Communist Poland

[RedArmyUK]

I,d like some info on Communist Polska,, the thing is My Polish woman kinda don,t know much about how everyday people lived as her dad was a Communist MP so she kinda had a good life, and kinda tells me things like shes got rose tinned sunglasses on,,, things i,d like to know...

1. Why do a lot of Poles hate the Russians more then the Germans seeing as it was the Germans who wrecked the place and the Russians who re-built it (This gets me really pissed off in Poland when talking to other people, words can get a bit heated after a few Vodkas)

2. Why are 99% of Poles Racist even Ex Commies (this also fucks me off about Poles even if they are commies)

3. Does anyone know where I can find photos of Warsaw online,, dates 1950 to 1990

4. How everyday people lived, e.g did they really have to Q hours just to get food?

[khad]

You need to ask another question.

Why do Polish nationalists pretend like they are victims when they did all sorts of dastardly crap like murder 80,000 Soviet POWs and help the Nazis partition Czechoslovakia?

[Dust Bunnies]

I,d like some info on Communist Polska,, the thing is My Polish woman kinda don,t know much about how everyday people lived as her dad was a Communist MP so she kinda had a good life, and kinda tells me things like shes got rose tinned sunglasses on,,, things i,d like to know...

1. Why do a lot of Poles hate the Russians more then the Germans seeing as it was the Germans who wrecked the place and the Russians who re-built it (This gets me really pissed off in Poland when talking to other people, words can get a bit heated after a few Vodkas)

2. Why are 99% of Poles Racist even Ex Commies (this also fucks me off about Poles even if they are commies)

3. Does anyone know where I can find photos of Warsaw online,, dates 1950 to 1990

4. How everyday people lived, e.g did they really have to Q hours just to get food?


I know some Polish nuns so I may be able to answer this.

1. Probably because most living people can't remember Germany? In many former Soviet bloc countries Fascists are being regarded well.

2. These are nuns so they are conservative, I guess because racism spreads where ever there is people?

3. Don't know.

4. Not sure about that, but a nun did say that economics was better under Soviet times but there was not alot of rights. This other nun's friend died when she was a teen (he was a teen too) and they couldn't go to his funeral due to the fear of people gathering.

[RedArmyUK]

You need to ask another question.

Why do Polish nationalists pretend like they are victims when they did all sorts of dastardly crap like murder 80,000 Soviet POWs and help the Nazis partition Czechoslovakia?

I do know they like to bend the truth about their past

[Dust Bunnies]

Being a person of Polish decent and knowing many Poles, they are horribly proud of their heritage and Poland. Despite Poland being defeated nearly all the time, being occupied around the time of WW1 they still think Poland is some glorious country. It is inherited nationalism, a Polish parent has a baby, bring the child up loving Polish traditions. I think it may go back to when the Poles fought off many invaders during the Middle Ages.

[rednordman]

1. Probably because most living people can't remember Germany? In many former Soviet bloc countries Fascists are being regarded well.Its a bizarre thing this, and I sometimes forget that about the Eastern European countries.

But I might also add that it will not be long before alot of them (the next generation mainly) forget about the soviet times also.

This is what knarks me a bit. I sense that they are getting allowed to revise the history of the Nazis and fascism in general, yet if the same was to be done about the Soviet Union, there would be a massive uproar.

What a difference 50 or so years can make. The awful rise of misguided nationalism!

The thing that does baffle me though is where on earth all this racism has come from? Because from what i have heard, its almost like 'in fashion' there. There was even talk of them getting stripped of the right to host the next football european championships because of it being so bad there. Oddly enough though, its just this week been anounced that they now have to share it with the Ukraine (I do not think that that was racism related though).

[Sam_b]

2. Why are 99% of Poles Racist even Ex Commies (this also fucks me off about Poles even if they are commies)

That is a ridiculous, untrue and offensive generalisation.

[OneNamedNameLess]

Polish Soviet!

I know a few people who visited Poland in the 1970's and 1980's. One was a Christian who smuggled Bibles into the country so her perception is obviously not valid. Overall though, I have heard it wasn't too healthy. However, even now Poland continues to suffer. I also hear it's very right wing at the minute, police brutality is high and unchallenged, and equal rights are disrespected eg homosexuals don't have it easy.

[Dust Bunnies]

Polish Soviet!

I know a few people who visited Poland in the 1970's and 1980's. One was a Christian who smuggled Bibles into the country so her perception is obviously not valid. Overall though, I have heard it wasn't too healthy. However, even now Poland continues to suffer. I also hear it's very right wing at the minute, police brutality is high and unchallenged, and equal rights are disrespected eg homosexuals don't have it easy.

It wasn't that better under Soviet rule from what I heard civil rights wise.

[Jack]

That is a ridiculous, untrue and offensive generalisation.

Sadly not too ridiculous. Many Eastern Bloc countries are now havens of racism. A poll done a couple years ago indicates that 93% of Czech people think Roma (gypsies) are pre-disposed to crime.

[OneNamedNameLess]

Sadly not too ridiculous. Many Eastern Bloc countries are now havens of racism. A poll done a couple years ago indicates that 93% of Czech people think Roma (gypsies) are pre-disposed to crime.

This isn't just a problem there. All over Europe gypsies are perceived in such a way. Italy is just terrible for it. I also recall a statement from a Romanian MP in which he basically said they (gypsies) would sell their own family to make a few quid :crying:

[Os Cangaceiros]

1. Why do a lot of Poles hate the Russians more then the Germans seeing as it was the Germans who wrecked the place and the Russians who re-built it (This gets me really pissed off in Poland when talking to other people, words can get a bit heated after a few Vodkas)

Re-built it into what, exactly? A wretched Stalinist dictatorship under the anti-Semite Gomulka?

[RedArmyUK]

That is a ridiculous, untrue and offensive generalisation.

When was the last time you was in Polska???????

[RedArmyUK]

Polish Soviet!

I know a few people who visited Poland in the 1970's and 1980's. One was a Christian who smuggled Bibles into the country so her perception is obviously not valid. Overall though, I have heard it wasn't too healthy. However, even now Poland continues to suffer. I also hear it's very right wing at the minute, police brutality is high and unchallenged, and equal rights are disrespected eg homosexuals don't have it easy.

Its VERY right wing, (try going to a football match)

[DancingLarry]

The problematic thing in Polish history is this: when just about every other people that come along constitute a threat to you, then xenophobia becomes an almost reasonable response. Particularly dramatic in this experience were the "Partitions of Poland" back n the late 18th century, when all of Poland's neighbors, Prussia, Russia and Austria-Hungary, combined to carve Poland up and out of existence. A big part of the reason was that Poland was at the time being highly influenced by the rhetoric coming out of revolutionary France and the early USA, which was a threat to the feudal and despotic regimes of the Partitioning Powers. The worst part is that after a last flicker of hope associated with Napoleon, modernity in the 19th century seemed to threaten the permanent extinguishing of Poland. In that void, the Catholic Church, in one of its most authoritarian, backwards branches, took over as the keeper of the Polish national identity. In a land that was at the time probably about 15% Jewish, this set the stage for long-term attitudes of bigotry to fuse with that national identity, despite the massive contribution of Polish Jews to the national culture.

For the history of "Peoples Poland" from the end of WWII up through the early 80s, with a definite emphasis on the 1980-81 Solidarnosc period, I cannot recommend highly enough Stanislaw Starski's Class Struggle in Classless Poland, an absolutely superb work more or less composed as the 1980-81 events unfolded.

[communard resolution]

police brutality is high and unchallenged, and equal rights are disrespected eg homosexuals don't have it easy.

In other words, the switch to free market capitalism didn't change Poland much on the social scale.

[communard resolution]

Polish Soviet!

I know a few people who visited Poland in the 1970's and 1980's. One was a Christian who smuggled Bibles into the country so her perception is obviously not valid.

That's bizarre! Everybody had a Bible in Poland - no need to smuggle any.

The Communist party never touched the Catholic Church in Poland. Given its central role in Polish culture, they knew well that the Catholic Church was the one thing they had to categorically stay away from. As a result, the church provided a haven of sorts for the Polish people - and maybe that wasn't a bad thing after all as far as the PZPR was concerned.

Have you read Animal Farm? When the pig called Napoleon takes over, Moses the raven returns to Manor Farm and starts telling the other animals about a mystical land called "Sugarcandy Mountain" where all animals shall go after a life of hardship - just as he had done before the revolution. Even though Napoleon and his cohorts refer to Moses's tales as "lies", they nevertheless allow him to stay and spread the gospel without ever asking him to work like all the other animals. --> That's how it was in Poland

[revolution inaction]

You need to ask another question.

Why do Polish nationalists pretend like they are victims when they did all sorts of dastardly crap like murder 80,000 Soviet POWs and help the Nazis partition Czechoslovakia?

All nationalists do this, at least all the ones i have come across do, I think its because being the victim inspires anger which if directed properly can be used to the benefit of the local bourgeoisie. If some one believes them self to be victimised for being a particular nationality it can be a vary powerful tool to promote unity with every one else who claims that nationality.

[Brother No. 1]

I,d like some info on Communist Polska,,






I prefer calling it by its origanal name. Polska Rzeczposplita Ludowa


2. Why are 99% of Poles Racist even Ex Commies (this also fucks me off about Poles even if they are commies)

99%? I dont think 99% of the whole country would be racist but I know some of the country would be racist.


1. Why do a lot of Poles hate the Russians more then the Germans seeing as it was the Germans who wrecked the place and the Russians who re-built it (This gets me really pissed off in Poland when talking to other people, words can get a bit heated after a few Vodkas)

You forget that The Russian Empire and the Polish Kingdom were not on the best of terms. Plus a few other problems before WW2 and before even World War 1.





The Communist party never touched the Catholic Church in Poland. Given its central role in Polish culture, they knew well that the Catholic Church was the one thing they had to categorically stay away from. As a result, the church provided a haven of sorts for the Polish people - and maybe that wasn't a bad thing after all as far as the PZPR was concerned.


They never did for the Polish People are very Religious and celibrate every Religious holiday in Christainity. If they were to get rid of the Chruch then the people would likely protest such action.





Being a person of Polish decent and knowing many Poles, they are horribly proud of their heritage and Poland.

This is true for look at their anthem "Marsz, marsz, Dąbrowski" its very Nationalistic. But everywhere in the world their proud of their heritage I mean look at the "Americans" their too proud of them selfs. Nationalism is in alot of places comrade so this doesnt suprise me one bit.

[communard resolution]

They never did for the Polish People are very Religious and celibrate every Religious holiday in Christainity. If they were to get rid of the Chruch then the people would likely protest such action.

Exactly. And the church continued to be the opium of the masses as it had always been. And the regime was probably better off that way - otherwise, the people may have organised a socialist revolution after all.

[Brother No. 1]

Exactly. And the church continued to be the opium of the masses as it had always been.

It was more like the Peoples tool to find false hope. "Religion is a beast of opression"-Karl Marx
The Religion in Poland,Christainity, was of course implanted on them be the "Holy leader" of the Religious grip there.





And the regime was probably better off that way - otherwise, the people may have organised a socialist revolution after all.

Somehow I knew this Stalinist joke was coming...besides hw could they even form a Socialist Revolution when they only wanted their petty Religion back?

[Sam_b]

Sadly not too ridiculous. Many Eastern Bloc countries are now havens of racism. A poll done a couple years ago indicates that 93% of Czech people think Roma (gypsies) are pre-disposed to crime.

When was the last time you was in Polska???????

Jack: I think its pretty ridiculous and at this moment in time I am living in the Czech Republic. You can't just find out racism by polls and surveys (though I do agree it plays a big part), I know that the Roma population of the country, especially Prague and Brno, are blamed for a lot of the city's problems.

And RedArmyUK, I plan to be in Poland at some point next month so i'll let you know what I see. I still persist that its grossly inaccurate to blanketly label the majority of people as racist: these sort of generalisations are not helpful in the slightest.

[Brother No. 1]

And RedArmyUK, I plan to be in Poland at some point next month so i'll let you know what I see. I still persist that its grossly inaccurate to blanketly label the majority of people as racist: these sort of generalisations are not helpful in the slightest.

When your at Poland tell me what its like. But I am very sure,much like your self, that "99%" of Poland is not racist. I believe its lower then 50% really.

[communard resolution]

It was more like the Peoples tool to find false hope. "Religion is a beast of opression"-Karl Marx

Agree 100%.


The Religion in Poland,Christainity, was of course implanted on them be the "Holy leader" of the Religious grip there.And tolerated by the regime for good reason.


Somehow I knew this Stalinist joke was coming..Not a joke.


besides hw could they even form a Socialist Revolution when they only wanted their petty Religion back?Well, exactly! Nevertheless, there was socialist resistance in the PZPR, esp in the late 60s. The government got rid of those people using anti-semitic rhetoric, opportunistically appealing to the people's traditional Catholic prejudices against Jews.

[Brother No. 1]

Well, exactly! Nevertheless, there was socialist resistance in the PZPR, esp in the late 60s. The government got rid of those people using anti-semitic rhetoric, opportunistically appealing to the people's traditional Catholic prejudices against Jews.

I'd say the Revisionist goverment just wanted to stay in power. After that 1950s alot of Eastern bloc Socialist states followed the CCCP in Revisionism.

[RedArmyUK]

When your at Poland tell me what its like. But I am very sure,much like your self, that "99%" of Poland is not racist. I believe its lower then 50% really.

Ok I may have gone a bit OTT with the 99%,, But I do know its a hell of a lot also its the only place i,ve been were they left leaflets on the Aircraft seat on a flight back to UK telling Poles that UK had Blacks and Asians and that we had tough Laws on racism.

(This was when they first joined EU)

[Sam_b]

Its not like black or Asian people live in Poland is it..:rolleyes:

To be frank i'm not sure I believe you. Got a source for your claims?

[rednordman]

I'm surprised that they are that bad that they have to put leaflets on the plane seats. I mean wtf? All I have seen is stuff from football matches in poland, where fans have all grouped together to form a swastika on one of the stands. There was also footage of stange chanting. It was insane and totally appauling in all honesty.

The reason I put it like that, is because it was actually inhuman. They where behaving like animals. This feels weird to say as it is the same sort of thing that they would say about us and most people that they disapprove of. Mabey they should look at themselves first.

The thing is though, I could not honestly believe that the whole nation has the same mentality. Because if they did, than Poland has big big problems.+ where I work the polish there all get on very well with the muslims, and havent shown any signs of racism at all. All friendly for the most part.

Mabey this then has something to do with why alot of them want to leave? (other than the awfull work situation obviously)

[communard resolution]

Mabey this then has something to do with why alot of them want to leave? (other than the awfull work situation obviously)

Poland is a very ethnically homogenous country - the majority are white, Polish, and Catholic. Most Polish racists haven't actually had much contact with people of other ethnicities, if at all. They more or less imagine them.

When they come to live in more multi-cultural countries such as the UK and get to know non-whites at work, their prejudices usually vanish very quickly.

[communard resolution]

I'd say the Revisionist goverment just wanted to stay in power. After that 1950s alot of Eastern bloc Socialist states followed the CCCP in Revisionism.

Anti-semitist rhetoric and the 'struggle' against 'rootless cosmopolitans' and alleged Zionists were not a Revisionist invention, though.

[RedArmyUK]

Its not like black or Asian people live in Poland is it..:rolleyes:

To be frank i'm not sure I believe you. Got a source for your claims?


You don,t believe a lot of wot people say on here from wot I can see,,
Anyhow,, i,m sure I,m going to keep a leaflet from 5 years ago! :blink:

[Sam_b]

Not without a source, no.

As stupid as airlines are, I doubt they're going to leave a leaflet like you describe, seeing as those exaclt people live in their own country as well.

[Hoxhaist]

Poland changed drastically when martial law was declared in 1980. Many rights were restricted such as large assemblies but until then it was relatively free and unrestricted in terms of rights except counter-revolutionary activites

[Jack]

except counter-revolutionary activites

Which is a nice term for dissent.

[Hoxhaist]

Which is a nice term for dissent.
Why should the regime tolerate the active assembling of people dedicated to undermining and destroying the society?

[communard resolution]

Many rights were restricted such as large assemblies but until then it was relatively free and unrestricted in terms of rights except counter-revolutionary activites

1956: Strike and demonstration in Poznan. The police open fire and kill 80 workers (including a 13 year old boy).

1968: Leftist Students demonstrate/strike in Warsaw against the banning of an allegedly "anti-Soviet" theatre play (written by Mickiewicz in 1824). The goverment decides to blame it on "Zionists" and responds with a large scale anti-semitic campaign. As a result, 20,000 Jews lose their jobs and are forced to emigrate.

1970: Workers demonstrate against sudden prize rises of daily goods. The police open fire. 42 workers are killed and more than 1,000 wounded. The rest are sent back to work with guns in their backs.

PZPR = filthy parasites, anti-semites, gangsters, butchers of the working class

[RedArmyUK]

Not without a source, no.

As stupid as airlines are, I doubt they're going to leave a leaflet like you describe, seeing as those exaclt people live in their own country as well.

"To be frank" I don,t give a fuck wot a annoying Liberal like you thinks.

Now, Please don,t ever talk to me again :cursing:

(I just don,t get some People, they what to know the in,s and out,s of a ducks arse!!,)

[communard resolution]

Why should the regime tolerate the active assembling of people dedicated to undermining and destroying the society?

Why do we get so excited over police brutality at G20 protests then? What is one casualty compared the hundreds of workers killed and wounded at protests in Poland?

Apparently, it's ok for police and military to fire into crowds of unarmed striking workers as long as it's in the name of "socialism".

[Sam_b]

"To be frank" I don,t give a fuck wot a annoying Liberal like you thinks.

Now, Please don,t ever talk to me again

Poor, poor example of an argument this.

Go on, I fancy a laugh tonight. How exactly am I a liberal, and why exactly should I take your word for it?

[Wanted Man]

Sadly not too ridiculous. Many Eastern Bloc countries are now havens of racism. A poll done a couple years ago indicates that 93% of Czech people think Roma (gypsies) are pre-disposed to crime.
A Slovakian exchange student once told me the exact same thing, that it's in their genes. Is this taught at school?

[Jack]

A Slovakian exchange student once told me the exact same thing, that it's in their genes. Is this taught at school?


http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/04/14/eu.slovakia.roma/

"That image of thievery and lawlessness has partly contributed to the isolation of the Roma within Slovakia. Roma children attend segregated schools, including schools for the mentally disadvantaged."

"The government says high unemployment among the Roma is because they are not skilled and have little education. While Slovakia's unemployment rate is below the EU average, among the Roma it is higher than 80 percent."

[Hoxhaist]

Why do we get so excited over police brutality at G20 protests then? What is one casualty compared the hundreds of workers killed and wounded at protests in Poland?

Apparently, it's ok for police and military to fire into crowds of unarmed striking workers as long as it's in the name of "socialism".
the police must act to prevent counter-revolution and the setbacks in progress that come with reaction and revision. I'm only saying Poland was in a difficult situation being constantly undermined by the Pope and the Soviet social-imperialism that in effect their leadership snapped

[DancingLarry]

Why should the regime tolerate the active assembling of people dedicated to undermining and destroying the society?

You mean like the working class? You need to understand there were a series of working class uprisings against "People's Poland", earlier in 1956, but then with ever greater regularity and class-conscious solidarity, 1970, 1976, and finally 1980-81.

[RedArmyUK]

Poor, poor example of an argument this.

Go on, I fancy a laugh tonight. How exactly am I a liberal, and why exactly should I take your word for it?

Hang on who said I wanted an argument?,, I said wot I see on the plane, you don,t believe, I can,t prove as I didn,t pick leaflet up for keeps so I can,t really do much more, any ideas??

[communard resolution]

the police must act to prevent counter-revolution and the setbacks in progress that come with reaction and revision. I'm only saying Poland was in a difficult situation being constantly undermined by the Pope and the Soviet social-imperialism that in effect their leadership snapped

Blame the Pope all you want, there is no excuse for firing into crowds of unarmed strikers. If your revolution entails killing workers and exiling Jews, we don't want it and suggest you shove it elsewhere.

[Sam_b]

Hang on who said I wanted an argument?

I would have assumed so, seeing this is a message board for political debate, discussion and argument. I thought that was the point?

So i'm still terrible interested on what grounds you think I am a liberal.

[communard resolution]

.besides hw could they even form a Socialist Revolution when they only wanted their petty Religion back?

Polish Soviet, I though I'd add as an interesting sidenote that the political perspectives of the anti-regime resistance in Poland changed over time.

The students who demonstrated against the banning of a theatre piece in 1968 were Marxists. Although they demanded and end to artistic and academic censorship as well as and end to police repression, they made clear in their demands that "on the ground of socialism, we defend social control over economic decisions".

During the worker protests in 1970 (42 workers shot dead by police and military), many workers carried red banners and sang the Internationale.

The same can be said about Poznan 1956 (80 workers killed by police) and Gdansk/Gdynia 1976 (against drastic prize rises for essential food items), where demands were essentially - and openly - socialist.

Of course, the experience of brutal repression was enough to show up the true nature of the PZPR and kill off whatever hopes some may have harboured to reform the system towards true socialism and workers control.

After 1976, the anti-regime resistance took a turn to the right. Although there was still a relatively strong left wing in the early Solidarnosc, disillusioned workers increasingly turned to the Pope and the capitalist West.

One of the reasons why the leftist resistance failed in the 50s, 60s and 70s was the lack of class solidarity. When Warsaw students appealed to workers to join them in 1968, workers failed to recognise the concerns of the leftist 'intelligentsia' as their own and remained passive. In fact, the PZPR managed to convince many workers that the students were 'Zionists' when handing out anti-semitic leaflets (as I mentioned in an earlier post, the regime knew how to play on traditional Catholic prejudice).

Likewise, the leftist 'intelligentsia' remained passive when workers staged their own protests in 1970 and 1976. It's ironic in more ways than one that class antagonisms prevented a united socialist resistance in an allegedly 'classless' society.

[RedArmyUK]

I would have assumed so, seeing this is a message board for political debate, discussion and argument. I thought that was the point?

So i'm still terrible interested on what grounds you think I am a liberal.

No, I come here to learn.

[STJ]

Communist Poland never existed.

[communard resolution]

Communist Poland never existed.

Neither did socialist Poland, to be quite honest. To some people, some abstract notion of social ownership of the means of production passes for socialism, i.e. as long there's a bunch of guys in funny uniforms planning the economy, everything else takes the back seat.

To me, true socialism means workers control. No workers control, no socialism.

[STJ]

Exactly comrade.