Cuba

[Idealism]

From a non-anti-revisionists perspective, is cuba an accurate representation of socialism?

[Yehuda Stern]

No. At best it could have been a workers' state, like the early USSR. However, since it's revolution wasn't proletarian, it remains state capitalist.

[Coggeh]

From a non-anti-revisionists perspective, is cuba an accurate representation of socialism?
It is not an accurate representation of socialism .

For obvious reasons , lack of workers democracy/control . Because of the bureaucracy , lack of political freedoms etc etc .

But their is socialistic gains with Cuba that must be defended tooth and nail by all socialists , the health care & education systems , rights of women , the newly found rights for homosexual and transgendered people . Along with many many others .

[Yehuda Stern]

But their is socialistic gains with Cuba that must be defended tooth and nail by all socialists , the health care & education systems , rights of women , the newly found rights for homosexual and transgendered people . Along with many many others .

It's true that revolutionaries should defend these gains, but none of them are socialist. These are all democratic gains.

[Revy]

Cuba is state-capitalist, and whatever ideology they have does not match their actions.

Essentially, their methods are social democratic in nature. The 50 years of "Revolution" is nothing more than fifty years of reform. At this rate, Cuba will be socialist by the year 3000.

When Fidel endorsed Obama for President of the US, calling him "the most progressive candidate to the US Presidency (http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/05/26/castros-stinging-endorsement/)", that should have been the last straw for Fidel's "radical" supporters here in the USA. Fidel is not so dumb to be ignorant of the fact that there are socialist parties that run in Presidential elections. But he didn't think much of them.

Cuba runs on capitalism, not socialism. All the "Cuba Truth" websites can not even refute this one fact. We hear about "democracy", "healthcare", "education". What does this prove? Even if we accept that Cuba is a democracy, it is a social democracy. Its socialist character and even a socialist direction has not been established.

This is the inevitable position that Stalinist ideologies put a country in. What makes you think Cuba will not revert to market capitalism like the others? It's either that or have a real revolution. Will they stay loyal to the Castros to the end or will they become loyal to themselves?

[Niccolò Rossi]

From a non-anti-revisionists perspective, is cuba an accurate representation of socialism?No.

Tell that to the DSP (http://www.dsp.org.au/) ("A Marxist tendency within the Socialist Alliance"). I went to a public conference held my them over the long weekend (something for which I had to pay more than that charged for Socialism 2009 in the US, though I got in as a High School student, so it was acceptable), during which I learned that infact Cuba, Vietnam, Venezuela, Boliva are all building "Socialism in the 21st Century". Pretty amazing huh. Before now I never realised! My eyes are opened!

[robbo203]

Even if we accept that Cuba is a democracy, it is a social democracy. ?

Its not even that . Cuba's claim to be democratic - like its claim to be socialist - is a fraud. Only one party is allowed to stand, and only one candidate in each constituency, despite so called popular particiption in the nomination process but even then the party has the final say in the matter

[SocialismOrBarbarism]

Its not even that . Cuba's claim to be democratic - like its claim to be socialist - is a fraud. Only one party is allowed to stand, and only one candidate in each constituency, despite so called popular particiption in the nomination process but even then the party has the final say in the matter

From what I know NO party is allowed to stand. It's not socialist, but I think it's possible that it could be a workers state.


When Fidel endorsed Obama for President of the US, calling him "the most progressive candidate to the US Presidency (http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/05/26/castros-stinging-endorsement/)", that should have been the last straw for Fidel's "radical" supporters here in the USA. Fidel is not so dumb to be ignorant of the fact that there are socialist parties that run in Presidential elections. But he didn't think much of them.

Obama said he was for easing restrictions on Cuba. From Cuba's perspective, can you blame him?


Cuba runs on capitalism, not socialism. All the "Cuba Truth" websites can not even refute this one fact. We hear about "democracy", "healthcare", "education". What does this prove? Even if we accept that Cuba is a democracy, it is a social democracy. Its socialist character and even a socialist direction has not been established.What does democracy prove? Are you kidding? If we establish that it's a democracy, then we have a workers state.

[Hoxhaist]

I'm curious, what would a Trotskyite state look like, specifically?

[Kassad]

Well, let's see. We have universal healthcare, universal education, housing for all citizens, food and water properly distributed and all of these managed in a centrally planned economy by a party of the working class that democratically operates. The nation is run by a workers democracy and Cuba's resources are used for the Cuban people, not foreign profit ambitions.

...Seriously, children? Would you like Fidel Castro to shit hammers and sickles? It really must give you people tremors in the night to know that a Marxist-Leninist revolution properly provides and manages resources for its people. It must really stick in your craws.

[Charles Xavier]

Long live socialist Cuba! Down with the bourgeoisie lies about Cuba! Down with "socialists" believing those lies!

[Revy]

Long live socialist Cuba! Down with the bourgeoisie lies about Cuba! Down with "socialists" believing those lies!

Slogans, slogans, slogans! All hail slogans!

[Yehuda Stern]

Tell that to the DSP (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.dsp.org.au/) ("A Marxist tendency within the Socialist Alliance"). I went to a public conference held my them over the long weekend (something for which I had to pay more than that charged for Socialism 2009 in the US, though I got in as a High School student, so it was acceptable), during which I learned that infact Cuba, Vietnam, Venezuela, Boliva are all building "Socialism in the 21st Century". Pretty amazing huh. Before now I never realised! My eyes are opened!

Middle class Marxists always look for inspiration outside the working class. That leads to hang on to regimes even more degenerated than the Cuban one, like the Vietnamese, or ones that haven't even been through a revolution, like Venezuela and Bolivia.


We have universal healthcare, universal education, housing for all citizens, food and water properly distributed and all of these managed in a centrally planned economy by a party of the working class that democratically operates. The nation is run by a workers democracy and Cuba's resources are used for the Cuban people, not foreign profit ambitions.

Only that's one third irrelevant, one third inaccurate and one third a lie. Sure, Cubans have won all sorts of democratic gains from the revolution, which the Castroists will eventually take away like their ilk has done elsewhere. But Cuba is still a poor state, and no one but the most blind Stalinist can believe that it is a democracy, much less a workers' democracy.

It's not that I'm upset that the Cuban revolution worked - I'm upset that Cuba has one of those regimes that tarnishes the name of socialism and Marxism, and that it is aided by people like you who have no trust in the working class and who are willing to put any bourgeois nationalist who uses Marxist rhetoric on a pedestal.

[Sasha]

Well, let's see. We have universal healthcare, universal education, housing for all citizens, food and water properly distributed and all of these managed in a centrally planned economy by a party of the working class that democratically operates. The nation is run by a workers democracy and Cuba's resources are used for the Cuban people, not foreign profit ambitions.


soon you will be telling me that the dutch social demockracy is secretly a socialist workers state.... :laugh:


Long live stupid sloganeering! Down with the stalinist fairy tales about Cuba! Down with "socialists" believing those fairy tales!

fixed that for you...

The cuban people should be defended against imperialism and their social-dictatorship is absolutly preferebal over the bougois run "democracy"'s of the rest of south and midle america but its neither socialist nor communist

[teenagebricks]

I think within a few years Venezuela will have overtaken Cuba in terms of socialism, that's especially true if Raúl keeps pushing out these reforms. That said, Cuba is about as good as it gets at the moment, naturally I'm supportive.

[manic expression]

The belief that only one party is allowed to stand in elections is completely incorrect. No party nominates candidates, not even the PCC. Further, each community nominates one candidate through open, public meetings, and that candidate is subsequently subjected to a vote by the general public. There's nothing un-democratic about the Cuban electoral system, and most importantly it is controlled by the workers because it's done first and foremost at the so-called "grassroots" level, putting the initiative into the hands of communities and their members. Accessibility? It doesn't cost a single dime to run for the highest office in the country.

http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html (http://members.allstream.net/%7Edchris/CubaFAQ.html)
http://www.quaylargo.com/Productions/McCelvey.html

The Cuban political system is based on a foundation of local elections. Each urban neighborhood and rural village and area is organized into a "circumscription," consisting generally of 1000 to 1500 voters. The circumscription meets regularly to discuss neighborhood or village problems. Each three years, the circumscription conducts elections, in which from two to eight candidates compete. The nominees are not nominated by the Communist Party or any other organizations. The nominations are made by anyone in attendance at the meetings, which generally have a participation rate of 85% to 95%. Those nominated are candidates for office without party affiliation. They do not conduct campaigns as such. A one page biography of all the candidates is widely-distributed. The nominees are generally known by the voters, since the circumscription is generally not larger than 1500 voters. If no candidate receives 50% of the votes, a run-off election is held. Those elected serve as delegates to the Popular Councils, which are intermediary structures between the circumscription and the Municipal Assembly. Those elected also serve simultaneously as delegates to the Municipal Assembly. The delegates serve in the Popular Councils and the Municipal Assemblies on a voluntary basis without pay, above and beyond their regular employment.

And as for the supposed "insignificance" of Cuba's public services, it's simply superficial to write off Cuba's living standards as marginal. IF we are to believe the idea that the Cuban government is un-democratic, or that it isn't run by the workers, then how do we reconcile this with the exceptional services provided to its citizens? Are we supposed to believe that Cubans just got near 0% illiteracy and homelessness because their government was nice to them? Such a concept is as silly as it is anti-historical: these accomplishments are the accomplishments OF and BY the Cuban working class. From the earliest literacy initiatives to the most recent improvements in public transportation, the Cuban workers have built their society on their own terms and for their own ends.

At any rate, Cuba didn't reform within capitalism, as private ownership of Cuba's industries was abolished only years after the victory of 1959.

[communard resolution]

Long live socialist Cuba! Down with the bourgeoisie lies about Cuba! Down with "socialists" believing those lies!

Four legs good, two legs bad!

[Hoxhaist]

hopefully, Cuba will not fall into revision like the USSR and their bloc. Those attempts at "reform" led to collapse, I hope the Castros keep those lessons in mind

[el_chavista]

Perhaps you see the democratic aspect from your advanced-country point of view. In Venezuela there have been more than 200 agrarian leaders shot to death (by "sicarios" hired by landlords) just for struggling in favor of the country-side democratization.

We are backward countries. We have a little industrial working-class. So before the world socialist revolution takes place, the antiimperialist Cuban vanguard has done the best they can do.

[Yehuda Stern]

We have a little industrial working-class. So before the world socialist revolution takes place, the antiimperialist Cuban vanguard has done the best they can do.

I'm almost certain that the Russian working class in 1917 was smaller than the working class in Cuba and Venezuela.

[el_chavista]

Any how the Cuban revolution survived thanks to the URSS. No wonder the Cuban model is akin to the soviet model.

[Pogue]

From a non-anti-revisionists perspective, is cuba an accurate representation of socialism?

No.

[STJ]

I wonder if Cuba will ever practice real Communism.

[Montreal Leftist]

"From a non-anti-revisionists perspective, is cuba an accurate representation of socialism?"

Please don't call them anti-revisionists. Stalinists are the biggest revisionists ever. (eg. Adopting the Menshevik Stage Theory).
Cuba is a state with a nationalized planned economy. But it is undemocratic in the way that the bureaucracy decides what is going to be produced etc, ie. the bureaucracy manages the production. Cuba can become a socialist state if the workers get control of the production process and take control of the state through a political revolution.

Cuba is a deformed workers state and certainly not socialist. But it has progressive features due to its planned economy, which should be defended. For example Cuba has one of the highest standards of living in Latin America, even though it is a small isolated island. All this due to its planned economy.

But now cuba faces the threat of the bureaucrats sellign the nationalizing planned economy out, in order to serve their interests just like they did in the USSR. The only solution to that is democratic workers control and internationalism.

I would invite you to read the brilliant analysis made by Jorge Martin on the website marxist.com (In defence of Marxism).

[mosfeld]

"From a non-anti-revisionists perspective, is cuba an accurate representation of socialism?"

Please don't call them anti-revisionists. Stalinists are the biggest revisionists ever.

[....]

I would invite you to read the brilliant analysis made by Jorge Martin on the website marxist.com (In defence of Marxism).

Holy fuck, your world is upside down. Anti-Revisionists are now revisionists and a Trotskyite website has a “brilliant analysis“.

Nice trolling.

[robbo203]

The belief that only one party is allowed to stand in elections is completely incorrect. No party nominates candidates, not even the PCC. Further, each community nominates one candidate through open, public meetings, and that candidate is subsequently subjected to a vote by the general public. There's nothing un-democratic about the Cuban electoral system, and most importantly it is controlled by the workers because it's done first and foremost at the so-called "grassroots" level, putting the initiative into the hands of communities and their members. Accessibility? It doesn't cost a single dime to run for the highest office in the country.

http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html (http://members.allstream.net/%7Edchris/CubaFAQ.html)
http://www.quaylargo.com/Productions/McCelvey.html.

Bollocks. Cuba is a state capitalist one-party dictatorship. It is a cynical distortion of the truth to claim that Cuban electoral system is "controlled by workers "despite the facade of "grassroots" participation. The final list of candiates (609 - only one candiate per constituency) to the national assembly is closely controlled and drawn up by the ominously named "National Candidature Commission" which takes into account such factors as such as candidates' merit, patriotism, ethical values and revolutionary history. So if an electorate put forward a candidate that was not to the liking of the NCC he os hse could be rejected. The likelihood of an outright critic of the undemocratic communist party of Cuba being is zero. And of course the selection of all important posts and f the cabinet post is completely controlled by Castro and his crooked pro-capitalist croonies. Needless to say no other political party than the pseudo communist party is allowed to operate in Cuba. Some bleddin democracy!

[SecondLife]

I am little surprised. Democracy??? Bureaucracy??? Are you all from USA?:) Ok, it was joke. Yes, I know how is life in Cuba. In my opinion democracy is just the most evil manner of direction of society. Democracy isn't nothing more than ideal capitalism (right-wing) where richs buy votes. Its also bureaucracy, evan more, its plain mafia. Socialism-communism means proletariat dictature. It can't be democracy, because who then takes the consequences from contra-revolution? This contra-revolution happens very quickly, in seconds, if you allow right-wing to go to elections.
Completely the other story is about Cuba bureaucracy and democracy inside PCC. But, think a little.....to balance fight against contra-revolution (mostly backed by USA) and guarantee freedom inside PCC, this is not easy mission. This is like "mission impossible". In USSR and others this ends with disaster. First disaster was Stalin and other was return to capitalism. No, I think Cuba is anyway fine and you must be glad about this. Or maybe Cuba needs international help and support at all. Yes, there exist problems, example I don't like at all any kind of party intervention into ethics. Fortunately now there exist freedoms for homosexuals and also liberty of speech (but not direct action against PCC of course).
I fear more about economic liberation, to become capitalist state like USSR transforms. But Cuba is in more better position - as opposed to USSR, there people like socialism in reality and Fidel isn't dictator for people, he's real patriot.
Cuba is better than nothing!

[manic expression]

Bollocks. Cuba is a state capitalist one-party dictatorship. It is a cynical distortion of the truth to claim that Cuban electoral system is "controlled by workers "despite the facade of "grassroots" participation. The final list of candiates (609 - only one candiate per constituency) to the national assembly is closely controlled and drawn up by the ominously named "National Candidature Commission" which takes into account such factors as such as candidates' merit, patriotism, ethical values and revolutionary history. So if an electorate put forward a candidate that was not to the liking of the NCC he os hse could be rejected. The likelihood of an outright critic of the undemocratic communist party of Cuba being is zero. And of course the selection of all important posts and f the cabinet post is completely controlled by Castro and his crooked pro-capitalist croonies. Needless to say no other political party than the pseudo communist party is allowed to operate in Cuba. Some bleddin democracy!

You're dealing with hypotheticals, I'm dealing with facts. Since you're so certain the "ominously named" NCC (as if names determined behavior) bars non-PCC candidates, it shouldn't be too hard to find an example of this happening in real life. Of course, you won't find an example of this happening, precisely because you can't.

Really? The "likelihood" of Oswaldo Paya and the Varela Project is "zero"? Sorry, but the facts prove you wrong yet again, here are real instances of anti-PCC dissent tolerated in Cuba:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4569981.stm

Look at that, an open and public anti-government meeting in Havana, covered by capitalist outlets. The Cuban government even allowed then-president George Bush to call the meeting to express his "support". Where's the repression there?

http://www.oswaldopaya.org/es/2009/01/11/oswaldo-paya-give-a-voice-to-our-people/

Is Oswaldo Paya, a staunch opponent of the PCC, in prison? No, he's allowed to push his capitalist rhetoric as a free man in Cuba, and he receives quite a bit of pro-capitalist attention for it.

Oh, and just about everyone, pro or anti-Cuba, agrees that non-party members DO serve in the National Assembly, because they've been fairly elected. If you took 20 seconds of your time to find out what actually goes on in Cuba instead of spewing anti-factual garbage, you might figure that out, too. Once more, the facts prove you wrong.

[SocialismOrBarbarism]

I think the claims of the government repressing dissent are exaggerated. I found out recently that the Miami Herald, which is extremely anti-Cuban, is one of the most popular sites in Cuba, getting something like 100,000 hits a day at some points. For people that know the kind of stuff published in the Miami Herald...does that sound like something a government that represses free speech would tolerate?