"Tea-Party" madness underscores need for left opposition to Obama

[pauljpoposky]

It seems to me that the far-right is getting pretty active these days, if not terribly organized. MSNBC is covering all the "Tea-Parties" today on their main page, meant to correspond with the tax deadline today. While Ive had many of my comrades tell me that this is nothing to worry about, just a bunch of poorly-organized libertarian and constitutionalists, I still worry about the right-wing rhetoric being grafted onto the natural populist rage against the economic crisis and the neo-cons/neo-libs in washington. This is a time when those of us on the left need to be getting organized and stop our endless bickering and nitpicking over theoretical details and start reaching out to the masses. We have a right-wing party in power and further right-wingers claiming the sole voice of opposition nationally. I just see this as yet another potentially catastrophic shift right-ward in what should and still can be a golden opportunity for the real left to get its ideas out into the public. tell me what you think...

[CheFighter777]

These are now labeled as Right-Wing Terrorist, by the US Homeland Security. FINALLY!!!!


In a report made public today, the Department of Homeland Security warns that the recession and the election of President Obama are "fueling resurgence" of right-wing extremist groups that are seeking new recruits, especially returning veterans.
http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2009/04/report-warns-of-rise-of-rightwing-extremists-.html

[HoChiMilo]

In principle, I want to cause the least suffering possible. The right-wing current within these protests are being fooled into thinking that strong social programs are sucking their tax money away. It's actually mostly being spent on the military industrial complex. Less war = good in my opinion. Let the right believe whatever they want -- they don't realise they're working toward our goals.

We need to wake the populace up to the idea of re-allocation. We at least need a progressive income tax.

That being said, an interesting antic for a left wing counter-protest should be devised. I think I'll start another thread where we can post ideas (once I think of some good ones).:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Kassad]

A magazine a relative of mine gets called Intelligence Report has labeled the American Constitution Party as a hate group. Well-deserved, but we can see what we're dealing with. These are the equivalent of the New Black Panther Party and many neo-Nazi groups. I've sat through a lot of their meetings and I'm doing a gonzo-esque journalism piece on the Tea Party event at the Statehouse here in Columbus. I'll let you know all the odd events that go down.

[KC]

I thought that these "Tea Party" events were simply in opposition to TARP and Obama's budget? Are these protests from a right-wing perspective or something?

[Pogue]

They seem like a bunch of nutters.

[Kassad]

I thought that these "Tea Party" events were simply in opposition to TARP and Obama's budget? Are these protests from a right-wing perspective or something?

Yes, incredibly. Americans for Prosperity is the group running the rally by me. I don't know if they're overseeing all of them or just the one in Columbus. Their statement on it is this:


Americans for Prosperity (AFP) is a nationwide organization of citizen leaders committed to advancing every individual’s right to economic freedom and opportunity. AFP believes reducing the size and scope of government is the best safeguard to ensuring individual productivity and prosperity for all Americans. AFP educates and engages citizens in support of restraining state and federal government growth, and returning government to its constitutional limits.

We're dealing with right-wing conservatives, laissez-faire capitalists and Ron Paul supporters. Also, Glenn Beck has been endorsing these marches for a couple of weeks now on his show. Though the conservatives are split quite evenly between pro-war, patriotic/McCain supporters and laissez-faire libertarians, they're all right-wing. A lot of people are claiming that this rally is for all 'anti-Obama budget' people, which would include me, but I wouldn't dare show up with an ANSWER Coalition sign at this thing. I'm honestly afraid of getting mauled.

[Rosa Provokateur]

Taxes are crap: they dont wanna pay, more power to em

[Kassad]

Taxes are crap: they dont wanna pay, more power to em

Right. Who cares about those children who need public education, or that elderly man who needs social security to stay alive? More power to them.

[CheFighter777]

They seem like a bunch of nutters.

They are, and are no different that Jihadist suicide bombers, in that some of them are willing to die to defend their so called, "Constitution!!!"

How do I know? some guy I know is a die-hard Ron Paul supporter and has told me so. He calls me a Traitor, Communist, Socialist, etc...

[Kassad]

They are, and are no different that Jihadist suicide bombers, in that some of them are willing to die to defend their so called, "Constitution!!!"

How do I know? One of my buddy is a die-hard Ron Paul supporter and has told me so. He calls me a Traitor, Communist, Socialist, etc...

A lot of suicide bombers have given their life to defend their homes and their families from the United States and its imperialist tendencies. However absurd the tactic may be, you're also insulting a group of people by assuming that they're defending some sort of constitution. They're defending their homeland from invaders. Again, you're a racist.

[skki]

lol, the right wing does protests now. I'm even hearing Fox talk about a conservative revolution.

Endearing. Like watching a dog trying to walk on it's hind legs.

I even heard a right wing Libertarian type talk about showing "solidarity". Do they not realize they're protesting against a "left wing" government in a very leftist fashion?

Very funny. More of these please.

[skki]

a lot of suicide bombers have given their life to defend their homes and their families from the united states and its imperialist tendencies. However absurd the tactic may be, you're also insulting a group of people by assuming that they're defending some sort of constitution. They're defending their homeland from invaders. Again, you're a racist.

lol!

[Psy]

The problem is the media is ignoring the factory and school occupations in Europe. Image how American worker would react if on the news they say these occupations.

[pauljpoposky]

I think it is important that we start organizing mass events around real left politics to wrest-back the name of left politics from the political far-right wing, who are labelling Obama and his cronies as "left-wingers" and "socialists". I think it is important that we get control of the name of our political standing away from Obama Inc. as well, as they seem more than happy to portray themselves as supposedly "leftist" as well, though they have been cautious to dance around the allegations of "socialism". I think it is important that those of us who recognize the Obama admin as center-right-wing openly oppose both Obama & Co. AND the far-right wingers so that it is no longer up to them to tell the american people and the world what is "left" or what is "right". I really think if we dont go public we risk being further demonized, this time by people who have nothing to do with socialist ideas. I think if we can get our ideas out into public in a very open and easy to digest manner, perhaps something like the Workers Emergency Recovery Campaign but bigger and with more union support, I think the current crisis is a tremendous opportunity. And I dont think that is necessarily "opportunism", I think the current crisis REQUIRES us to act - very publically - and that when other working class people come to our ideas they wont care what label is associated with the politics of real working-class interests, of real and fundamental change. I think NOT acting is irresponsible on our part and practically hands the microphone, the camera and the stage to reactionary right-wingers.

[pauljpoposky]

The problem is the media is ignoring the factory and school occupations in Europe. Image how American worker would react if on the news they say these occupations.

I very much agree, comrade. I've actually been trying to keep a tally + details of all the factory occupations that have occured worldwide since Jan 2008. I would like to see that data used at some sort of public event to inform workers about the history and strategy of sit down strikes and workplace occupations and the return of factory occupations and resurgence of worker militancy worldwide.

[RedSonRising]

I agree with many of the sentiments expressed at such rallies, though unfortunately the concept of economic security for individuals and less government intrusion on life does not fit in with their definition of "Socialism." The number of signs against it made me wince, but I guess it's expected.

[Big Red]

ahh the ever popular teabaggers. from what I hear their a republican party front group that of which is the product of said party think tanks. looks to me like a bunch of angry old (probably mostly rich) white people. Don't toss them away as random crazies they should not be underestimated, and their getting a lot of airtime that leftists dont usually get due to the whole corporate media machine. Definetly not something to toss away, hell the nazis were pretty fucking crazy and look what they did, it's time we got down with some solidarity and countered these people.

[hugsandmarxism]

A magazine a relative of mine gets called Intelligence Report has labeled the American Constitution Party as a hate group. Well-deserved, but we can see what we're dealing with. These are the equivalent of the New Black Panther Party and many neo-Nazi groups. I've sat through a lot of their meetings and I'm doing a gonzo-esque journalism piece on the Tea Party event at the Statehouse here in Columbus. I'll let you know all the odd events that go down.

LOL, commie spy, you will be helping them realize their greatest fears! These people are already worried enough about Bolsheviks in their bath-tubs, why you gotta give 'em more grey hair? :laugh:

Seriously, though, it's good that you have the discipline and focus to sit through their drivel and gain intel on their activities. I'm not so sure I could do the same. Best of luck ;)

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

FUCK THE IRS.

I hope there is a Hell so they can burn.

Especially when my dollars are used for TARP. That is some motherfucking bullshit. Let's have some perspective, we have spent more on those scum than the war in Iraq has cost us (in $ terms, of course). Seriously, I don't see how anyone, most of all a lefty, can support taxes when they are used to prop up gigantic for-profit enterprises.

Except for that Left which doesn't work for a living, of course.

[Revy]

I've sat through a lot of their meetings and I'm doing a gonzo-esque journalism piece on the Tea Party event at the Statehouse here in Columbus. I'll let you know all the odd events that go down.

Any updates?

[Psy]

FUCK THE IRS.

I hope there is a Hell so they can burn.

Especially when my dollars are used for TARP. That is some motherfucking bullshit. Let's have some perspective, we have spent more on those scum than the war in Iraq has cost us (in $ terms, of course). Seriously, I don't see how anyone, most of all a lefty, can support taxes when they are used to prop up gigantic for-profit enterprises.

Except for that Left which doesn't work for a living, of course.

You do know there are proletariat that are employed by the state for example transit workers, firefighters and utility workers that wages are paid mostly through taxes.

[Hoxhaist]

We need to come up with some left alternative to these Tea Parties!

[Jack]

We could organize groups to go to them, bring anticapitalist banners.

[nightcrowred]

I agree, we (As lefty's) need to become more organized with each other. Even the CPUSA doesnt have much organization as a whole to create an outcry for social justice. Right now all we are doing is nitpicking about our ideals. Not all are going to be correct, however all we have is obama in office, (And thats as left as we can get right now.) to give our support. I call for Communists and Tecnocrats alike to join in and speak against the right wing nut jobs. Even though it doesnt seem like it now, they are getting organized and plan on sabatoshing anything that the left will throw out, hindering progression. We need to make a plan to fight back. Its time comrades, that we need to instill our voices again, and be taken seriously.

[Revy]

I agree, we (As lefty's) need to become more organized with each other. Even the CPUSA doesnt have much organization as a whole to create an outcry for social justice. Right now all we are doing is nitpicking about our ideals. Not all are going to be correct, however all we have is obama in office, (And thats as left as we can get right now.) to give our support. I call for Communists and Tecnocrats alike to join in and speak against the right wing nut jobs. Even though it doesnt seem like it now, they are getting organized and plan on sabatoshing anything that the left will throw out, hindering progression. We need to make a plan to fight back. Its time comrades, that we need to instill our voices again, and be taken seriously.

What I'd like to know is how you expect to be taken seriously as a supporter of the CPUSA.

Despite their alleged large membership they fail to adequately represent communism, instead opting to be Democrats and Obamamaniacs. They even have a text which interprets Lenin's "Left-Wing Communism: An Infantile Disorder" to support their pro-Democratic Party politics!

You're all at the most social democratic. Not much more left than that.

[DancingLarry]

This whole thing was largely organized through the mechanism of Fox News, with funding from groups like Americans for Prosperity and similar far-right foundations. One of the problems in dealing with a deeply entrenched hegemonic system is that it has not only the ability to co-opt public discontent, but to actually pre-empt it and replace genuine dissent with manufactured movements to reinforce bourgeois power.

Yes, we on the left do need to get organized, and it needs to begin in places like this where folks from a broad range of left perspectives can come together to hamer out a common agenda and action plan. Some say things like this site are useless, that we should immediately go out into the workplaces and community, but without a clear action plan, what are we going out into workplaces and community with? Rhetoric? I guaranty that the right-wingers that are building these neo-fascist movements aren't counting on the amazing powers of individual right-wingers drifting directionless and without a plan out in the community. Given their superior support from the power bases of the bourgeoisie, we need to be even better prepared, better organized, need better planning and lines of peer communication than the right-wingers have.

[Bilan]

A lot of suicide bombers have given their life to defend their homes and their families from the United States and its imperialist tendencies. However absurd the tactic may be, you're also insulting a group of people by assuming that they're defending some sort of constitution. They're defending their homeland from invaders. Again, you're a racist.

Painfully simplistic, negating the influence of religious fundamentalism, and more to the point, you're being a blatant apologist for terrorism.
Again, you're an apologist for reactionaries.

[Jack]

Honestly, if they're going to fight for capitalism, fuck it, let them have it. We'll all move to fucking Canada and move it left, let them deal with the mess they make, then they'll be crying for the left.

Then we swoop down, as heros from the North:D

[More Fire for the People]

These guys are bootcamps for Freikorps.

[PoWR]

The leaders of these protests know exactly what they're doing, but a large chunk of the participants are confused. There's no real clear political line among them. Still, this picture (see sign on right) sums up the nature of these actions nicely:

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/3575/r4148625404h.jpg

[Iuvo]

Apparently they all earn more than 250k a year, so they have a right to be mad. I mean, the 3% increase in taxes is CRAZY. But, seriously, what a smear campaign. Can someone go shoot Hannity and Beck?

[Patchd]

As a mate of mine said:

So the 'Libertarians' protested wasteful spending by getting people to blow money on millions of tea bags, AND they got sponsored by FOX News? Face it: CAPITALISM IS STUPID. And fuck you racist sexist freepers and your n00b shit.

[AvanteRedGarde]

So...Shouldn't ya'lls be out there trying to organize them or something. After all, according to most people here, these are "exploited workers."

It also begs the question of why they're so damn reactionary. I know most will say that its because they're "brainwashed by the bourgeois media" or sum it up as "false consciousness." But isn't a minimal amount of regular consciousness of the oppressed supposed to occur?

It also begs another question. If these pictures I'm looking at are representative of the "proletariat," and this type of reaction is part of a historical trend of the "proletariat" (which it is at least for its American franchise), then what's the point of fetishizing the "proletariat" as a revolutionary force? I know people are going to say that the "proletariat" are the oppressed class and the only one capable of making revolution, but where's the proof? Where's the evidence?

(Don't get me wrong, I'm all for revolution- the complete abolition of capitalism, imperialism, patriarchy, the state, etc- but at this point, the people represented in the pictures are obviously not a mass vehicle for such revolutionary change.)

[black magick hustla]

So...Shouldn't ya'lls be out there trying to organize them or something. After all, according to most people here, these are "exploited workers."

It also begs the question of why they're so damn reactionary. I know most will say that its because they're "brainwashed by the bourgeois media" or sum it up as "false consciousness." But isn't a minimal amount of regular consciousness of the oppressed supposed to occur?

It also begs another question. If these pictures I'm looking at are representative of the "proletariat," and this type of reaction is part of a historical trend of the "proletariat" (which it is at least for its American franchise), then what's the point of fetishizing the "proletariat" as a revolutionary force? I know people are going to say that the "proletariat" are the oppressed class and the only one capable of making revolution, but where's the proof? Where's the evidence?

(Don't get me wrong, I'm all for revolution- the complete abolition of capitalism, imperialism, patriarchy, the state, etc- but at this point, the people represented in the pictures are obviously not a mass vehicle for such revolutionary change.)

I never got why you mimite jokers that type Amerikkka and $$$nakes fetishize the third world proletariat that much. If anything, many areas of the third world are submerged into sectarian conflicts and civil wars to the point that there is very little *proletarian* consciousness. Some areas in the third world are heavy with class struggle, but some other areas, like for example Palestine or some countries in Africa, national and tribal struggles overwhelm any glimpse of class.

[Raúl Duke]

Not all are going to be correct, however all we have is obama in office, (And thats as left as we can get right now.) to give our support. I call for Communists and Tecnocrats alike to join in and speak against the right wing nut jobs. Even though it doesnt seem like it now, they are getting organized and plan on sabatoshing anything that the left will throw out, hindering progression.Are you arguing, subtly and/or implicitly, that we should go out there and protect Obama from these right-wingers? "Thats as left as we can get right now" is just pathetically not left enough at all.

:laugh:

The main deal here is that we really need to form a left opposition to Obama and not let the right capitalize on all the "collective anger." This is the main point, once we organize this opposition we can also criticize this right-wing movement (tea-baggers, libertarians, constitutionalists) while we are at it.

[Rosa Provokateur]

Right. Who cares about those children who need public education, or that elderly man who needs social security to stay alive? More power to them.

Free education and free health-care for each community, provided by each community. We dont need the State to provide for us, we need to be providing for ourselves.

[Psy]

So...Shouldn't ya'lls be out there trying to organize them or something. After all, according to most people here, these are "exploited workers."

It also begs the question of why they're so damn reactionary. I know most will say that its because they're "brainwashed by the bourgeois media" or sum it up as "false consciousness." But isn't a minimal amount of regular consciousness of the oppressed supposed to occur?

It also begs another question. If these pictures I'm looking at are representative of the "proletariat," and this type of reaction is part of a historical trend of the "proletariat" (which it is at least for its American franchise), then what's the point of fetishizing the "proletariat" as a revolutionary force? I know people are going to say that the "proletariat" are the oppressed class and the only one capable of making revolution, but where's the proof? Where's the evidence?

(Don't get me wrong, I'm all for revolution- the complete abolition of capitalism, imperialism, patriarchy, the state, etc- but at this point, the people represented in the pictures are obviously not a mass vehicle for such revolutionary change.)

Can you show me where the industrial proletariat (auto-workers, miners, transit workers, utility workers, dock workers, steel workers, ect) are in the picture? You can't because they are not there, the US industrial proletariat are no where near that reactionary.

[Sasha]

can somebody please explain what they exactly do with those teabags? hang them around their head, send them too the IRS (instead of their taxreturns) ? what did they do today?
i assume that they are reffering to the boston tea party but realy what is the use of the teabags? :confused:

[mykittyhasaboner]

i assume that they are reffering to the boston tea party but realy what is the use of the teabags? :confused:
They think that by carrying around tea bags that they are somehow carrying on the spirit of the Boston tea party. Im sure thats exactly what some of them would say. Nothing else is really done with them; what can you do with a tea bag, except for drink tea or display your shit politics?:rolleyes:

[Sasha]

so they want to pay less taxes so spend a ton of money inc. a shit load of sales tax on buying teabags for no good reason at all? :lol:


this anti-tax protest is brought to you by lipton and the IRS

[HoChiMilo]

The problem is the media is ignoring the factory and school occupations in Europe. Image how American worker would react if on the news they say these occupations.

you should pick up the latest issue of the industrial worker. here in my home state of new york, there's a student worker's occupation of NYU which i presume is still going on. Unfortunately, it's a LOT tougher in the states when it comes to having sit-ins and wildcat strikes. Remember, we're the bastion of western capitalism -- striking is considered unpatriotic and treasonous.

[HoChiMilo]

I very much agree, comrade. I've actually been trying to keep a tally + details of all the factory occupations that have occured worldwide since Jan 2008. I would like to see that data used at some sort of public event to inform workers about the history and strategy of sit down strikes and workplace occupations and the return of factory occupations and resurgence of worker militancy worldwide.

That's a wonderful idea but, again, there are soooo many restrictions when it comes to industrial and wage-work. At the factory I work at I can be fired for even whispering the word "union". Employers will do ANYTHING to suffocate organized labor because it's the american way!

[HoChiMilo]

Honestly, if they're going to fight for capitalism, fuck it, let them have it. We'll all move to fucking Canada and move it left, let them deal with the mess they make, then they'll be crying for the left.

Then we swoop down, as heros from the North:D
LOL. Ever hear the phrase "There are no athiests in a foxhole"? Well, there will be no ron paul supporters on the bread lines!

[RedSonRising]

I think a large part of what we need to do in opposition to Obama and our current Capitalist State is appeal to the more libertarian aspects of some people at such rallies, showing them an option that is opposed to both parties and that has roots in more community-based ideas, rather than partisan bullshit. Granted many of them are paranoid "socialism is treason" fanatics, but we should appeal to working people among those crowds that are angry at the state and mistakenly equate undemocratic spending with socialism. We can't win without them, in my opinion. While their culture is not that of progressive or revolutionary leftism, their aims of civil liberty and economic security/independence/autonamy are not alienated from the working class socialist movement.

[rednordman]

OMG...Whats wrong with the world? Is it me or is this just some little (and dear I say it) rather predictable event that signifies the recent decline of western civilsation as we know it? Because let me ask this: The does the right-wing really have any answers? Because what they suggest is making them hypercites because they say no tax for small buisness owners so they can afford more things and keep afloat, Then when they talk about the mega-rich: again no tax. So they then decide to actually keep on taxing the lower petit-bourgouis because they are at the bottom to the capitalist pecking order.
I think that it is quite fair to say that a world without any public services is not really workable. I can see how some libertarians may believe that it definitly will work and will be the next step in civilisation, but lets face it, we already live in a reasonable world to capitalism. What im saying is that in general, a large part of the world endorses free-trade (and if you say that some of the poorer nations dont actually have 'proper' free-trade: then lets even look at the state of the west right now) capitalism.

In the west since around the last 10 years, mabey more, people have had the freedom to do vitually anything that is within the law. This includes stuff that would have shocked people about 30-40 years ago. The ultra-libertarians may moan about the market not being 'free' enough, but its almost as free as ever (with the advancement of liberalism and even less censourship). The question I am posing is that of: If people are moaning about a virtually completely 'free' world in the capitalist sense, what makes them think that an even more 'free' world would be even better? Why would absolutley no tax be a good thing? and with that why would total privatisation be a success? If you where to look around at the world now, do you honestly think that things are really that great? (come on be honest: its all pretty fake and meaningless isnt it) Because that is exactly what the right-wing says to us when we moan about the modern days capitalism. We complain saying that everything is almost totally privatised, and they say, its better than anything we could offer. Yet then they moan about virtually the same thing, but try and go in the opposite direction a little bit more as if will make things better!? The government of the USA and of Europe, quite franky, is not bad to capitalists is it. So they are talking rubbish there.

Its like they have been bitten by the capitalist monster, and are using more capitalism as an anti-venom. Or want more security at war, yet have decided to throw away their precious armer going into battle.

I have been chastised by some people of being a 'communist sympathiser', and they have gone on to say that the thing with communism was that it was one big 'great hope' that did not work. Like people just accepted the idea and didnt think about how it would run, just hoped that it would work...I'm fastly beginning to see a striking parrallel with the capitalism and capitalists of today.

[Sasha]

using

the

enter

key

makes

your

posts

readable

:rolleyes:

[Guerrilla22]

What a huge bunch of tools. I'm still not sure what exactly it is they're protesting. I hate Obama too, but he actually passed the largest middle class tax break ever. The only people who are having their taxes raised are people making over 250,000 a year and actually they are just eliminating the Bush tax cuts for the rich, so their taxes are really just being restored to what they were before Bush.

If you object to paying taxes, big government and so called "socialism" so much then don't drive on the roads, and tear up your medicare cards and social security checks, otherwise shut up.

[rednordman]

using

the

enter

key

makes

your

posts

readable

:rolleyes:
Point taken

[Psy]

That's a wonderful idea but, again, there are soooo many restrictions when it comes to industrial and wage-work. At the factory I work at I can be fired for even whispering the word "union". Employers will do ANYTHING to suffocate organized labor because it's the american way!


The problem I had is with the bloody bourgeoisie unions, always trying to calm the flames of workers militancy. You can talk all you want about how shitty conditions are in the break rooms but as soon as you start talking about striking the union reps are there to convince the workers against it and at every strike they call they always sell the workers out and claim it as victory for example saying "they will only lay-off a quarter of the workers, the strike was a huge success". Also when a worker got injured on the job the union was there to tell us to remain claim and wait for the management's accident report and fought against the more militant workers organizing a slow down.

[CheFighter777]

After watching some of the news clips of the rallies, they basically looked like KKK rallies but without the hoods.

Didn't see one single minority in all the crowds!!!!

[GPDP]

OMG...Whats wrong with the world? Is it me or is this just some little (and dear I say it) rather predictable event that signifies the recent decline of western civilsation as we know it? Because let me ask this: The does the right-wing really have any answers? Because what they suggest is making them hypercites because they say no tax for small buisness owners so they can afford more things and keep afloat, Then when they talk about the mega-rich: again no tax. So they then decide to actually keep on taxing the lower petit-bourgouis because they are at the bottom to the capitalist pecking order.
I think that it is quite fair to say that a world without any public services is not really workable. I can see how some libertarians may believe that it definitly will work and will be the next step in civilisation, but lets face it, we already live in a reasonable world to capitalism. What im saying is that in general, a large part of the world endorses free-trade (and if you say that some of the poorer nations dont actually have 'proper' free-trade: then lets even look at the state of the west right now) capitalism.

In the west since around the last 10 years, mabey more, people have had the freedom to do vitually anything that is within the law. This includes stuff that would have shocked people about 30-40 years ago. The ultra-libertarians may moan about the market not being 'free' enough, but its almost as free as ever (with the advancement of liberalism and even less censourship). The question I am posing is that of: If people are moaning about a virtually completely 'free' world in the capitalist sense, what makes them think that an even more 'free' world would be even better? Why would absolutley no tax be a good thing? and with that why would total privatisation be a success? If you where to look around at the world now, do you honestly think that things are really that great? (come on be honest: its all pretty fake and meaningless isnt it) Because that is exactly what the right-wing says to us when we moan about the modern days capitalism. We complain saying that everything is almost totally privatised, and they say, its better than anything we could offer. Yet then they moan about virtually the same thing, but try and go in the opposite direction a little bit more as if will make things better!? The government of the USA and of Europe, quite franky, is not bad to capitalists is it. So they are talking rubbish there.

Its like they have been bitten by the capitalist monster, and are using more capitalism as an anti-venom. Or want more security at war, yet have decided to throw away their precious armer going into battle.

I have been chastised by some people of being a 'communist sympathiser', and they have gone on to say that the thing with communism was that it was one big 'great hope' that did not work. Like people just accepted the idea and didnt think about how it would run, just hoped that it would work...I'm fastly beginning to see a striking parrallel with the capitalism and capitalists of today.

This is what "libertarians" actually believe:
(http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/1394/tehfreemarketre5.jpg)

[rednordman]

The problem I had is with the bloody bourgeoisie unions, always trying to calm the flames of workers militancy. You can talk all you want about how shitty conditions in the break rooms but as soon as you start talking about striking the union reps are there to convince the workers against it and at every strike they class they always sell the workers out and claim it as victory for example saying "they will lay-off a quarter of the workers, the strike was a huge success". Also when a worker got injured on the job the union was there to tell us to remain claim and wait for the management's accident report and fought against the more militant workers organizing a slow down.This is because proper unions are the enemies of 'freedom' and 'liberty':rolleyes:.

[rednordman]

This is what "libertarians" actually believe:
(http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/1394/tehfreemarketre5.jpg)This is actually the best one I have ever seen!:lol:How can anyone ever question that, its just so clear (off to burn my books of marx and lenin)

[YSR]

Briefly:

These protests are not a laughing matter, small and underfunded as they currently are. Right-wing opposition to moderate or left governments removes the discursive space for radicals to thrive. As someone earlier pointed out, the media isn't covering factory occupations because of these protests. Anytime the right-wing takes to the streets to protest is potentially dangerous.

Cases: 1. Venezuela under Chavez. For all of the left's disagreements about Chavez's government, there is little leftist opposition to Chavez within the country, exactly because the right-wing has squeezed out all the possible space for dissent with their massive protests and coup attempts. This means that room to criticize Chavez from the left is minimal. In Veneuzela, in practice, one must be a Chavista or a reactionary.

2. Chile under Allende. The "Marches of the Empty Pots" were a turning point in Allende's presidency. Massive middle-class right-wing opposition was catalyzed via the media and Astroturfing front groups. The majority of the Left retreated behind the banner of Unidad Popular's government "legitimacy" and thus allowed the movement to grow. Only small leftist organizations took action against the opposition and did so without the support of the working class, who was invested in Allende's government.

These type of protests are not new nor harmless. They are not simply rich people blowing steam off. When the rich want to do that, they go golfing or something. This is a real threat to radical left, although indirectly, as I've indicated. This has happened before and if we don't confront it, we risk allowing our fellow workers to buy into the language and propaganda of this "movement."

This underscores the need of revolutionaries to build an anti-capitalist movement that takes direct action immediately. We cannot allow ourselves to be backed into the unenviably corner of reluctantly supporting Obama nor dismissed out of hand as lunatics. We must take direct action and recenter the debate away from "Obama vs. the rich" onto "the workers vs. the rich and Obama." Otherwise the working class perspectives will be written away and this will become another intraclass conflict in the bourgeosisie that will end up with us being neglected. This crisis provides a unique opportunity to get our message out through action and organization, we cannot waste it.

[rednordman]

Briefly:

These protests are not a laughing matter, small and underfunded as they currently are. Right-wing opposition to moderate or left governments removes the discursive space for radicals to thrive. As someone earlier pointed out, the media isn't covering factory occupations because of these protests. Anytime the right-wing takes to the streets to protest is potentially dangerous.

Cases: 1. Venezuela under Chavez. For all of the left's disagreements about Chavez's government, there is little leftist opposition to Chavez within the country, exactly because the right-wing has squeezed out all the possible space for dissent with their massive protests and coup attempts. This means that room to criticize Chavez from the left is minimal. In Veneuzela, in practice, one must be a Chavista or a reactionary.

2. Chile under Allende. The "Marches of the Empty Pots" were a turning point in Allende's presidency. Massive middle-class right-wing opposition was catalyzed via the media and Astroturfing front groups. The majority of the Left retreated behind the banner of Unidad Popular's government "legitimacy" and thus allowed the movement to grow. Only small leftist organizations took action against the opposition and did so without the support of the working class, who was invested in Allende's government.

These type of protests are not new nor harmless. They are not simply rich people blowing steam off. When the rich want to do that, they go golfing or something. This is a real threat to radical left, although indirectly, as I've indicated. This has happened before and if we don't confront it, we risk allowing our fellow workers to buy into the language and propaganda of this "movement."

This underscores the need of revolutionaries to build an anti-capitalist movement that takes direct action immediately. We cannot allow ourselves to be backed into the unenviably corner of reluctantly supporting Obama nor dismissed out of hand as lunatics. We must take direct action and recenter the debate away from "Obama vs. the rich" onto "the workers vs. the rich and Obama." Otherwise the working class perspectives will be written away and this will become another intraclass conflict in the bourgeosisie that will end up with us being neglected. This crisis provides a unique opportunity to get our message out through action and organization, we cannot waste it. Be truthfull though, is the US government really even a morderate government? Either that or the meaning of leftwing has changed from "being against capitalism" to "learning to accept capitalism".

[YSR]

That really has nothing to do with the analysis of the situation, Rednordman. Obviously I don't support Obama and as an anarchist I am skeptical of any claims that governments can be progressive. But concretely, it doesn't matter what my personal opinion is about the Obama administration. What does matter is the opinion of the right-wing.

[rednordman]

@YSR
I suppose the opinion of the rightwing is what is the most sad thing about this. Being in the UK, I have not heard much about this, but from most of the posts on this thread, it seems that the real people who are protesting are the rich who are on more the $250,000 a year and such. Basically they seem to be protesting at the aid (tax-cuts etc) given to the small time buisnesses and petit-bougois. Or as we would say, people trying to get up the ladder. The thing is that these protesters are SO reactionary and short sighted that they a deciding that they want to burn the ladder down? Would I be correct in that assumption?

If so does this not just prove the rightwing as counter-productive as they basically want get into positions of monopoly? (which I always thought went against the ideals of free-trade).

[Iowa656]

Has everyone seen the Huffington Post article on the protests?

10 most offensive Tea Party signs. One says "The American Tax payers are the Jews to Obama's Ovens" another "Obama, new face of Hitler". Demonstrating the general stupidity of Conservatives in the US.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/16/10-most-offensive-tea-par_n_187554.html

Just a strange point, but has anyone else realised that the Conservatives in the USA are protesting because their Government is "too far left" while the rest of the world is protesting because their government is too capitalist.

[Kassad]

Any updates?

I arrived around 5:30 at the Ohio Statehouse. The place was swarmed already. I sat at my car for about ten minutes going "Shit, do I really have the balls to do this?" I decided that I did and grabbed my "We Need Jobs and Schools, Not War!" ANSWER Coalition sign. I feel happy to know I did it, but I was harassed, called a 'dumb shit', 'dumbass,' 'ignorant communist' and a 'tyrant.' Stirring.

The theme of the day seemed to be 'Don't Tread on Me' flags. Despite the fact that the Founders acknowledged the need for taxes by striking down the Articles of Confederation and ratifying the Constitution, people still clung to reactionary support for the Constitution and the Founders. There was a consensus, in general, and that was that

- Socialism is tyrranical.
- Taxes should be drastically lowered or non-existent.
- Obama sucks.

There were multiple groups, not specifically named, but ideological tendencies. If I were to estimate, I’d say it was about 60% McCain conservatives/40% Ron Paul libertarians. As a revolutionary socialist, I realize how corrupt capitalist police are, but I can say that I did feel secure for once. I was the only person there from my mindset. There was no counter protest. I stayed by the police on the sidewalk, half because I was in fear for my safety, but mostly because I had a sign on a stick and the police said that anyone with signs on a stick must stay off the Statehouse lawn. I suppose I could understand, since you never know what these conservative freaks will do. By 6:00, I had already debated with three people. One was a McCain supporter with an American flag who said I was a ‘dumbass’ because this wasn’t an anti-war rally, it was an anti-tax rally. I subsequently told him that the war and military spending are the prime siphons from the wallets of the working class. He had no real response and claimed that, in my own words, “If we hadn’t gone into Iraq, it would’ve turned into a terrorist training camp. We would’ve had to have gone in eventually.” As ignorant as this was, I didn’t want to start things, so I just told him I respected his opinion. He was respectful after that, patted me on the back and shook my hand. Let’s just say I washed it thoroughly upon my arrival home.

The second person I talked to was an older woman with an ‘America is a Christian Country!’ sign, which on the back said ‘ILLEGAL Immigrants? What about ILLEGAL don’t you understand?’ I asked her if she was a fan of the Spanish Inquisition. She asked me if I was referring to the Spanish-American War. I walked away.

The third encounter I had was with a lady I knew who distributes and produces a paper in my city called The Liberty Voice. It’s a newspaper that was incredibly avid about supporting Ron Paul’s presidential campaign and after his campaign ended the campaign of incredibly racist, xenophobic and reactionary Chuck Baldwin, the candidate for the American Constitution Party. I got kicked out of one of his events at Capital University in October. There was a protest against his presence that some ANSWER folks organized. I decided to go in after the protest and when he ranted and raved about illegal immigrants stealing our jobs, I shouted “How can a human being be illegal? Didn’t Christ say to respect our neighbors?” I got booed, ironically, and security came in and asked me to leave. Baldwin is a Baptist preacher, by the way. The second person was a Campaign for Liberty volunteer, which is Ron Paul’s liberty-minded organization that is organizing events and stuff like the Tea Party protests. He told me that ‘You do know ANSWER is a front for Workers World Party.’ I told him that ANSWER left Workers World after they split with the Party for Socialism and Liberation. He asked me if I supported them. I told him ‘No, I carry this sign around for shits and giggles.’ They both walked away.

At this point, it was around 6:15 or 6:30 and the first speaker stood up. I didn’t see her face, but apparently she’s running for Columbus City Council. She informed the people that Ronald Reagan had the right idea and the Democratic Party feared him. She stated that the United States is a Christian nation and the attempted smears by the left to remove morality from our schools and our workplace will not go undeterred. She said something else that I either couldn’t hear, or my rational mind blocked it out. After which, chants echoed through the event screaming “USA! USA!” At this point, I began to feel sick. I went back to my car and left.

As I drove by the group of 30 or so people on the sidewalk that were waving to cars, I honked a few times. They cheered and I stopped and said. “No, shut the fuck up. People are starving because of you. Socialism is the answer.” I flipped them the finger and drove away. On the way home, I pondered a few things I saw. First of all, I saw a sign that said ‘A Tax on Labor is Slavery.’ It made me sad because, in truth, the sign was true, but for all the wrong reasons. I realized I shouldn’t feel sorry for any of these people, but merely realize that they are at an immature point in human development where one stops caring about others. These people want to put big locks on their doors, buy guns and have enough money to buy luxuries. That’s all. They don’t care about anyone else, or else they would address their incredibly idiotic stances. In truth, I saw the enemy at the protest. I’m hoping this event made me a little less sectarian, as I realize that even conservatives with different ideologies will unite, whereas the radical left will not. We need to get past that and realize that if we do not unite, this is what will be running the country and the world.

I truly hate it here in this city and yesterday reminded me exactly why we need to struggle. We need to evolve because some people are still clinging to primitive beliefs like this. I’m also talking to ANSWER to see if we can organize some nationwide counter protest. I’ll keep you all updated if anything comes up.

[Revy]

What about May Day? There's a saying, "April showers bring May flowers" :p

[Kassad]

May Day's an odd topic. Workers World endorsed the May Day events and the Party for Socialism and Liberation usually does, but I don't see them on the endorser list yet. I'm hoping the animosity between the two parties isn't a reason for being so sectarian as to not endorse an event, but I'll get back to you on that.

[pauljpoposky]

Are you arguing, subtly and/or implicitly, that we should go out there and protect Obama from these right-wingers? "Thats as left as we can get right now" is just pathetically not left enough at all.

:laugh:

The main deal here is that we really need to form a left opposition to Obama and not let the right capitalize on all the "collective anger." This is the main point, once we organize this opposition we can also criticize this right-wing movement (tea-baggers, libertarians, constitutionalists) while we are at it.


I agree, but I also think it is important to add that we on the left need to frame our criticism of Obama as open criticism of Capitalism generally and make it very clear that we are NOT just trying to "push Obama to give us this or that petty reform" (quoting a friend); also, I think we absolutely must leave NO mistaken impressions that we are trying to "defend Obama" against these far right wingers. Obama and these teabaggers have far more in common with each other, both being capitalists and unquestioning supporters of capitalism. We must be very clear from the beginning that we are against right wing reaction AND equally against neo-liberal capitalist reforms. We need to be on the streets, visible and openly calling for socialism as the only solution for working people.

[redSHARP]

look...these people are jackasses!! we can easily manipulate them with basic libertarian socialism, without being overtly communist! we need to sway these jackasses or at least sabotage them. what would happen if 25 people showed up with red flags and shouted support for them?! openly left people supporting the basic idea of the constitution and civil rights (we play that part of the protests)! its perfect (of course we bite our lips on a few issues)! we might not support their stupidity, but we can use it to our advantage.

[AvanteRedGarde]

What about MayDay? The largest May Day demonstrations in recent American history were in support of immigrant rights and composed vastly of Chicanos and Mexicans.

Are you talking about the huge May Day demonstrations composed of a broad array of workers, taking an anti-capitalist stance? I must have missed those.

[Kassad]

What about MayDay? The largest May Day demonstrations in recent American history were in support of immigrant rights and composed vastly of Chicanos and Mexicans.

Are you talking about the huge May Day demonstrations composed of a broad array of workers, taking an anti-capitalist stance? I must have missed those.

I'm referring to the immigrant rights demonstrations, but they're supported by groups like Socialist Party USA and Workers World. They usually have some form of presence there.

[DancingLarry]

Briefly:

These protests are not a laughing matter, small and underfunded as they currently are.

I don't disagree that these teabagging movements are dangerous because it is the far-right encroaching right into what should be note only our base, or working-class and lower-middle-class people, but also using what should be our hour, when corporate greed and sleaze is on most naked display. BUt there is a reason they are able to do so, which is that they are not "under-funded" by any stretch of the imagination, they have enormous resources behind them, both in terms of actual cash, and the incredible "in-kind" promotional service they received from Fux News and other rightist corporate media outlets. That's something we smply don't have anyhting comparable to. This "movement" is astroturf, but corporate America has already proven that they can pave the world and ake astroturf look like real grass. Now they do so politically.

[DancingLarry]

EuroMayDay (http://www.euromayday.org/)


Precarisation is the norm, temp work, low salaries, unemployment. Barbed wire, uniforms and camps that protect fortress-europe, excluding and persecuting thousands of women, men and children.


Police and armies are in the streets, with their cameras and helicopters. Control is everywhere, terrorist laws are used to legitimize repression. The media keeps the lid on the pot that is starting to boil over. At the same time it is doing its best to convince us to keep up consumption. The serpent is eating its own tail. Our brothers and sisters in the south are paying the bill; and we pay too. Animals becoming extinct show the way to the future generations. And at the same time, the banks are throwing our billions out the window...



We live in great times! The crisis, the crisis, the crisis, the sound of the universe. Which crisis? The economists announce the end of neoliberalism. After years of TINA - there is no alternative- we thank the banks for their revelation: money is not the problem. Everything is possible! One hides or one fights! A new social contract, increased alienation, increased exploitation, increased precarity in all parts of life. Managing precarity, a disaster? Living in precarity is a permanent crisis and the disaster is already there.



The crisis is a big wave; you can surf or you can drown. To make it short: Our struggles happens in everydays live. Our tracks cross the borders of nation, social contracts and gender. Our battles are visible. The social demands are obvious, or maybe not? We speak to Europe, we announce it to the world: we like to surf, and it is our turn to ride the wave. From the 30th April to the 1st of May, we will take the power back, we will regain our creativity and speed. We and everyone who wants to. The banks are everywhere, dominating life, even though they are not alive. The stock markets have shown that only one card needs to be pushed over for the whole castle to collapse.



For this mayday we know the targets!
MAYDAY MAYDAY MAKE THEM PAY!


This is a network that has been growing a reborn workers MayDay movement, mostly in Europe up to now.

This year it has a significant Japan presence. Maybe next year we can think about hooking some US cities into the MayDay Network?

[ZeroNowhere]

look...these people are jackasses!! we can easily manipulate them with basic libertarian socialism, without being overtly communist! we need to sway these jackasses or at least sabotage them. what would happen if 25 people showed up with red flags and shouted support for them?! openly left people supporting the basic idea of the constitution and civil rights (we play that part of the protests)! its perfect (of course we bite our lips on a few issues)! we might not support their stupidity, but we can use it to our advantage.
Yes, of course, let's get loads of 'stupid' people to our side through dishonesty and manipulating their weak minds! Whee!
Because having a superiority complex based on political current should not just be limited to Randroids, let's spread the crap around.


working-class and lower-middle-class people
Can't we at least be consistent in our class analysis?


Right-wing opposition to moderate or left governments
Phew. At least we don't have to get alarmed about that here.


Its like they have been bitten by the capitalist monster, and are using more capitalism as an anti-venom.
More capitalism? What does that even mean?

[Rosa Provokateur]

striking is considered unpatriotic and treasonous.

Not always, just depends on when and who by. The Teamsters are pretty good at defending their actions, you just gotta know how to make good PR; example: when I talk about the war I say I do it because I support the troops and want them out of harms way. Just have to be good-hearted and honest:)

[Sarah Palin]

While Ive had many of my comrades tell me that this is nothing to worry about, just a bunch of poorly-organized libertarian and constitutionalists,

I wish it were just libertarians and constitutionalists. I was in Charleston on tax day and completely forgot about these gatherings and what do I stumble upon but 2,000 angry red necks. I saw some constitutionalist signs but was overwhelmed by the GOP rhetoric and a surprising amount of off subject abortion activists, christian activists, and so on.
It was quite unorganized but there was a definite "glorify the broken republican party" motive.

[rednordman]

More capitalism? What does that even mean?I suppose that I should have said even less state intervention, thus freeing the market up even more than it already is (this baffles me also, like there too much state intervention and taxes anyway?). As if that is going to save the world or something:rolleyes:. I guess that they clear believe that they do not need the state, yet it is clearly there to protect their interests. I just do not understand why the capitalist classes wants rid of something set up to protect them.

[ZeroNowhere]

I suppose that I should have said even less state intervention, thus freeing the market up even more than it already is (this baffles me also, like there too much state intervention and taxes anyway?). As if that is going to save the world or something:rolleyes:. I guess that they clear believe that they do not need the state, yet it is clearly there to protect their interests. I just do not understand why the capitalist classes wants rid of something set up to protect them.
Well, generally, I don't believe that too many capitalists would be extreme neoliberals (Hell, there's quite a few liberals in there). Still, it does give a good excuse to cut welfare programs and such until necessary to halt a movement, and, after all, welfare and similar programs tend to be what the neoliberals focus on most, as opposed to war spending, bailouts, etc, on which the anti-war and anti-bailout elements are generally ignored.

[free_state_anarchist]

This is my first post. This site looked interesting so I just wanted to check it out.


What a huge bunch of tools. I'm still not sure what exactly it is they're protesting. I hate Obama too, but he actually passed the largest middle class tax break ever. The only people who are having their taxes raised are people making over 250,000 a year and actually they are just eliminating the Bush tax cuts for the rich, so their taxes are really just being restored to what they were before Bush.

I am not not surprised you don't know what their protesting. Basic economics concepts can be difficult for some people to understand. The biggest enemy of the working class isn't their shift manager, but inflation. Want to know something else? The cumulative effect of everything Obama and Bush have done so far has basically doubled the money supply. That is one hell of a tax. Not only a tax, but a redistribution of money from the poor to the corporate elite.


if you object to paying taxes, big government and so called "socialism" so much then don't drive on the roads, and tear up your medicare cards and social security checks, otherwise shut up.

I wonder if you realized you were making an argument against "rightist" using what is essentially a rightist argument. :rolleyes: Ever heard anyone say something like "love it or leave it" to you? Of course that is an absurd argument, but those are the two options you are creating here.
Lets say I am put in charge of the production and allocation of food in a large city for some reason. Of course this would result in wide spread starvation throughout the city. (I don't know how to allocate food in a way that creates the greatest good for the greatest number of people) Lets say tickets that are redeemable for food are spread throughout the economy. Now, if someone said this system was bullshit and should be abolished would you respond "if you object to food tickets and this so called "socialism" so much then why don't you burn up your food tickets"
I hope you see the absurdity.... But what you are already saying was absurd so an analogy to illustrate the absurdness of what you are saying might be out of reach.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

You do know there are proletariat that are employed by the state for example transit workers, firefighters and utility workers that wages are paid mostly through taxes.

You do know their are proletariat that are employed by massive for-profit financial organizations for example janitors, cooks and stewardesses that wages are paid mostly through taxes.

Doesn't make me feel any better. Oh, and as for the amount paid to firefighters (local level, has nothing to do with the IRS) or transit workers (local level, has nothing to do with IRS) or utility workers (again.....) that is spit in the ocean compared to the benefit going towards shareholders of massive corporations.

[HoChiMilo]

The problem I had is with the bloody bourgeoisie unions, always trying to calm the flames of workers militancy. You can talk all you want about how shitty conditions are in the break rooms but as soon as you start talking about striking the union reps are there to convince the workers against it and at every strike they call they always sell the workers out and claim it as victory for example saying "they will only lay-off a quarter of the workers, the strike was a huge success". Also when a worker got injured on the job the union was there to tell us to remain claim and wait for the management's accident report and fought against the more militant workers organizing a slow down.

Think of it as a reference point. Bourgeois unionization is considered far too radical for the american way. The likes of Carter never even came close to instilling the sort of fabian social democracy seen in some european countries. America doesn't even want the workers to negotiate with the bosses. To the politicians, being in support of organized labor in any form is tantamount to treason.

[HoChiMilo]

Not always, just depends on when and who by. The Teamsters are pretty good at defending their actions, you just gotta know how to make good PR; example: when I talk about the war I say I do it because I support the troops and want them out of harms way. Just have to be good-hearted and honest:)
You're absolutely right. However, that's not the kind of patriotism that influences public policy. Politicians, remember, have their jobs because their pockets were lined by big businesses. If a politician's constituency is in support of someone like the teamsters, he or she will give away just enough concessions to pacify the union and shut the workers up without losing the corporate elite as benefactors. I honestly think this country is closer to overturning Roe v. Wade than even passing the EFCA.

[La Comédie Noire]

I've been looking at pictures of all these Tea Party Protests and I saw just what I expected, old people. Just a sea of balding and gray heads jabbering on about absolutely nothing.

They don't have the youth, thank goodness.

[pauljpoposky]

Think of it as a reference point. Bourgeois unionization is considered far too radical for the american way. The likes of Carter never even came close to instilling the sort of fabian social democracy seen in some european countries. America doesn't even want the workers to negotiate with the bosses. To the politicians, being in support of organized labor in any form is tantamount to treason.

indeed, as can be seen in the Democratic party's silent retreat away from EFCA (as if they ever really paid anything more than lip service to EFCA anyway!). my favorite hypocrite to watch on liberal bourgeois media is Rachel Maddow, who in one breath talks favorably of EFCA, then in the next lauds Obama's calls for more concessions from the auto workers.

[Wanted Man]

This is what "libertarians" actually believe:
(http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/1394/tehfreemarketre5.jpg)
Heh, I once had this great picture of a guy in a straitjacket with all sorts of signs (incl. "The South will rise again"), with two medics saying: "Paranoid schizophrenic?" "No, paleo-libertarian." Unfortunately, I lost it and can't find it back. :(

[mykittyhasaboner]

This whole fucking tea party insanity has gone way too far.

[GPDP]

This whole fucking tea party insanity has gone way too far.

They're even in my area now. In one of the fucking poorest areas, if not THE poorest, in the US.

A friend of mine said it was mostly white people (and they're the vast minority down here), though a few young hispanics were there as well. Probably students from my uni. I can't conceive of anyone else that's not a privileged ass that would support this.

[mykittyhasaboner]

They're even in my area now. In one of the fucking poorest areas, if not THE poorest, in the US.

A friend of mine said it was mostly white people (and they're the vast minority down here), though a few young hispanics were there as well. Probably students from my uni. I can't conceive of anyone else that's not a privileged ass that would support this.

Where would this area be?

They had a tea-wasting party in ft. laud to. I saw it myself, it was quite pathetic. The majority of them were over the age 40 anyone younger were their kids; they had no political/ideological representation, and simply seemed to be a bunch of fools protesting the "socialist moves of Obama". Its like another Red Scare, except its morons who are stuck in the past rather than the government running it.

[GPDP]

Where would this area be?

South Texas. It's a predominantly Mexican and Mexican-American area. Income levels and standards of living are among the lowest in the nation.

[STJ]

They seem like a bunch of nuts.

[Psy]

You do know their are proletariat that are employed by massive for-profit financial organizations for example janitors, cooks and stewardesses that wages are paid mostly through taxes.

Doesn't make me feel any better. Oh, and as for the amount paid to firefighters (local level, has nothing to do with the IRS) or transit workers (local level, has nothing to do with IRS) or utility workers (again.....) that is spit in the ocean compared to the benefit going towards shareholders of massive corporations.

While true it means you are making it impossible for the federal government to nationalize industry even if they wanted to. For example even if the federal government wanted to take over General Motors and get them to focus on building trucks, buses and light rail vehicles for federal subsidized urban renewal projects they couldn't.

[Rosa Provokateur]

You're absolutely right. However, that's not the kind of patriotism that influences public policy. Politicians, remember, have their jobs because their pockets were lined by big businesses. If a politician's constituency is in support of someone like the teamsters, he or she will give away just enough concessions to pacify the union and shut the workers up without losing the corporate elite as benefactors. I honestly think this country is closer to overturning Roe v. Wade than even passing the EFCA.

Thats why you gotta do politics where it counts, on the local level. Right now in the town I live in there's a huge debate about whether to unify the two municipal utility districts in the area; MUD2 isnt running as well as MUD1 and the proposed solution is to put MUD1's management in control of MUD2. I'm voting against it and telling people to put more responsible management on MUD2. I figure this'll keep the local government de-centralized, get people more involved in the production/distribution process, and keep things over-all more democratic.

On the local-level, politicians can work for the people... Harvey Milk anybody?

[Iuvo]

However, Obama got his job, not only from big business, but from massive amounts of little donations. I myself donated $20 to his campaign (despite not being a democrat). I think we have to support Obama, especially as part of the left. Many of his policies (investing in technological advancement, increasing Dept of Education budget, health care reform) all are about as much as we can hope for from a president in order to advance our agenda.

[AvanteRedGarde]

That last post made me puke in my lap.

[Pogue]

However, Obama got his job, not only from big business, but from massive amounts of little donations. I myself donated $20 to his campaign (despite not being a democrat). I think we have to support Obama, especially as part of the left. Many of his policies (investing in technological advancement, increasing Dept of Education budget, health care reform) all are about as much as we can hope for from a president in order to advance our agenda.

Why would we support the leader of the worlds most rich and aggressive ruling class? Should we support his ordering of the bombing of villages in Pakistan that kill civilians?


I myself donated $20 to his campaign

Grats on shooting yourself in the leg, perhaps when you get battoned on a protest or get your job taken from you, you can have the warm fuzzy feleing of knowing you did your bit to fund that.


to advance our agenda

So what is 'our' agenda then?

[pastradamus]

FUCK THE IRS.

I hope there is a Hell so they can burn.

Especially when my dollars are used for TARP. That is some motherfucking bullshit. Let's have some perspective, we have spent more on those scum than the war in Iraq has cost us (in $ terms, of course). Seriously, I don't see how anyone, most of all a lefty, can support taxes when they are used to prop up gigantic for-profit enterprises.

Except for that Left which doesn't work for a living, of course.

Thats because the USA uses tax's in a perverse manner. Look at say, Canada or France where the tax is much higher than in the US. You have free health care and education(france anyway) both of which are great assets to the working class. What taxes you do pay in America are used in a bad manner but I believe You are listening to Fox News too much. Low Taxs = Expensive private education, poorly paid public workers, expensive private health, expensive health insurance companies and no real form of a national service.

From expericence with regards to Germany and France. Higher taxes = free education, free health, well paid public sector workers and no shitty health insurance criminals.

[pastradamus]

However, Obama got his job, not only from big business, but from massive amounts of little donations. I myself donated $20 to his campaign (despite not being a democrat). I think we have to support Obama, especially as part of the left. Many of his policies (investing in technological advancement, increasing Dept of Education budget, health care reform) all are about as much as we can hope for from a president in order to advance our agenda.

Stop being so Naive man. Obama isn't going to make any real difference for the average working class American. Now in saying that I preferred him to McCain and Obama does seem likable in a way. But why in your right mind did you donate 20 hard-earned bucks to line the coffers of someone funded by Billionaire Multi-Nationals? Fuck Obama, he's a free-market liar and a show pony for the elite.

[Iuvo]

Do you ever wonder why, despite all your efforts put into activism, your cause is going no where? Is it because you envision some form of mini-god to come out and revolutionize everything? Perhaps a more pragmatic approach would help. Obama is the only realistic choice we have in America (you think that guy, Moore, is ever going to get a seat in the House, let alone be elected for president?). He (Obama) is pushing for affordable education (even increased the PELL), for health-care, and for technology. What the hell else do you want, when the nation is divided ideologically (and the system is set up in a way that would inhibit radical change).


He won't make a crazy difference but he will take it a step further (remember his first act as president? He's even talking to Chavez and looking to talk to Castro), however small the step is (think back to Dubya and how he fucked it all). At least I'm doing something. You can't boycott it all and hope for it all to evolve.

[pastradamus]

Do you ever wonder why, despite all your efforts put into activism, your cause is going no where? Is it because you envision some form of mini-god to come out and revolutionize everything? Perhaps a more pragmatic approach would help. Obama is the only realistic choice we have in America (you think that guy, Moore, is ever going to get a seat in the House, let alone be elected for president?).

Firstly I would like to bring to you attention that Moore is a Director and an activist - Not a politician. He has stated this on numerous occasions.
No, I dont believe in any god including a god of varying sizes. Obama was the lesser of two evils. An opposite side of the same coin. If he genuinely had your interests at heart he would'nt be bailing out Multi-national corporate interests who drop staff like a bad habit. Activism works -its a proven fact. Trade union struggles is a form of activism which is extremely successfull all over the world. We could do nothing and just vote for Obama and pray he goes easy on us for the next couple of years, but I would rather not.


He (Obama) is pushing for affordable education (even increased the PELL), for health-care, and for technology. What the hell else do you want, when the nation is divided ideologically (and the system is set up in a way that would inhibit radical change).
The American Nation is not ideologically driven, when it comes to voting either way. The Democrats and Republicans rely heavily on Interest groups, Corporate companies, foreign support, traditional voters and identity groups to win elections. The nation is inhibited in a way from radical change, yes. Thats why only radicals can unhibit this and actually cause change.



He won't make a crazy difference but he will take it a step further (remember his first act as president? He's even talking to Chavez and looking to talk to Castro), however small the step is (think back to Dubya and how he fucked it all). At least I'm doing something. You can't boycott it all and hope for it all to evolve.

Im not suggesting a boycott of any kind. Im simply saying that America is a country where very little ideological difference exists between the two parties. Obama had no choice but to talk to Chavez and other's after Bush alienated them from the white house. Is he an improvement on Bush? Yes he is but he's not the required improvement for the american people.

[Pogue]

Do you ever wonder why, despite all your efforts put into activism, your cause is going no where? Is it because you envision some form of mini-god to come out and revolutionize everything? Perhaps a more pragmatic approach would help. Obama is the only realistic choice we have in America (you think that guy, Moore, is ever going to get a seat in the House, let alone be elected for president?). He (Obama) is pushing for affordable education (even increased the PELL), for health-care, and for technology. What the hell else do you want, when the nation is divided ideologically (and the system is set up in a way that would inhibit radical change).


He won't make a crazy difference but he will take it a step further (remember his first act as president? He's even talking to Chavez and looking to talk to Castro), however small the step is (think back to Dubya and how he fucked it all). At least I'm doing something. You can't boycott it all and hope for it all to evolve.

I think you misunderstand what I advocate. I'm not in favour of any electoralism. Even if Obama was a really great guy and die-hard socialist, he wouldn't be able to improve things because of the nature of 'democracy' under bourgeois class rule. If he tried to make radical changes, he'd probably be killed or ousted. We have seen this throughout history. Labour governments of the past (Old Labour) were actually told by the banks they wouldn't let them carry out left wing banking reforms because it undermined capitalism. Morales is being violently opposed by right wingers. The Spanish Republic's left wing government was violent ousted by a bourgeoisie united behind fascism. The system either swallows, destroys or corrupts politicians.

These reforms are nto enough, and by their nature, we just have to wait for a republican to come back in and undermine them. Look at the Old Labour Reforms. It all got privatised again. It might come 5 years later, 10, 50. Even the NHS is being attacked now, 60 odd years after it was hailed as one of the greatst acheivments of the left in Britain.

People being ideologically divided, and us not wanting 'to wait' is why I am a revolutionary - because I see the working class is being screwed by capitalism, and I've seen years of elecotralism, entryism, etc all leading to nothing, and I realise that you cannot reform a class system with all its might and aggresion, you can only overthrow it. Why waste time getting behind the figurehead of the capitalist establishment? Its not even his job to make life betetr for the working class. The interests of revolutionaries and working class people and the interests of Obama are completely opposed. Its called class conflict.

We shouldn't waste time and effort pursuing false prophets in the hope they will fix the world or be better than the last ones. We should carry out our historical mission and overthrow capitalism and the state so this endless, mundane and murderous cycle of capitalism finally is ended completely in favour of something alot better.

[NecroCommie]

I don't see how anyone, most of all a lefty, can support taxes when they are used to prop up gigantic for-profit enterprises.

Come here and you know how. As to the taxes supporting big businesses... its a plain lie.

[revolution inaction]

Do you ever wonder why, despite all your efforts put into activism, your cause is going no where? Is it because you envision some form of mini-god to come out and revolutionize everything? Perhaps a more pragmatic approach would help. Obama is the only realistic choice we have in America (you think that guy, Moore, is ever going to get a seat in the House, let alone be elected for president?). He (Obama) is pushing for affordable education (even increased the PELL), for health-care, and for technology. What the hell else do you want, when the nation is divided ideologically (and the system is set up in a way that would inhibit radical change).

Expecting any meaningful change to be brought about by electing different people is not vary realistic is it?
All major changes have been brought about by direct action of some kind.



He won't make a crazy difference but he will take it a step further (remember his first act as president? He's even talking to Chavez and looking to talk to Castro), however small the step is (think back to Dubya and how he fucked it all). At least I'm doing something. You can't boycott it all and hope for it all to evolve.

Why should we be impressed when one bourgeois politician talks to another?

[Yazman]

Right. Who cares about those children who need public education, or that elderly man who needs social security to stay alive? More power to them.

We have the resources to provide education without a monetary system, and without such a system we can do it much more efficiently and to a much higher standard. So yes, taxes are crap.

[Angry Young Man]

lol, the right wing does protests now. I'm even hearing Fox talk about a conservative revolution
Sounds a bit Munich Putsch, doesn't it?

The right have oft protested. A few years ago in the UK, various inbreds, no-chins and associated Upper-Class twits marched on London to defend fox hunting. A comedian at the time said about their coming to London to say about how they don't respect rural life, that someone should mug them, and when they complain about this the mugger should return 'you don't respect the city way of life!' Then there was the whole PAD thing in Thailand last year.

But seriously, Glen Beck is frightening. He's like Jon Stewart only not joking.

[YSR]

We ignore these people at our own risk. I've said earlier in this thread and I think that dismissing them as "nuts" as STJ does here is incredibly foolish. There's nothing insane about them.

[Os Cangaceiros]

We ignore these people at our own risk. I've said earlier in this thread and I think that dismissing them as "nuts" as STJ does here is incredibly foolish. There's nothing insane about them.

Why and how do you think these people are a significant threat?

(Just out of curiousity.)

[Hoxhaist]

Fox News is terrifying they are going to feed the flames of paranoid rightist violence just as Axel Springer's conservative media empire spurred on extreme right violence that killed left wing protesters in West Germany (and caused a leftist response in the RAF)

[YSR]

Rather than repeating myself, I'll point to my post in this very thread. (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1416608&postcount=55)

[Os Cangaceiros]

Haha, my bad, I didn't read the whole thread.

Interesting points.

[Jack]

They had one in my city, 15 people all yelling and whooping down by the docks.

If they have another one I'll show up bearing the old Red and Black.

[Incendiarism]

These protests were totally a grassroots effort

[mykittyhasaboner]

These protests were totally a grassroots effort

Lol.




Lets organize our own tea parties where we actually use the tea!

[pauljpoposky]

However, Obama got his job, not only from big business, but from massive amounts of little donations. I myself donated $20 to his campaign (despite not being a democrat). I think we have to support Obama, especially as part of the left. Many of his policies (investing in technological advancement, increasing Dept of Education budget, health care reform) all are about as much as we can hope for from a president in order to advance our agenda.

I think ABSOLUTELY NOT! I had the pleasure of helping crash a pro-bama "first 100 days" event put on by psuedo-socialists calling for "class unity" and "lets give obama a chance". the man is a capitalist, leading a capitalist party with an open agenda of capitalist, neo-liberal reforms that have nothing at all to do with the needs and interests of working class people like myself. if upper-middle (managerial) class privaleged students want to support obama i say fine, their interests are not ours and he probably is the best thing liberal students could have ever asked for. but working class people and the oppressed are another matter entirely. we should not support obama any more than we should be funneled into these insane "tea-parties". Obama represents the "center" of right-wing politic. He represents capitalism and is NO solution for the needs of working people. He'll really only serve to further the agenda of certain cliques in the ruling class and further de-moralize angry working class voters and activists who put so much faith in his vague "hope" and "change", "yes we can" campaign. I would close by asking "yes we can, WHAT?!?!?" yes we can remain slaves to the interests of a wealthy and powerful self-perpetuating economic minority, as the planet and all the nations of the earth continue to writhe in agony under capitalism? NO, I personally want something better for my children and grandchildren and all the future generations of mankind, and the same old strategies of "lesser-evilism" will NEVER get us to that better world. we need to resist obama's agenda with all the same fire and gusto we bring in resisting the far-right. we wont have an independent working class revolutionary mass party and movement in the country until we break permanently with the democrats and shut out those who insist upon appeasment and negotiation with the slavemasters.

[Kassad]

These protests were totally a grassroots effort

Are you kidding? I mean, I'll give the Ron Paul Presidential campaign its due. These fuckers know how to raise money and they really know how to appeal to youth. I mean, let's be honest with ourselves here. Socialism, communism and anarchism are abhorrent to the 'American Dream,' you could say. Youth, who often times love to rebel, will claim to be some form of socialist just because it's rebellious. I don't notice this so much at my school, since it's a Catholic high school, but it's very noticeable in my community. Either way, the Ron Paul folks managed to pull in a lot of youth support. On the day of the Ohio primary, there were a good 30-40 of them demonstrating on a crowded street corner at 8:00 in the morning with Ron Paul signs. Paul got absolutely butt fucked in Ohio, but it shows they can organize. Paul's new Campaign for Liberty, with its youth branch, Young American for Liberty, are incredibly active and are pulling in members very well. Trust me, I know. I attend all of their meetings.

Regardless, this was not grassroots. This event was propagated by the media like no other. The organization and planning may have been grassroots, but the bourgeoisie were planting the seeds. Grassroots means it is a very tight-knit, centrally-organized event or campaign. Ron Paul did this very well, as shown by the ridiculous amount of Meetup groups that sprung up all over the country. Regardless, if the media is endorsing something, it isn't grassroots. It becomes nationwide and it becomes a very popular thing. Plus, grassroots infers, in my opinion, that there is a central message. I suppose you could say that 'taxes are tyrannical' was a central tenent of these protests, but there were many ideologies at work. One thing Ron Paul libertarians are not afraid to do is unite with those they claim to be their enemies. I mean, I got harassed for holding a sign that said "We Need Jobs and Schools, Not War" at the Tea Party protest in Columbus by Campaign for Liberty volunteers. I mean, it's obvious that they're leaving their central message behind.

I'd say Ron Paul's primary issue that got him national attention was the War in Iraq, which he opposes for all the wrong reasons. When he got in Giuliani's face about the issue, he got widespread media attention and that's when his supporters became known. Ron Paul was the anti-war republican. Regardless, now his supporters have shifted their attention to taxes and government spending and they're totally ignoring the issue that made him popular. That makes it possible for Ron Paul conservatives to work with McCain conservatives with no real regard for their alleged ideological differences. Some of the people on a libertarian online forum in Ohio are now praising Glenn Beck and saying O'Reilly has the right idea, despite their stance on the war in Iraq. This movement will be incredibly influential, especially as time goes on.

I don't think Obama is going to get re-elected and here's why. This economic crisis was not caused by him. It was caused by capitalism and accelerated during the presidency of Reagan. Regardless, people will blame Obama for every single thing that goes wrong right now and this crisis is not going to get better in the near future. It's going to get much worse, which is why I think people in the voting booths in 2012 will blame Obama and likely vote Republican, which could lead to the election of someone like Romney or Jindall. Ron Paul's actually polling pretty well in the polls with Republicans, which scares me even more. This cannot be ignored.

[Al Kaline]

Jindall is an idiot on steroids :\ He is also an opportunist which scares me. He also rejected the aid money which will hurt his state

[Stranger Than Paradise]

I really cannot stand those young middle class liberal with their Obama t-shirts. I'd love to hear these guys talk about how Capitalism gives them individual freedom and then laugh and make them realise they are completely brainwashed.

[Angry Young Man]

We ignore these people at our own risk. I've said earlier in this thread and I think that dismissing them as "nuts" as STJ does here is incredibly foolish. There's nothing insane about them.

I repeat, Glen Beck.

[YSR]

i'm so tired of leftist smartasses, and RR you just made my list, sorry buddy.

Glenn Beck - Yes, we should portray him as insane as much as we can. But the fact is that he's a brilliant propagandist who plays on (mostly white) people's deepest fears about immigration, authoritarianism and secularism. Whether he's insane or not really doesn't mean anything. We could say that any reactionary leader is mentally ill because we think that their logic is so out-of-whack with we consider logical.

That doesn't diminish the fact that he, and other public right-populist figures are our most prominent ideological opponents. The only smart thing that I ever read in a Crimethinc. pamphlet is that fascists and revolutionaries often compete over the same pool of potential recruits.

The resurgent populist libertarianism in the Republican Party and its hangers-on should be analyzed and understood, not simply discarded as "crazy" because we don't agree with it. That's how liberals analyze things, not anti-capitalists.

[Hoxhaist]

These protests were totally a grassroots effort
of course :laugh:
grassroots effort and spontaneous demonstrations organized by Fox News

[Hoxhaist]

We ignore these people at our own risk. I've said earlier in this thread and I think that dismissing them as "nuts" as STJ does here is incredibly foolish. There's nothing insane about them.
They are insane but that doesnt mean we are dismissing them by calling them that. we shouldnt underestimate the power of a hundred thousand insane people to wreak havoc

[Comrade Anarchist]

because of the stupidity of those who oppose obama it makes the ones who oppose him with actual ideas look like dumb asses. Everyone assumes that because we oppose obama we are on the right but we are from the left side and no one is listening because of those idiots from the right taking shouting ignorant statements that excite the media more than our facts.

[GPDP]

because of the stupidity of those who oppose obama it makes the ones who oppose him with actual ideas look like dumb asses. Everyone assumes that because we oppose obama we are on the right but we are from the left side and no one is listening because of those idiots from the right taking shouting ignorant statements that excite the media more than our facts.

This. Oh man, a million times this.

It's gotten harder and harder to criticize Obama when talking to both left-liberals and right-wing conservatives and libertarians. Liberals immediately assume you are the latter, while the latter don't even know what to make of left-wing criticism of Obama. In the end, neither party listens to a word we say.

[Kassad]

Here's the finished piece on the event.

---

There is no sympathy for the devil here. Surrounded by hundreds of men, women and children; all searching for the American Dream. Why do people search for a dream? Does that not suggest that it is only a brief feeling; something that only exists in one’s mind and cannot be physically attained? Maybe that’s the point.

Hundreds of white men, women and children, might I add.

Because let’s be honest. The American Dream is money. There is no other definition to properly portray the consistent search for wealth and the different means of obtaining it. But things like this that don’t exist require one simple thing.

Belief.

If one does not believe in the system they take part in; if one does not subscribe to or support the philosophy, it ceases to exist. If everyone took to the streets and set the Green Devils up in flames, there would be no American Dream. It’s all in your head, and doesn’t that just fuck with you?

This is a rally for the American Dream. The cream of the ‘tradition’ crop, as I like to call them, has gathered here. There’s nothing these people fear more than people waking them up from the American Dream. Pray tell what will happen if science ever allows man to be placed into a dream-like state in which the recipient spends all hours of the day fantasizing about rolling around in a bathtub full of dollar bills; the bathtub being surrounded by a fence that no one else can seem to get through. Of course, they need to work out a few tweaks. If they manage to place a gun and a Bible by the tub, while subsequently replaying videos of the rainforest being cut down, then we will have the ideal solution.

People like to bring signs to their protest that proclaims whatever their heart desires. I don’t think that scares the government, though. Does the President have a team of Secret Service agents who read these signs in pictures, and if they find enough signs with a similar message, he decides to support that ideology? I think people need to come to protests armed.

I need to write these things down at the docks. It would be more fitting.

A lot of people here have decided to wake up in the morning and decide that the Constitution should be taken literally and interpreted strictly. I don’t like that. The Nazis interpreted Mein Kampf strictly. You always need room for change and for development. If humans weren’t open to change, how would we evolve? Maybe people will begin protesting our evolutionary process.

People here are very upset about taxes. There are two very funny messages that can be found in this issue, though.
1)There are a lot of supporters of the multitude of wars and occupations the United States is currently involved in. Shouldn’t it be obvious that wars… cause higher taxes… since they cost money? Maybe I just don’t get it.
2)The Constitution was seen as necessary because the Articles of Confederation were flawed and obsolete. One of the reasons it was obsolete was because it didn’t give states the ability to tax its citizens. So the earliest leaders of the American republic ratified the Constitution. The Constitution was passed so people could be taxed… so doesn’t a strict interpretation infer that taxes should exist? Irony is better than sex.

Quiet, Kassad. You’re a journalist! The news should be objective!

Fuck that. Objective is what you make of it. No matter what you say or how you say it, you are not being objective because objective is an… objective term. Imagine that.

Today is April 15th, 2009. If you’re reading this 100 years from now, I hope you never had to witness this terrible day. Today is tax day. Today is a day when you look at all the zeroes on your bank account before they go away. The number of zeroes in your bank account decides what kind of person you are in this country. That is, unless you only have one zero, which probably means you either got robbed or you’re dead. Conservative activists around the country have dubbed this day a day for the ‘Tea Party Protests.’ This is a reference to the Boston Tea Party in 1773 where colonists in Boston, attempting to protest the newly-enacted tax on tea from England, dumped a massive amount of tea into the Boston Harbor. This was to protest what the colonists dubbed ‘taxation without representation.’

Of course… if you vote for your representatives and consent to staying in the country, aren’t you technically being represented? ‘Quiet, logic. You give your opinion when I ask for it.’

A trademark of the American Revolution is the ‘Don’t Tread on Me’ flag, which is very common throughout the ranks of the swine here at the Ohio Statehouse. Isn’t it amusing how the most privileged are often those who complain about being downtrodden? Do you ever see minorities waving these flags? Of course, this isn’t about logic. This is about one’s control over one’s wallet. I think it’s safe to say that money is the most traded commodity on the face of the planet, but the second it’s placed into one’s hand, it becomes theirs. Even if they give it right back, it was theirs for that brief moment. Even though that money was produced by centuries of labor and strife, it is yours. Not society’s, not the downtrodden man’s. Yours. I hate it here.

“Either take your sign off the stick or go to the sidewalk.” A female police officer tells me and the crowd around me. Bastards. My plan to charge the police officers armed with rifles and tear gas with small pieces of wood: foiled.

Plus, the rat bastards are on horses. I don’t really think horses instill fear into the masses until you see the size of their dicks. As soon as you see a creature with that big of a member being overpowered by someone else, you know that someone means business. Don’t fuck with the police on horses. They’ve harnesses those big-dicked menaces.

“You some sort of dumbass?” Ah, my clarion calls. I don’t turn around.

“I was just wondering, and all, seeing that sign of yours.” Well, shit. My sign. I nearly forgot. I marched into this god-forsaken, intelligence-devoid land with a goddamn sign. It read ‘We Need Jobs and Schools, Not War.’ To no one’s surprise, ignorance did not wait long to pounce on me. Only in this kind of environment can people object to things like schools and jobs. Tyranny, I say!

“Well,” I said. “This is an anti-tax demonstration, correct?”

“Well, anti-taxes and anti-tyranny.” My new friend replied.

“Then why would you be opposed to the idea of cutting military spending which is the primary siphon from the wallets of working Americans?”
“Well, you have to realize that this isn’t about the Democrats or Republicans. It’s both of them. I’ve been a Republican since I was born and I won’t send them a penny anymore.”

Since birth? Was there truly a chance that this man came out of the womb with an NRA membership booklet and a hatred for all things just?

“You have to understand.” He continued. “If we hadn’t gone into Iraq, it would have become a breeding ground for… those types. We would’ve had to go in sooner or later. We can’t allow them to take over the world and commit more acts against us.”

“Well, I disagree.” I said, hoping somehow the tone of my voice would propel this spawn of Satan from my presence. “You can’t claim to be opposed to a steep tax rate and then support the very wars that make that tax level mandatory. Not to mention, Bush was the largest borrower and spender this country has ever seen.”

He laughed. “You take care, there.” He concluded. He patted me on the back. I could use a good, long shower after this.

The environment around me began to get louder. Either more poor intellectuals like me were being subjected to this rampant streak of stupidity, or the event was starting. Someone had taken the stage. I don’t remember what was said. Maybe I don’t want to. The speaker, surrounded by signs proclaiming Barack Obama’s socialist tendencies, advocacy for the unification of Christianity and the government and opposition to the very taxes that funded the ground we were standing on, began informing the crowd that America was a Christian nation. She also proclaimed her idolization of former President Ronald Reagan. For those of you who may not know, Ronald Reagan had Alzheimer’s disease and he was a die-hard conservative. Shouldn’t that tell you something about his political ideology? ‘Logic! Again with this shit!’

Ah, here it comes. The ever-popular patriotic display of love for America, its ideas and the morals it was founded on. The USA chant. This is the point in which popular phrases such as the common use of the word ‘terrorist’ and ‘socialist’ become popular, along with the ever-popular conclusion, ‘God bless America.’ Of course, every nation in the world has people praying for God to bless their nation. If God blessed ours, would that not mean he was choosing favorites? Doesn’t he claim to love all of us equally? Stay with me now. I know how hard it is to interpret things logically in today’s America.

You know? All these people could be reading a book right now. If someone read a book every time conservatives publicly proclaimed their message of hate, we would’ve probably discovered how to make dogs speak Pig Latin, while simultaneously writing the script to Hamlet.

Where was I? Oh, right. Well, the ‘USA’ chant started and echoed throughout the surrounding area. Maybe I just couldn’t take it anymore. Maybe I’m allergic to patriotism. Whatever the reason, I slowly walked back to my car. As I left the parking garage, I knew I would have to drive by one last time and witness the atrocity of logic that was the Columbus Tea Party protest. I decided to stay calm and quiet as I drove by.

...

Really? Does that sound like me? The obnoxious horn from my Pontiac Grand Prix echoed across the street. The protestors cheered, happy to see they had a supporter. I smiled. As my middle finger stood resolute, I thought about what I had learned today. I couldn’t really recall.

Ah, I remember. It's just a ride.

---

[Hoxhaist]

the problem with Obama is that people think his policies ARE socialist because Hannity says so. the ignorance of some even reaches a level of equating socialism with fascism cause they just dont know the difference

[GPDP]

I lol'd. Nice report, Kassad.

[pauljpoposky]

It will be our great mistake if we underestimate these "tea-baggers" as just a bunch of crazies. regardless of who they are or how the media portrays them or who is funding and organizing them, the point is that they ARE getting organized to oppose Obama and WE, the american Left, are not organized to oppose the neo-liberal capitalist agenda of Obamamania. Sectarianism is at an all time high amongst the left organizations; sure there are a few tiny "united fronts" popping up here and there but none that has a mass appeal that is decisively independent of the Democratic party and openly advocates socialist ideas. we're still fighting it out amongst our own ranks whether or not to support obama, critically support obama, or outright oppose obama and his party... I prefer the last option, myself. but then again, I actually want my children or my grandchildren and their entire generation across the world to actually inherit a better world than the one my generation did, and Im not willing to stumble down the same path to oblivion the movement has taken generation after generation before.

I am interested in working with anyone at all who really believes in bottom up socialism, democratic workers control (real democracy, not stalinist/maoist bureaucracy/dictatorship) of the workers, by the workers and for the workers and the all of the oppressed. if that means united fronts, GREAT! if that means "building the ones and twos" ok, fine, whatever. If that means mass work, AWESOME! but we need to get the movement moving again and by me that means organizing together and arguing about the finer points of theory or whether the CCCP was x,y, or z later AFTER we've worked ourselves to help ensure that the masses win some REAL power for the workers. If we don't make good this opportunity, rest assured the far right will; they already are.

[Psy]

It will be our great mistake if we underestimate these "tea-baggers" as just a bunch of crazies. regardless of who they are or how the media portrays them or who is funding and organizing them, the point is that they ARE getting organized to oppose Obama and WE, the american Left, are not organized to oppose the neo-liberal capitalist agenda of Obamamania. Sectarianism is at an all time high amongst the left organizations; sure there are a few tiny "united fronts" popping up here and there but none that has a mass appeal that is decisively independent of the Democratic party and openly advocates socialist ideas. we're still fighting it out amongst our own ranks whether or not to support obama, critically support obama, or outright oppose obama and his party... I prefer the last option, myself. but then again, I actually want my children or my grandchildren and their entire generation across the world to actually inherit a better world than the one my generation did, and Im not willing to stumble down the same path to oblivion the movement has taken generation after generation before.

I am interested in working with anyone at all who really believes in bottom up socialism, democratic workers control (real democracy, not stalinist/maoist bureaucracy/dictatorship) of the workers, by the workers and for the workers and the all of the oppressed. if that means united fronts, GREAT! if that means "building the ones and twos" ok, fine, whatever. If that means mass work, AWESOME! but we need to get the movement moving again and by me that means organizing together and arguing about the finer points of theory or whether the CCCP was x,y, or z later AFTER we've worked ourselves to help ensure that the masses win some REAL power for the workers. If we don't make good this opportunity, rest assured the far right will; they already are.
It is nothing more a petit-bourgeoisie movement sponsored by the bourgeoisie. The US industrial proletariat feels totally alienated from the right wing as the right wing is blaming workers for the economic crisis (for example attacking labor unions and openly claiming industrial workers are overpaid in the US). The only reason why the industrial proletariat are not mobilizing against the right is they are too busy dealing with their own problems as in the US industrial workers are facing a massive crisis of massive layoffs across most industries.

[Comrade Anarchist]

One very unfortunate thing about this event is that the people at theses tea parties and watching hannity and glen beck are the WORKERS of this country. The blue collar worker the man who is used day in and day out by the rich is now protesting on the side of the rich and in full ignorance of his own situation so i think that this hurts us more than obama

[Psy]

One very unfortunate thing about this event is that the people at theses tea parties and watching hannity and glen beck are the WORKERS of this country. The blue collar worker the man who is used day in and day out by the rich is now protesting on the side of the rich and in full ignorance of his own situation so i think that this hurts us more than obama

I didn't see this, from what I seen the tea parties are very hostile to industrial workers as the issue of unions divides them into two camps hostile to each other.

[Rusty Shackleford]

I didn't see this, from what I seen the tea parties are very hostile to industrial workers as the issue of unions divides them into two camps hostile to each other.

by sicking workers onto workers over unionization and politics in general, the bourgeoisie will continue to dominate their lives.

[Psy]

by sicking workers onto workers over unionization and politics in general, the bourgeoisie will continue to dominate their lives.
The point is that the right-wing can't mobilize the industrial proletariat on their side due to them viciously attacking the industrial proletariat.

[AvanteRedGarde]

What industrial proletariat are you talking about. Something less than 20% of the American workforce is in the productive sector.

[Psy]

What industrial proletariat are you talking about. Something less than 20% of the American workforce is in the productive sector.

Encase you didn't notice making money from nothing didn't workout for the capitalists meaning that 20% currently are the only workers creating value in the USA.

[Enragé]

not only industrial workers create value. Try having a modern economy without schools, bus drivers etc.

[Psy]

not only industrial workers create value. Try having a modern economy without schools, bus drivers etc.
Both teachers and bus drivers are unionized, yet that is beside the point. This crisis has the entire capitalist market contracting, international trade is in free fall as is internal production. This means the US won't be able to import much in the future meaning the capitalist system in the US will eventually grind to a halt if the US doesn't jump start its industrial sector to it can produce commodities for market both internally and externally.

[pauljpoposky]

It is nothing more a petit-bourgeoisie movement sponsored by the bourgeoisie. The US industrial proletariat feels totally alienated from the right wing as the right wing is blaming workers for the economic crisis (for example attacking labor unions and openly claiming industrial workers are overpaid in the US). The only reason why the industrial proletariat are not mobilizing against the right is they are too busy dealing with their own problems as in the US industrial workers are facing a massive crisis of massive layoffs across most industries.

I disagree with your analysis and would counter that yours is exactly the stance which we need to be cautious of. I came up in a blue-collar union family and community and I would tend to agree more with ComradeMarx when he said: (sorry, I dont know how to place more than one quote in a post)

"One very unfortunate thing about this event is that the people at theses tea parties and watching hannity and glen beck are the WORKERS of this country. The blue collar worker the man who is used day in and day out by the rich is now protesting on the side of the rich and in full ignorance of his own situation so i think that this hurts us more than obama"

I think that the reality on the ground, the true objective conditions, are not jiving with the theory-heavy ideas of some of our comrades and that this is a real problem for us on the left. Instead of trying to understand history and theory IN CONTEXT many of us are blindly quoting past revolutionaries and trying to apply the past to the present without fully UNDERSTANDING context or present objective conditions. The proletariat, to which I proudly belong, will not necessarily come around to our ideas just because they find themselves suffering under a crisis, especially if the left refuses to recognize the gravity of the threat posed by the far right; libertarian, racist and pseudo-fascist elements. I know a multitude of good, hard-working proletarians; people in my father's community who most certainly are not and never will be anything resembling bourgeoisie or petit bourgeoisie, but because the far right is getting quite nicely organized and getting plenty of coverage from the center-reactionary-right (FOX, Rep. Party, Murdoch, ect) and they are positioning themselves, falsely but effectively, as the only real opposition to Obama, my father's proletarian neighbors and friends are seriously buying in despite the fact that the far right DOES NOT in ANY WAY represent their interests. I organize mostly in blue-collar communities, working class (not as much around universities and trendy-hipster haunts) communities and I can tell you with certainty that many of the average working people who voted for Obama for "hope" or "change" are becoming curious and being attracted to these "tea-bag parties" as a voice of opposition. As a working class organizer and a dedicated socialist revolutionary I am deeply concerned about these developments and Im getting tired of the ideological bickering and retreats to the "big tent" Democrats that have helped hold back our movement and sabotage attempts at unity, united fronts and mass movement for decades.
I think it is of the utmost importance that we take this threat seriously and meet it, organize and get our criticism of Obama out in the open in full opposition to both the far right and, MOST IMPORTANTLY, to Obama and the Dems so that the working class sees a real alternative, then we can chose what is and isnt in our interests. the problem is that we arent really hearing much from the left except the same old line "lets critically give the Dems a chance just one more time"...

[Psy]

I disagree with your analysis and would counter that yours is exactly the stance which we need to be cautious of. I came up in a blue-collar union family and community and I would tend to agree more with ComradeMarx when he said: (sorry, I dont know how to place more than one quote in a post)

"One very unfortunate thing about this event is that the people at theses tea parties and watching hannity and glen beck are the WORKERS of this country. The blue collar worker the man who is used day in and day out by the rich is now protesting on the side of the rich and in full ignorance of his own situation so i think that this hurts us more than obama"

I think that the reality on the ground, the true objective conditions, are not jiving with the theory-heavy ideas of some of our comrades and that this is a real problem for us on the left. Instead of trying to understand history and theory IN CONTEXT many of us are blindly quoting past revolutionaries and trying to apply the past to the present without fully UNDERSTANDING context or present objective conditions. The proletariat, to which I proudly belong, will not necessarily come around to our ideas just because they find themselves suffering under a crisis, especially if the left refuses to recognize the gravity of the threat posed by the far right; libertarian, racist and pseudo-fascist elements. I know a multitude of good, hard-working proletarians; people in my father's community who most certainly are not and never will be anything resembling bourgeoisie or petit bourgeoisie, but because the far right is getting quite nicely organized and getting plenty of coverage from the center-reactionary-right (FOX, Rep. Party, Murdoch, ect) and they are positioning themselves, falsely but effectively, as the only real opposition to Obama, my father's proletarian neighbors and friends are seriously buying in despite the fact that the far right DOES NOT in ANY WAY represent their interests. I organize mostly in blue-collar communities, working class (not as much around universities and trendy-hipster haunts) communities and I can tell you with certainty that many of the average working people who voted for Obama for "hope" or "change" are becoming curious and being attracted to these "tea-bag parties" as a voice of opposition. As a working class organizer and a dedicated socialist revolutionary I am deeply concerned about these developments and Im getting tired of the ideological bickering and retreats to the "big tent" Democrats that have helped hold back our movement and sabotage attempts at unity, united fronts and mass movement for decades.
I think it is of the utmost importance that we take this threat seriously and meet it, organize and get our criticism of Obama out in the open in full opposition to both the far right and, MOST IMPORTANTLY, to Obama and the Dems so that the working class sees a real alternative, then we can chose what is and isnt in our interests. the problem is that we arent really hearing much from the left except the same old line "lets critically give the Dems a chance just one more time"...

I am a unemployed factory worker and still in touch with my ex co-workers. Most have gotten even more cynical toward capitalists and managers not less and argues with everyone that defends the capitalists and managers. They have also taken huge offence to the right saying union workers are lazy and overpaid and it didn't really take me much effort to get my ex co-worker worked up by saying the right wing represents management and those traitors that side with the mangers.

[pauljpoposky]

I am a unemployed factory worker and still in touch with my ex co-workers. Most have gotten even more cynical toward capitalists and managers not less and argues with everyone that defends the capitalists and managers. They have also taken huge offence to the right saying union workers are lazy and overpaid and it didn't really take me much effort to get my ex co-worker worked up by saying the right wing represents management and those traitors that side with the mangers.

I appreciate that your co-workers are becoming radicalized and militant, what I am cautioning is that not all workers are favoring the left because we arent in every factory and every workplace, however, the right is on tv for anyone who wants to tune in. I am saying that if we dont take these far right wingers seriously and actively work to counter them and organize our own LEFT opposition to Obama then there are certain workers across the country who will and already are turning to these tea parties because they are looking for a voice of opposition and the tea parties appear to be the only game in town.

[Psy]

I appreciate that your co-workers are becoming radicalized and militant, what I am cautioning is that not all workers are favoring the left because we arent in every factory and every workplace, however, the right is on tv for anyone who wants to tune in. I am saying that if we dont take these far right wingers seriously and actively work to counter them and organize our own LEFT opposition to Obama then there are certain workers across the country who will and already are turning to these tea parties because they are looking for a voice of opposition and the tea parties appear to be the only game in town.

I find the right being on TV very counter-productive for them. I can't image anyone in the rust belt agreeing with the right-wing view that trade unions are to blame for the massive lay-offs and that industrial workers in the USA are overpaid and lazy. Add the fact that many industries are racially integrated, with the right it openly racist and I just don't see the industrial workers in the US siding with the right. I mean how many black workers in major industrial cities are ever going to side with the racist right wing against their fellow workers?

Now I agree we have to organize the workers but I just don't see the right being able to mobilize them with their current tactics.

[pauljpoposky]

I find the right being on TV very counter-productive for them. I can't image anyone in the rust belt agreeing with the right-wing view that trade unions are to blame for the massive lay-offs and that industrial workers in the USA are overpaid and lazy. Add the fact that many industries are racially integrated, with the right it openly racist and I just don't see the industrial workers in the US siding with the right. I mean how many black workers in major industrial cities are ever going to side with the racist right wing against their fellow workers?

Now I agree we have to organize the workers but I just don't see the right being able to mobilize them with their current tactics.

I agree that most industrial workers in the rust belt will not side with the far right, though there will always be some with conservative ideas who will be drawn to the tea-parties because they appear to offer the lone voice of dissent to the neo-lib agenda and policies of Obama Inc. I must say, and I often have to point this out in debate with some of my own comrades locally, industrial workers do not make up the majority of the workforce in the us, neither do union workers, and it is important that we not limit our scope, vision or strategy exclusively to industrial, trade, crafts, or union laborers generally. Limiting ourselves thus we actually exclude a huge layer of the working class. It is a historic problem, I think, within many of the tendencies of our movement that I frequently point out and rather enjoy debating with those who favor the limited strategy. I think it is something we must overcome to reach a much broader range of the working class.

I would like to point out that while the Republican party and FOX are most certainly trying to capitalize on these demos, and across the country the Republicans are trying to co-opt this Tea Party phenomenon, it is not entirely a creation of the Republican Party but in some cases was initiated, as in St. Louis and many other towns and cities across the country, by Libertarians, Constitutionalists and other far-right groups.

Yes, the base of the Libertarian and Constitutionalist parties is primarily bourgeoisie, petit bourgeoisie, white, propertied (in MO often inherited property), and often racist and/or sexist, homophobic, anti-immigrant, and anti-union/anti-worker, and sometimes associated with christian-identity or even anti-semetic/white-power groups. Many of those that form the base of these organizations and first helped organized the very first, small tea party events like those held a few months back on the historic Arch Riverfront here in StL are some of the same loonies that got involved in all that "Ron Paul Revolution" nonsense last year.

However I must point out, being as I personally know coworkers (blue collar, poverty wage workers) neighbors (again, blue collar, low income, not all of them white) and friends of the family who are being drawn toward looking at this Tea Party nonsense (and yes, I am talking to them and trying to sway them, questioning my friends and sharing with them a socialist analysis of the crisis and criticizing Obama while offering forward ideas for transitional demands instead); many of them are doing so because they are looking for a voice of opposition to Obama (though most who I know voted FOR Obama in Nov.) and they perceive it to be somehow "separate" from the Republicans who my friends though they were voting against when they elected Obama last year. Many of the people I know who are talking about this, at least out here in MO, seem to be looking for any other alternative to Obama, the Dems and the Republicans. This frustration has proven quite the opportunity for organizing for the Workers International Legue (IMT) and other anti-Democrat, anti-capitalist Left groups in as we've had a veritable storm of local contacts this year; overwhelmingly working class people who at the very least want to know more about our ideas.

As for auto workers, I know plenty out here in StL, both retired and active. MOST absolutely would not for a second consider the anti-union, anti worker far-right to be any sort of alternative to Obamamania, and there has been plenty of frustration with Obama expressed by our production workers out here especially in light of his weak "support" for EFCA and his recent calls for "shared sacrifice" from workers and further concessions from the UAW, which I am certain Gettelfinger and his fellow apparatchiks will be more than happy to oblidge (all in the name of the workers, but not in their interests), so that the auto industry can become "viable" again. More than a few of these are paying very close attention to Mr. Geitner and Emmanuel's cautious confessions that even when the economy "turns around" we are going to keep on hemoraging jobs and that many of those already lost are NEVER coming back. I know for certain that many workers are absolutely outraged out here in StL by the proposed 9 week (!) summer production shutdowns at auto plants and parts suppliers across the nation.

I suppose my main point is that while these tea party events are being organized by far-rightwingers and strategically utilized by the right-wing political and media elite at FOX and within the Republican and, now it seems to a much lesser extent, Libertarian parties, and while their media exposure might do a whole lot more to hurt the FAR RIGHT in this country, it will do nothing but strengthen the center right in Obama and the Dems or turn many people off altogether as they are further demoralized by the jobs economy continuing to circle the drain and costs of living skyrocketing even further once the capitalist economy gets "back on track" for the investors and bankers. I am concerned that if we on the Left don't get our acts together we'll see more and more people becoming demoralized, turning to the far right appeals to populist outrage as the only apparent alternative to the Dems and Reps (a ready made fascist movement?) or resigning to the ill-logic of the big tent; "lets give obama a chance" or "i dont like what he's doing, but at least obama is trying to do SOMETHING" notions that I have encountered plenty of going door to door in the recent local election cycle here in StL.

we have a golden opportunity here and many are finding us, on the left, on their own. others are being radicalized and recruited by Leftist friends and coworkers who are keen to criticize obamamania and the far-right reaction for what they are, two sides of the same coin (capitalist exploitation), ultimately capable of nothing more than the same old exploitation. I am however quite concerned by some of our comrades tendency to brush off these reactionary far-right rallies as "just a bunch of loonies, racists and far rightwing-petit bourgeoisie nutjobs" or "entirely organized by FOX and the republican party" (a view frequently expressed by liberal capitalist media tools Maddow and Olberman, who I try very hard NOT to watch) when clearly they are attracting some non-racist non-redneck layers of the working class and those are people who really should be getting involved with US instead. It also concerns me that so many of our comrades on the LEFT in many of the sects have oncemore bought into the notion of supporting Obama or, at least, defending his party and policies against the attacks (often racist) of the far-right. In supporting or even defending Obama we weaken our own position and utterly fail to get across genuine revolutionary, socialist ideas for the upending and transformation of society.

Comrades, we've been down this road so many times before, it hasn't taken the movement anywhere but into degeneration, petty reformism and ruin, as can be seen in the history of working class struggle in any country in the past two centuries; the notion of the popular front leads us to defeat because it includes contradictory class interests, the liberal bourgeoisie, for whom we always wind up bending over backward to avoid offending. I say its time for a different strategy, something perhaps more akin to what worked for the Bolsheviks nearly a century ago but updated for today. We need mass organization and mobilization of the workers, by the workers (not apparatchiks) and for the workers in the interests of the workers (not the petit bourgeoisie or liberal capitalist interests) in order to free all the oppressed. The Bolshevik Party, of by and for the workers, lead parts of the peasantry and had a short-lived victory in Russia in which more progressive change was accomplished in the first six months to a year of workers power than in all the history of capitalist "progressives" in all the world. Nevermind that the revolution degenerated and was defeated, another topic for another time, in its first year it was truly revolutionary and progressive. Imagine what we could do today in a nation, a world where workers make up a vastly larger portion of society than they did in 1917 Russia...

However, I fear that if we do what we spent much of the 90's doing, arguing over theory an history and even telling people they should support the Dems, a capitalist party, as some sort of "lesser of two evils", I dont think we will have fulfilled our role as vanguards of the working class and agitators for a mass movement if we're only agitating within our own ranks. I appreciate anyone at all (PSY) who is pursuing a strategy of organizing and agitating within the working class, offering a socialist critique and analysis and offering transitional demands instead of telling people to support the Dems (who I think plenty of people already know and already knew are not a "party of the people" but rather a "party of the RICH people"). I really do appreciate that you have been able to agitate with industrial workers, PSY.

I just hope that more of our comrades can make an example for each other and get some sort of UNITED FRONT together with and within organized labor to break once and for all with the Dems and give ALL workers a real alternative which represents our actual class interests, and which can organize the vast majority of workers and mobilize them to action; be they industrial, trade, craft, service, union or non-union workers. I dont really think we can give ALL workers a real opportunity to freely join a union without recrimination until we in organized labor completely break with the Dems and form a mass party of our own, lead and democratically run by the rank and file. I think we need to be in the factories, in the workplace, in the communities where we live, where working class people live, having exactly this conversation, like PSY has done in their workplace. And as PSY pointed out before, people are hopping mad about all that is going on right now, from the crisis to the existing - long term attacks the working class has suffered for decades - to the Obama "solution" to the crisis. It all starts with reaching the workers, talking to us, and presenting a real alternative instead of more-of the same Liberal nonsense about "compassionate capitalism".

[Psy]

Prior to the crisis most workers while cynical toward management for the most part wanted to keep their head down and try to get by. The crisis has changed that as the crisis it taking away the low expatiation of low paid workers through lay-offs and lowering wages even further to the point the lowest paid factory and warehouse workers are fully aware they won't be able to afford to pay for the basics (rent, food, bus pass,ect) if their wages get slashed much more. The tea bagger slogan of they don't want to pay for the neighbours mortgage doesn't connect with the plight of these workers as they don't have mortgages (they have rent) and at this point they are not too proud to except hand outs epically those laid-off.

Of course I do agree that we do need to organize workers.

[Code]

Of corse we need to orginize the workers! That is the strength of most revolutions! But Fox already owns the "little man" (ex: joe plummer) We need to INFORM! I say we set up guerilla radio stations, they can't shut us down cause it's "a time of war acknowledged by the president"! The attention's been drawn off things that matter via the slogan of "hope"

[Dean]

Do you ever wonder why, despite all your efforts put into activism, your cause is going no where? Is it because you envision some form of mini-god to come out and revolutionize everything? Perhaps a more pragmatic approach would help. Obama is the only realistic choice we have in America (you think that guy, Moore, is ever going to get a seat in the House, let alone be elected for president?). He (Obama) is pushing for affordable education (even increased the PELL), for health-care, and for technology. What the hell else do you want, when the nation is divided ideologically (and the system is set up in a way that would inhibit radical change).


He won't make a crazy difference but he will take it a step further (remember his first act as president? He's even talking to Chavez and looking to talk to Castro), however small the step is (think back to Dubya and how he fucked it all). At least I'm doing something. You can't boycott it all and hope for it all to evolve.

Obama is a reactionary turd (http://www.revleft.com/vb/obama-plans-close-t106082/index.html) and so are you.

[Verix]

After watching some of the news clips of the rallies, they basically looked like KKK rallies but without the hoods.

Didn't see one single minority in all the crowds!!!!

i have a friend who went to one in oklahoma city and he said there was a guy with a boothe called "confederate joe" and he was just selling a bunch of confederate crap and he was making alot of money too.......

[The Hong Se Sun]

I think we leftist need to start showing up to these protest and PEACEFULLY show our opposition.

[NecroCommie]

What the fuck!? When they are inside, sneak to the door and lock it. Afterwards set the place on fire and sodomize the agonizing bodies. :cool:

And if the hypothetical cops do not recognize black humour, then they too deserve to die.

[Holden Caulfield]

^
not funny, dont make any rape jokes please

[revolution inaction]

^
not funny, dont make any rape jokes please

but joking about burning people alive is cool :thumbup: