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View Full Version : Social Democracy is an ethical paradox



RGacky3
17th April 2009, 12:32
For the Social Democrats, who actually believe in it.

Social Democracy is supposed to be a cross roads between socialism and Capitalism, supposedly taking the best of both worlds and blending it into a sort of Socialized Capitalism. Heres the problem:

Capitalism is based on the idea of private property, which means ownership of Capital and resources, which means that whatever is produced with the Capital and resources that the Capitalist owns is essencially his, he has the rights to it. THAT is the concept of Private Property. Also its based on the Market, which goes along with private property, production is based on what money can buy, essencially, and what you own can be traded at will with whatever you can get for it. Along with that comes the Capitalist hiarchy, which means the Capitalist, the boss who has Capital and resources may hire people without Capital and resources for a price and use their labor in order to make a profit, and that those workers, are selling their labor as if it were a resource.

Socialism is based on the opposite, that Private property is not valid, and that the things that come with it, the Capitalist hiarchy, the Capitalist market (which is not the only type of market btw) are not valid either.

Social Democracy accepts Capitalism and all that comes with it, but then tries to throw in the concept of the commons and the State, heavy progressive taxation, essencially the rich supporting the poor througH the State.

So what your doing essencially is (if you accept private property) stealing from people who deserve what they have, from what they have earned, and giving it to people who don't deserve it.

And what your doing (if you don't accept privat property) is keeping in an unjust tyrannical system, protecting people who have tyrannical and unjust power so they can exploit those who don't for profit, while just trying to minimize the damage to those without the power.

Its like Robin hood, but Robin Hood is the king, and he still does things relatively the same way.

trivas7
17th April 2009, 15:30
Socialism is based on the opposite, that Private property is not valid, and that the things that come with it, the Capitalist hiarchy, the Capitalist market (which is not the only type of market btw) are not valid either.

This misconstrues the meaning of socialism and its relation to capitalism.

graffic
17th April 2009, 16:14
You have hit the nail on the head RGacky, I think many socialists realise if they really want to make a difference and get elected they need to drop some of their more radical ideas and assimilate, to a degree, with the wealthy elite. An example would be Tony Blair in 1997 who claimed to be a socialist but to get into power he had to march around saying he would be "tough" on crime, continue many free-market policys and suck up to right-wing press barons like Rupert Murdoch.

TheDifferenceEngine
17th April 2009, 17:54
Social Democracy is like giving a man anasthetic while you cut out his heart.

funkmasterswede
17th April 2009, 22:22
Social democracy is a myth in practise, the real idea behind most of the social democratic measures that are seen is just some form of liberal egalitarianism. I can't think of one social democracy or social democrat for that matter who is interested in appropriative justice. They are only interested in distributive justice, and forming a liberal entitlement society.

WhitemageofDOOM
19th April 2009, 09:30
So what your doing essencially is (if you accept private property) stealing from people who deserve what they have, from what they have earned, and giving it to people who don't deserve it.

As an ex-social democrat(You guys converted me to a socialist.) i disagreed vehemently with this view point.

That assumes that even though private property is valid the rich have what they deserve, and that we don't owe society anything for the benefits it provides us. Both of which i DID NOT agree with.

Some also view private property as non-valid but think it would be impossible to make socialism work, so they go with what they view as a pragmatic alternative.

Pogue
19th April 2009, 09:33
I don't think you can attack social democracy philosophically/politically. You'd have to look at it historically and examine the attitudes of social democrats, who historically and in the present day are people who dislike capitalism but believe it can be reformed and constrained to make it nicer, and also believe a revolution is impossible or undesirable. Its nowhere sufficient towards tackling the worlds problems and if it ever become effective it soon degenrates and is corrupted (Labour aprty in the UK for example). I think thats why we should reject it not due to some absurd 'logical paradox' which would somehow magically make it an irrelevant force.

RGacky3
19th April 2009, 09:58
That assumes that even though private property is valid the rich have what they deserve, and that we don't owe society anything for the benefits it provides us. Both of which i DID NOT agree with.

Some also view private property as non-valid but think it would be impossible to make socialism work, so they go with what they view as a pragmatic alternative.

I see, but your still defending an unjust system, in the sense that the power structure has'nt really changed at all.


I think thats why we should reject it not due to some absurd 'logical paradox' which would somehow magically make it an irrelevant force.

I'm not saying its irrelevant, I'm saying it does'nt make sense to be one. Historically there are many different reasons it came about.


This misconstrues the meaning of socialism and its relation to capitalism.

No it does'nt, and I think I can speak on behalf of socialists here to say, you don't have much say in what the meaning of socialism is, I'd say socialists have more of that. The whole basis of SOcialism from the begining was an attack on private property and the hiarchies that came with it.