Homeopathy and Alternative Medicine's - The Ultimate Bullshit.

[pastradamus]

I've always been a staunch opponent of bullshit like Homeopathy, Herbal Medicine and some of those stupid Chinese Traditional remedies you find out there. Its not just the fact they exists that bothers me, its the fact they exists and make big, big, big bucks! I UK spent over £1 Billion on alternative medicines last year.Well, maybe snake oil isn't selling so well, lately. But acupuncture? "Organic" foods? Hair analysis? The latest diet book? Megavitamins? "Stress formulas"? Cholesterol-lowering teas? Homeopathic remedies? Magnets? Nutritional "cures" for AIDS? Products that "cleanse your system"? Or shots to pep you up? Business is booming for health quacks. Their annual take is in the billions! Spot reducers, "immune boosters," water purifiers, "ergogenic aids," systems to "balance body chemistry," special diets for arthritis. Their product list is endless.

Another Point I would like to make is that it distracts people from actual medicine and some companies actually offer Herbal cures for such untreatable diseases as Aid's and Cancer. Its a total disgrace that these people be allowed to do this.

http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/homeo.html

[Dóchas]

this is all you need to watch ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAOFjS5bgZI&feature=PlayList&p=CD0BF0B164CB24F2&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=3

edit:shit its not the one i thought it was but if anyone can find dara o'briain no chinese medicine its fucking hilarious

[pastradamus]

this is all you need to watch ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAOFjS5bgZI&feature=PlayList&p=CD0BF0B164CB24F2&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=3

Have the video. Brilliant!:laugh:

[Dóchas]

Have the video. Brilliant!:laugh:

same here hes such a genius. sorry in advance for derailing your thread

[Bright Banana Beard]

Home Remedy is rarely practice in USA. If you try to move to third-world place, the home remedy are common there that I was shocked to learn my cough is gone by night (I have to rest). Good grief that those commercial medicine are really a joke!

[Sasha]

yeah, i think you need to difrentiate a bit here
there is nothing wrong with alternative medecine, there is sommething wrong with clear bullshit like homeopathy.
i mean, on my doctors advice i take ginger for my problems with my knuckels, it clearly helps.
hell you would be hard pressed to find a bigger critic of alternative medicine than me but when a chinese frind gave me acupunture it realy worked, god knows why but it helped.
so yeah, i agree with your sentiment and i think its a huge disgrace that stuff like homeopathy (water got a memory religion) is included in the healtcare plans but some shit does work, but it should be proven.

[Sean]

The only problem with homeopathy is that it parts fools with their money. However, the placebo affect has been proven countless times to work, and doctors themselves have been known to cure people with placebos. Therefore all you're really doing is creating the little bit of ritual/theatrics to imbue something that actually does nothing with the power to heal you, in the same way if it came from a doctor it must be medicine. In some cases its healthier for the person than giving them strong medicines which would essentially be overkill for their bodies for a mild complaint that can be cured through the placebo effect.

I think that they should be seen as complimentary and not alternative. The alternative to having kidney failure isnt to dilute some kidney in water so many times maybe one particle is left, for example. There is a great talk on this floating around on the internet but I can't for the life of me remember it.

[TheCagedLion]

I can highly recommend http://skepdic.com/ for all your skeptic needs

[pastradamus]

yeah, i think you need to difrentiate a bit here
there is nothing wrong with alternative medecine, there is sommething wrong with clear bullshit like homeopathy.
i mean, on my doctors advice i take ginger for my problems with my knuckels, it clearly helps.
hell you would be hard pressed to find a bigger critic of alternative medicine than me but when a chinese frind gave me acupunture it realy worked, god knows why but it helped.
so yeah, i agree with your sentiment and i think its a huge disgrace that stuff like homeopathy (water got a memory religion) is included in the healtcare plans but some shit does work, but it should be proven.

Ah, I see where your coming from so im gonna have to clear up a few things here.

Firstly, Accupuncture. Accupuncture is actually effective for some kinds of pain and is recommended and verified by the WHO. However, the vast majority of claims made by accupuncturists are complete tripe. It dosent cure anything - its a form of pain relief.

Secondly, the ginger. That's not alternative medicine. The doctor recommended that you eat that because its studied and it contains anti-irrantant properties. Medical reserchers are responsible for checking properties in plants which are beneficial to humans. Some of the commercialy sold tripe medicines contain nothing which is proven to work. Just claimed off a hunch.

Third, Alternative medicine and Medicine are different things altogether. When an Alternative Medicine is proven to work it becomes MEDICINE.

Also, your right on about homeopathy and yeah, that basically it - water has a memory religion! haha :laugh:

[pastradamus]

Also guys, might I recommend watching Richard Dawkins "the enemies of reason". He blows this one wide open.

[hugsandmarxism]

Homeopathy at its finest:

Headon. Apply directly to the forehead! Headon. Apply directly to the forehead! Headon. Apply directly to the forehead! Headon. Apply directly to the forehead!

If you doctor recommends this, I recommend you get a new doctor.

[Sean]

f_SwD7RveNE

[ComradeOm]

Is that some sort of superliminal advertising? :blink:

[Dóchas]

what exactly does headon cure or do you just smear it on your head for the craic? :confused::lol:

[pastradamus]

what exactly does headon cure or do you just smear it on your head for the craic? :confused::lol:
My best guess is that its for headaches but what the hell do I know. I never tried it nor do I ever intend on doing so! pseudo-scientific garbage.

[Dóchas]

My best guess is that its for headaches but what the hell do I know. I never tried it nor do I ever intend on doing so! pseudo-scientific garbage.

taking from what the industry is like its probably for "cleansing your soul" or some other shit

[Invincible Summer]

Ah, I see where your coming from so im gonna have to clear up a few things here.

Firstly, Accupuncture. Accupuncture is actually effective for some kinds of pain and is recommended and verified by the WHO. However, the vast majority of claims made by accupuncturists are complete tripe. It dosent cure anything - its a form of pain relief.

Secondly, the ginger. That's not alternative medicine. The doctor recommended that you eat that because its studied and it contains anti-irrantant properties. Medical reserchers are responsible for checking properties in plants which are beneficial to humans. Some of the commercialy sold tripe medicines contain nothing which is proven to work. Just claimed off a hunch.

Third, Alternative medicine and Medicine are different things altogether. When an Alternative Medicine is proven to work it becomes MEDICINE.


Then what, pray tell, is "alternative medicine?"

[MarxSchmarx]

Then what, pray tell, is "alternative medicine?"

Medical treatments for which there is no solid empirical evidence as to their efficacy.

[ComradeOm]

If you doctor recommends this, I recommend you get a new doctor.Of course you should always doublecheck what your doctor gives you anyway. If you live in the US at least. I briefly worked for a major pharmaceutical company and was frankly amazed by the lengths that these 'legit' corporations will go to in order to push their products. If a doctor recommends the latest 'blockbuster' drug, check to see if there's a cheaper (real) alternative available. If so he may be on commission from a pharma company

Which is exactly why there's such a market for bizarre remedies like this 'HeadOn'

[Cumannach]

Capitalist Medicine is hugely corrupted by private profiteering (and another problem is the uncritical prestige with which doctors demand to be treated and their arrogant hostility to being questioned or challenged-that may not uniquely be a characteristic of capitalist medicine, but it certainly complements it.)

The alternative medicines actually play a very useful purpose for mainstream establishment medicine- to portray any challenge to mainstream medicine as quackery and fraud, which of course, most of alternative medicine is. One example, is the use of the Cult of Scientology- mainstream Psychiatry portrays the anti-bio-psychiatry movement as being tied up with the profiteering Cult of Scientology because those criminal fraudsters includes some bits of anti-Psychiatry talk in their portfolio of quackery. So when non-conformist psychiatrists and researchers try to argue for treatment approaches that use less wildly profitable psychiatric drugs and more psychotherapy, they are smeared and vilified as equivalent to scientologists or other fraudsters. And that label of course prevents them from being taken seriously.

[Jazzratt]

Alternate medicine, especially homeopothy is scary shit. The idea that these people can conscionce selling this bollocks to people who could actually have illnesses that could be treated with real medicine is beyond belief. How the hell do these quacks live with themselves?

[ls]

Medical treatments for which there is no solid empirical evidence as to their efficacy.

And with that you're trusting pharmaceutical companies hand-in-hand with governments looking to make billions to provide this so-called 'empirical evidence'.

[Picky Bugger]

And with that you're trusting pharmaceutical companies hand-in-hand with governments looking to make billions to provide this so-called 'empirical evidence'.

This is really a side issue, regardless of the political or economical reason a drug is developed the fact that modern medicine is tested/trialed and peer reviewed means that it is in every way possible superior to homeopathy and all that shit.

[ls]

This is really a side issue, regardless of the political or economical reason a drug is developed the fact that modern medicine is tested/trialed and peer reviewed means that it is in every way possible superior to homeopathy and all that shit.

I'm not saying homeopathy is of any use, but if by "all that shit" - you include things that obviously work (i.e. ginger and to an extent acupuncture) and have obviously been working thanks to people actively using it for centuries, then that is a redundant argument.

[Coggeh]

Firstly, Accupuncture. Accupuncture is actually effective for some kinds of pain and is recommended and verified by the WHO. However, the vast majority of claims made by accupuncturists are complete tripe. It dosent cure anything - its a form of pain relief.

Acupuncture is a form of pain and tension relief on muscles , it works on what 90% of (slight rational) acupuncturists say its supposed to do . The only problem is on the study conducted a while back they concluded that a trained acupuncturist and any average person will have the same effect no matter where they stick the needles . They also concluded (theoretically) that a drunk monkey poking needles into you in random places would have about the same effect too.

Its soothing , its not medicine nor is it a cure for anything like you said . Its like if a doctor said oh broken leg .. here have a stress ball .

[Picky Bugger]

No I did not mean that, clearly some plants etc do help but I would say that the majority are nothing but a placebo especially ones touted by people trying to make a quick buck. Whilst the ones that do have an affect can hardly be said to be efficient certainly not compared to much of modern medicine.

Also to say that because something has been used for centuries it must have an affect is wrong, there are countless examples of things that people have believed to be true that are wrong.

[Coggeh]

I'm not saying homeopathy is of any use, but if by "all that shit" - you include things that obviously work (i.e. ginger and to an extent acupuncture) and have obviously been working thanks to people actively using it for centuries, then that is a redundant argument.

Their are better and more effective things than ginger out their for healing your aliments . I'd stick with the sore injection .

[Coggeh]

Also to say that because something has been used for centuries it must have an affect is wrong, there are countless examples of things that people have believed to be true that are wrong.
Aye , I hate all these traditional Chinese medicine shops opening , when the Chinese were using these as medicine the average life span was 35 , nowadays its in the 70's , thank you no bullsh*t modern medicine :)

[Dóchas]

Aye , I hate all these traditional Chinese medicine shops opening , when the Chinese were using these as medicine the average life span was 35 , nowadays its in the 70's , thank you no bullsh*t modern medicine :)

again dara obriain has something to say about this but i cant find it :lol:

To be honest i think a lot of these alternative cures are a case of "mind over matter" like someone else said people have been know to have been cured with placebos because they think they are getting the medicine they need.

[Picky Bugger]

Indeed and this is the issue that makes it hard to disprove and stop this kind of "medicine" the placebo affect keeps this industry alive.

[Coggeh]

again dara obriain has something to say about this but i cant find it :lol:

To be honest i think a lot of these alternative cures are a case of "mind over matter" like someone else said people have been know to have been cured with placebos because they think they are getting the medicine they need.
Thats basically what he said , I took out the part about the tiger penis of course :p

[Dóchas]

Thats basically what he said , I took out the part about the tiger penis of course :p

ye i knew it sounded familier!!! :laugh:

[Invincible Summer]

Aye , I hate all these traditional Chinese medicine shops opening , when the Chinese were using these as medicine the average life span was 35 , nowadays its in the 70's , thank you no bullsh*t modern medicine :)

maybe where you live they're just starting to gain popularity or whatever, but where I live, the Chinese have been part of the history for over 100 years now, so all the traditional Chinese shops are pretty commonplace.

[pastradamus]

maybe where you live they're just starting to gain popularity or whatever, but where I live, the Chinese have been part of the history for over 100 years now, so all the traditional Chinese shops are pretty commonplace.

That proves little if anything. Where is the evidence that the bulk of these traditional medicines actually work? They do not submit these medicines to scientific testing before hand so I dont believe in the basis of them.

[MarxSchmarx]

Originally Posted by MarxSchmarx http://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/../showthread.php?p=1420028#post1420028)
Medical treatments for which there is no solid empirical evidence as to their efficacy. And with that you're trusting pharmaceutical companies hand-in-hand with governments looking to make billions to provide this so-called 'empirical evidence'. Well of course the empirical evidence could be doctored, but that's a matter of social contingency and not an argument against using empirical evidence as the gold standard in the first place.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

I agree that much of it is some bullshit, but it does often work on people who...are willing to believe that it works. Cynics need not apply.

I do think canibis could replace many highly-addictive opiate pain-killers for a lot of people. And it has, there have been many cancer patients who weren't able to hold food down on normal medicine and are now recovering.

As well as other very addictive pills. Ambien and Lunesta both immediately come to mind...

[Invincible Summer]

That proves little if anything. Where is the evidence that the bulk of these traditional medicines actually work? They do not submit these medicines to scientific testing before hand so I dont believe in the basis of them.


I'm not saying the fact that they've been around longer around here proves they work. I was just saying that it's not a "new thing" to have Chinese traditional medicine shops, as opposed to what I understood Coggeh to be suggesting.

[pastradamus]

I'm not saying homeopathy is of any use, but if by "all that shit" - you include things that obviously work (i.e. ginger and to an extent acupuncture) and have obviously been working thanks to people actively using it for centuries, then that is a redundant argument.


Ginger is not an alternative medicine. Its anti-irritant properties were discovered through scientific research. Its nutritional value. It owes nothing to the alternative medicine crowd. For example if I am lacking in Iron my doctor would tell me to eat something with Iron in it. This is because my doctor knows which food contains Iron through his own scientific knowledge and advises (not proscribes) me to consume it. Same thing with ginger.

[pastradamus]

I'm not saying the fact that they've been around longer around here proves they work. I was just saying that it's not a "new thing" to have Chinese traditional medicine shops, as opposed to what I understood Coggeh to be suggesting.

Yes, but there is this new craze for alternative medicines in the west and to most western people Chinese traditional medicines are a new concept.