Are the police a worthwhile ally in the class war?

[HoChiMilo]

I have as much contempt for the police as I'm sure most of you guys do. But, during the October revolution (and even dating back to the uprising in 1905) the revolutionaries eventually got many of the cossacks and czar's troops to defect to our side...

After all, these are unionized men and most of the police in my area hardly make it above working-class status. They don't own any means of production, so it is my view that they are proletarian. But, they're there to enforce the rules of the capitalist machine. MAYBE they're lumpenproletarian... that doesn't mean we couldn't persuade them to come to the left...

So, would you ever ally with a police officer?:confused:

[h0m0revolutionary]

In a time of revolution many may well take our side, but as it stands presently they are agents of the repressive state apparatus. Their job is to protect and enforce law, the majority of which relates to the aquisition, distribution or protection of private property.

So no we shouldn't ally ourselves with them, it's their job to come to us.

[teenagebricks]

I would ally with the police if they would ally with me, in other words, no, the police have never supported the interests of me or my comrades, the G20 fiasco last week only reaffirmed that belief. However, if the police suddenly did change their minds and go against the state for the interests of the country then I would be quite happy to align myself with them. Can't see that happening anytime soon though, so unfortunately it's a big no from me.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

No. Troops are different but would you really want to risk involving the police in with your organization or in different circumstances , militia?

[HoChiMilo]

Well, this is a question I still haven't answered for myself. It depends on what the police are willing to do AFTER the revolution. Do they want to be the police again, or do they want actually to serve and protect our brothers and sisters on the street? In my opinion though, they would have every means necessary to both start an uprising and root out counter-revolutionaries in the process through intelligence gathering.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

It is very interesting. In my opinion any revolution would have to dismantle the police authority, abolish them for it to be a true revolution. I am sure some would take our side and fight with us but it could be very risky. Police could claim they are mutinying but be double agents. I wouldn't trust a policeman in a time of revolution any more than I trust one now. I also feel that policemen, like the military are heavily brainwashed and as a result have a purely capitalist authoritarian outlook on what is right and wrong. I think most would stay loyal.

[Jack]

No, here in CT the new ones have to get a Bachelors in Criminology, Criminal Justice and the like. Can't put too much hope in someone who spent 4 years and thousands of dollars so they could protect property.

[Vendetta]

Nope. Probably be a very, very slim chance of 'sure, maybe', but I doubt it.

[Faceless]

It is a historical law that in every revolution splits take place within the navy, army and police force. The truth is that the line of cleavage always tends to leave a greater proportion of them on the side of reaction than say compared with the army and navy.

Comrade Joe and others raised the concern that it could be dangerous to ally with police and bring them towards our organisations. When we look at historic examples such as Russia 1917, France 1968 etc., when we say that many of the police will "split" from the state, although some will come over to the workers, the majority will take an attitude of wavering neutrality. So for 90% of police officers this isn't even an issue although the most radical should be encouraged to work as closely as possible with us.

That said, splits betwee a section of the army/police and the state are completely to the advantage of revolutionaries and should be encouraged by various means depending on the situation. Although it's absolutely right to condemn the casual violence of the police such as at the G20 - on other occasions it is right to take up the demands of certain sections of the police when they are directed against the state.

For instance, it annoyed me that last year, when the Police Federation were demanding the right to strike here in Britain and were angry at public sector pay restraint - a mood in line with that of most public sector workers! - a lot of the left just sneered. They are "pigs" why should we support their demands? We should have whole hearedly supported their demands and invoked the most radical traditions of the police - such as the 1919 police strike - to drive the thin end of the wedge between the rank and file police and the state.

[ArrowLance]

No, the police are a tool of the bourgeois used to protect private property and repress the proletariat in general.

[RedAnarchist]

Allying with the police would be like using the tools of the ruling class against the ruling class, which would be foolish.

[Bitter Ashes]

Allying with the police would be like using the tools of the ruling class against the ruling class, which would be foolish.
Am I the only one who finds the concept of using thier own weapons against them highly entertaining?

[Pogue]

From personal experience I can tell you any of them who had a problem with what they do would have quite already. They are conditioned to believe what they do is right.

[Rosa Provokateur]

They're organized, they've as much stake in freedom as any of us, and I think they get a shit deal from the State. I say welcome the boys in blue and teach 'em some Emma Goldman too:D

[HoChiMilo]

Rock on Green Apostle. It really won't take much to start agitating a left-wing sentiment. These cats are blue-collar, unionized and organized. I can guaruntee, once we see the pensions and stipends getting cut these cats will move pretty far to the left. Well, that's from the perspective of a new yorker -- we tend to be a predominantly center-left area anyway.

[Raúl Duke]

I can understand troops/military people "joining on the side of revolution" (especially conscripts and draftees) but I haven't really heard much of police going to the side of the revolution. Actually, once I heard someone make a claim that in the October Revolution, while the soldiers did join the revolution, the police still fought for the state/Czar.

[griffjam]

Wow, what an original question.:rolleyes:

One argument against anti-police sentiment is that the police, as our fellow workers, are also exploited members of the proletariat, and should therefore be our allies. Unfortunately, as anyone who has tried to do anything in the real world knows, there is a vast gap between “should” and “is.” The police exist to enforce the will of the powerful; anyone who has not had a bad experience with them is likely either privileged or submissive. Today’s police officers, at least in North America, know exactly what they’re getting into when they join the force; people in uniform don’t just get cats out of trees in this country. Yes, most take the job because of what they feel to be economic necessity, but needing a paycheck is no excuse for obeying orders to evict families, harass young men of color, or pepper spray demonstrators; those whose consciences can be bought are everyone else's enemies, not potential allies. This argument could be made a little more persuasive if it was couched in strategic terms, rather than Marxist abstractions: for example, “Every revolution succeeds at the moment the armed forces refuse to make war on their fellows; therefore we should focus on seducing the police to our side of the barricades.” But again, the police are not just any workers; they are the ones who have most deliberately chosen to base their livelihoods and value systems upon the prevailing order, and thus are the least likely to be sympathetic to those who struggle against hierarchy. This being the case, it makes sense to focus on opposing the police, not on seeking solidarity with them. So long as they serve their masters, they cannot be our allies; by publicly deriding the police as an institution, we encourage them to cease to be police officers, so we can find common cause with them.


Another argument is that the police are a mere distraction from the real enemy, not worth our wrath or attention. Alas, state power is not just the politicians; they would be powerless without the millions who do their bidding. When we contest their control, we are also contesting the submission of their flunkies, and we are sure sooner or later to come up against those of the latter who insist on submitting. That being said, it’s true that the police are no more integral to hierarchy than the oppressive dynamics in our own communities; they are simply the external manifestation, on a larger scale, of the same phenomena. If we are to contest hierarchy everywhere, rather than specializing in combating certain forms of it while leaving others unchallenged, we have to be prepared to take it on both in the streets and in our own bedrooms; we can’t expect to win on one front without fighting on the other. We shouldn’t fetishize confrontations with uniformed foes; we shouldn’t forget the power imbalances in our own ranks—but neither should we be content merely to manage the details of our own oppression in a non-hierarchical manner.


__________________

[ellipsis]

at the point when they become our allies, they stop being agents of the state/police

[Faceless]

I can understand troops/military people "joining on the side of revolution" (especially conscripts and draftees) but I haven't really heard much of police going to the side of the revolution. Actually, once I heard someone make a claim that in the October Revolution, while the soldiers did join the revolution, the police still fought for the state/Czar.

You might be interested in this:

http://www.marxist.com/dual-power-in-france-militant-leaflet.htm

It's a pamphlet written by the Militant in May 1968. When describing the fissures in the state structure they quote the Times as saying:


The police themselves have been touched by the hot flames of revolt. Their union issued a warning to the Government that "the police officers thoroughly appreciated the reasons which inspired the striking wage-earners and deplored the fact that they could not by law take part in the same way in the present labour movement... the public authorities will not systematically set the police against the present labour struggles" (Times, 24.5.68). In the event of a clash, many "serious words, many sections, if not the majority, would go over to the workers. The Army also would be split from top to bottom if the officer caste sought to intervene. This is shown by the comments of a National Serviceman when he was asked if he would fire on the students and workers and replied ‘Never. I think their methods may be a bit rough but I am a worker's son myself'." (Times 21.5.68). If ever there was a time when the working class could take power peacefully, that time is now.

Obviously the police in Tsarist Russia were very different to the police in France of 1968 who themselves were very different to todays unionised NYPD officers. In Britain for instance there's a big difference between a secret service agent and a community support officer (many of the latter are UNISON members).

In the case of the Russian Cossacks we have perhaps the most stark example. The Cossacks remember previously would charge and hack down peaceful protestors. They owned their own horses and their own land. They had more to lose than your average cop in the US. Trotsky described the following moment in the February Revolution which he repeatedly refers to as a perfect illustration of the revolution reaching a critical point:


The workers at the Erikson, one of the foremost mills in the Vyborg district, after a morning meeting came out on the Sampsonievsky Prospect, a whole mass, 2,500 of them, and in a narrow place ran into the Cossacks. Cutting their way with the breasts of their horses, the officers first charged through the crowd. Behind them, filling the whole width of the Prospect galloped the Cossacks. Decisive moment! But the horsemen, cautiously, in a long ribbon, rode through the corridor just made by the officers. “Some of them smiled,” Kayurov recalls, “and one of them gave the workers a good wink” This wink was not without meaning. The workers were emboldened with a friendly, not hostile, kind of assurance, and slightly infected the Cossacks with it. The one who winked found imitators. In spite of renewed eff6rts from the officers, the Cossacks, without openly breaking discipline, failed to force the crowd to disperse, but flowed through it in streams. This was repeated three or four times and brought the two sides even closer together. Individual Cossacks began to reply to the workers’ questions and even to enter into momentary conversations with them. Of discipline there remained but a thin transparent shell that threatened to break through any second. The officers hastened to separate their patrol from the workers, and, abandoning the idea of dispersing them, lined the Cossacks out across the street as a barrier to prevent the demonstrators from getting to the centre. But even this did not help: standing stock-still in perfect discipline, the Cossacks did not hinder the workers from “diving” under their horses. The revolution does not choose its paths: it made its first steps toward victory under the belly of a Cossack’s horse.

For griffjam's benefit: these are not abstractions, theses are real historic events. I'm not making up excuses for police violence, I'm not denying that they exist to preserve private property (that they do is clear). I'm not even denying that we should take opportunities to expose the role of the police. I'm just describing it the way it is.

[redSHARP]

it depends. on individual accords some are just people who really hate their jobs but have no where to go. the NYPD attracts the bottom rung of society in the city. the NYPD are not brutal (beyond the few gross incidents that are really sickening) and they are not that oppressive (beyond enforcing the law). some are dicks and fucking terrible people. they are not brutual compared to most law enforcement groups.

During May Day last year, when me and my friends left the rally at the end of it, there were two cops who asked me to pick up a ciggeratte butt i dropped (of all things, but why not, they asked nicely:lol:). So i picked it up and they said to me that they support the immigrants rights, unions should be stronger, and a lot of things that May Day is all about (in New York). the low level police officer is a form of the proleteriat, but they are special cases. Yet, when it comes down it, no cop in New York City would gun down a group of protesters Cossacks style. i have heard it from off duty cops before.

so i would be wary of them, but i have no real issue with cops or troops carrying the red flag of revolution.

[Enragé]

the only way a police(wo)man can become an ally is if he/she quits her/his job.

The police are the armed thugs of the ruling class, how the fuck can they be an ally? Especially since all they do all day is being those armed thugs, patrolling the street, arresting those who fuck up the status quo. Doing this simply leads to a kind of subjectivity which does not in any way favour revolution. In this they differ from the military, which in general, even if its not made up out of conscripts, aren't taught, trained and used to suppress domestic dissent 24/7.

[HoChiMilo]

The fact of the matter is, they're better armed. They'll always be. Allowing the willing to join the cause is also a tactical issue. Revolutions happen when there is a serious wedge between two segments of society, such as the bourgeoisie and proletariat. After a while, the police will find themselves on either side. It would be foolish to try and fight them before first trying to gain their support.

[Comrade B]

If a cop wanted to fight against the people they were protecting, sure I would let them join me... but that rarely happens.

[Q]

They can be, in heightened class struggle. Sadly the poll doesn't offer such an option, thus I didn't vote.

[JohnnyC]

I think many of you are oversimplifying things.Police officers are individuals just like everyone else, and it's not smart to write them all of just because of their job.There may be many of them who will side with capitalists but that shouldn't mean we are supposed to just give up and declare them enemies.Our job is to educate people about our ideas, and if we do that the way we should I wont be surprised to see some of the police side with us.

[John The Outlaw]

Pig are not our allies, they are our opressors. A pig who is no longer a pig, and is on our side, which I find quite impossible should be watched with the utmost attention.

[BogdanV]

Speaking of cops, there was a quote of a Romanian palace guard, right before the events that lead to marshall Antonescu's rise to power in Romania, and the guy said something in the lines of "If people are to storm the Palace, how am I supposed to shoot in the People ?" Basically, the guy, although a supporter of the monarchy, risked himself stating that if the King's will stops coinciding with that of the People, he steppes down, letting the population do what it considers to be best.

And lets not forget that these words were spoken in a time of instability in the country, so not all cops/military/whatever are "evil servants" of capitalism.
Most of them don't even realize the fact that they're serving a ruthless regime and when the Revolution will come, only the intelligence agencies and fanatics will oppose the masses.
The army and police simply cannot cope with the psychological stress that they have to slaughter their own kin.
Sure, this works with quelling a demo, a small uprising, but not a nation-wide phenomena where even the dumbest individual would realize that this is indeed the will of the people.

[Dr Mindbender]

no, cops are always firmly on the bourgeoisie side of the fence.

[MilitantAnarchist]

is this a serious question?
they are the enemy

[khad]

It is very interesting. In my opinion any revolution would have to dismantle the police authority, abolish them for it to be a true revolution. I am sure some would take our side and fight with us but it could be very risky. Police could claim they are mutinying but be double agents. I wouldn't trust a policeman in a time of revolution any more than I trust one now. I also feel that policemen, like the military are heavily brainwashed and as a result have a purely capitalist authoritarian outlook on what is right and wrong. I think most would stay loyal.
What's the hangup? Aren't the cops poor, oppressed working class folks with oppressed working class families? Just like those mercenary Crusaders doing police work smashing skulls in Iraq and Afghanistan, you know. All these mercenaries are deserving of our sympathy and support, and woe to any *degenerate* *savage* who dares to resist them. They're *our* working class lads.

HAR HAR HAR.

[swampfox]

Today's modern police authority are incredibly loyal to the government and local politicians. In order to put them on our side, they must be tricked into coercion to turn their backs on the hand that feeds them.

[StalinFanboy]

No one is taking into account the kinds of acts policeman have been guilty of. It doesn't matter if they are working class or not. Remember Greece? Remember Oakland? That shit happens every single day.

[JohnnyC]

No one is taking into account the kinds of acts policeman have been guilty of. It doesn't matter if they are working class or not. Remember Greece? Remember Oakland? That shit happens every single day.
Members of the police are individuals and not a single body.Your argument is based on a faulty generalization.

Same reason can be used against revolutionaries.For example, "communists in Columbia are terrorists, therefore all communists is terrorists".

[khad]

If a cop wanted to fight against the people they were protecting, sure I would let them join me... but that rarely happens.
To be serious, police forces typically support whomever is in power. They rarely join rebellions and then only in the very late stages. Take the example of the liberation of Paris, in which the police finally joined the resistance after seeing the writing on the wall. They then offered their services (ie extralegal killings) to resistance members wanting to settle scores--only a month earlier, they would have been locking up and killing these rebels for the Nazis.

So yes, individually perhaps, but as an organization, the police are not going to come on your side. But control the state, and you will control the police.

[Comrade Anarchist]

The police are workers and are abused by the rich they are just not educated to their plight and if they are they are too afraid to step out of line and lose their job

[griffjam]

Members of the police are individuals and not a single body.Your argument is based on a faulty generalization.

Same reason can be used against revolutionaries.For example, "communists in Columbia are terrorists, therefore all communists is terrorists".


One argument against anti-police sentiment is that the police, as our fellow workers, are also exploited members of the proletariat, and should therefore be our allies. Unfortunately, as anyone who has tried to do anything in the real world knows, there is a vast gap between “should” and “is.” The police exist to enforce the will of the powerful; anyone who has not had a bad experience with them is likely either privileged or submissive. Today’s police officers, at least in North America, know exactly what they’re getting into when they join the force; people in uniform don’t just get cats out of trees in this country. Yes, most take the job because of what they feel to be economic necessity, but needing a paycheck is no excuse for obeying orders to evict families, harass young men of color, or pepper spray demonstrators; those whose consciences can be bought are everyone else's enemies, not potential allies. This argument could be made a little more persuasive if it was couched in strategic terms, rather than Marxist abstractions: for example, “Every revolution succeeds at the moment the armed forces refuse to make war on their fellows; therefore we should focus on seducing the police to our side of the barricades.” But again, the police are not just any workers; they are the ones who have most deliberately chosen to base their livelihoods and value systems upon the prevailing order, and thus are the least likely to be sympathetic to those who struggle against hierarchy. This being the case, it makes sense to focus on opposing the police, not on seeking solidarity with them. So long as they serve their masters, they cannot be our allies; by publicly deriding the police as an institution, we encourage them to cease to be police officers, so we can find common cause with them.


Another argument is that the police are a mere distraction from the real enemy, not worth our wrath or attention. Alas, state power is not just the politicians; they would be powerless without the millions who do their bidding. When we contest their control, we are also contesting the submission of their flunkies, and we are sure sooner or later to come up against those of the latter who insist on submitting. That being said, it’s true that the police are no more integral to hierarchy than the oppressive dynamics in our own communities; they are simply the external manifestation, on a larger scale, of the same phenomena. If we are to contest hierarchy everywhere, rather than specializing in combating certain forms of it while leaving others unchallenged, we have to be prepared to take it on both in the streets and in our own bedrooms; we can’t expect to win on one front without fighting on the other. We shouldn’t fetishize confrontations with uniformed foes; we shouldn’t forget the power imbalances in our own ranks—but neither should we be content merely to manage the details of our own oppression in a non-hierarchical manner.

[Pogue]

Would it be useful to have whole bunch of (ex) police on our side? Certainly.

Is it likely to happen? Certainly not.

[Cynical Observer]

as an institution of course not! but individual police officers can't all be assholes, many are just ignorant. I'm in favor of trying to sway some over to our way of thinking if we can

[Patchd]

I think many of you are oversimplifying things.Police officers are individuals just like everyone else, and it's not smart to write them all of just because of their job.There may be many of them who will side with capitalists but that shouldn't mean we are supposed to just give up and declare them enemies.Our job is to educate people about our ideas, and if we do that the way we should I wont be surprised to see some of the police side with us.

But currently that job means opposing us in our attempts to gain control over our own lives and society. They get enough revolutionary propaganda, they get it from the countless banners they see at demos where they're on the other side of the fences with their shields and batons.

As individuals, they can be a nice person, but when their occupation involves the potentiality of opposing working class struggle and protecting Capital and it's interests, then they must be opposed institutionally and as they are such clear class enemies, they should not be allowed to get involved in the movement unless they leave the force.

[JohnnyC]

But currently that job means opposing us in our attempts to gain control over our own lives and society. They get enough revolutionary propaganda, they get it from the countless banners they see at demos where they're on the other side of the fences with their shields and batons.

As individuals, they can be a nice person, but when their occupation involves the potentiality of opposing working class struggle and protecting Capital and it's interests, then they must be opposed institutionally and as they are such clear class enemies, they should not be allowed to get involved in the movement unless they leave the force.
I agree with you.Their job is reactionary, but they, as individuals cannot be based solely on their job.Police are not our allies, but individuals that make the police potentially are.

[JohnnyC]

One argument against anti-police sentiment is that the police, as our fellow workers, are also exploited members of the proletariat, and should therefore be our allies. Unfortunately, as anyone who has tried to do anything in the real world knows, there is a vast gap between “should” and “is.” The police exist to enforce the will of the powerful; anyone who has not had a bad experience with them is likely either privileged or submissive. Today’s police officers, at least in North America, know exactly what they’re getting into when they join the force; people in uniform don’t just get cats out of trees in this country. Yes, most take the job because of what they feel to be economic necessity, but needing a paycheck is no excuse for obeying orders to evict families, harass young men of color, or pepper spray demonstrators; those whose consciences can be bought are everyone else's enemies, not potential allies. This argument could be made a little more persuasive if it was couched in strategic terms, rather than Marxist abstractions: for example, “Every revolution succeeds at the moment the armed forces refuse to make war on their fellows; therefore we should focus on seducing the police to our side of the barricades.” But again, the police are not just any workers; they are the ones who have most deliberately chosen to base their livelihoods and value systems upon the prevailing order, and thus are the least likely to be sympathetic to those who struggle against hierarchy. This being the case, it makes sense to focus on opposing the police, not on seeking solidarity with them. So long as they serve their masters, they cannot be our allies; by publicly deriding the police as an institution, we encourage them to cease to be police officers, so we can find common cause with them.


Another argument is that the police are a mere distraction from the real enemy, not worth our wrath or attention. Alas, state power is not just the politicians; they would be powerless without the millions who do their bidding. When we contest their control, we are also contesting the submission of their flunkies, and we are sure sooner or later to come up against those of the latter who insist on submitting. That being said, it’s true that the police are no more integral to hierarchy than the oppressive dynamics in our own communities; they are simply the external manifestation, on a larger scale, of the same phenomena. If we are to contest hierarchy everywhere, rather than specializing in combating certain forms of it while leaving others unchallenged, we have to be prepared to take it on both in the streets and in our own bedrooms; we can’t expect to win on one front without fighting on the other. We shouldn’t fetishize confrontations with uniformed foes; we shouldn’t forget the power imbalances in our own ranks—but neither should we be content merely to manage the details of our own oppression in a non-hierarchical manner.


Great post with which I agree completely.I'm against police as institution as much as you are, I only disagree with discriminating people just on the basis of their job.We should fight them while they are on the other side, but at the same time educate them about our goals and how they will benefit them too.Some, unfortunately, fetishize fight against the police and I am very much against that.

[Patchd]

I agree with you.Their job is reactionary, but they, as individuals cannot be based solely on their job.Police are not our allies, but individuals that make the police potentially are.

I agree, in a time of revolution, I would suspect some in the police force (perhaps those involved in lower level community policing, or other "nice" stuff would be more inclined to join our side), however when that is the case, they will take off their uniform. While they wear that uniform and are willing to do so, then they should be opposed. Yes, we should shout out our slogans and what our beliefs are to them (not with much hope I'd suspect), but we shouldn't respect or side with them. We would not do so with a judge, a major, a politician etc. although we may argue our point of view across to them, or they can educate themselves in our political beliefs.

Generally though, it is hard to convince anyone taking part in the state's oppressive institutions simply because of the fact that to be a part of it is to oppose revolutionary working class interests. They will remain ignorant of our views in order to preserve their privilege and social status. The privilege of a judge is a rich income, being very high up in the social hierarchy, an authoritative position etc. and the privilege that a police officer has are obviously authority, social position, the ability to beat a person and get away with it scott free etc...

[Radical]

For aslong as the police are attacking our comrades, I advocate the use of brutal force against these current supporters of the monarchy and oppression.

[StalinFanboy]

Members of the police are individuals and not a single body.Your argument is based on a faulty generalization.

Same reason can be used against revolutionaries.For example, "communists in Columbia are terrorists, therefore all communists is terrorists".
Terrorist is an ambiguous word. Not the same, sorry.


If someone decides to become a police officer, and, after the Academy training, decides it's a worthwhile profession then they are no comrade of mine. I can generalize this because it is certain people that wish to be in a sadistic role within society where they have zero accountability, and are able to run wild.

They are pigs.

[redSHARP]

i think my friend put it best when i had this debate. he answered with "so every german was a nazi?"

the point is, dont trust them, if they do jump ship they have to do it as civilians, but don't stereotype; it can cause some one to miss a good opportunity and ally.

what if the police force mutinied and joined us in open street fighting against reactionary forces? would we ask them to dismantle their units and turn over their uniforms and guns?

[The Douche]

i think my friend put it best when i had this debate. he answered with "so every german was a nazi?"

the point is, dont trust them, if they do jump ship they have to do it as civilians, but don't stereotype; it can cause some one to miss a good opportunity and ally.

what if the police force mutinied and joined us in open street fighting against reactionary forces? would we ask them to dismantle their units and turn over their uniforms and guns?

Yes...


Kind of.

If they did mutiny then they should not still be wearing their uniforms and they should be spread through out other units, not maintain their current structure and chain of command.

[pastradamus]

I have a history of Hate with the police. However I will acknowledge that police in some parts of the world have, in the past allied themselves with workers but as a generalisation they usually back the status quo.

The very idea of a police force is to protect state property against the working class. The police also operate as an arm of a government who condones privitization of property and land and so in this will back up the state on such a matter as defending corporate interests first. Personally speaking ANYTIME I ever needed the police they either:

A) Did not show up
B) Were too late to deal with the problem
C) Wrongfully took someone else's side and told me to shake hands
D) Ignored my call and my report

and the one that really pisses me off.

E) Their stupid forensic team took MY OWN FINGER PRINTS off MY OWN CAR. This was when my car was stolen and although the car was littered with criminal prints (including a beer can they left in the back seat) they did nothing.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

i think my friend put it best when i had this debate. he answered with "so every german was a nazi?"
Because every German actually made a choice to commit to becoming a German, and went through extensive training and indoctrination before they were allowed to be Germans?

what if the police force mutinied and joined us in open street fighting against reactionary forces? would we ask them to dismantle their units and turn over their uniforms and guns?
No, but I find it hard to imagine who we'd be fighting against if not the cops. And, of course, the minute they did that they'd stop being "police" in any meaningful sense of the word, so we still wouldn't be allied with the police.

[samofshs]

I worked at a camp once. the police in training little kids rented it out for a week. I had to work with them. If their cause is yours then they will fight FIERCELY for your side because they are trained to do this. I'm sorry but those guys are bad ass mother's, his little kid was doing something wrong so they decided to punish him by making him run. he fell down and started vomiting after running for a while in the FL heat. then his superior made him do push ups in his own vomit for stopping to throw-up. they followed this up by making him run another mile in the sugar sand. So I think the question shouldn't be are they a worthy ally, but do we even want some force trained in this method to represent us.:confused: I ask you this now.

[Manxboz]

The police are an object of the fascist and imperialistic government, you might have some police who would side with the people but many will stay with their pay checks.