Is Marilyn Manson a (dumb) fascist?

[Das war einmal]

I was listening to the Antichrist superstar album and while I did I wondered about several things:

-In the well-known song 'the beautiful people' in which Manson clearly states 'capitalism has made it this way, old fashioned fascism will take it away', stating he thinks that fascism is in fact an anti-capitalist movement (it could not be further away from the truth), in the videoclip of this song you see marilyn manson as some kind of Mussolini at a balcony with cheering people beneath him
-On the live version of the 'antichrist superstar' the storm sign (which is also on the cd print of that same album) appears on banners, a black flashsign on a white circle surrounded by an outher red circle'
-On the song 1996 there are the following lyrics:

anti choice
anti girl
I am the anti-flag unfurled
anti white and anti man
I got the anti-future plan
anti fascist
anti mod
I am the anti-music god
anti sober
anti whore
there will never be enough of anti more
I can't believe in the things
that don't believe in me
now it's your turn to see what I hate about me
anti people now you've gone too far
here's your antichrist superstar
Now you can interpertate that Manson finds himself either a fascist or that he in fact hates all this anti-people.

- There are a few songs which may indicate racism like the song rock 'n roll nigger
- On the Golden Age of Grotesque album there are pictures of Manson and other band members in nazi clothing, only with the signs removed. The theme of this album was Berlin in the interbellum if I remember it right...


This all makes me wonder if Manson admires fascism or is doing it all out just to shock, as he is a schock rocker after all. Anyway i think he is pretty stupid, if he really thinks fascism is a anticapitalist and antichristianity force.

[Dr Mindbender]

I doubt that Manson is politically motivated at all. Most musicians and cultural devotees of his genre tend to be nihilists, showing equal contempt for both sides of the political fence.

He came across in 'bowling for colombine' as pretty progressive when he was being interviewed by Michael Moore though.

[Pirate Utopian]

-In the well-known song 'the beautiful people' in which Manson clearly states 'capitalism has made it this way, old fashioned fascism will take it away', stating he thinks that fascism is in fact an anti-capitalist movement (it could not be further away from the truth), in the videoclip of this song you see marilyn manson as some kind of Mussolini at a balcony with cheering people beneath him
Lenin said a similiar thing (not a fan of Lenin or Marilyn Manson) how capitalism in decay is fascism. The video is probably parody


-On the live version of the 'antichrist superstar' the storm sign (which is also on the cd print of that same album) appears on banners, a black flashsign on a white circle surrounded by an outher red circle'
So? What does it mean?


-On the song 1996 there are the following lyrics:
Now you can interpertate that Manson finds himself either a fascist or that he in fact hates all this anti-people.
It seems like a mockery of his public image.


- There are a few songs which may indicate racism like the song rock 'n roll nigger
That's a cover of Patti Smith. Who wrote it in appreciation of people she idolised wich she called nigger as a term of respect.


- On the Golden Age of Grotesque album there are pictures of Manson and other band members in nazi clothing, only with the signs removed. The theme of this album was Berlin in the interbellum if I remember it right...
He's a shockrocker like you said.


This all makes me wonder if Manson admires fascism or is doing it all out just to shock, as he is a schock rocker after all. Anyway i think he is pretty stupid, if he really thinks fascism is a anticapitalist and antichristianity force.
That's not what he said.
Also fascism isnt the same economic system as capitalism it's corporatism.

[Sasha]

in short? no (neither dumb nor fascist), like said above he is a shock rocker who had an good look at earlier bands like laibach and others.

about the lightingflash symbol, yes, that is an fascist symbol (english pre-war fascists the buf http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/31/British_Union_of_Fascists_flag.ant.svg/150px-British_Union_of_Fascists_flag.ant.svg.png)
and i think its inconsidered to use the symbol but that doesnt make him a fascist. ("death in june" on the other hand, now that is sommething completely difrent en defintly facist)

[Das war einmal]

Ok thanks people, thats good to hear. I really did not think MM was supporting fascism, although I wasnt totally sure. As Twiggy and Tim Skold are/used to be band members I would find it very awkward if it was true. Twiggy was also part of NIN, which is a very progressive band and Skold has been cooperating a lot with KMFDM which is also progressive (I believe they are even openly left anarchists)

[mykittyhasaboner]

2 words: shock value.

Marylin Manson is out there to turn heads and piss the right people off. He is a good musician and simply appeals to more of a counter-everything kind of outlook on life; like mentioned earlier, nihilism. That said if hes pretending to be Mussolini-like figure in one of his videos then his doing to to be a bad ass, not to make a political statement. He also does some cool shit, like tearing up a bible on stage and pretends to be transgendered for the fuck of it.

No need to be concerned about any politics coming from him, although I'm sure his he has fairly progressive views considering how open he is about such controversial issues. I guess its already been established that hes a "shock rocker", but that's just how I see it.

[Vendetta]

We could always go with just that Marilyn Manson is just dumb.

And his music sucks.

[Arise!]

Fascists probably don't want people like Marilyn Manson to even exist.
And I've seen a few interviews, he comes off as pretty intelligent, although his music is not for me.

[Mowgli]

We could always go with just that Marilyn Manson is just dumb.

And his music sucks.

Or we could be happy that there are still artists who say FUCK OFF to conformity. We mustn't underestimate the value of such figures. They are able to open a lot of people's eyes on society's brainwash, especially young people.

[Hiero]

As people have said Marilyn Manson is a nihilist. Antichrist superstar is based on the works of Nietzsche, and most of his works are aslo influenced by other post-modernist or to put it in another way decentred moralist philosophies.

The song beautiful people is about society creation of hierachy, for instance the hierarchy of beauty. That is why he says says "capitalism has made it this way,old fashioned fascism will take it away". That does not contain any statement that he believe fascism is either a anti-capitalist movement or something he agrees with. Rather I assume he means in the post-modern world we have things like Fascism to rank humans beings in some fashion or another. Or something to that affect, I don't know Nietzsche nor do I know that Marilyn Manson understands Nietzsche.

I would say that Marilyn Manson does use shock value for entertainment purposes. However there is some consistency in his themes that indicate some form of post-modern philosophy. His lyrics are a analysis of "post-moder society". I see it most clear in his album Mechanical Animals.


Because its a great big white world
And we are drained of our colors
We used to love
ourselves,
We used to love one another
All my stitches itch
My prescriptions low, I wish you
Were queen
Just for today
In a world so white what else could I say?

That is from Great Big White World. I think here Marilyn Manson here is talking about two eras. There is a transition to a new era where drug like things (white, drained of colours etc represeting white which is the colour of some pills and cocaine so representing drugs, but also through the album pop culture, tv violence etc are synonymous with drugs) control our lifes and mediate our emotions. We no longer love ourselves or each other, loves is impossible and we just get absorbed into objects in a post human society where humans are no longer the centre of life and society. Our society being able to produce synthetic drugs and sythnetic culture (tv, hyper real etc) humans have been pushed aside in our focus of lifesd.

That is much as I can come up with, I think that is where you get this anti-human/ist lyrics. It is not neccassarily that Marilyn Manson has these thoughts on how society should be, rather he is saying this is how society is in the current era.


- On the Golden Age of Grotesque album there are pictures of Manson and other band members in nazi clothing, only with the signs removed. The theme of this album was Berlin in the interbellum if I remember it right...

Yeah, and this again does not indicate he is fascist, this is mearly a theme. If Marilyn Manson was a fascist I don't think he would paint such themes in dreary perspective. In all these themes it seems to me more about the decay of humanist tradition into a post-human world.

[Yazman]

ITT people fail to understand the allegory that is marilyn manson lyrics.. Hiero, you've done a good job.

He's not a fascist at all. Antichrist Superstar is part of a trilogy that tells a story, referred to as the "triptych." I could explain it but I couldn't be bothered to, so here's the summary from the mansonwiki:


The Triptych's actual timeline is accepted to begin with Holy Wood (In the Shadow of the Valley of Death), Mechanical Animals, and finally Antichrist Superstar, reversed from the actual release of each album. However, each album's interpretation is debatable, and far more so when interpreted as a whole story.

Each installment of the Triptych takes place in one world. Each of the album's main protagonists is one single entity but reinterpreted on each album. In "Holy Wood" the character is Adam Kadmon, a rebel from the Valley of Death, which is essentially a dwelling of "rejects", who leads a revolution against Holy Wood, which is populated by the rich and famous; who are the same as "The Beautiful People". Adam has a interest for Coma Black though. His revolution is a bitter sweet success in that while he does eradicate Holy Wood, the mainstream media soon transforms the revolution and makes it just as fake, profiteering, and hollow as Holy Wood. All of this leads to Adam's assumed suicide.

Mechanical Animals focuses on Coma White, as she is now known, and Omēga, a decadent and sexually ambiguous androgynous alien who, much like David Bowie's "Ziggy Stardust", falls down to earth, is captured and then turned into a rock star product. Another lesser character on the album is Alpha who is more Manson like. Omēga, just like Adam, has a love interest for Coma. As a rock star, Omēga becomes increasingly addicted to drugs, emotionally dissociated and nihilistic. All the while his relationship with Coma grows more dysfunctional and falls into disrepair. Like Adam, Omēga also snaps.

Finally the Antichrist Superstar storyline begins. It follows one main character and the two stages of his life; The Worm and The Disintegrator. The Worm is likened to "an insignificant shadow looking for his place in an infinite world of light." In his journey, he becomes a fascistic, repressive tyrant, the eponymous "Antichrist Superstar", known alternatively as "The Disintegrator", who in his vitriol, betrays everything the revolution fought for and along the way destroys everyone and everything around him.
Source: http://www.mansonwiki.com/wiki/Triptych

Marilyn Manson's lyrics are rarely ever meant literally, the vast majority of the time they are meant as part of a story being told (as in the triptych albums) or as part of an overarching theme.

Its basically the story of an underclass revolution that is successful, but fails to achieve its goals and becomes everything that the revolutionaries fought against. He's described this stuff many times, and he's even written a book about it that was never released. Adam Kadmon is the main character throughout the triptych.

[Skin_HeadBanger]

Don't think he is a fascist, but I still can't stand him or his music, and this is coming from someone who's into industrial music.

[BogdanV]

I can't stand him or his music either as I find it lacking any kind of elegance for my subjective tastes.
Also, I find it kinda ironic that someone who portrays the decay and misery of modern-day society and culture, is in turn used by the media to promote and maintain today's pseudo-culture.

[Skin_HeadBanger]

That's exactly it though, he's a fake, egotistical attentionwhore, who just likes to "offend" people, when he does very little compared to other acts who don't get nearly as much media coverage.

When I saw him on 'Bowling for Columbine' I was pissed. I hate Michael Moore, and I hate Manson, and it was just a circle jerk.

[RHIZOMES]

Everything you mentioned sounds satirical and/or for shock value to me...

[ls]

Or we could be happy that there are still artists who say FUCK OFF to conformity.

And receive massive paychecks for shoving carrots up their arse. ;)

[Holden Caulfield]

didnt read it but Manson is not dumb, he is a very intelligent chap from what i have seen.

[Palmares]

I thought all of this would have been pretty obvious.

Manson is a pretty smart guy, especially evident in his articulate responses in the Bowling for Columbine interview with Michael Moore (as previously mentioned).

And... his name is fucking Marilyn Manson. He even voted for George W. Bush (or at least apparently so, amongst confusing statements he made that were related to such). Of course he is a fucking shock-jock.

[Vincent]

I think he's a pretty intelligent guy. The ideas behind the trilogy of Holy Wood, Mechanical Animals and Antichrist Superstar are deeper than most people give him credit for. I think that yes, he does like to shock people, but this sometimes gets in the way of his political and philosophical messages, and most importantly the level of social commentary that goes on in those albums. He does shock people, but then I think there's that group of 'intellectuals' who wouldn't care to examine his lyrics and imagery just because they think they are being 'smart' by not being shocked. I don't like to think of him as a 'shock rocker' first; he's an intelligent and highly political artist.

[Forward Union]

It's black metal. They use shocking phrases and symbols for the virtue of themselves. Don't worry too much,

[Palmares]

It's black metal. They use shocking phrases and symbols for the virtue of themselves. Don't worry too much,

Say what? Sounds like you have no fucking clue what black metal is.

Black metal from wikipedia:


Black metal is an extreme (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_metal) subgenre of heavy metal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music). It often employs fast tempos, shrieked vocals, highly distorted guitars played with tremolo picking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tremolo_picking), double-kick drumming, and unconventional song structure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_metal

Marilyn Manson:



Genre(s) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_genre)
Alternative metal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_metal)[/URL]
Industrial metal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marilyn_manson#cite_note-Allmusic-0)
Shock rock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marilyn_manson#cite_note-Allmusic-0) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marilyn_manson#cite_note-11)
Hard rock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marilyn_manson#cite_note-IGN-13) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marilyn_manson#cite_note-14) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marilyn_manson#cite_note-16)
Industrial rock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_rock) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marilyn_manson#cite_note-NME-18)
Glam rock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glam_rock)[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marilyn_manson#cite_note-MTV-19"] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marilyn_manson#cite_note-Rolling_Stone-5)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marilyn_manson

[Dimentio]

It's black metal. They use shocking phrases and symbols for the virtue of themselves. Don't worry too much,

No, Manson is not a BM artist. BM makes Manson look like Elvis. Besides, Manson actually has a message, while most BM artists just attempt get so many "impale", "Satan", "genocide", "goat", "dark", "evil", "vampiric", "demon" and "northern" as possible into their lyrics. Then, they become tr00. Most black metal fans hate Manson, on the merit that people actually were and are listening to his music. Tr00 Black Metal fans want to listen to the most obscure and crazy bands possible.


Burzum
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbLh8PbzQL4

Ancient
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHK4HpuK6Qo

Satanic Warmaster (sic)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIBTiCSAIXU

Children of Bodom (this song is an attempt by them to meddle in BM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ft5OeNaOgH0

Marduk tries to tell a story of what they consider a hero
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWZ5tM314S4

Parody
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCv9LXYGMA8

Almost like a parody
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-jkkwQmxJE&feature=related

This one is not a parody. It is epic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VT9f6nrbElQ&feature=PlayList&p=4E5AF344567AF15B&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=29

Some black metal bands are nazi, while some are serious. Most black metal supporters hate NSBM.

[Skin_HeadBanger]

It's black metal. They use shocking phrases and symbols for the virtue of themselves. Don't worry too much,

Look into thing before making statements next time. Thank you for your cooperation.

Also, look up National Socialist Black Metal and tell me that its all for the virtues of themselves.

[Plagueround]

I just wish his newest album wasn't so disappointing thus far.

[Das war einmal]

I just wish his newest album wasn't so disappointing thus far.

The high end of low? I only heard 'arma-goddamn-motherfucking-geddon' so far. He looks like the singer of Panic at the disco :lol: in that video, the song itself is rather good, not great. I hope the album is gonna be better than 'Eat me, drink me'

[Il Medico]

I don't think he is stupid, rather he probably just wants to shock. That is after all why he is as famous and rich as he is.

[Das war einmal]

I don't think he is stupid, rather he probably just wants to shock. That is after all why he is as famous and rich as he is.


Thanks, but I believe that was already concluded a couple of times

[Thunder]

Marilyn Manson is a member of the Church of Satan. To sum up what I know and think: the Church of Satan is extremely a social darwinist (they apply "survival of the fittest" to human society. The weak deserve to die, etc) group, which does not line up with our values at all.

[communard resolution]

I just wish his newest album wasn't so disappointing thus far.

I think he came up with a really good single. A little bit more dance-punk, a bit less industrial-metal. It's called We're From America.

The lyrics should help to clear up misconceptions about MM being a fascist or a right-winger:


We’re from America
We’re from America
Where we eat our young

We’re from America
We’re from America
It’s where Jesus was born

We’re from America
We’re from America
Where they let you come on their faces

We’re from America
We’re from America
We speak American

We don’t believe in credibility
Because we’re know that we’re fucking incredible

We don’t believe in credibility
Because we’re know that we’re fucking incredible

I want to be a martyr, don’t want to be a victim
Be a killer with a gun, so they call me a hero

I want to be a martyr, don’t want to be a victim
Be a killer with a gun, so they call me a hero

God is an excuse
God is an excuse
God is an excuse
God is an excuse
God is an excuse
God is an excuse
God is an excuse

So sing it with me

We’re from America
We’re from America
We’re from America


We don’t like to kill our unborn
We need them to grow up and fight our wars

We believe in everything we say
We say it because we believe it

Can you sing it with me?

We’re from America
We’re from America
We’re from America

We turn literature into litter

We’re from America
We’re from America

We believe in being a quitter

I’m in recovery
I’m in recovery
I’m in recovery

From America
From America
From America

So sing it with me!

We’re from America
We’re from America
We’re from America

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vzHMRxlJ_E


From a MM interview in Kerrang magazine:


I think a lot of people will hear the track and initially think it's just political, but it's not just that, it's also me describing a lot of fucked-up scenarios that I'm going through in my personal life. Someone asked me, 'Why are you so fucked up?', 'Well, I am from America.' I hate the fact that so many people have fucked the country up, and so many people fucked up my personal life and I allowed it to happen. So in a way, I feel like America as a whole feels, but in no way does that make me a tree-hugging patriotic freedom rocker.

[NoMore]

That is why he says says "capitalism has made it this way,old fashioned fascism will take it away".

I don't think that he is that much of an anti capitalist, because he was on Mtv which is the biggest capitalist music whores in the world, and most of what he believes in is mindless self indulgence which is totally against socialism.