National Bolshevism

[LOLseph Stalin]

What is this exactly? From my understanding it's Communist ideas combined with elements of Nazism and nationalism. I kinda get an image of "Socialism in one country" with only the people of one nationality. Aren't these National Bolsheviks Anti-Semitic and crap? This obviously goes against real Communist ideas of equality and fairness.

[ComradeOm]

NazBol policies are too batshit insane to warrant an extensive explanation. Its political platform is primarily nationalist in tone but also envisions the creation of a pan-Eurasian empire to counter US hegemony. Domestically they have a hodge-podge of economic ideas that are generally corporatist in tone. Their communist inspiration is largely a matter of style (ie drawing on Soviet imagery and 'great men') but while they are on the far-right anti-semitism is not officially part of their programme

Not to be confused with the 'national Bolsheviks' of Civil War Russia or the German Revolution

[Brother No. 1]

National Bolshevism is a political movement that claims to combine elements of nationalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism) and Bolshevism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolshevism).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Bolshevism#cite_note-Klemperer-0)
National Bolshevism is often anti-capitalist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-capitalism) in tone, and sympathetic towards certain nationalist forms of communism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism) and socialism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism). Nevertheless, National Bolshevism is separate and distinct from National Communism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Communism). National Bolsheviks have historically defended both Stalinism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalinism) and Strasserism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strasserism), although in current times they do not wish to re-create those systems.
The ideology claims a direct link to Hegel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegel), whom it presents as the father of idealism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism). The ideology is highly traditionalist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditionalist_School) in the mold of Julius Evola (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Evola). Amongst other influences claimed by the movement are Georges Sorel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Sorel), Otto Strasser (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Strasser) and José Ortega y Gasset (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Ortega_y_Gasset) (although this last influence is largely because of his rejection of left (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_politics) and right (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_politics) labels, which is also a feature of National Bolshevism). While Strasser was a "dissenting Nazi" who advocated a more socialist (than Hitler) Nazi-type system, and is as such often associated with racist groups (many of which are admittedly inspired by Strasser), he did not openly advocate antisemitism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism) during his life and associated with Jews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews) throughout his political career (especially while in exile during the Reich years in Germany). The modern Limonovist wing of the NBP in Russia goes beyond this and opposes xenophobia and racism, but, rather, supports a territorial (not racial) Russian nationalism.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]
Today, Russia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia) is considered to be the center of National Bolshevism, and almost all of the National Bolshevik parties and organizations in the world are connected to it. Amongst the leading practitioners and theorists of National Bolshevism are Aleksandr Dugin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Dugin) and Eduard Limonov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eduard_Limonov), who leads the unregistered and banned National Bolshevik Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Bolshevik_Party) in Russia.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Bolshevism#cite_note-1) National Bolsheviks participated in demonstrations against the G8 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G8) in Saint Petersburg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Petersburg).[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Bolshevism#cite_note-2) Influenced heavily by the idea of geopolitics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geopolitics), current Russian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia) National Bolshevism movements propose a merger between Russia and the rest of Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe) in a union to be known as Eurasia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasia). Lately there rose an opposition to the efforts of Limonov to find allies even if they are pro-Western (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world) capitalists; some even left the National Bolshevik Party and formed the National Bolshevik Front (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Bolshevik_Front).[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Bolshevism#cite_note-3)
There are National Bolshevik groups in Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel) and in parts of the former Soviet Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Former_Soviet_Union), which are tied to the Russian National Bolshevik Party.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Bolshevism#cite_note-4) Other groups, such as the Franco (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France)-Belgian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgium) Parti Communautaire National-Européen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parti_Communautaire_National-Europ%C3%A9en) also share National Bolshevism's desire for the creation of a united Europe (as well as many of its economic ideas), and French political figure Christian Bouchet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Bouchet) has also been influenced by the idea.[6]




Basicly my oppion of them: I could care less about them. They betray the name Bolsheivk and pretend to be like them. thought they defend "Stalinism" I still could care less. They say their with the left but thats just a load of BS and shouldnt be even consdiered with us. The Nazbols are nothing more then a crazied party or organization following a ideal that makes no sesne.

[Vendetta]

Nazis, with Stalin replacing Hitler.

[ls]

What is this exactly? From my understanding it's Communist ideas combined with elements of Nazism and nationalism. I kinda get an image of "Socialism in one country" with only the people of one nationality. Aren't these National Bolsheviks Anti-Semitic and crap? This obviously goes against real Communist ideas of equality and fairness.

Bollocks to the Bolsheviks, everyone rants on about them but it was in fact the Anarchists who brought real freedom.

[LOLseph Stalin]

Nazis, with Stalin replacing Hitler.


Short, but sweet. I think that pretty much sums up my views on it. :lol:

[Hoxhaist]

these are Vlasovite zombies just as fascist as Vlasov and are opportunistic to try to subvert Stalin's legacy to their own ends. They are NOT real Bolsheviks!!!

[LOLseph Stalin]

They are NOT real Bolsheviks!!!

Yep, I figured that part out. They're a perversion of original Bolshevism.

[Woland]

A little more right-wing or just about the same politically as the original Bolsheviks?

Get the fuck out of here. If you have no idea, why post?

[Brother No. 1]

(quote)Nazis, with Stalin replacing Hitler.(Quote)

So you think of us Anti-Revisionist just the same as Nazis?


(quote)Short, but sweet. I think that pretty much sums up my views on it. http://www.revleft.com/vb/national-bolshevism-t106220/revleft/smilies2/laugh.gif(quote)


So you think Stalin is just as bad as hitler? You think I am just the same as a naiz? If so then you my comrade..have a lot of re-learning to do.

[robbo203]

Get the fuck out of here. If you have no idea, why post?

Thats right - scratch a stalinist and you will soon find a fascist lurking beneath. Next I guess it will be "to the Gulag" with him!

[Woland]

Thats right - scratch a stalinist and you will soon find a fascist lurking beneath. Next I guess it will be "to the Gulag" with him!

Yeah, I'm actually a national-bolshevik in disguise of a fascist Stalinist. You can see that in my brutal persecution of good socialists, just like the evil, evil Stalin did in his lifetime, wiping out thousands of communists with his custom-made, gold-plated Tokarev T-33's, because he was just so evil. So you better beware robbo.

[LOLseph Stalin]

So you think Stalin is just as bad as hitler? You think I am just the same as a naiz? If so then you my comrade..have a lot of re-learning to do.

I don't think you understand the ideas behind National Bolshevism. It could almost be considered a form of Nazism. They're Nationalistic, Anti-Capitalist, Pro-Communist, and many are racist just as the Nazis were. Really the only way it differs is in the fact that it aims to create a national, racially pure Communist society based on the idea of "Socialism in one country". As you know, the Socialism in one country was Stalin's idea. National Bolsheviks follow that so in a sense Stalin is treated like their Hitler. It's really a perversion of Communist ideas if that makes more sense.

[Brother No. 1]

My lenin..I knew they were idiots..but theis goes beyond stupidty.

[LOLseph Stalin]

My lenin..I knew they were idiots..but theis goes beyond stupidty.

Well as people have said, the National Bolsheviks aren't really Communist. They're Nazis who are trying to be Communist. :laugh:

http://peoplegetready.jockamofeenanay.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/nazi_flag_375.jpg
Nazi

http://www.folkandfaith.com/images/natbolsh1.jpg
National Bolshevik

Not much difference.

[Brother No. 1]

Then they will fail just as much as Capitalist fails.

Nazbols= EPIC FAIL!!!

[LOLseph Stalin]

Then they will fail just as much as Capitalist fails.

I think of it this way: at least they try to put the fact of Anti-Capitalism and equality into mind. They still fail of course.

[Brother No. 1]

Yes the put Anti-Capitalism in their minds but doesnt the National Socialist do the same but the eqaulity part is strange...their Nationalistic yet want Equality...very weird.

[LOLseph Stalin]

Yes the put Anti-Capitalism in their minds but doesnt the National Socialist do the same but the eqaulity part is strange...their Nationalistic yet want Equality...very weird.


National Socialism is different. Their economic system is essentially Fascist. Fascism uses corporatism. NazBols still want Communism.

[Brother No. 1]

Yes they "want" Communism but it will never come to them. They betrayed the name of Bolshevik and Boshevikism. I really dont see how they can even get Communism either if the betray some of its prinicbles.

[LOLseph Stalin]

Yes they "want" Communism but it will never come to them. They betrayed the name of Bolshevik and Boshevikism. I really dont see how they can even get Communism either if the betray some of its prinicbles.

All their ideas contradict each other. Anti-Semitism/Racism doesn't=equality, Communism is essentially internationalist unlike NazBols with their nationalism bullshit.

[Brother No. 1]

Nazbols= Nazis who think Stalin is their hitler.

[LOLseph Stalin]

Nazbols= Nazis who think Stalin is their hitler.


Pretty much, yes. :rolleyes: They generally support Lenin and Stalin's ideas.

[Brother No. 1]

They generally support Lenin and Stalin's ideas.

Yet their Nationalstic, Anti-Semitist, and Racist..they shoudl basicly just call them selfs Nazis to save whats left of their..wait nevermind they have no dignity!

[robbo203]

Yeah, I'm actually a national-bolshevik in disguise of a fascist Stalinist. You can see that in my brutal persecution of good socialists, just like the evil, evil Stalin did in his lifetime, wiping out thousands of communists with his custom-made, gold-plated Tokarev T-33's, because he was just so evil. So you better beware robbo.


Despite your attempt at tongue in cheek sarcasm thats not that far off from the truth.

On a more serious note I came across this from the American SLP on why marxists oppose stalinism http://www.slp.org/pdf/others/marx-stal.pdf

[hugsandmarxism]

Pretty much, yes. :rolleyes: They generally support Lenin and Stalin's ideas.

No. If they understood Lenin and Stalin's Ideals, they wouldn't be Nazbols. Of course, a revisionist who has followed the typical line of Stalin being the anti-christ to Trotsky's Christ, is likely to make this mistake. They are kind of like men in drag; they put on the lipstick, heels, and skirt of communism for outward apperances, but deep down, they are the same fascistic uglyness that men like Lenin and Stalin fought against tooth and nail.

[benhur]

I don't like Stalin or nazbols, but to compare them to Hitler/Nazis is quite unfair. Nationalism Socialism was based upon concepts like racial purity and related nonsense, whereas Nazbol was a misguided view that socialism could be established in one country, and that it doesn't necessarily have to be an international one. One may disagree with this-I certainly do-but it still doesn't make nazbol as hateful and bigoted as Nazism where the sole priority revolved around race politics rather than around economics.

At least with nazbol, there's no hatred, there's only a mistaken notion of socialism, a misguided attempt to establish it, policy failures and such....but there's no deliberate intent to harm people on the basis of race, nationality etc. At worst, it's just a wrong policy on the economic front, nothing more; whereas, National Socialism wasn't just a wrong policy, it was knowingly implemented to discriminate against people and harm them. This key diff. has to be acknowledged.

[robbo203]

No. If they understood Lenin and Stalin's Ideals, they wouldn't be Nazbols. Of course, a revisionist who has followed the typical line of Stalin being the anti-christ to Trotsky's Christ, is likely to make this mistake. They are kind of like men in drag; they put on the lipstick, heels, and skirt of communism for outward apperances, but deep down, they are the same fascistic uglyness that men like Lenin and Stalin fought against tooth and nail.


Actually that is a rather good description of Lenin and even more so, Stalin - dressed up in the drag of communism while ruthlessly operating a system of state capitalism (by Lenin's own admission!). If Stalin;s brutal disposal and execution of thousands of so called enemies of the state (Lenin was far less that way inclined but certainly no angel) does not qualify as "fascistic uglyness" I dont know what does. The man was a megalomanical tyrant and its pathetic that you still have people here cravenly and ignorantly apologising for this bastard. Call a spade a spade in my book and have done with it

[Pogue]

I don't like Stalin or nazbols, but to compare them to Hitler/Nazis is quite unfair. Nationalism Socialism was based upon concepts like racial purity and related nonsense, whereas Nazbol was a misguided view that socialism could be established in one country, and that it doesn't necessarily have to be an international one. One may disagree with this-I certainly do-but it still doesn't make nazbol as hateful and bigoted as Nazism where the sole priority revolved around race politics rather than around economics.

At least with nazbol, there's no hatred, there's only a mistaken notion of socialism, a misguided attempt to establish it, policy failures and such....but there's no deliberate intent to harm people on the basis of race, nationality etc. At worst, it's just a wrong policy on the economic front, nothing more; whereas, National Socialism wasn't just a wrong policy, it was knowingly implemented to discriminate against people and harm them. This key diff. has to be acknowledged.

No, its fascism. Its not communism gone wrong, its fascists using communist imagery and some ideas.

[Pogue]

(quote)Nazis, with Stalin replacing Hitler.(Quote)

So you think of us Anti-Revisionist just the same as Nazis?


(quote)Short, but sweet. I think that pretty much sums up my views on it. http://www.revleft.com/vb/national-bolshevism-t106220/revleft/smilies2/laugh.gif(quote)


So you think Stalin is just as bad as hitler? You think I am just the same as a naiz? If so then you my comrade..have a lot of re-learning to do.

Your not the same as a Nazi, but there is alot of similarities. You hero-worship a dictator who killed millions, you deny certain facts abot his history, etc. I think if you're going to blindly praise someone like Stalin, you're going to have to accept that you're going to get some people not liking that and yes, drawing a comparison with Nazism, especially seeing as, economics aside Hitler and Stalin were very similar in behaviour and attitude. Lets not forget the joint campaign in Poland, and the fact both purged their own parties.

[Pogue]

Yes the put Anti-Capitalism in their minds but doesnt the National Socialist do the same but the eqaulity part is strange...their Nationalistic yet want Equality...very weird.

Says you, with CCCP = *hammer and sickle* in your signature. Thats nationalism.


My lenin..I knew they were idiots..but theis goes beyond stupidty.

You've actually taken to saying 'My lenin' as some crude replacement for 'My god'? Do you not realise how much of a parody you are?

And no, criticising Stalin or drawing parralells between him and Hitler is not 'beyond stupidity'. I'd say holding the line of an Stalinist in the 21st century is beyond stupidity, because its such a hopeless and unjustifiable and utterly unappealing and irrelevant ideology.

[communard resolution]

Modern Russian National Bolshevism is basically a Russia-specific form of fascism. It seeks to establish national unity by suggesting as an enemy/external threat to Russia the 'Great Satan USA' and 'the West' (they literally use these words in their party programme).

In Nazbol view, capitalism = 'the West' = USA = international = alien to the Russian spirit = chaos and disorder, whereas socialism = true to the 'Russian spirit' = national = iron order and discipline.

One may say that Nazbol ideology is somewhere mid-way between the over-simplified ideas of certain anti-imperialist factions of the left and Strasserite National Socialism.

[Revy]

What is this exactly? From my understanding it's Communist ideas combined with elements of Nazism and nationalism. I kinda get an image of "Socialism in one country" with only the people of one nationality. Aren't these National Bolsheviks Anti-Semitic and crap? This obviously goes against real Communist ideas of equality and fairness.

Crypto-fascists.
Co-opting patriotic images relating to Soviet history within Russia. That is the true extent of their "leftism".

[Revy]

I don't like Stalin or nazbols, but to compare them to Hitler/Nazis is quite unfair. Nationalism Socialism was based upon concepts like racial purity and related nonsense, whereas Nazbol was a misguided view that socialism could be established in one country, and that it doesn't necessarily have to be an international one. One may disagree with this-I certainly do-but it still doesn't make nazbol as hateful and bigoted as Nazism where the sole priority revolved around race politics rather than around economics.

At least with nazbol, there's no hatred, there's only a mistaken notion of socialism, a misguided attempt to establish it, policy failures and such....but there's no deliberate intent to harm people on the basis of race, nationality etc. At worst, it's just a wrong policy on the economic front, nothing more; whereas, National Socialism wasn't just a wrong policy, it was knowingly implemented to discriminate against people and harm them. This key diff. has to be acknowledged.

You don't understand it enough.

They are using a fascist strategy called "third position". Meaning, they are trying to position themselves as an alternative to both the left and the right, by pretending to combine aspects of both.

This is little different from "National Socialism", "National Syndicalism", and the contemporary "National Anarchism". They all are fascist in character.

[Dimentio]

I don't like Stalin or nazbols, but to compare them to Hitler/Nazis is quite unfair. Nationalism Socialism was based upon concepts like racial purity and related nonsense, whereas Nazbol was a misguided view that socialism could be established in one country, and that it doesn't necessarily have to be an international one. One may disagree with this-I certainly do-but it still doesn't make nazbol as hateful and bigoted as Nazism where the sole priority revolved around race politics rather than around economics.

At least with nazbol, there's no hatred, there's only a mistaken notion of socialism, a misguided attempt to establish it, policy failures and such....but there's no deliberate intent to harm people on the basis of race, nationality etc. At worst, it's just a wrong policy on the economic front, nothing more; whereas, National Socialism wasn't just a wrong policy, it was knowingly implemented to discriminate against people and harm them. This key diff. has to be acknowledged.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MeKyZKcgt8

National bolsheviks are a modern Russian group which were formed around 1995 in the Russian Federation.

[robbo203]

At least with nazbol, there's no hatred, there's only a mistaken notion of socialism, a misguided attempt to establish it, policy failures and such....but there's no deliberate intent to harm people on the basis of race, nationality etc. At worst, it's just a wrong policy on the economic front, nothing more; whereas, National Socialism wasn't just a wrong policy, it was knowingly implemented to discriminate against people and harm them. This key diff. has to be acknowledged.

The youtube video link provided by Serpent suggests otherwise - they are anti semitic as well as being apologists for state capitalism like the original Bolsheviks

[Rjevan]

I don't like Stalin or nazbols, but to compare them to Hitler/Nazis is quite unfair. Nationalism Socialism was based upon concepts like racial purity and related nonsense, whereas Nazbol was a misguided view that socialism could be established in one country, and that it doesn't necessarily have to be an international one. One may disagree with this-I certainly do-but it still doesn't make nazbol as hateful and bigoted as Nazism where the sole priority revolved around race politics rather than around economics.
As Nero and stancel said, National Bolshevism is rather comparabel with Strasserism, the "left" form of Nazism, which was developed by the brothers Otto and Gregor Strasser and supported by Ernst Röhm and parts of the SA, who claimed that Hitler "betrayed the revolution" and asked for a "second revolution" before they were killed in the "Night of the Long Knives". Strasserism is part of the "Third Position" ideology which tries to unite left-wing radicals with right wing-radicals, claim to take take the "best" from both ideologies while rejecting "pure" left or right and presenting themselves as an alternative to Capitalism, Communism and Fascism, but are nothing but "left fascists".


If Stalin;s brutal disposal and execution of thousands of so called enemies of the state (Lenin was far less that way inclined but certainly no angel) does not qualify as "fascistic uglyness" I dont know what does. The man was a megalomanical tyrant and its pathetic that you still have people here cravenly and ignorantly apologising for this bastard. Call a spade a spade in my book and have done with it
Why "so called" enemies of the state? Is it really that unbelievable that they were enemies of the state?
I also find it more pathetic that some people cravenly and ignorantly jump at every single peace of "Stalin was a bloodthirsty monster, who is even worse than Hitler!!!" anti-USSR propaganda produced by capitalists.


You hero-worship a dictator who killed millions, you deny certain facts abot his history, etc. I think if you're going to blindly praise someone like Stalin, you're going to have to accept that you're going to get some people not liking that
We're certainly not "hero-worshipping" anybody and we don't "blindly praise" anybody. Anti-Revisionism doesn't mean practicing stupid and senseless worshipping, we don't agree with every single thing Stalin said or did but we agree with this:

You speak of your "devotion" to me.... I would advise you to discard the "principle" of devotion to persons. It is not the Bolshevik way. Be devoted to the working class, its Party, its state. That is a fine and useful thing. But do not confuse it with devotion to persons, this vain and useless bauble of weak-minded intellectuals.
And for this "certain facts" of history: who told us about Stalins "horrible crimes"? The Nazis, in their propaganda against the "Jewish-Bolshevik red storm, which will destroy whole Europe, if it isn't stoped by the brave warriors of the Reich!" and the strict anti-communist capitalist America during the Cold War. I'm absolutely convinced both of them spoke nothing but the absolute truth, I mean what would they have had to gain? See, nothing, so Stalin must be a bloodthirsty monster! Becasue they told us so!
Unlike to the Nazi KZ documents there are no Russian documents which contain undeniable facts about "Stalin's holocaust" and affirm the statements of the Nazis and the West.


The youtube video link provided by Serpent suggests otherwise - they are anti semitic as well as being apologists for state capitalism like the original Bolsheviks
It's actually a bit tricky, this video is not from the National Bolshevik Party (NBP), it's from the National Bolshevik Front (NBF), some ultra hardcore right-wingers, who seperated from the NBP because they are "too far on the left side".
This man you see at 3:01 is Edvard Limonov, the leader of the NBP who is accused of "selling them out to the Jews" because he participates in Kasparov's oposition and demonstrates together with some small communist groups and wrote about his homosexual experiences.
Therefore the hardcore right-wingers left the party together with Alexander Dugin, who founded the NBP together with Limonov and formed up the NBF, also known as "NBP without Limonov".

[robbo203]

Why "so called" enemies of the state? Is it really that unbelievable that they were enemies of the state?
I also find it more pathetic that some people cravenly and ignorantly jump at every single peace of "Stalin was a bloodthirsty monster, who is even worse than Hitler!!!" anti-USSR propaganda produced by capitalists...


Come on now - you dont have to go along with more outrageous and OTT estimates of the numbers of people - running into the tens of millions -who perished at the hands of the Stalinist dictatorship to recognise that it was, even so, a bloodsoaked and despicable regime that liquidated many of its opponents -not to mention, many innocents. "Enemies of the state". Dont make me laugh. That is Orwellian doublespeak for enemies of Stalin. Some of those that Stalin gave the order to execute were old comrades who had the temerity to question one or two of his decisions. I suppose thats OK in your book is it? Even Lenin who was no angel himself and had a rather nasty habit of bumping off people who got in the way expressed grave doubts about the man in his last will and testament . 30,000 Red Army personnel were executed by Stalin's state thugs for no other reason than that they had lost in battle. Do you think that was a humane decision? I could go on but then I will be accused of cravenly "jumping up and down " at "anti USSR propaganda produced by the capitalists".

Conveniently though you omit to mention the pro USSR propaganda produced by the supporters of state capitalism which tries to make out that Stalin was something other than what the plain facts of the matter tell us he was - a vicious scheming megalomaniac who ruled over a corrupt and repugnant state capitalist regime that dragged the good name of socialism through the mud

[LOLseph Stalin]

Maybe somebody should close this thread? It seems like the entire thing is turning into a tendency war.

[communard resolution]

Maybe somebody should close this thread? It seems like the entire thing is turning into a tendency war.

No, people should simply stop posting off-topic.

Tupac Amaru II, an anti-revisionist poster I rarely agree with, was spot on when he said every other thread is derailed the moment someone mentions Stalin. What follows is the usual "Stalin was bad" vs. "Stalin was good" debate that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Can we please 'de-Stalinise' this thread? This is about National Bolshevism.

[khad]

Aah, the NBP. The last I heard of them, they've been promoting some gun ownership bullshit (which for a society with as high a crime rate as Russia is downright cretinous), ostensibly for white Russians to defend themselves against immigrants. Limonov has stated publicly that AKM (vanguard of red youth) is full of extremists because they had taken a non-nativist, non-racist stance on the immigration issue.

The sad thing is that a lot of genunine leftists seem to have been deluded by Limonov. I can only hope that that segment of the NBP membership has been absorbed into more legitimate groups like AKM.

[communard resolution]

If we want to broaden this thread into a debate about National Bolshevism in general rather than just the modern Russian variation, we should mention that NB isn't an entirely new current but goes back to the late 1910s and 20s, starting with 'nationalist communists' such as Ernst Niekisch, a German USPD politician, as well some other USPD and KPD members.

Some of these loons went as far as trying to 'subvert' the SA and the Hitler Youth.

Interested in discussing this?

[ComradeOm]

If we want to broaden this thread into a debate about National Bolshevism in general rather than just the modern Russian variation, we should mention that NB isn't an entirely new current but goes back to the late 1910s and 20s, starting with 'nationalist communists' such as Ernst Niekisch, a German USPD politician, as well some other USPD and KPD membersAFAIK the term 'National Bolshevikism' was first used to describe those nationalist elements of the Tsarist state (eg, Brusilov) who saw the Bolsheviks as an opportunity to restore Russia's great power status and thus made common cause with the revolutionaries

The term also crops up in the German Revolution with a current of the KAPD demanding a 'popular front' against the Allied Powers. IIRC the refusal of the KAPD executive to act against this faction (which was based in either Hamburg or the Rhineland) was a significant barrier to Lenin's attempts to encourage a merger between the KAPD and KPD

[Rjevan]

They seem to attract some talented youths and some genuine leftists, who are just disappointed with the well, let's say passiveness and inactivity of many left groups. They see how active the NazBol are (and they are very active) and that they demonstrate militant and provoking and therefore some leftists seem to think, that the NazBols are the only real vanguard for a revolution in nearer future.
Given that this guy isn't just a NB-member, who just tries to lure leftists, this comment from a youtube NB video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PKxhG-zXdg&feature=related), confirms what I said:

I am a real communist and bolshevik and I have to confess that I´m nothing close to these guys. They are doing the true revolution, using all of methods available to fight against an opressive system.
Sometimes they do protests with only 7-10 people and get enough atention, they are also the illegal party which mostly grows at streets, because they know that people don´t want a static and monolitic kind of party.
I think that nazbols understand bolshevism better than us!


Second, the movement has a strong tendency to fragment once the people in it realize that their core beliefs don't match and that they can't agree on anything. Even after the Limonov-Dugin split, the NBP split/fragmented a number of times, owing to Limonov's fascinations with Islamic radicalism, the party's feelers towards liberal organizations, and its current orientation with the march of the discontented led by Gary Kasparov.This is typical for "Third Positionists" and other parties, which try to unite left and right. There are too many differences, there are already enough differences between leftists and right-wingers under themselves, if they are confronted with people who stand for the absolute opposite of their ideas it has to lead to constant conflicts, splittings and often paralysis of the whole party.
So I guess they won't ever gain much political power, like every other "unit of left and right"-party, since they're to much at odds with each other.


If we want to broaden this thread into a debate about National Bolshevism in general rather than just the modern Russian variation, we should mention that NB isn't an entirely new current but goes back to the late 1910s and 20s, starting with 'nationalist communists' such as Ernst Niekisch, a German USPD politician, as well some other USPD and KPD members.
This would be interesting, but what exactly is the differency between National Communists and National Bolsheviks? I think National Communism often goes together with Islam but is that all, or are there other differences?


Some of these loons went as far as trying to 'subvert' the SA and the Hitler Youth.Are you refering to the "left-wing" of the SA or do you mean genuine leftists tried to infiltrate the SA and HJ?

[khad]

This is typical for "Third Positionists" and other parties, which try to unite left and right. There are too many differences, there are already enough differences between leftists and right-wingers under themselves, if they are confronted with people who stand for the absolute opposite of their ideas it has to lead to constant conflicts, splittings and often paralysis of the whole party.
So I guess they won't ever gain much political power, like every other "unit of left and right"-party, since they're to much at odds with each other.
If I had to peg their current position, they've been functionally absorbed by the liberal opposition. They do stuff now with gun ownership and organizing small business owners.

[Rjevan]

Well, their sites are on again, they were down for several days, I already asked myself if they were finnaly closed since the NB is illegal (not that this would restrain them on being active openly).
But here are some examples from the Czech NazBols (http://www.narodni-bolsevik.org/Art.htm), which show how they are trying to undercut the whole left movement and try to attract not only
"Stalinists" but also Anarchisist and Antifa.
http://www.narodni-bolsevik.org/Art/Symbolika/Vlajka3.jpg (http://www.narodni-bolsevik.org/Art/Symbolika/aVlajka3.jpg)http://www.narodni-bolsevik.org/Art/Plakaty/flags2525.jpg (http://www.narodni-bolsevik.org/Art/Plakaty/aflags2525.jpg)http://www.narodni-bolsevik.org/Art/Plakaty/Front2.jpg (http://www.narodni-bolsevik.org/Art/Plakaty/aFront2.jpg)

Edit: Hey look what I found there, they link to our radio :scared::
#RÁDIA:
http://www.narodni-bolsevik.org/Play.jpg (http://www.narodni-bolsevik.org/Radio.htm)

Extrém. boršč (http://www.narodni-bolsevik.org/Radio.htm)
http://www.narodni-bolsevik.org/Play.jpg (http://revleft.com:8000/radiorebelde.m3u)

REVLEFT (http://revleft.com:8000/radiorebelde.m3u)
http://www.narodni-bolsevik.org/Play.jpg (http://mfile.akamai.com/10623/live/reflector:31074.asx)

Jiné Rusko (http://mfile.akamai.com/10623/live/reflector:31074.asx)

[The Author]

Holy shit, I've never seen those before! So now, not only are these scum trying to associate with real Bolshevism, they're actually trying to also reconcile with the anarchist movement! That's crazy...

[Die Neue Zeit]

Is "left" National Bolshevism a petit-bourgeois variant of Lassalleanism, combining socialist politics with nationalist ones?

[khad]

Well, their sites are on again, they were down for several days, I already asked myself if they were finally closed since the NB is illegal (not that this would restrain them on being active openly).
But here are some examples from the czech nazbols, which show how they are trying to undercut the whole left movement and try to attract not only
"Stalinists" but also Anarchisist and Antifa.
I would be interested to find out how much these guys are linked up with Limonov's people. From what I've seen before, these foreign branches of the NBP usually have a considerable degree of autonomy, with even one Israeli branch being fascistly pro-Zionist even as Limonov was pushing the party towards Islam.

There are possibilities that some of these branch organizations could be pushed in a genuinely leftwing direction. I wouldn't write that off completely.

[Rjevan]

Is "left" National Bolshevism a petit-bourgeois variant of Lassalleanism, combining socialist politics with nationalist ones?
I don't think so, they are more radical then Lassalle's policies were. The "left" NazBols seem to refer to "socialism in one country" and claim that it's childish to assume that a world revolution would ever happen. But they definitely are not reformist like Lassale was, they see themselves as the only real vanguard for revolution, since the other communist parties are much to divided, behind the times, corrupted and passive, according to their view.
I would say that the "left" ones are simply disappointed Communists who are attracted by the aggressive and porvocant anti-capitalistic style and the activity of the NazBols and then adopt some few right beliefes there but still strongly differ from the as well disappointed "left" Fashists and Strasserists.


I would be interested to find out how much these guys are linked up with Limonov's people. From what I've seen before, these foreign branches of the NBP usually have a considerable degree of autonomy, with even one Israeli branch being fascistly pro-Zionist even as Limonov was pushing the party towards Islam.

There are possibilities that some of these branch organizations could be pushed in a genuinely leftwing direction. I wouldn't write that off completely.
I don't know how much they are linked to Limonov but the Latvian section seems to be pretty left, they take part in anti-SS remembering marches there and their leader is an immigrant (or the son of immigrants, I can't find their site at the moment) from Kenia.
But the "main" NazBols seem to be rather would-be fascists and confused youths than anything else.

[STJ]

What is this exactly? From my understanding it's Communist ideas combined with elements of Nazism and nationalism. I kinda get an image of "Socialism in one country" with only the people of one nationality. Aren't these National Bolsheviks Anti-Semitic and crap? This obviously goes against real Communist ideas of equality and fairness.
Nationalism and Communist at the sametime says confused to me read some Marx people.

They are very racist. Read some more Marx you fools.

[khad]

Nationalism and Communist at the sametime says confused to me read some Marx people.

They are very racist. Read some more Marx you fools.
Nationalism can and has been mobilized for socialism. Though probably not the other way around.

The problem with the Nazbols is that they have no class analysis whatsoever. It's mostly just vague fascist emotionalism.

[Dimentio]

Limonov actually got some sort of "class analysis"...

His main idea is that workers are not revolutionary and that they are "boring". He want his vanguard to consist of punks, failed students, insane people and so on...

[khad]

Limonov actually got some sort of "class analysis"...

His main idea is that workers are not revolutionary and that they are "boring". He want his vanguard to consist of punks, failed students, insane people and so on...
As I said, if he thinks dropouts and the insane constitute a class, then he has no class analysis.

[skki]

I think it's pretty funny that Stalinists will blame Capitalist and Fascist conspiracies for the accusations levied against Stalin, when in reality his most prominent critic was probably Khrushchev.

[Bright Banana Beard]

I think it's pretty funny that Stalinists will blame Capitalist and Fascist conspiracies for the accusations levied against Stalin, when in reality his most prominent critic was probably Khrushchev.
Funny thing that Stalin does not have a heir nor he want to do that, while we are expecting Hilary, Obama, John McCain, or Rooney to be a president.

[khad]

I think it's pretty funny that Stalinists will blame Capitalist and Fascist conspiracies for the accusations levied against Stalin, when in reality his most prominent critic was probably Khrushchev.
What's the point behind your shit stirring?

[skki]

Shit stirring?
I was making an observation.

[Rjevan]

Shit stirring?
I was making an observation.
Which has got nothing to do with the topic...

Anyway, yes, right, I already forgot about Limonov's "class analysis". :lol:
It's really funny, he states that everything great that was achieved throughout history was always started by frustrated outsiders, failed in life persons and lunatics and as soon as they died, the "normal" people came to power, he calls them "burgeois bores", and destroyed everything what the misunderstood but brilliant masterminds built up.
Therefore he wants his party to consist of "misfits" who will destroy the old worlds and built up a new gloriuos society the "normal" people wouldn't even dream of...

[Dimentio]

Well, I could build an ideology on the idea of "beautiful" people as a class.