all. You know that, if you want me to explain why that won't work I will, but it all boils down too, the capitalists have the Capital, money, resources, and power so ultimately they are giong to make money as long as they have that power.

I don't go to the mall ... nor would I judge anyone that did.

Also buy local organic sure, one Capitalists find out theres more money there its gonna be big business too, good job comrade.
Being a wage slave is'nt an option for the bast majority of the earth.

but you have fun on your personal soul search.

[RGacky3]

I didn't understand why some posters were so elitist.


The elitist attitude is the arrogant attitude that working poor people just need to stop working and dumpster dive, and that thats the solution, and that some how you are morally superior because you don't buy from certain places even though your not making a dent in the system.

[apathy maybe]

The elitist attitude is the arrogant attitude that working poor people just need to stop working and dumpster dive, and that thats the solution, and that some how you are morally superior because you don't buy from certain places even though your not making a dent in the system.

Where the fuck has anyone on this board advocated that?

Of course, some people would have suggested (and I support) the call for poor people to go and dumpster dive 'cause it is going to save them money. Which, being poor, they don't have much of.

But where has anyone said it is a solution for capitalism?

--

As for boycotts, it is making a dent. That's how capitalism works. If there is no demand for sweat-shop clothing, it stops being made. If millions of people stop buying a certain product, it will impact the profit of the corporation that makes that product.

Individuals might not be making much of a dent, but hey, no need to condemn them for something that is not hurting you in any way shap or form!

[RGacky3]

Of course, some people would have suggested (and I support) the call for poor people to go and dumpster dive 'cause it is going to save them money. Which, being poor, they don't have much of.

But where has anyone said it is a solution for capitalism?



Quote:
Originally Posted by RGacky3 http://www.revleft.com/vb/revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1423466#post1423466)
BTW, most people can't just 'not work' if that were the case unemployment would be the answer to capitalism.
Most people could if they had the had the mental fortitude and maybe it is the answer to capitalism.


As for boycotts, it is making a dent. That's how capitalism works. If there is no demand for sweat-shop clothing, it stops being made. If millions of people stop buying a certain product, it will impact the profit of the corporation that makes that product.

Individuals might not be making much of a dent, but hey, no need to condemn them for something that is not hurting you in any way shap or form!

I condemn Capitalist power, not how they use it, thats the problem.

[trivas7]

This kind of action is encouraged by Agorists. Agorists think you should try to the best of your ability to purchase products off the radar and avoid taxes as much as possible which are typically used to subsidize corporations anyway.
Does this amount to using black markets and avoiding paying taxes?

[Ele'ill]

- No they immigrate, but its a hell of a lot differnet than what lifestylists do
-Yes they do, but they are a very small part of the poor
-People travel that can afford it

-Immigrate is generally used to describe transnational commute. Regardless, we're talking about the same thing. They move, travel, drive, immigrate, commute to another city to look for better jobs. They also travel around to see family just as anyone would.

-So what?

-Have you traveled outside of your town before? Bus and train tickets are fairly cheap. How do you think poor people get into the city for work? How do you think they get out of the city for work?




replace anarcho-punk with lifestyleist, and you were the one that said that travelining was actually done more by poor people, so you were the one that made the connection. Immigration is'nt "traveling", its notsomething people do for fun.

No, I won't simply replace anarcho-punk with lifestylist. I never defended the 'anarcho punks'. In fact i've reiterated on ever page of this thread that we're not talking about punk kids.

You're like a fish out of water here.



- I have nothing against buyin gsecond hand cothing, I do it occasionally myself, but the reason I do it, is because I like the clothes and they are cheap. I know, it has nothing to do with class struggle.

Worker solidarity would mean doing something about their working conditions. Not buying the companies products. :lol:

Do you agree with these corporations' advertising compaigns?
Don't you think they're toxic?





- I am saying people in those countries are worse off no matter what under Capitalism, because ultimately either the transnationals let them slave, or starve, or slave in something else, so the transnationals have the power no matter what the demand is.

So you might as well enjoy the fruit of their slavings by buying a full GAP tracksuit with nike shoes and headbands.




- Yeah, but its not an act of civil disobedience, only in your mind it is, and its never changed anything, unless maybe its resisting eviction, or something like that.

Sure it is. If i'm following your logic here, a general strike would also not be considered civil disobedience.




- Get your head out of the sand, what ultimatelly your saying, is that poor people don't need to overthrow Capitalism and oppression they can just not work. Yeah, all the serfs in fudalism should have juts become monks. Listen to yourself. Its not only dumb its borderline offensive.

That wasn't anything of what I was saying.

I'm saying a lot of people everywhere from every class get bogged down in this system. They don't realize what true liberation is. They don't even see the open doorways right in front of them.







- Well Capitalists don't think so, niether does anyone else, and its not a threat because the power structure stays the same.

It was a response to your -


I grew up middle class, I work as a relatively well paid wage worker, why on EARTH would I voluntarily decide to have less than what I have now,

Again, the last thing THAT is, is a threat to capitalism.





Does'nt change a thing, Capitalism is global and all intertwined, you can¨'t change it without shifting power.

The corporations are making money because people are buying their products. If people stop buying their products, I don't care if the corporations was transUniversally intertwined, the corporation would feel an affect.




- I've squatted, not because I wanted too, or I thought it would be fun and rebellious, but because I did'nt have a place to sleep. No I hav'nt dived.

You did it out of neccessity.



- If its not a threat to any authority or power structure what does it have to do with Anarchism? Also you said


The last thing that is - is a threat to capitalism.

I was ribbing you. I explained this a little bit earlier in this post. I've said on every page that the immediate reasons for squatting, diving even veganism, is not because its an uber threat.




Soooo



Yeah, but as I said, luxury items being made is'nt th ebad part, its the circumstances.

It doesn't matter if they're making parts for a toyota or toilet seats. Where's the solidarity across borders? What good has union solidarity done if this stuff is still going on?

I'd rather take matters into my own hands. I'm so sick of hearing about worker's direct action. Want to see direct action? I'll stop buying the company's shit. Period. While the union organizers continue their support of Nike town and financial districts around the country by not acting.

The last time I saw solidarity in this country was in 1999 in seattle.




- It means your ultimately implying that workers are just getting it wrong, and that the answer is just dumpster diving,

I have never said or implied that 'just dumpster diving is THE answer'. I have said many things against this idea that it is enough.


- which just means that workers are wasting their time working too feed their families,

Most of the workers around the world would agree with me if I said 'Don't you feel, on most days, like you're wasting your time at work?"

Do you know why? Because they don't have a cushy first world wage job.

Just as squatters refuse to pay rent or mortgage and divers refuse to pay for fresh food when its out back in a dumpster I think we need a global strike where workers stop working. I'll settle for one in america in solidarity with the workers around the world.

We're talking about the same ideology, anarchism or maybe just worker's rights.

If everybody dumpster dived the food business would rethink their waste, people would rethink their consumption.

If more people squatted like out in the tent cities on the west coast, maybe community gardens would spring up, maybe some people would stay. Maybe people would take back to their homes at the end of this crisis a little bit better of an understanding of community.



- Well I hav'nt done much, not as much as many others. However, now due to some work I have done with fellow workers, people at my old company get overtime, paid as employess (not independant contractors), and can work less.

So they can work less AND get overtime?




- Its not much I agree, but at leasts its actually give a few people a little more freedom, and ability to provide, also (at least for a small amount of time) it shifted the power.

The problem is that there have been a million little short shfits of power. A large group of people need to put their foot down and say no. And keep it there. And get beaten, lose their jobs, starve a little, and still keep it there.






- Being a Capitalist has NOTHING to do with having a roof over your head, a bed to sleep on,

It does when you become its patsy and start buying into the corporation's marketing compaigns. Not just any corporations but the top worker's rights violators in the world. As an american.


- and a nice fresh meal, if thats the Case then everyone wants to be a Capitalist except for you crazy rebels. Capitalists are people who have power over other people through capitalist property.

According to merriam, a capitalist is someone who has capital invested in a business. So I guess by supporting Nike, Gap and whoever else is on that top list, you're investing in them.




- I can't, I'm not a Capitalist.

When you live like a capitalist to the point where you fit the definition, it doesn't matter what you think you are, you're a capitalist.




- Its a lot more complicated then that first of all. You know that, if you want me to explain why that won't work I will, but it all boils down too, the capitalists have the Capital, money, resources, and power so ultimately they are giong to make money as long as they have that power.

Where do you think they get this money from? Let me ask you an anarchist question. What if money didn't exist? The answer to the first is they get the money from us. We stop buying their shit physically and metaphorically in any order at all and we'll see a change.


- I don't go to the mall ... nor would I judge anyone that did.

I would think about them. I would wonder if they knew what they were doing.


- Also buy local organic sure, one Capitalists find out theres more money there its gonna be big business too, good job comrade.


:lol: Its not big business its local organic. Community gardens. Local farms.



Being a wage slave is'nt an option for the bast majority of the earth.


Nobody is doing a god damned thing about it. I don't want to know how it could be done. I don't want to have it turned into a collection of essays on labor theory and translated into ten different languages. I want to see it done. I'm sure you're familure with the catch phrase by one of your favorite brands - 'just do it'



but you have fun on your personal soul search.

At least i've thought mine through :)

[Ele'ill]

Individuals might not be making much of a dent, but hey, no need to condemn them for something that is not hurting you in any way shap or form!

This is the exact reason I started posting in this thread.

Also, the labor movements in the united states have not really done much for global worker solidarity. I would consider their actions to be identical to those people dumpster diving and squatting.

When there's a general strike, it will be the same as a mass boycott, mass dumpster diving or mass squatting movement.

We can't compare actions on different scales.

[Dejavu]

I used to work for a company called Ohio Pattern Works , or just Dover Corp's OPW. During that time I was an assembler at the Cincinnati based plant. Union membership was compulsory so I joined. It was the AFL-CIO. We went on a four month strike (http://www.topix.com/forum/city/mason-oh/T8UO98TPG6GI6IQUB). I finally just sought employment somewhere else because it wasn't really getting anywhere. Eventually the Union settled with Dover Corp but the deal was crappy. Only 30 out of 100+ workers would be immediately employed again , with better benefits , while other's would be on 'stand-by.'

They already had a two-tier wage system and they kept that in place even after the massive strike. The point is that the AFL-CIO and Unions like it really do not fight for the worker, trust me , I have first hand experience. Rather, they negotiate first with the corporation and then try to influence the workers to accept it. These Unions are just part of the system , not against it. They seek to establish a monopoly on labor , through the state , just like the corporations seek to establish a monopoly on capital and you guessed it , with the power of the State.

This was a few years back but when I became frustrated with the lack of progress by the union or the company, I was talking to my 'strike shift' co-workers about it and I might have sounded much like a revolutionary socialist. :ohmy: Some of these guys had blind faith in the Union and believed that it was really fighting for their rights. I , and a few others didn't see it that way, and argued that the Union was just an extension of the system and is actually really cosey with the corporation. Its why some of us decided to leave the company and the union , forever.

[Ele'ill]

http://www.stopbuyingstuffmagazine.com/

http://www.adbusters.org

[Lamanov]

Well Vignoles is pretty much anarchist dominated, but officially doesn't put much emphasis on the anarcho.

In order to be considered anarchist it has to relinquish its professional-representative politics.

(Why do anarchosyndicalists oppose professional elections? (http://cnt-ait.info/article.php3?id_article=145) These caused the split in 1996.)


I was talking about just the plain CNT-F that's part of the IWA-AIT.

I believe link lead to Vignoles' site.

[Dejavu]

In order to be considered anarchist it has to relinquish its professional-representative politics.

(Why do anarchosyndicalists oppose professional elections? (http://cnt-ait.info/article.php3?id_article=145) These caused the split in 1996.)



I believe link lead to Vignoles' site.


Odakle si iz Bosne i Hercegovine?

[StalinFanboy]

The elitist attitude is the arrogant attitude that working poor people just need to stop working and dumpster dive, and that thats the solution, and that some how you are morally superior because you don't buy from certain places even though your not making a dent in the system.
Learn to read. No one is claiming to be morally superior or making a dent in the capitalist system. Fuck, honestly I think you're not reading any arguments presented and just saying shit. Most people who would be considered lifestylist don't do it because they think it's revolutionary. They do it because it's appealing to them.

[IcarusAngel]

That's actually a very good point. The psychological effects of capitalism are very detrimental to the human mind - as bad, if not worse, than totalitarianism. All one has to do is read Aldous Huxley to see how this can be the case - or, better yet, Noam Chomsky.

I myself try to avoid corporatism, advertisements, consumerism, etc., as much as possible, not just because I'm anti-capitalist, but because I don't think it's healthy.

[Ele'ill]

That's actually a very good point. The psychological effects of capitalism are very detrimental to the human mind - as bad, if not worse, than totalitarianism. All one has to do is read Aldous Huxley to see how this can be the case - or, better yet, Noam Chomsky.

I myself try to avoid corporatism, advertisements, consumerism, etc., as much as possible, not just because I'm anti-capitalist, but because I don't think it's healthy.

Yes.

It is tied to capitalism, overconsumption the physical and mental environment that we live.

[Bud Struggle]

I myself try to avoid corporatism, advertisements, consumerism, etc., as much as possible, not just because I'm anti-capitalist, but because I don't think it's healthy.

I agree--it's best to avoid advertisements and consumerism of all sorts. Capitalist that I am--we don't have video games or cable TV in our house. And the TV is small and on rabbit ears.

Live is on the outside.

[Jack]

As for boycotts, it is making a dent. That's how capitalism works. If there is no demand for sweat-shop clothing, it stops being made. If millions of people stop buying a certain product, it will impact the profit of the corporation that makes that product.

Individuals might not be making much of a dent, but hey, no need to condemn them for something that is not hurting you in any way shap or form!

Then you have thousands of unemployed people in the 3rd world, starving. That's alot worse than exploitation. No, they can't just dumpster dive and squat.

[Jack]

http://www.stopbuyingstuffmagazine.com/

http://www.adbusters.org



What a surprise.

Wait, what about the workers who have to slave to run your electricity, the paper that trash is printed on etc?

Don't you care!!11!1!one!

[trivas7]

Then you have thousands of unemployed people in the 3rd world, starving. That's alot worse than exploitation. No, they can't just dumpster dive and squat.
Sounds like an argument for capitalism. :D

[Ele'ill]

Then you have thousands of unemployed people in the 3rd world, starving. That's alot worse than exploitation. No, they can't just dumpster dive and squat.


There already are thousands of unemployed people, starving, because of globalization. Because the left and the right in the top countries are supporting the transnational corporations by buying their products because they see nothing wrong AND consuming more than they need.

These people already live in shanty town squats and dive for supplies for their shanties and for food for their families.



What a surprise.

Wait, what about the workers who have to slave to run your electricity, the paper that trash is printed on etc?

Don't you care!!11!1!one!

Its all part of the same problem. One is local, the other is global. The local labor issue of people 'slaving to run' my electricity needs to be dealt with by the labor groups.

The global issue involving the third world needs the support of the general population of the industrialized giants. SAP's and corrupt government working with or for paramilitary goons prevent many of these workers from unionizing. Solidarity means nothing when in some countries solidarity is punishable by landfill executions and apartment bedroom assassinations.


Even if they decided this threat of immediate harm to them and their families was worth a global worker's movement, and they stood up to globalization (as an example), do you really think for a second that there would be an immediate and competent response from the workers in say - the United States?

[Jack]

There already are thousands of unemployed people, starving, because of globalization. Because the left and the right in the top countries are supporting the transnational corporations by buying their products because they see nothing wrong AND consuming more than they need.

Reformist bullshit, for starters. Secondly, industrialization is moving people into the cities in the 3rd world and away from their traditional peasant lifestyle. If a company that employs several thousand people goes down, it brings down all of its employees, leaving them jobless in the cities until another corporation comes along, offering them even lower paying jobs that they will take because they need to.

These people already live in shanty town squats and dive for supplies for their shanties and for food for their families.

I'm sure they're loving it too. Why doesn't the whole world live in slums! After all they are squatted lands and the people make their living off of digging through trash.


Its all part of the same problem. One is local, the other is global. The local labor issue of people 'slaving to run' my electricity needs to be dealt with by the labor groups.

But aren't you still supportng their exploitation? You can't just leave it up to "local labor groups" if you're going to piss and moan about the plight of 3rd world workers, liberal.

The global issue involving the third world needs the support of the general population of the industrialized giants. SAP's and corrupt government working with or for paramilitary goons prevent many of these workers from unionizing. Solidarity means nothing when in some countries solidarity is punishable by landfill executions and apartment bedroom assassinations.

Then we pop the fuckers in the mouth.


Even if they decided this threat of immediate harm to them and their families was worth a global worker's movement, and they stood up to globalization (as an example), do you really think for a second that there would be an immediate and competent response from the workers in say - the United States?

No, but do you think you can mobilize the masses of white middle class liberals to boycott 3rd world products? If you get a corporation out of a country you aren't changing the system, merely reforming it, with disasterous results for their employees.

[Ele'ill]

Reformist bullshit, for starters.

I will literally give you my next paycheck if you can tell me where I mentioned anything about reform.






Secondly, industrialization is moving people into the cities in the 3rd world and away from their traditional peasant lifestyle.

Its possible that globalization is causing people to move in or around cities. As an example, indigenous farmers cannot compete with transnational agribusiness. Dont' overlook what the cause is. Stop it at its roots.



If a company that employs several thousand people goes down, it brings down all of its employees, leaving them jobless in the cities until another corporation comes along, offering them even lower paying jobs that they will take because they need to.

Where was the global worker's solidarity movement here? It should never have gotten to this point. It failed miserably.

This is still happening, we can't undo what's done but we can stop future stuff from happening.


I'm sure they're loving it too. Why doesn't the whole world live in slums! After all they are squatted lands and the people make their living off of digging through trash.

The point you ignored was that they already are squatting and diving to live because it serves a purpose. They know first hand what economic waste is.


But aren't you still supportng their exploitation? You can't just leave it up to "local labor groups" if you're going to piss and moan about the plight of 3rd world workers, liberal.

I'll mention this again for you. Workers in the first world have it better than those in the third. Sure its still an issue but the people that can't defend themselves and the people that can't organize because they'll be killed deserve first attention to those that have settled for being first world consumers and capitalist union patsies.



Then we pop the fuckers in the mouth.

I've been wondering if english is your first language. Some of your responses to my posts are so off topic.



No, but do you think you can mobilize the masses of white middle class liberals to boycott 3rd world products? If you get a corporation out of a country you aren't changing the system, merely reforming it, with disasterous results for their employees.

They were doing ok before the corporations moved in. :)