The BNP leadership are not Nazis....

[Holden Caulfield]

They just enjoy being 'seig heiled' at....


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_XLxL5xIl-m8/SeIhWkmC7OI/AAAAAAAAB3E/Lh0RijYaK-8/s320/bnp_header_1204_34745a.jpg (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_XLxL5xIl-m8/SeIhWkmC7OI/AAAAAAAAB3E/Lh0RijYaK-8/s1600-h/bnp_header_1204_34745a.jpg)


This chilling picture shows BNP deputy leader Simon Darby being given a NAZI SALUTE at a fascist rally.

Three extremists flashed the banned Hitler-style sign to the British far-right boss outside the event in Italy. Our exclusive snap fuels fears of danger ahead as the British National Party gains popularity in the recession.

Last night Labour MP Jon Cruddas said: "This shows the BNP are a gang of thugs parading as politicians."

NotW (http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/news/258860/BNP-deputy-leader-Simon-Darby-is-given-a-NAZI-SALUTE-at-a-fascist-rally-in-Italy-British-National-Party.html)

Anyone doubting the danger of the BNP should look no further than the straight-arm salutes greeting deputy leader Simon Darby at a meeting in Mussolini's old stamping ground.

Darby is leading his party's drive for votes in June's Euro elections - and they may win up to three seats. Giving them the right to stick their snouts in a money-trough that could fund yet more of their bile.

Labour's deputy leader Harriet Harman is right to warn that the BNP "are a bigger threat than ever." And on polling day, they will rely on the apathy of mainstream voters. So on June 4 remember these salutes. Use your vote wisely. And keep the BNP out of Brussels.

Taken From Lancaster Unity (http://lancasteruaf.blogspot.com/)

[lurcherman]

what ever griffen may say the BNP are nazis and should be hung

[Holden Caulfield]

what ever griffen may say the BNP are nazis and should be hung

The rank and file of the BNP i have more hope for, remember that the majority of BNP support comes from disillusioned working class folk who see no other alternative and who were stabbed in the back by the Labour Party.

That said the leadership, and some elements in the BNP are neo-nazis/fascists, and the whole swap from boots to suits does seem rather similar to the NSDAP's change from street politics to parlimentary politics after the failure of the Munich Putsch (& Kapp Putsch, maybe.)

[Rjevan]

This reminds me of a case when a NPD member did the Hitler salute and afterwards the police said they had to clear "if this was really a Hitler salute. Things aren't that obvious, the man could have also pointed out the way to someone, you see." Yeah, I'm sure all the Nazis in the 30s and 40s just wanted to point out Hitler the way to the next toilet. :rolleyes:

[Holden Caulfield]

^ its the normal response, they said the same thing when Di Canio gave the old 'straight arm' to a bunch of swastika waving Lazio fans.

[Killfacer]

The rank and file of the BNP i have more hope for, remember that the majority of BNP support comes from disillusioned working class folk who see no other alternative and who were stabbed in the back by the Labour Party.

That said the leadership, and some elements in the BNP are neo-nazis/fascists, and the whole swap from boots to suits does seem rather similar to the NSDAP's change from street politics to parlimentary politics after the failure of the Munich Putsch (& Kapp Putsch, maybe.)

I could have just said thanks, but i feel i should say more.

This is a fucking excellent post.

[teenagebricks]

I must say I'm pleasantly surprised that The News Of The World are actually running this story.

[Vanguard1917]

I must say I'm pleasantly surprised that The News Of The World are actually running this story.

It's not very suprising at all, seeing as the BNP is the one political phenomenon that the entire British establishment can rally against to make itself look good in comparison. However, despite the establishment's hysterical over-reaction to the 'BNP threat', the reality is that the BNP is pretty much an irrelavence in British politics and society, and the spread of reactionary political ideas in society is principally the responsibility of the mainstream political and media establishment itself.

[h0m0revolutionary]

It's not very suprising at all, seeing as the BNP is the one political phenomenon that the entire British establishment can rally against to make itself look good in comparison. Despite the establishment's hysterical over-reaction to the 'BNP threat', the reality is that the BNP is pretty much an irrelavence in British politics and society, and the spread of reactionary political ideas in society is principally the responsibility of the mainstream political and cultural establishment itself.

I don't think it's wise to be so dismissive, the New Statesman in 2006 showed that 1 in 5 Britains would consider voting far right and that up to 40% of Britains think immigration is one of the most important factors influencing their vote. Even more recently a YouGov poll indicated that 7% of voters are willing to "back" the BNP.

The BNP are not an irrelivence, yes the current political establishment echo their concerns about immigration, causes racial tensions and implements some of the most shocking border control detention centres in the world. But the BNP would be worse.

Our job as revolutionaries to to link the anti-fascist struggle with the class struggle and show how liberal democracy in a time of crisis reverts to the arguments of fascism to maintain a divided and docile working class.

The BNP are set to do well in the coming period, they have their first member of the Greater London Assembly, 46 councillers nationally and many more memebrs of Parish Councils, they look set to do well in 2009 General election in the constitency of Barking and Dagenham and are on course to secure their first Member of the European Parliament later this year.

There can be no complacency, anti-fascism can never be sidelined because whilst we as revolutionaries acknowledge thatt he current political order are more of an enemy to our class at the present time, there can be no room for us to wait til there is a resurgence in fascism to start combatting it.

We don't need to wait until fascism is on the rise to start impeding it, if we don't strangle it now we'll pay with our revolution in the future.

[Vanguard1917]

I don't think it's wise to be so dismissive, the New Statesman in 2006 showed that 1 in 5 Britains would consider voting far right and that up to 40% of Britains think immigration is one of the most important factors influencing their vote. Even more recently a YouGov poll indicated that 7% of voters are willing to "back" the BNP.

There's your answer. The central policy on which the BNP's support rests is its strong opposition to immigration. What is the cause of anti-immigration sentiment in society? Is it the BNP, or is it other, mainstream political forces in society?

The suggestion that the establishment is 'echoing' BNP supporters gets things the wrong way around. In reality, people who sympathise with the BNP are merely taking the anti-immigrant arguments of the establishment itself to their logical, more 'radical' conclusions.



The BNP are set to do well in the coming period, they have their first member of the Greater London Assembly, 46 councillers nationally and many more memebrs of Parish Councils, they look set to do well in 2009 General election in the constitency of Barking and Dagenham and are on course to secure their first Member of the European Parliament later this year.



Despite hysterical state response and media coverage at every election time, the BNP's success at elections has been very minimal. The BNP may have 46 councillors, but out of 22,000 that is mere 0.21 percent of the total. Its success at general elections has also been very small.

It's true that the BNP can benefit from mainstream opposition to immigration. But that opposition is created by the mainstream elite, not by the BNP. If we want to stop tiny groups like the BNP growing in size, we need to challenge the mainstream forces which fuel sympathy (however small) for groups on the far-right. Turning the BNP into a bogeyman and exaggerating its influence is not the answer.

[Hoxhaist]

its horrifying that people dont learn from history, or the right people anyway. The BNP has taken full advantage of this crisis and the people who will end of suffering for it is UK

[lylt]

Remember though, as the BNP grows in size, anti-fascist movements are bound to grow at the same time. I doubt that immigrants, or indeed, any right thinking people would stand by and let them goosestep into a position of power.

And as for the various statistics being pulled, why are we worried if 7% of Britons would back the BNP? Does that mean 93% do not want the BNP in?

Any gains met by the BNP will result in a dramatic increase in anti-fascist action, sympathy and support. We shouldn't be worried about these blockheads, they should be worried about us. We are in the position of power, at this time, and we should use it to eliminate the fascist "threat" before it grows too strong.

[Hoxhaist]

thats true, the British people did stand up before WWII and crush the fascist sympathizers in Britain (it seems like that will become necessary again soon enough)

[Melbourne Lefty]

Simon Darby is not a nazi.

Sorry guys...

He is a racist sure, but he is not a nazi. The Forza Nuova kids who are giving him "the salute" are not nazis either, they are dyed in the wool neo-fascists in the Mussolini trend who have been "educated" by Roberto Fiore.

The Italian stream of Neo-fascism is practically unique, its not nazism, its an italian thing.

In a class analysis it may do exactly the same this as nazism, but NOTW is just trying to prove that it is not "racist" [in the very same issue the editorial stated that all immigration should be stopped, or words to that effect].

I want to know why the BNP seem to be meeting up with groups like the NPD and FN who they once would have shunned in their effort to "popularise".

Perhaps they feel more confident than before?

[Holden Caulfield]

Simon Darby is not a nazi
You should know better than to assume we think he is a direct follower of the NSDAP. Yes; it was a cheap shot to call them nazis but it was rather obviously (so i thought) tounge in cheek.

We know who owns the NOTW and we know its full of shit as well.

We know the old straight arm is the Italian thing, Roman salute and all that, and we know the Nazis nicked it, we know their arguments for defending what they do etc. However the fact that the BNP second in command meets these people, receives a salute of which we all know the connotations and, as you said, meets other fascist groups such as FN, NDP etc shows what kind of party leadership they have.

The BNP leadership are fascists/neo-nazis/coorperatists/whatever, again I will stress: it is their role in relation to the class struggle, the labour force & bosses, etc that makes them our 'enemy' not the fact they may or may not wear red armbands with swastikas, have 'SS' tattoos or seig heil each other.

The purpose of posting this articles is to give the whole "look at his friends and know the man" kinda message. Not to go all UAF and state, with a stern face and a lack of humor, that the BNP are all really clones of Hitler made in Brazil shortly after WW2.

[Sasha]

I don't think it's wise to be so dismissive,
[.....]
We don't need to wait until fascism is on the rise to start impeding it, if we don't strangle it now we'll pay with our revolution in the future.

same here, remember the fairy tales you got told about the free and liberal and peacefull multicultural netherlands?
not that they where ever realy true but it got horibly worse in a very short time.
political-scientists always gave the extreme right an max vote of about 5%, in ample 8 years we are now looking at MP Wilders his "party" (crypto fascist extreme right populist) being projected to become the biggest party with over 20% of the votes @ the next elections. :scared:

[Pogue]

You should know better than to assume we think he is a direct follower of the NSDAP. Yes; it was a cheap shot to call them nazis but it was rather obviously (so i thought) tounge in cheek.

We know who owns the NOTW and we know its full of shit as well.

We know the old straight arm is the Italian thing, Roman salute and all that, and we know the Nazis nicked it, we know their arguments for defending what they do etc. However the fact that the BNP second in command meets these people, receives a salute of which we all know the connotations and, as you said, meets other fascist groups such as FN, NDP etc shows what kind of party leadership they have.

The BNP leadership are fascists/neo-nazis/coorperatists/whatever, again I will stress: it is their role in relation to the class struggle, the labour force & bosses, etc that makes them our 'enemy' not the fact they may or may not wear red armbands with swastikas, have 'SS' tattoos or seig heil each other.

The purpose of posting this articles is to give the whole "look at his friends and know the man" kinda message. Not to go all UAF and state, with a stern face and a lack of humor, that the BNP are all really clones of Hitler made in Brazil shortly after WW2.

I think in order to have appeal and also to make sense our opposition to the BNP has to be more from a class based 'fascists are the armed thugs of capitalism'. This argument breaks down when faced with liberal democracies opposed to fascism and the BNP, as I'm sure some bourgeoisie politicians genuinely do dislike the BNP and want to see them stamped out.

Also, it isn't relevant to most people who don't understand that. I oppose the BNP mainly because they divide the working class and I just generally despise racism. The thought of those types being in power, a position of strength, well, it just generally sickens me because like most people, I have asian friends, black friends etc and I have a personal moral and also intellectual opposition to the BNP. My class based analysis of them is that they divide the working class along lines of colour or ethnicity which weakens us as a class. Also theres the physical manifestations of fascism which is absolutely detest, such as deportations through to concerntration/extermination camps and gas chambers.

I think only analysing them as the more violent final manifestation of capitalism is unreliable. Although they do act to defend class interests, thats not their sole origin and is probably based too much on history and how the original fascists under Mussolini came about. The BNP have a character independent of being the thugs of the state and I think relying on that thesis alone wont do well for us in spreading popular opposition to the BNP and understanding their nature.

[Holden Caulfield]

The political elite of Germany, Italy, Spain, etc etc were not keen on fascism either, but all of these, when given the choice between socialism & revolution or a fascist dictatorship to quell the revolution, sided with the fascists.

They are a dog on a leash, at the moment they can be a bogey man used to try and win some more support for Labour/Lib Dems from anti-racist voters, they also serve the purpose of keeping the working class divided along racial lines and therefore keeping us weak. But make no illusions about 'liberal democracy': the majority of the political elite would much prefer fascism over socialism, and the BNP will be given the support of the establishment if capitalism ever reaches crisis point in our life times.

They are thugs of the system and the state, they will be used to avert revolution and to protect the state, they are the fail safe and this is why they are looked upon with scorn. They are the political equivilant (for the capitalist system) of sawing your own arms off to escape handcuffs, that is to say the capitalists do not want to do it, but if there is no other option then they will support fascists.

To dwell on the exterminations, deathcamps etc isnt the best idea, do not get emotional/hysterical about the issue, these arguments can be easily beaten, they are not the NSDAP and saying that they are plays into their hands, as it makes it easy to argue you down. To label them all racists is also not wise, to explain what they support is racist is better with specific examples is much wiser, if you say they are racists they will simply claim they are not, also what if one of them asks "whats wrong with that", all you have is moral arguments and they are hard to make.

We do not dislike the BNP because they are nasty racists, we dislike them because they divide the working class.
We must be material on this issue first and foremost, emotional/moral arguments are the gravy to our beefy materialism.

I, personally, would like to hear what the likes of VG1917 and Devrim have to say on this issue on this issue.

[Pogue]

(You double posted the last three words of your post. I'm like your spellchecker today :p)

You make good points. I think most people except it as a given that racism is wrong, but you'r right about getting deep into how their policies are racist/stupid to avoid getting all moral/emotional.

I say we start up a group or something (on the forum) specifically to analyse and de-contruct their arguments, because I think alot of people would be too based on 'their racist' which although true for the leadership (and could be proved by reading what they've said) could be argued against i.e. by individual members simply saying they're not. We need to spend more time on actually disproving what they say. Anyone up for that, or is there a group going I'm not in? (oncemore i'm talking about a group on revleft).

[Vanguard1917]

We do not dislike the BNP because they are nasty racists, we dislike them because they divide the working class.
We must be material on this issue first and foremost, emotional/moral arguments are the gravy to our beefy materialism.

I, personally, would like to hear what the likes of VG1917 and Devrim have to say on this issue on this issue.

I disagree that the BNP 'divides the working class' -- although i would, of course, agree that it does indeed have such an agenda. The working class today is divided, yes; but that has very little to do with the influence of miniscule organisations like the BNP.

[h0m0revolutionary]

I disagree that the BNP 'divides the working class' -- although i would, of course, agree that it does indeed have such an agenda. The working class today is divided, yes; but that has very little to do with the influence of miniscule organisations like the BNP.

That's just semantics really. But to be pedantic, then yes the BNP has too little influence at present to say that they divide the working class on any significant scale. But where they organise and do so without opposition, then yes, they divide the working class, at least to some extent.

But whilst it may be true to say that the BNP have little influence over the working class as a group, that in no way waters-down the need to fight them here and now.

I've said this on another post, but I think it bears repeating because you appear to have some pissy liberalism when it comes to fascism that i find bizarre, constantly you argue against the working class defending itself against fascism and I fail to understand why?

Fascism is the political embodiment of counter-revolution; its reaction, ultra-nationalism and hatred of minorities stems from what it is - and that is the last resort tool of the bouegiosie to surpress workers militantcy. History shows us that when the revolutionary crisis cannot be resolved positively in the interests of the working class and the bourgeoisie cannot restore stability it has been the role of the fascists to ride over class differences and restore stability in the interests of capital, through Bonapartist and militarist means. The oxygen for fascism is ironically the march of the revolutionary proletariat towards communism.

So yes it's easy to exaggerate BNP influence in our communities, but it's equally easy to imagine what to happen to our communities if they were tarnished with BNP influence! We shouldn't wait until the BNP are a real threat to smash them, we do it now while they're as weak as we are, because if they continue to grow, especially while the far left is in such disarray then it'll be our blood spilt.

There's no greater friend to the fascists than a weak anti-fascist movement that sits on it's arse waiting...

[Vanguard1917]

constantly you argue against the working class defending itself against fascism

Where did i argue against that?



But to be pedantic, then yes the BNP has too little influence at present to say that they divide the working class on any significant scale.


My argument is that, contrary to what the establishment, the media and the the mainstream left will have you believe, the BNP is not the cause of society's ills. It is, in fact, a fundamentally irrelevant phenomenon. Therefore, if we're indeed serious about confronting reaction in our society, we would do well to end our obsession with non-entity organisations like the BNP -- an obsession which only serves to divert attention away from the need to form a serious analysis of and challenge to the status quo.

[h0m0revolutionary]

http://www.revleft.com/vb/no-platform-policies-t104464/index.html?t=104464

In the above thread you argue against no platform, which as far as im concerned is a litmus test for sincere anti-fascists. You therefore fight for the ability of fascists to organise in and around educational institutions and oppose the very tactis workers use to defend themselves against fascists on their campus. It really is as simple as that.

[Vanguard1917]

http://www.revleft.com/vb/no-platform-policies-t104464/index.html?t=104464

In the above thread you argue against no platform, which as far as im concerned is a litmus test for sincere anti-fascists.

Yes, i argued against a policy which calls on the bourgeois state to police debate and political activity -- because, from the point of view of Marxism, any such 'no platform' position is immensely reactionary.

[h0m0revolutionary]

Yes, i argued against a policy which calls on the bourgeois state to police debate and political activity -- because, from the point of view of Marxism, any such 'no platform' position is immensely reactionary.

*sigh* You either can't read, in which case I apologise, or you just ignore facts..

No platform in educational institutions, by whatever definition does not call upon the state to implement anything. It means that within the confines of our student unions, the student body should have the right to implement a 'no platform' policy advocating the expulsion of fascists and/or hinder the ability of fascists to organise on their campus.

[Vanguard1917]

*sigh* You either can't read, in which case I apologise, or you just ignore facts..

No platform in educational institutions, by whatever definition does not call upon the state to implement anything. It means that within the confines of our student unions, the student body should have the right to implement a 'no platform' policy advocating the expulsion of fascists and/or hinder the ability of fascists to organise on their campus.

So you are opposed to universities banning students, groups and books for political reasons?



No platform in educational institutions, by whatever definition does not call upon the state to implement anything.


In 'educational institutions', it's not so much the state that's being called upon as other establishment institutions like universities and colleges.

[Devrim]

I, personally, would like to hear what the likes of VG1917 and Devrim have to say on this issue on this issue.

I don't think that it is very interesting at all. What it shows is that some of the European far right parties are having difficulty with the modernisation that is necessary for them to be more politically successful.

Devrim

[Melbourne Lefty]

Seems you are full of good points today HC!


You should know better than to assume we think he is a direct follower of the NSDAP. Yes; it was a cheap shot to call them nazis but it was rather obviously (so i thought) tounge in cheek.

Tongue in cheek? this is NOTW right? Owned by Murdoch? I Live in Australia where he owns nearly all the newsprint on the continent, I dont think they could even think that deeply...


We know who owns the NOTW and we know its full of shit as well.

hell yes:D



We know the old straight arm is the Italian thing, Roman salute and all that, and we know the Nazis nicked it, we know their arguments for defending what they do etc. However the fact that the BNP second in command meets these people, receives a salute of which we all know the connotations and, as you said, meets other fascist groups such as FN, NDP etc shows what kind of party leadership they have.


NPD and FN in Italy are frikkin MILES away from the reformist "nice guys" in the BNP.

I think on reflection its because the BNP finds it hard to find friends, sort of like a trotskyist at a Stalinist picnic.

They have a long relationship with the FN [France] but that aint got the cachet it once did.

Vlaams Belaang [or however you spell it], the Danish peoples party and Geert Wilders mob wont have anything to do with them because they are too "extreme" .

Meanwhile most of the east european groups are nutty as hell, and the BNP is desperately trying to get of the Jew Hater tag.

The only real option is to hook up with Nicks old friends in Italy, and if Roberto wants to invite the soon to be bankrupt REALLY neo-nazi NPD along there is not much they can do to complain.

The BNP wants to stay whites only, which means it is too extreme for the anti muslims.

The BNP wants to shed anti-semitic dogma, which makes it to "reformist" for the crazies.

At the same time they want to claim to be a part of an overall "movement" that is relentlessly on the march.

They are really between a rock and another rock here.



The BNP leadership are fascists/neo-nazis/coorperatists/whatever, again I will stress: it is their role in relation to the class struggle, the labour force & bosses, etc that makes them our 'enemy' not the fact they may or may not wear red armbands with swastikas, have 'SS' tattoos or seig heil each other.


Yup, they form a similar class role to the nazis.

However as you say yourself, the differences are large enough that simply going around calling them nazis really is starting to look a little silly. From the videos and comments most BNP members when called a nazi for the first time seem genuinely puzzled or even amused, they dont consider themselves nazis anymore. I doubt 5-10% of the BNPs membership has ever heard a skrewdriver song. It may be even less.




The purpose of posting this articles is to give the whole "[I]look at his friends and know the man"


Yup, the BNP rank and file are whining that it was all a set up.

They obviously dont know that much about their cousins in Italy. Forza Nuova is in many ways similar to the BNP in their message, but because Fascist culture never really died out completely in Italy they choose to EMBRACE their dark past rather than hide it.

Sorta like sex pistols with politics attached, something to piss off the staid conservative parents with.


Not to go all UAF and state, with a stern face and a lack of humor, that the BNP are all really clones of Hitler made in Brazil shortly after WW2.

Its sorta starting to go that way isnt it?

Can someone PLEASE find another spokesman for UAF other than Weyman? Pretty Please? The mans an embarasment.