Seamus Costello

[Andropov]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkkLbiuNljs

[Andropov]

What are peoples opinions on guerilla activity within the chambers of power?

[Dóchas]

im not sure but id say they would just be laughed at and portrayed by the media as fanatics or something to that effect. maybe if a group of people were elected they could shake things up a bit but i doubt they could really achieve anything

[Andropov]

im not sure but id say they would just be laughed at and portrayed by the media as fanatics or something to that effect. maybe if a group of people were elected they could shake things up a bit but i doubt they could really achieve anything

I disagree.
They show the limitations of constitutional politics to the masses.
It highlights its weakness's and exploits them.
Such actions of undermining will make people look else where beyond constitutional politics and hopefully into Revolutioanry politics.
An example of Costellos work doing this was when he rounded up every homeless person in Bray and marched them into the town council and demanded they be provided housing then and there.
There was pandamonium and understandably the town councillors attempted to remove him from his seat completely.
But he won the admiration of the people of Bray.
If anything it did the opposite to what you stated, it gained him credibility among the working class.

[PRC-UTE]

What are peoples opinions on guerilla activity within the chambers of power?

calling him an inspiration is to put it mild.

I can't tell you hwo many times ppl who knew him have approached me to relate stories of his activities.

there's a lot of good stuff on him here

http://www.irsm.org/irsp/costello/bio/

[Dóchas]

I disagree.
They show the limitations of constitutional politics to the masses.
It highlights its weakness's and exploits them.
Such actions of undermining will make people look else where beyond constitutional politics and hopefully into Revolutioanry politics.
An example of Costellos work doing this was when he rounded up every homeless person in Bray and marched them into the town council and demanded they be provided housing then and there.
There was pandamonium and understandably the town councillors attempted to remove him from his seat completely.
But he won the admiration of the people of Bray.
If anything it did the opposite to what you stated, it gained him credibility among the working class.

ye i think i have to learn more about him but he sounds like an amazing individual and a true hero of the working class

[pastradamus]

ye i think i have to learn more about him but he sounds like an amazing individual and a true hero of the working class

He was a pretty Interesting individual alright man. He must be spinning in his grave after finding out they let PRC-UTE and Red Revolution into his party! :laugh:lol!

[Dóchas]

He was a pretty Interesting individual alright man. He must be spinning in his grave after finding out they let PRC-UTE and Red Revolution into his party! :laugh:lol!

ha ha ye what has the world come to!! :rolleyes::lol:

[PRC-UTE]

He was a pretty Interesting individual alright man. He must be spinning in his grave after finding out they let PRC-UTE and Red Revolution into his party! :laugh:lol!

lol

I think Costello would love us. I am 47.5% sure he wouldn't even give us a beating :thumbup1:

[pastradamus]

lol

I think Costello would love us. I am 47.5% sure he wouldn't even give us a beating :thumbup1:

You've obviously never seen him after a few pints. Very angry man. lol. Ah no, great and very interesting individual really.

[Andropov]

You've obviously never seen him after a few pints. Very angry man. lol. Ah no, great and very interesting individual really.
I thought Costello wasnt fond of drinking?

[la lucha sigue]

i have to admit that although hearing costello's name and various people praising him, that i know little about him. the clip linked above and the bray story certainly points to an inspirational figure.

i see nothing wrong with bringing guerilla tactics to the chambers of power, but i was thinking more of the not so recent mortar attack on downing street :laugh: i can see how an elected representative can use his position to undermine the system, but where is the line in the sand, before you are actually taking part in the very system that you are fighting.

Traditional irish republican abstentionism provides a safety net against falling into the reformist trap. Its all well and good saying that republicans such as costello showed us that it can be done, but political structures are bigger than individuals and have a habit of bending them to their will. Perhaps abstentionism is there to protect its advocates who may not be as strong as costello, but we do not live in an ireland of costellos and dipping your feet in participation with a regime that you seek to overthrow is a dangerous game.

History has taught us that participation and reform has failed republicanism, history did not have enough costellos, but can we count on more to come? Until we have an ireland of costellos, guerilla tactics should be left where they cannot be corrupted by power and reform.

[PRC-UTE]

i have to admit that although hearing costello's name and various people praising him, that i know little about him. the clip linked above and the bray story certainly points to an inspirational figure.

i see nothing wrong with bringing guerilla tactics to the chambers of power, but i was thinking more of the not so recent mortar attack on downing street :laugh: i can see how an elected representative can use his position to undermine the system, but where is the line in the sand, before you are actually taking part in the very system that you are fighting.

Traditional irish republican abstentionism provides a safety net against falling into the reformist trap. Its all well and good saying that republicans such as costello showed us that it can be done, but political structures are bigger than individuals and have a habit of bending them to their will. Perhaps abstentionism is there to protect its advocates who may not be as strong as costello, but we do not live in an ireland of costellos and dipping your feet in participation with a regime that you seek to overthrow is a dangerous game.

History has taught us that participation and reform has failed republicanism, history did not have enough costellos, but can we count on more to come? Until we have an ireland of costellos, guerilla tactics should be left where they cannot be corrupted by power and reform.

Costello isn't the only example. There's also McAliskey who followed a very similar praxis to Costello. The Bolsheviks didn't cease being revolutionary by taking seats in the Duma. or even Joe Higgins- I don't see Higgins becoming bourgeois. I think if elected republicans should take their seats as an opposition.

the problem with your argument about abstentionism is that abstentionist republicans only refuse to take their seats in the dáil/westminster, not in other local bourgeois government bodies. therefore in reality they're also susceptible to being sucked into the state, according to this argument.

the reasons various parties became part of the state throughout history has more to do with social factors at the time than just the old power corrupts line anyway. though I'd agree republicanism has had its share of corrupt leaders. overall I think it has a lot more to do with what's going on outside the elected chambers and which class republicans depend on for support, and whether or not they mobilise their fellow workers

I think we should reject any dogma on this issue. whether or not socialists abstain or take their seats should be decided by weighing the balance of forces and what is happening in the struggle. in different contexts it could be either a step backwards or forwards.

[brigadista]

bernadette mc aliskey [devlin] was fantastic - she crossed the floor in the house of commons punched reginald maudling in the eye and threw the mace on the floor in repsonse to maudlings defence of the Brit army actions on bloody sunday-she was repeatedly prevented from speaking although an elected member- that alone makes her admirable - she was 21- i understand she still works in her community and is and always has been a great orator -

[Andy Bowden]

Abstentionism didn't stop Sinn Fein from becoming coopted, and taking her seat in Westminster didn't make Bernadette Devlin Mcaliskey coopted either.

Whats needed is democratic accountability, and honesty about what your political strategy is and can do.

Sinn Fein kept up a fantasy that a small armed group alone could unite Ireland - when in reality the aim was to force Brits to negotiating table.

[Andropov]

bernadette mc aliskey [devlin] was fantastic - she crossed the floor in the house of commons punched reginald maudling in the eye and threw the mace on the floor in repsonse to maudlings defence of the Brit army actions on bloody sunday-she was repeatedly prevented from speaking although an elected member- that alone makes her admirable - she was 21- i understand she still works in her community and is and always has been a great orator -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gXOsHXMgfY

"Im just sorry I didnt get him by throat".
Bernadettes response to punching the home secretary in Westminister.
Legend. :D

[brigadista]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBBWMBO4ddE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBBWMBO4ddE&feature=related
bernadette then

and in 2007
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmKeYDsDimI&feature=related

[la lucha sigue]

that shut the journalists up! Classic!!


always good to get rid of the dogma and figure out what's best for the revolution in the here and now.

weighing the balance of the forces at the minute, would you say that bringing the guerilla tactic to the chambers of stormont would be a move forward or backwards? A la michael stone? :laugh: personally i can't ever see how it would be anythinng but a backwards move.

traditional westminster/leinster house abstentionists do take part in local bourgeois state elections. is that not proof that they too are weighing the balance, and have found that on a local level at least, that costello's argument could be made to work. ROB's position in 79 towards europe was to enter the chamber if elected and read a statement out and then leave (perhaps not as imaginative as rounding up all the homeless in strasbourg and bringing them into the chamber), but still shows a flexible rather than a dogmatic approach.

the problem with leinster house/stormont/westminster is that they undermine national sovereignty. participating in any of those bodies gives legitimacy to partition, although grabbing people by the throat could hardly be called legitimising anything!!! joe higgins did a lot of good work in leinster house, and hopefully will again, but what did he do to undermine partition?

probably not much chance of a republican getting elected to leinster house (abstentionist or otherwise) in any event, but i'd still give the irps my vote if they were the only republican candidate, if only to give someone the chance to see if costello and mcalisky could be repeated! I guess you have won me over (or rather that clip of bernadette has won me over) to the idea that on a carefully limited basis that this tactic should be within the arsenal of republicanism.

All this talk of electoral politics is distracting though, you've rightly said that its what happens on the outside that matters. we should be building alternative structures to replace leinster house, stormont and the rest of the bourgeois state.

[Andropov]

All this talk of electoral politics is distracting though, you've rightly said that its what happens on the outside that matters. we should be building alternative structures to replace leinster house, stormont and the rest of the bourgeois state.
Indeed, electoralism should be just used to undermine Constitutional Politics.
You are discrediting them on their own territory.

[la lucha sigue]

really, that clip has made my day, i'm still chuckling to myself, please ensure that as many people see it as possible :laugh:

[Black Dagger]

Moved to politics.