How do You Know you choose to do something?

[DesertShark]

For those of you who believe in "free will," or anyone else who wants to address the question: How do You Know that "you choose" to do something? Or how do You Know your actions are "your choice?"

Discuss away.

[Pawn Power]

I think you need to clarify the question. Who else choice would be making these choices?

[DesertShark]

I think you need to clarify the question. Who else choice would be making these choices?
By making the clarification you ask for, I would have to imply that "free will" exists or that choices exist and I am not going to make either claim. Think of the question as a personal one: how do you personally, know you are making a choice? How would you describe what a choice is to something/someone who doesn't know?

[Rjevan]

Think of the question as a personal one: how do you personally, know you are making a choice? How would you describe what a choice is to something/someone who doesn't know?
Well, simply that you have been confronted with a situation, which offered two different ways to go on and you decided for one way, after weighing the pros and cons of each way or just acting spontaneously, but you rejected one option in favour of the other one.

Who should make my decisions for me? Even if I act after my drives or because my conscience told me so, it's still a part of me which makes me decide the way I do.

[Idealism]

For those of you who believe in "free will," or anyone else who wants to address the question: How do You Know that "you choose" to do something? Or how do You Know your actions are "your choice?"

Discuss away.

you dont?

[MilitantAnarchist]

Good question... how do we know if it is OUR choice, or if we have been 'gently coerced' to feel a certain way... Or even brainwashed into feeling certain ways...
Infact its a fucking excellent question!!
It is like Naomi Kleins book The Shock Doctrine... she talks about disater capitalism and shock tactics... The State uses shock tactics or terror suspects to get them to admit to things, possibly things they didnt do, and what happens in the world eg 9/11 and tsunami's ext, shocks people, and it sort of subconciously distracts the mind and you accept things that you wouldnt normal accept (eg invasion of Iraq)...
That is large scale, but in our every day lives things could be doing the same... Things might of happened for a reason to get us to do somthing we wouldnt of done if that 'thing' had'nt of happened.... If you understand me,
Thats how i percieved the question anyway

[Decolonize The Left]

The question of "choice" relies upon several assumptions regarding the human condition:
1) There is a subject - a 'chooser.'
2) There are finite options - 'choices.'
3) There is an ability to choose among these options - 'will.'

Given that the human brain quantifies and qualifies it's situation within the material world, the second assumption (choices) is created through reductive rationality. The first assumption (chooser) is also created through language and the use of the subject-verb structure. The third assumption (will) is perhaps the toughest to explain... more later?

- August

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

DS:


For those of you who believe in "free will," or anyone else who wants to address the question: How do You Know that "you choose" to do something? Or how do You Know your actions are "your choice?"

Because I understand the English language.

[Except, outside of very odd circumstances, I would not use the word 'know' here.]

[Rebel_Serigan]

I find that we always choose, however what dictates that choice is in itself a bit of a grey area. We choose based on past experiance and state at that time. One might be swayed to normaly stop and give insurance after a car crash, but because this person is having a bad day and is late they might speed off. It is indeed illegal but the person choses to speed off because of his/her state of mind. We do choose but our choices can be predisposed by not only ourselves but also from outside sources. The goverment destroying the Twin Towers because of the want to go fight is very similer. It made people angry at the Mid East so people allowed and were all for the invasion of a country that had nothing to do with the attack. Choices are logical, but the state of mind is not. Yes we choose but our choices can be manipulated.

[DesertShark]

Well, simply that you have been confronted with a situation, which offered two different ways to go on and you decided for one way, after weighing the pros and cons of each way or just acting spontaneously, but you rejected one option in favour of the other one.

Who should make my decisions for me? Even if I act after my drives or because my conscience told me so, it's still a part of me which makes me decide the way I do.
How do you know you made a decision?

I'm not saying that someone/something else is making the choice or decision for you, or that there actually are choices to be made. I'm just wondering how people know they are actually making "a choice."

[DesertShark]

you dont?
I don't know, do you?

[DesertShark]

Good question... how do we know if it is OUR choice, or if we have been 'gently coerced' to feel a certain way... Or even brainwashed into feeling certain ways...
Infact its a fucking excellent question!!
It is like Naomi Kleins book The Shock Doctrine... she talks about disater capitalism and shock tactics... The State uses shock tactics or terror suspects to get them to admit to things, possibly things they didnt do, and what happens in the world eg 9/11 and tsunami's ext, shocks people, and it sort of subconciously distracts the mind and you accept things that you wouldnt normal accept (eg invasion of Iraq)...
That is large scale, but in our every day lives things could be doing the same... Things might of happened for a reason to get us to do somthing we wouldnt of done if that 'thing' had'nt of happened.... If you understand me,
Thats how i percieved the question anyway

I find that we always choose, however what dictates that choice is in itself a bit of a grey area. We choose based on past experiance and state at that time. One might be swayed to normaly stop and give insurance after a car crash, but because this person is having a bad day and is late they might speed off. It is indeed illegal but the person choses to speed off because of his/her state of mind. We do choose but our choices can be predisposed by not only ourselves but also from outside sources. The goverment destroying the Twin Towers because of the want to go fight is very similer. It made people angry at the Mid East so people allowed and were all for the invasion of a country that had nothing to do with the attack. Choices are logical, but the state of mind is not. Yes we choose but our choices can be manipulated.

I'm asking at a more basic level, prior to coercion. How do you even know you are choosing anything?

[DesertShark]

The question of "choice" relies upon several assumptions regarding the human condition:
1) There is a subject - a 'chooser.'
2) There are finite options - 'choices.'
3) There is an ability to choose among these options - 'will.'

Given that the human brain quantifies and qualifies it's situation within the material world, the second assumption (choices) is created through reductive rationality. The first assumption (chooser) is also created through language and the use of the subject-verb structure. The third assumption (will) is perhaps the toughest to explain... more later?

- August
I think the first assumption can be made prior to language use, its just easier to express through language. The 'mirror test' is used to see if non-human animals and human babies are "self-aware;" and the animals that do pass (elephants, dolphins, most primates, and possibly pigeons), I think most people assume that they don't have language.
So we don't actually know we have choices, we just assume that we do? If we make that assumption, then can't we just assume there is a "will?" I don't think that fills the criteria for 'knowing.'


DS:

Because I understand the English language.

[Except, outside of very odd circumstances, I would not use the word 'know' here.]
Understanding English doesn't mean you 'know' something. If you wouldn't use the word 'know,' then you are probably not one of the people the question is addressed to; as it is trying to draw out a coherent and convincing response from people who "know they make a choice."

[ComradeR]

This is actually a rather interesting idea. Are our actions nothing more then the result of the random chemical reactions in our brains, and our conscience is merely rationalizing them after the fact and that this is what we believe to be free will? Or are our choices truly the result of free will? The ironic thing is we wouldn't really know regardless of the answer.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

DS:


Understanding English doesn't mean you 'know' something. If you wouldn't use the word 'know,' then you are probably not one of the people the question is addressed to; as it is trying to draw out a coherent and convincing response from people who "know they make a choice."

One of the problems with using the word 'know' here is that anything you could appeal to to prove you knew you chose something would be far less certain than 'knowing' you had made a certain choice.

And, understanding the language is directly connected with this, since anyone who is capable of using the words contained in your question, but who might now, as a result of your question perhaps, wonder if they ever do know whether they have chosen something will also have chosen the right words to express even the doubt that they might not know they had chosen something, as indeed you must have done too when you chose to type the words of this question.

Of course, if you yourself do not understand the words you chose when you decided to write this question, then you are in no position to give voice to such doubts.

On the other hand, the fact that you understand the word 'choice' and how to use it (assuming you do) merely confirms that you at least do 'know' you made this choice.

Moreover, anyone understanding your question also 'knows' how to use this word when they choose to, and thus 'knows' when they make choices.

Alternatively, if they do not, then you are addressing individuals with a defective understanding of English, and you should take such matters in to consideration before asking them questions way above their capacity to comprehend.

Should you choose to, that is...

[Louise Michel]

DS:
One of the problems with using the word 'know' here is that anything you or anyone else could appeal to to prove you (or they) knew you (or they) chose something would be less certain than 'knowing' you (or they) had made a certain choice.

And, understanding the language is directly connected with this, since anyone who is capable of using the words contained in your question, but who might now as a result of your question perhaps wonder if they ever do know whether they have chosen something will also have chosen the right words to express even the doubt that they might not know they had chosen something, as indeed you must have done too when you chose to type the words of this question.

Of course, if you yourself do not understand the words you chose when you decided to write this question, then you are in no position to give voice to such doubts.

On the other hand, the fact that you understand the word 'choice' and how to use it (assuming you do) merely confirms that you at least do 'know' you made this choice.

Moreover, anyone understanding your question also 'knows' how to use this word when they choose to, and thus 'knows' when they make choices.

Alternatively, if they do not, then you are addressing individuals with a defective understanding of English, and you should take such matters in to consideration before asking them questions way above their capacity to comprehend.

Should you choose to, that is...

Well, I have no idea what this means. Rosa, how is doing this better than confusing people with mystical ideas?

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Louise:


Well, I have no idea what this means. Rosa, how is doing this better than confusing people with mystical ideas?

I have in fact provided a difficult argument supporting my original claim.

Here is the shorter, simpler version:

When DS chose the words she did for her question, she did so because she understands the English language, and thus what the word 'choose' means, and that she had indeed chosen them for a specific aim in mind.

On the other hand, if she chose words she did not understand, she is in no postion to raise doubts about what she or others are capable of choosing.

Does that help?

[My argument is based on Wittgenstein's work, especially that contained in On Certainty.]

So, not so much 'mystical' as difficult -- which is what you'd expect; the greatest minds on earth up until Wittgenstein exposed their work as just so much hot air, missed it.

[Louise Michel]

I have in fact provided a difficult argument supporting my original claim.

Here is the shorter, simpler version:

When DS chose the words she did for her question, she did so because she understands the English language, and thus what the word 'choose' means, and that she had indeed chosen them for a specific aim in mind.

On the other hand, if she chose words she did not understand, she is in no postion to raise doubts about what she or others are capable of choosing.

Does that help?

[My argument is based on Wittgenstein's work, especially that contained in On Certainty.]

So, not so much 'mystical' as difficult -- which is what you'd expect; the greatest minds on earth up until Wittgenstein exposed their work as just so much hot air, missed it.


Do you want to educate or humiliate? A serious question has been asked by someone who hasn't read as many books as you have. Do you really believe you know more than this person?

[Rjevan]

How do you know you made a decision?

I'm not saying that someone/something else is making the choice or decision for you, or that there actually are choices to be made. I'm just wondering how people know they are actually making "a choice."
I know that I made a choice if I decided for something and rejected the other option(s). Sorry if this is too simple, but I don't know how to express it better. ;)

Here's an example: Let's say I just moved to a village between two cities and my parents want me to decide if I should go to high school in city A or in city B. I don't think that it is predestined and that I have no real choice, because it is sure that I will go to high school in city B.
I sit down, take my time and consider the pros and cons of that one in city A after that I do the same for city B. Maybe I visited the schools and then I decide for that one in city B. I have never been there before, maybe I wasn't even totally convinced and it can't be in my genes that I have to go to school in city B.
After a few years I'm glad about that decission or maybe I regret it and think about how everything might have come in city A. And I'm sure I could have made the decission for city A.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Louise:


Do you want to educate or humiliate? A serious question has been asked by someone who hasn't read as many books as you have.

What do you want me to do? Pander to the lowest common denominator?

If I am to challenge the sort of ideas that have dominated 'western' (and 'eastern') thought for over 2400 years, I am forced to expose the common error in all such traditional questions, namely, a failure to look at how we actually use such words in everyday life, and not to tail-end ruling-class theorists who ask such empty questions.

Can I help it if I have read widely? I certainly would have welcomed such corrective assistance thirty years ago as an undergraduate.

Besides, DS did say:


Discuss away.

She did not say:


Discuss away only if you have read very little on this.

Louise:


Do you really believe you know more than this person?

I have absolutely no idea, and do not care. What is important here is to present an argument, and respond to criticism, not field personal attacks from you, or anyone else.

[mikelepore]

In posing the "free will" problem, the problem was the insertion of word "free" in front of "will" to force an unnecessary dichotomy. It tends to preclude people from considering the answer that we make the choices, but those reasons for those choices are caused. We can choose what to do based on what we like, but we can't choose what to like. I choose to wear a coat if it's cold, but I didn't choose to be the kind of animal that feels pain when it's cold. All choices are like this, made but also forced, unless they are meaningless to us, like "think of a number."

[Dean]

For those of you who believe in "free will," or anyone else who wants to address the question: How do You Know that "you choose" to do something? Or how do You Know your actions are "your choice?"

Discuss away.

Knowing that you actively attempt to do something out of a number of choices doesn't prove or disprove anything about what power you have over the action or the dynamics of that choice.

[C.B.]

By being able to post this topic. :laugh:

[Stranger Than Paradise]

There is no way to understand what influences each of our actions. In my opinion no one has complete free will. Some actions may be undeterred by the level of indoctrination and pressure we have bombarded at us every day but definitely free will doesn't exist for most things.

[DesertShark]

This is actually a rather interesting idea. Are our actions nothing more then the result of the random chemical reactions in our brains, and our conscience is merely rationalizing them after the fact and that this is what we believe to be free will? Or are our choices truly the result of free will? The ironic thing is we wouldn't really know regardless of the answer.
Yea its something that's been on my mind recently. I'm pretty sure I 'know' that I execute actions, but beyond that I don't 'know' if I 'choose' them or they just happen and like you said, I just rationalize that I choose them after the fact. I'm not sure how I feel about the whole "free will" thing, because how can an 'action' not be "free"? Action in itself is free; 'the slave who does not break his shackles is as free as the slave that does' (or something like that, I can't remember who said it). And I agree that we probably wouldn't know either way, but I wanted to hear what people who 'truly believe they "know" that they "choose" their actions' have to say to support their belief.

[DesertShark]

One of the problems with using the word 'know' here is that anything you could appeal to to prove you knew you chose something would be far less certain than 'knowing' you had made a certain choice.

And, understanding the language is directly connected with this, since anyone who is capable of using the words contained in your question, but who might now, as a result of your question perhaps, wonder if they ever do know whether they have chosen something will also have chosen the right words to express even the doubt that they might not know they had chosen something, as indeed you must have done too when you chose to type the words of this question.
Indeed, part of the reason I wanted those who believe they choose to defend/explain their belief.


Of course, if you yourself do not understand the words you chose when you decided to write this question, then you are in no position to give voice to such doubts.
Oh I understand the words in the context of our language, but that's not what this is about. This about people who truly believe they know they choose things and having them explain how they 'know.' Perhaps as a sly attempt for them to realize they can't know, along side a recent desire to see if anyone can sufficiently justify the belief.


On the other hand, the fact that you understand the word 'choice' and how to use it (assuming you do) merely confirms that you at least do 'know' you made this choice.
Because I understand how words are used within a language, does not mean that 'know' their application is accurate/correct/sufficient/valid/etc.


Moreover, anyone understanding your question also 'knows' how to use this word when they choose to, and thus 'knows' when they make choices.
They don't actually 'know,' they know how to use the language we developed and share, but they haven't proven knowledge of being able to choose.


Alternatively, if they do not, then you are addressing individuals with a defective understanding of English, and you should take such matters in to consideration before asking them questions way above their capacity to comprehend.
Perhaps, but how can anyone realize their "defective understanding," unless you point it out to them?

[DesertShark]

I know that I made a choice if I decided for something and rejected the other option(s). Sorry if this is too simple, but I don't know how to express it better. ;)
Is a choice only when you "decide for something?" Can you decide against something? Would that decision against something be "a choice?"


Here's an example: Let's say I just moved to a village between two cities and my parents want me to decide if I should go to high school in city A or in city B. I don't think that it is predestined and that I have no real choice, because it is sure that I will go to high school in city B.
I sit down, take my time and consider the pros and cons of that one in city A after that I do the same for city B. Maybe I visited the schools and then I decide for that one in city B. I have never been there before, maybe I wasn't even totally convinced and it can't be in my genes that I have to go to school in city B.
After a few years I'm glad about that decission or maybe I regret it and think about how everything might have come in city A. And I'm sure I could have made the decission for city A.
This example doesn't prove that you "know" that you "choose" something.

[DesertShark]

In posing the "free will" problem, the problem was the insertion of word "free" in front of "will" to force an unnecessary dichotomy. It tends to preclude people from considering the answer that we make the choices, but those reasons for those choices are caused. We can choose what to do based on what we like, but we can't choose what to like. I choose to wear a coat if it's cold, but I didn't choose to be the kind of animal that feels pain when it's cold. All choices are like this, made but also forced, unless they are meaningless to us, like "think of a number."
I only mentioned "free will" in the question because in my experience, its the people who believe in free will that also believe they choose things. I wanted to avoid the ridiculous discussion of free will, because how can an action not be free?
So you believe that 'we make choices, but the options for the choices and within the choices are caused?' I can see what you mean with the second part that choices (the options for them and within them) are caused, but I don't understand the "we make choices" part. How do you know that you "make a choice" or "choose something?"

[DesertShark]

Knowing that you actively attempt to do something out of a number of choices doesn't prove or disprove anything about what power you have over the action or the dynamics of that choice.
This is interesting, can you explain more about this "power we have over the action?"

[mikelepore]

So you believe that 'we make choices, but the options for the choices and within the choices are caused?' I can see what you mean with the second part that choices (the options for them and within them) are caused, but I don't understand the "we make choices" part. How do you know that you "make a choice" or "choose something?"

No doubt there's a correlation between what we like (or feel, believe, etc.) and what else we are observed to do. Some people like peppers and some don't. Some people eat peppers and some don't. A correlation is observed between those axes: the people who like it tend to be the same people who do it, and the people who don't like it tend to be the same people who don't do it. Where is that correlation caused? Not the soil below or the clouds above, but somewhere inside the human body. Probably in the brain. "Choice" is just the name for that particular electrochemical process in the brain. There are other processes inside us, and they have different names. Your question seems to indicate that the word has another connotation for you, but I'm not sure what.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

DS:


This about people who truly believe they know they choose things and having them explain how they 'know.' Perhaps as a sly attempt for them to realize they can't know, along side a recent desire to see if anyone can sufficiently justify the belief.

Fair enough, in which case, you are making a Wittgensteinian point.