UAF; Opinions (round 3, i think)

[Holden Caulfield]

Well i have felt this coming on for a while, i thought if i posted some shit from the UAF somebody would defend it but alas they did not come.

Here is some more UAF shit, please discuss




The BNP…

…is a fascist organisation

Fascism stands for the murder of millions, the annihilation of entire communities and the destruction of democracy and human rights. The BNP has its roots in the neo-Nazi group the National Front and has links with the white supremacist, violent group Combat 18. The Channel Five documentary Neo-Nazi Hate Rock showed that the BNP receives money from the sales of neo-Nazi hate music and fundraising. Leading BNP member Mark Collett was caught on Channel 4’s Dispatches documentary in 2002 praising Hitler and claiming that Nazi Germany would have been a better place to live than some parts of Britain.

…hates freedom and democracy

BNP leader Nick Griffin, a life-long Nazi, argued: “The electors of Millwall [backed] what they perceived to be a strong, disciplined organisation with the ability to back up its slogan ‘Defend Rights for Whites’ with well directed boots and fists. When the crunch comes, power is the product of force and will, not of rational debate”.

…has terrorist and criminal connections

David Copeland, who carried out the London nail bombings in Brixton, Brick Lane and Soho said: “My aim was political. It was to cause a racial war… then all the white people would go and vote BNP.”

At the last general election, the BNP stood gang rapists and drug dealers as candidates in some seats, only removing them when they were exposed as criminals.

…is racist

The BNP stand for an all-white Britain, which could only be achieved using violence.

…denies the Holocaust

Six million Jewish people were murdered in the Nazi Holocaust. In total over 15 million Jews, trade unionists, gypsies, Slavs, black, lesbian, gay and disabled people were murdered as a result of Nazi Germany’s murderous policies. Nick Griffin was convicted for inciting racial hatred after a BNP magazine he published denied the reality of the Holocaust.




I dont want to call it sensationalist, nazi screaming, unexplained, non class based, shite but here we are....

discuss (hopefully).
SWP members I'm looking at you:p

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

I am here to inform you that you are now indeed a nazi

(that showed them)

[Hit The North]

Just out of interest, Holden, what do you object to in the above literature?

Secondly, what is the Socialist Party's position on fighting racism and fascism and what are their current initiatives?

Thirdly, don't you have anything better to do that launch these UAF-baiting threads every five minutes?

Finally, how do you think your incessant UAF-baiting furthers the cause of solidarity on the left and strengthens us?

[bellyscratch]

I agree, on the whole, that UAF is guilty of basically just calling the BNP nazis and hoping that will be good enough to deter people from voting for them. However, I think that its not necessarily the case that all local UAF groups follow this.

Just using the example of the Sunderland UAF launch meeting again, there was a distinct oppositon to only bringing up the BNP's connections with nazism and fascism. It was actually 1st raised by an SWP member, and the comments that came after all agreed that we need to dispel the myths that both the BNP and the media put forward on issues such as immigration, and put forward the cause of the real causes of the problems in the country (basically coming from a socialist perspective). Maybe we're just lucky that all the people involved in our group and socialist or quasi-socialist?

Instead of just saying UAF are shit from the sidelines, why not get involved in it, put your point across and try to change the direction of it in your local group?

[Holden Caulfield]

Just out of interest, Holden, what do you object to in the above literature?

calling them nazis, mentioning the holocaust as if people will gasp and run a mile, isn't relevant to the lives of working class people, sickeningly middle class, not class based, no analysis, i could go on


Secondly, what is the Socialist Party's position on fighting racism and fascism and what are their current initiatives? As you might have noticed my line does somewhat deviate from that of the Socialist Party on issues around anti-fascism, however the campaigning we do fighting for issues that the working class care about, and trying to form a new left wing party to represent those betrayed by Labour is a great thing. Also telling you guys to make UAF/StWC etc class based isn't that bad either


Thirdly, don't you have anything better to do that launch these UAF-baiting threads every five minutes?At the moment no, ive got a lot of essays im trying to avoid.


Finally, how do you think your incessant UAF-baiting furthers the cause of solidarity on the left and strengthens us? I hope it will make people, neutrals or not, realise the faults and the poor foundations UAF is build on. A better class based UAF would be simply darling, but I don't see this.

Anyhoo this is about me Bob, back to topic...

Bellyscratch


Instead of just saying UAF are shit from the sidelines, why not get involved in it, put your point across and try to change the direction of it in your local group?

i am involved with my local anti-BNP group, its not part of UAF, but it has the same problems, only nowhere near as bad. I recently told HVLS that it is better to be involved that to sit on the sidelines *****ing, in regards to local groups.

why to I hate on UAF? because it could and should be so much better

[Pogue]

I don't think its brilliant but it could be alot worse. I mean, as I said before, what do you expect from a boradly based liberal coalition?

My main gripes would be:

1) No facts/statistics as to why the sort of stuff the BNP say is wrong (so stats on the reality of immigration i.e. that they don't get special treatment and it isn't over running the country, etc).

2. No class based perspective - "Racism divides the working class"

3. It doesn't propose an alternative. Thats my main issue with UAF. They just tell people not to vote BNP and leave it at that. Before I got into revolutionary politics properly I did some leafletting for them, and the leaflets just say stuff like 'Dont vote for them, they're nasty, look, all these people don't want to vote for them, Ahmir Khan, Alan Sugar, etc'. It misses the point of why people vote for them. The Ahmir Khan bit was good but then the Alan Sugar thing was sort pro-capitalist because it talks about how racism is 'bad for business', but for most working class people thats not relevant and we know Alan Sugar is our class enemy too. It just doesn't actually propose an alternative. I reckon if someone started posing a solid alternative the BNP could be smashed to shits. I don't advocate electoralism or reformism, but if UAF focused attentions on making an anti-fascist left wing working class party, or developed real, fighting unions the BNP could be taken down in a matter of months. But they haven't done that, and they wont because their mainly liberals and broad-based cross-party. Even if they did create a party, and it was a strong one, how long until it sells out like Labour again and we're back to square one anyway.

In regards to it being sensationalist, I think they need to get the balance right. Its good to hilight how the BNP are far-right, and to hilight the quotes, links, crimes etc, but UAF do it too much in isolation, it needs to go alongside a coherent analysis of class, why fascism is bad for the class, and why the BNP are not a normal, respectable party. I'd say they should keep most of the stuff about how the BNP deny the holocaust, are racist etc but fit it in with class based stuff.

Obviously thats not going to happen which is why we need to do it in a revolutionary, class based way. If I was making a leaflet about the BNP for a militant revolutionayr anti-fascist group I'd mention how they don't actually propose any solutions that will make working people's lives better, how they divide workers, how the bosses are the real enemy, and then I'd mention the Holocaust and Nazi stuff too, perhaps in a box or seperate area saying 'The nature of the BNP' or something. UAF *just* mention that the BNP are racist without putting it into context or building upon it, and although its true and needs to be put out there, on its own its not effective. But that fits into their general trend. Their tactics, although admirable in the efforts of the members, don't work, because their leaflets as I said don't propose an alternative, and the marches often go unreported, even though they get 10,000 odd people to turn up. I think marches have to be done in working class areas at strategically vital times, with the full involvement of the community, and leaflets have to propose solutions.

[bellyscratch]

i am involved with my local anti-BNP group, its not part of UAF, but it has the same problems, only nowhere near as bad. I recently told HVLS that it is better to be involved that to sit on the sidelines *****ing, in regards to local groups.


Thats fair enough, but it doesn't seem very true of the rest of the Socialist Party from what I've seen. Based on my experience, they seem to be pretty good at *****ing from the sidelines about organisations like UAF and StWC. Is there a reason why there is a lack of presence in these, apart from them not wanting to work in an organisation that the SWP have influence in? It just seems to me that their opinions might get across more if they did it from inside the organisation.

Maybe I've got things wrong, but just from my experiences so far (apart from you HC, as I've been to StWC meeting with you) nobody from the Socialist Party wans to be involved in these organisations, soley based on a resentment for SWP.

[Pogue]

Thats fair enough, but it doesn't seem very true of the rest of the Socialist Party from what I've seen. Based on my experience, they seem to be pretty good at *****ing from the sidelines about organisations like UAF and StWC. Is there a reason why there is a lack of presence in these, apart from them not wanting to work in an organisation that the SWP have influence in? It just seems to me that their opinions might get across more if they did it from inside the organisation.

Maybe I've got things wrong, but just from my experiences so far (apart from you HC, as I've been to StWC meeting with you) nobody from the Socialist Party wans to be involved in these organisations, soley based on a resentment for SWP.

I don't think its got anything to do with just resentment. I have been on loads of Stop the War stuff with friends in a personal capacity, and also I've gone on and probably would still go on a UAF march just to meet people, make a point, boost numbers etc. Its just STWC has a reputation for basically being the SWPs recruiting ground and alot of people object to that. I mean SP are always there with banners, placards and stalls at the end, but they just don't want to get involved in the internal politics and neither do I, as an anarchist, because it sounds fucking shit basically. Theres getting involved and then theres just getting into meaningless political organisational debates, splits and being a pawn of the SWP, although I think there is some shitty sectarian stuff going on thats well documented, I used to read the socialist party paper every week when I was about 12 and when I went on demos and saw the SWP I was like 'Wtf they have the same politics'. Alot of it is like 'Whose the best trot group'. My opposition as an anarchist would come from basically we're not into shit like shitty internal politics in the StWC etc and we don't like being controlled, but we still want to be active in opposing the wars. I think with the SP its the same but alot of it is not wanting to be second best to the SWP.

[Hit The North]

calling them nazis, mentioning the holocaust as if people will gasp and run a mile, isn't relevant to the lives of working class people, sickeningly middle class, not class based, no analysis, i could go on


Yes, and a good deal more coherently.


however the campaigning we do fighting for issues that the working class care about, and trying to form a new left wing party to represent those betrayed by Labour is a great thing.
Funnily enough, the SWP is also doing this. You should join us.
But that obviously isn't the job of a broad based, single-campaign alliance like the UAF.


I hope it will make people, neutrals or not, realise the faults and the poor foundations UAF is build on. A better class based UAF would be simply darling, but I don't see this. Neither do I.

[Pogue]

Yes, and a good deal more coherently.


Well he made his points, they aren't building upon that and getting down to the issues which effect working class people over here.


Funnily enough, the SWP is also doing this. You should join us.
But that obviously isn't the job of a broad based, single-campaign alliance like the UAF.

Oh, so thats what your trying to do. I was confused for a bit.


Neither do I.

And as members of that group and employing the tactic of participation in and radicalisation of mass organisations, surely you should question why this is the case.

You go on about participating in these campaigns to radicalise people but I don't see it happening. On the Palestine demos all you did was say 'Support Hamas', no revolutionary socialist stance on it at all, and then Bobkindles says that the demos 'radicalised young muslims'. I can't see how it did, because socialist ideas were not being spread. I saw one SWP woman actually communicating with people, she was admirable, the rest of them ran off when things got a bit heated (literally packed up stalls and weren't seen again). On Stop the War socialism or international working class action is a dirty word, you just hear the same old speeches which everyone already knows about, and in UAF you never heard talk of a class based alternative, which leads me to believe the SWP are not actually trying, or at least succeeding, in radicalising anyone, and is instead using these groups as an excuse to exert more power and feel special.

[Patchd]

I saw one SWP woman actually communicating with people, she was admirable, the rest of them ran off when things got a bit heated (literally packed up stalls and weren't seen again).

Well, I didn't see that. What I did see however were StWC organisers helping the police to push back protesters.

[Pogue]

Well, I didn't see that. What I did see however were StWC organisers helping the police to push back protesters.

I saw that on the 100,000 people march. But when they ran for it was on the latter demonstration, the third one in (for people who werent there, we had one each weekend for 4 weeks, and I went to three of these, the first three, the first one was where we got batoned in the tunnell but got to the embassy, the second was the 100,000 people demo which had alot of police brutality outside the embassy and the third was a rally that had a bit of a march and a bunch of us got detained for no reason and kept for 2 hours then let off without charge).

[Melbourne Lefty]

Its pretty simple.

The UAFs current approach is not working, you can argue about WHY forever. But firstly it has to be admitted that UAF has not had a win since it provided a lot of the protesters for the Oxford Union debate.

The RWB protest was a shambles. The various rallies against the BNP conferences in Blackpool get smaller by the week.

Searchlight keeps the anti-BNP articles going in the press [whatever else you may say about them]. Antifa keeps the BNP jumping when trying to plan venues and stops them from holding public meetings.

UAF does... what? It herd university students from campus to wherever they want some numbers and then they herd them back again. Then it tries to recruit them into the SWP.

How the hell is that helping?:confused:

[Holden Caulfield]

No more from the SWP?

I herd Harriet Harman rang up UAF and told them the government polling shows the BNP will get 3 seats. The UAF and Labour MPs seem to get on well, adding more fuel to the fire of right-wing rumors that UAF is a Labour Party front (which are false, but you can see where it comes from).

We can perhaps take some joy from the fact my local UAF chose not to herd a load of nazi screaming students out into one of the estates to 'counter' a BNP meeting taking place in a pub, on St George's day. It wasnt cancelled because of its dumbness, the fact it would hand the BNP a massive propaganda victory, the fact they would be killed (i exaggerate) or anything like that, but because UAF had issues over whether the venue they were told was the one it would be held at.

Alls well that ends well tho.

[Sam_b]

Also telling you guys to make UAF/StWC etc class based isn't that bad either


It would maybe do something as well if you didn't do it from the sidelines and from Taffe's books, and actually worked within the organisations to achieve these aims.

I feel that your constant UAF-baiting and the like is merely to try and excuse your own organisation from failing to try and build a movement against war and racism, and as such I won't indulge you in this thread full of 'apparently's 'i heard's and half-truths.

[Holden Caulfield]

It would maybe do something as well if you didn't do it from the sidelines and from Taffe's books, and actually worked within the organisations to achieve these aims.

I feel that your constant UAF-baiting and the like is merely to try and excuse your own organisation from failing to try and build a movement against war and racism, and as such I won't indulge you in this thread full of 'apparently's 'i heard's and half-truths.

what I just said isnt a half truth, if you personally want to contact the SWP full timer who i over heard saying it be must guest PM me, ill intoduce you to him at marxism as well.

I didnt make it up.

We dont tell the working class why war and racism is bad from a middle class liberal non class based ivory tower, we engage them on issues they care about and raise class consciousness.

We dont just call them all Nazis. If your not one and just go along to the meeting because you want an alternative to Labour and can't find one having a middle class student call you a nazi is a not likely to win you over to the left.

we know about working class issues and would do the pub on Saint George's day, or go through the middle of Sunderland shouting 'Black and White Unite' because what would, and did happen, is kids equate it with NUFC and throw shit at you. When one of our members tells them this will happen they tell us we are being stupid.

I dont sit on the side lines either, i got incontact with the SWP/UAF guy (who is somewhat of a personal friend) and voiced my concerns, as an organisation some our the SP branch members were gonna go out to see how it went and help leafletting.

Any more criticisms?

[Sam_b]

An awful lot to say on how the other side are bad, but absolutely nothing concrete that you as an organisation has done. This speaks volumes.

This'll be my last post on all of this. I'm sick and tired of having to defend decent organisations like UAF and STWC against completely irrational 'non-position' arguments such as:


middle class liberal

[AlMack]

An awful lot to say on how the other side are bad, but absolutely nothing concrete that you as an organisation has done. This speaks volumes.

This'll be my last post on all of this. I'm sick and tired of having to defend decent organisations like UAF and STWC against completely irrational 'non-position' arguments such as:


from what i know of the SP's line they are behind the CNWP, no good telling people not to vote BNP if theres no alternative
also the no to eu yes to democracy in the euros

the local non-UAF AFs in my area are from all kinds of backgrounds & groups & put sectarian differences aside to band together for a more multi-faceted approach

[Holden Caulfield]

middle class liberal
its not just slander is it tho. If you do not have class based politics, offer no alternative and think that recounting the crimes of fascisms-gone-by will win over the masses then it is just a liberal moral argument.

The BNPs literature plays on people material concerns and that is why they are growing, the fact Griffin don't like Jews is of little concern to somebody who is looking for an political party to represent the working class, i.e. Themselves.

[Melbourne Lefty]

I herd Harriet Harman rang up UAF and told them the government polling shows the BNP will get 3 seats. The UAF and Labour MPs seem to get on well, adding more fuel to the fire of right-wing rumors that UAF is a Labour Party front (which are false, but you can see where it comes from).



yes it is a bit that wasy isnt it?

Take a look at any BNP blog or site and they all describe UAF and being "Labour party funded" or "labour party supporters".

Not much to worry about, but something thats repeated that often has a way of finding its way into wider discourse.


or go through the middle of Sunderland shouting 'Black and White Unite' because what would, and did happen, is kids equate it with NUFC and throw shit at you. When one of our members tells them this will happen they tell us we are being stupid.

My God is UAF so middle class it doesnt even realise how important football rivalries are to working class communities anymore?:confused:

I hope you are joking HC. Cos if thats representative of the UAFs wider approach on the ground then they might just be doing more harm than good.