Punk Discrimination?

[MilitantAnarchist]

I am facing alot of discrimination in finding a job, and i beleive it is because i have pink hair and tattoos. I know there is hardly any jobs about but even before all this i found it difficult.
I dont have a bad CV, and haven't gone for any 'customer facing' jobs, they have all been in the back room or office, where it shouldnt matter on your appearance atall (even though it shouldnt even if you are dealing with customers, but thats the world we live in).
Does anyone know anything about human rights and if i have any in these circumstances?

[h0m0revolutionary]

I've had this with my tattoos and piercings, sadly employers are within their rights to discrimminate on these grounds, insofar as they can ask you to have a hair colour that is appropriate to business policy (ie - a natural colour) and cana sk you to removew piercings, cover up tatoos etc

Now if you apply for a job and so does somebody who looks like they wouldn't need their dress code regulating, i imagine qualifications or not, they'd get the job above you.

Of course it's criminal! I have alot fo piercings and often I have known within five seconds of an interview I hasn't got the job piercisely because they were more interested in staring at any body modification I have than my CV.

Of course there are a few jobs where such an image helps. Certain fashion stores, record shops as well as more liberal, less business type places such as sex shops or health food stores :D

[Module]

Is this thread actually serious? Of course it's going to matter if you have pink hair and piercings if you go into a job interview. It's also going to matter if you wear a suit and tie or a potato sack to a job interview. People want somebody they see as being respectable, polite and responsible and of course people are judged on the basis of how they present themselves.
Sure, you shouldn't be unable to get a job because of how you choose to look, but only because nobody should be unable to get a job on the basis of anything other than their own merits.
So you can't dye your hair whatever colour you want - big deal. Do you wear bondage pants and studded leather jackets to your job interviews, too? You're lucky the only discrimination you have to worry about is for something you can so easily change. There are far bigger fish to fry, believe me, than 'punkphobia'.
If you're actually serious about getting a job then dye your hair black/brown/blonde and count yourself lucky it's that easy for you.

[black magick hustla]

this thread is ridiculous. someone should trash it. whats next, someone is going to post why he cant go to class while keepin his dick out??? whats this nonsense

[h0m0revolutionary]

this thread is ridiculous. someone should trash it. whats next, someone is going to post why he cant go to class while keepin his dick out??? whats this nonsense


That's just stupid, there is a completely legitimate concern here. What defines for example respectability?

I think there's an interesting analysis to be had of the model employee image and if that corresponds to the steriotypical middle-class presenting individual.

Furhtermoe what danger do employers see in people with piercings, tatoo's, vibrant hair styles etc? Do customers really care?

There is a debate to be had..

[Jimmie Higgins]

I think that's a bit harsh. It's true that this is how you will be treated in capitalist society, but Marxists and Anarchists should always defend the rights of people to appear however they like.

First of all, getting rid of dress codes only helps workers while taking this petty power away from our bosses.

Second, mistreatment of people who dress "alternative" is closely linked with other kinds of discrimination such as homophobia and so on.

You can't get a job dressed like a punk - neither could you get a job if you were transgender. Places that won't let someone wear piercings is probably also not very forgiving of people wearing political or labor pins.

[black magick hustla]

That's just stupid, there is a completely legitimate concern here. What defines for example respectability?

I think there's an interesting analysis to be had of the model employee image and if that corresponds to the steriotypical middle-class presenting individual.

Furhtermoe what danger do employers see in people with piercings, tatoo's, vibrant hair styles etc? Do customers really care?

There is a debate to be had..

my point is not of defending any sort of "respectability". i dont care if you pierce your cock with a rabbit shaped gem and serve a burguer while naked. i would prolly be delighted.

i just think this is absolutely trivial and ridiculous for a thread in this forum. its something that can be quickly solved by not dressing like that. i mean it kindof sucks but seriously why is this so important? how is this comparable to any sort of discrimination?

honestly i find it a little sad that people identify too much with the stupid and boring premanufactured role they consume to the point that they come to a leftist forum to whine how wal mart doesnt find as cool their dumb septum piercing as they do.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Well, you can say if you're black and in the US, you can't have your hair braided at work because people will think you're a gangster. That's not trivial, that's racism.

Anti-capitalists should always defend the right of people to look however they like unless there is some kind of practical concern (like don't wear dresses without underwear on the catwalk of a construction site or wear things that might get caught in machinery). Doing otherwise and telling people they should wear boss-dictated clothing is basically siding with the bosses.

[black magick hustla]

Well, you can say if you're black and in the US, you can't have your hair braided at work because people will think you're a gangster. That's not trivial, that's racism.

Anti-capitalists should always defend the right of people to look however they like unless there is some kind of practical concern (like don't wear dresses without underwear on the catwalk of a construction site or wear things that might get caught in machinery). Doing otherwise and telling people they should wear boss-dictated clothing is basically siding with the bosses.




well well well, how is it a concern to not wear underwear on the catwalk beyond what a bunch of christian soccer moms would think? you cant have the whole pie and eat it young man.

i think saying you cant have hair braided at work is trivial.

i dont think they "should wear" boss dictated clothes. i think they should go naked for all i care. i think this is trivial though and trivializes everything by naming such a stupid thread as "punk discrimination" though.

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

You shouldn't be discriminated against, but you will be. The questions you ask yourself are the following:

1. Is failing to conform to this norm actually fighting the injustice. (yes)
2. Is fighting this injustice worth the loss of of opportunities (subjective)

You have to consider your interests. I dress boringly, but I rarely comb my hair properly because I'm lazy. I also shave based on convenience. I lose social opportunities, perhaps, but I meet less judgmental people because of it. These are the type of people I want to attract.

When I look for a job, I would like a job where I can be myself. That is not entirely realistic. I'm willing to make minor sacrifices, which I should not have to, to receive benefits.

On one hand, society needs people like you. People are right to prioritize things as more important. Punk discrimination isn't our biggest worry in society. However, if we have to determine all revolutionary agendas based on importance, we will spend a great deal of time arguing about importance. Government introduces bills all the time that are advantageous, and people criticize them for not doing something else.

Well, you should criticize people for having the wrong priorities. You just can't spend "all" your time doing it. Even though your issue is rather trivial, it is an issue. For supposedly being committed to social justice, it is interesting how much opposition you receive. Then again, I'm one of those "it's a matter of principle" people.

[Jack]

Former punk and skin here.

Get some nice clothes, Calvin Klein etc, remove the peircings and cut your hair. You'll get a job and chicks.

[MilitantAnarchist]

Im not stupid, I know that if i shaved the mohawk and took the piercings out it would be 100times easier to get a half decent job. I do go smart to job interviews and whatever, I have tried work in a sex shop but when it came down to it the hours weren't enough, and would meen i had to quit another job. I make a fiver an hour doing various bits n bobs at the minute... but obviously that is exploitation, but its work when there is no work....
Also to the tossers who said this is a bullshit thread, try getting discriminated against and you'll understand. We all have the right to be individual and to be who we want to be.
It just doesnt seem fair that if its a job thats NOT customer facing and you have one guy with tats and one without, both qualified exactly the same, they could say 'fuck that tattoed guy'. But the problem im finding is that agencies wont even put me up for a job, and lie to me, n when i questioned them saying 'if there is no jobs, then what is that advertised in the window!' they say its not suitable... even tho it is.... If you get me :confused:

[MilitantAnarchist]

Former punk and skin here.

Get some nice clothes, Calvin Klein etc, remove the peircings and cut your hair. You'll get a job and chicks.


good point, but i dont feel comfortable in them sort of clothes, if i dressed like that i'd think 'they'd got me' haha

[black magick hustla]

actually ive faced more "discrimination" and some relatively awful stuff than some punk crying cuz his boss doesnt dig his really boring nose ring.

[MilitantAnarchist]

Oh, its a case of 'everyone is equal but some are more equal then others' is it?
I never said it was THE BIGGEST CASE OF DISCRIMINATION EVER did i?
People that dont fit your mould of a Communist Utopia to feel capitalist discrimination to ya know...

[Travieso]

I don't think your case is anything close to discrimination.

I mean, how do you think a khaki and polo wearing clean cut white dude would be treated in a punk concert?

If your case is worth of discrimination, then why we have a thread about Chavs where the majority of the posters want them dead because of the way they dress?

Some people go to far to make themselves look like they are some kind of victims

[Sam_b]

Also to the tossers who said this is a bullshit thread, try getting discriminated against and you'll understand

Can that crap. Try saying that line to a migrant worker or single mother.

As much as i'm trying to empathise with your 'plight', I think you need a sense of perspective.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Unfortunately some styles of dress are seen to many people including myself as inappropriate at certain times. If i was at a funeral and someone turned up in crocs , shorts and a vest I would want them removed. Interview's are one of those times where you are expected to dress formally which means a suit and tie and a tame hair style. Its shit but its true.

[TréGuevara]

Here's the bottom line, bro. Piercings can be removed for the time of the interview and replaced. I guess the best advice here would to be to at least wear your hair in some sort of bland style, maybe even put some 1 day natural colour in it.

To those saying this isn't discrimination: how is it not? Don't say that it's not discrimination because it's something he chooses; people choose their religions, too, and if they didn't get a job because they were the wrong religion or denomination in the wrong area I would hope you would see that as discrimination. I say this as a Latino in the U.S., so I hope you won't try to tell me that I don't know what discrimination is.

[Jack]

good point, but i dont feel comfortable in them sort of clothes, if i dressed like that i'd think 'they'd got me' haha

But you'd be getting chicks and money!

Honestly I don't consider this discrimination because you go out of your way to be this way. If they were discriminating because of something you couldn't change easily, it would be a different story. But a hair cut, $100 bucks, and a trip to the Gap is all it takes to change.

[Travieso]

To those saying this isn't discrimination: how is it not?
It is discrimination.

The problem is that some people have stopped using the general sociology consensus of what "discrimination" means and have taken it too literally from a dictionary.

Everyone "discriminates" and there is nothing wrong about it.

I think some people might feel compassion for punks, as they have been strong supporters of radical leftist movements in the past.

But if that's the case, then what about about "emo discrimination"? There have been reports of violence against emos in Mexico. Of course a few people would support them and most will make jokes about it as Emos are seen as whiny kids by many of us.

Hell, the case of Chavs is a clear case of class discrimination, and there is a thread full of attacks against them as they are not seen as good political allies.

[Jazzratt]

I thought this would be about something serious. Like homophobia or racism within punk circles.

Yeah it sucks that people frown on how you dress, yeah it sucks that you find it hard to be taken seriously when fully punked up. It sucks but it doesn't suck as much as, say, being discriminated against for something you can't change like being gay or black. This whole thing seems like an exercise in straight white men trying to find something to complain about as "discrimination".

Incidentally I refuse to get a haircut and am looked down on by some for this but I don't think society treats long-haired people that look like hippies so terribly as to warrant discussion here.

[TréGuevara]

Jazzratt, please refer to your avatar for a response to your post.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I thought this would be about something serious. Like homophobia or racism within punk circles.

Yeah it sucks that people frown on how you dress, yeah it sucks that you find it hard to be taken seriously when fully punked up. It sucks but it doesn't suck as much as, say, being discriminated against for something you can't change like being gay or black. This whole thing seems like an exercise in straight white men trying to find something to complain about as "discrimination".

Incidentally I refuse to get a haircut and am looked down on by some for this but I don't think society treats long-haired people that look like hippies so terribly as to warrant discussion here.

You can change being gay and you can change being straight. You can be gay and not wear any identifying clothing. You can be black in the US and speak with a British accent and be treated better than if you used a southern US accent. But if people want to fight against having to conform in order to avoid racist or sexist or elitist stereotypes, Marxist should support that on principle.

I'm not saying that if you're in a union you should make a point to have a work stoppage because the boss said that everyone has to wear blue ties, obviously we are not that big in influence and so radical always have to pick their battles and leave others. But in general we should unequivocally say that these kinds of regulations on appearance in schools and work is wrong.

Maybe it's different backgrounds. Maybe the UK folks here are just used to uniforms. But when I was in high school, all the dress codes were directed against black kids "looking gangster" even though the long-haired metelhead was probably just as likely at my school to have weapons, get drunk, sell drugs, fight and so on. Somehow all the dress regulations involved baseball caps, cornrows, sagging pants, and any other popular hip hop styled clothing. Confederate flags on t-shirts were ok though.

[Pawn Power]

You can change being gay and you can change being straight. You can be gay and not wear any identifying clothing. You can be black in the US and speak with a British accent and be treated better than if you used a southern US accent.

What? Non of those things make one not gay or not black. And the point isn't the ability to 'hide' the 'discriminating' identity but that you, as a person are being discriminated against. Not because of how you dress or what music you like but because of who you are. You seem to have missed the whole framework of how discrimination actually affects people. I would recommend reading Fanon.

[Jimmie Higgins]

What? Non of those things make one not gay or not black. And the point isn't the ability to 'hide' the 'discriminating' identity but that you, as a person are being discriminated against. Not because of how you dress or what music you like but because of who you are. You seem to have missed the whole framework of how discrimination actually affects people. I would recommend reading Fanon.

What are you talking about? I didn't say these things made people one way or another.

My point is that restrictions on appearance are not separate from racism or sexism. Bans on piercings or certain ways of dressing are connected to this. There are no restrictions on dressing like a rich white person. There are plenty of restrictions on dress that goes against dressing too effeminate or too masculine or "too black" or "too redneck".

If you folks were around in the US in the 60's would you say that GIs are being silly when they rebelled against regulations on symbols of black power or white rock rebelliousness? I mean, it's the military after all, why would the black soldiers even try and grow afros?

[Jazzratt]

You can change being gay and you can change being straight.

You fail biology forever.


You can be gay and not wear any identifying clothing.

Yes because being forced to be secret about who you are isn't at all oppressive. Moron.


You can be black in the US and speak with a British accent and be treated better than if you used a southern US accent.

Out of interest how do you imagine a "British accent" to sound? Have you tried to change your accent recently? Are you aware of the case where a man booked a table in a perfect "received pronunciation" voice and was locked in the restaurant because people thought he was an identity fraud - the reason? He was black.


But if people want to fight against having to conform in order to avoid racist or sexist or elitist stereotypes, Marxist should support that on principle.

Yes, "racist or sexist" at least but "define "elitist". Do you mean actually classist or do you mean looking down on people who dress like pillocks?


I'm not saying that if you're in a union you should make a point to have a work stoppage because the boss said that everyone has to wear blue ties, obviously we are not that big in influence and so radical always have to pick their battles and leave others. But in general we should unequivocally say that these kinds of regulations on appearance in schools and work is wrong.

It only matters in your head. Normal people have more serious things to worry about. Bills and that sort of thing.


Maybe it's different backgrounds. Maybe the UK folks here are just used to uniforms.

I haven't worn a uniform in 5 years. The only thing that really differs in my experience is that I've seen more punks with jobs than without. Most people at my jobcentre (where the unemployed go for benefits and to look for work) look normal.


But when I was in high school, all the dress codes were directed against black kids "looking gangster" even though the long-haired metelhead was probably just as likely at my school to have weapons, get drunk, sell drugs, fight and so on. Somehow all the dress regulations involved baseball caps, cornrows, sagging pants, and any other popular hip hop styled clothing. Confederate flags on t-shirts were ok though.

What a fascinating personal anecdote. Where I went to college (I don't really know its equivalent in america. It's where you go immediately prior to university) people could wear whatever the fuck they wanted (within reason, operating dangerous equipment necessitated the removal of jewellery and that kind of thing. Perhaps that is oppressive to and people have the right to be garroted on their own necklaces.). Anecedote countering anecedote and the argument has gotten no further.

[Lamanov]

This thread isn't serious.

If I had hundred eyes I would roll them all at once.

:bored::rolleyes::rolleyes:
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
:rolleyes::rolleyes::bored:

[Killfacer]

I'm with Jazz on this one. To be honest, i don't really care. Stop dressing scruffily. There's a reason employers are less likely to employ you if you're dressed scruffily.

[MilitantAnarchist]

I dont dress scruffy, and i know how to get a job, i dont thing people are listening... i called it PUNK DISCRIMINATION purely for convinience.... i meen it more about discrimination on tattoos/piercings/hair color... and i guess on the general perception of 'punks'.... i think some of the so called lefties on here need to get their priorities straight, DISCRIMINATION IS DISCRIMINATION, no matter what it is, its a prejudice and i thought it what we were all suppose to be fighting against...
On the topic of chavs, i dont prejudge them all, and it isnt because of how they dress, and it DEFFINATLY isnt an issue of class, its a case of the fact that the majority of them are useless if you want any form of intellectual discussion on issues of working class plight, and in my expierience have alot of prejudice on other people. And though this is a bad stereo type on them, alot of them are tossers who have role models like '50cent' and are in the whole 'bling bling' and 'my hood' mentality... say im wrong all you want, in my town there is alot of this and IM NOT SAYING IT IS ALL CHAVS im saying ALOT OF THEM (because i just KNOW that you dieing to start on me).....
and also, off back on the topic i do know that it isnt the worst discrimination to face, and if your gonna get all fucking PC on me get your facts right...

[Killfacer]

I dont dress scruffy, and i know how to get a job, i dont thing people are listening... i called it PUNK DISCRIMINATION purely for convinience.... i meen it more about discrimination on tattoos/piercings/hair color... and i guess on the general perception of 'punks'.... i think some of the so called lefties on here need to get their priorities straight, DISCRIMINATION IS DISCRIMINATION, no matter what it is, its a prejudice and i thought it what we were all suppose to be fighting against...
On the topic of chavs, i dont prejudge them all, and it isnt because of how they dress, and it DEFFINATLY isnt an issue of class, its a case of the fact that the majority of them are useless if you want any form of intellectual discussion on issues of working class plight, and in my expierience have alot of prejudice on other people. And though this is a bad stereo type on them, alot of them are tossers who have role models like '50cent' and are in the whole 'bling bling' and 'my hood' mentality... say im wrong all you want, in my town there is alot of this and IM NOT SAYING IT IS ALL CHAVS im saying ALOT OF THEM (because i just KNOW that you dieing to start on me).....
and also, off back on the topic i do know that it isnt the worst discrimination to face, and if your gonna get all fucking PC on me get your facts right...

What?

People with tattoos and loads of peircings ALWAYS look scruffy. People don't employ heavily tatood people, because other people (or customers) find them intimidating.

[MilitantAnarchist]

If you read everything else i put i said a NONE CUSTOMER FACING JOB... and whats wrong with looking scruffy? you dont know me, i could be the best sort of person for the job, and you judge by appearance? Fuck you buddy, it wasnt that long ago people like you where saying the same about black people, dont you see that?
Are you one of these lefties for the sake of being lefties? Why do you think it is bad to be racist, or sexist, or homophobic? is it because its 'cool' or 'PC' or because its WRONG....

[Killfacer]

If you read everything else i put i said a NONE CUSTOMER FACING JOB... and whats wrong with looking scruffy? you dont know me, i could be the best sort of person for the job, and you judge by appearance? Fuck you buddy, it wasnt that long ago people like you where saying the same about black people, dont you see that?
Are you one of these lefties for the sake of being lefties? Why do you think it is bad to be racist, or sexist, or homophobic? is it because its 'cool' or 'PC' or because its WRONG....

Black people? You were born with tatoos and piercings were you?

Anyway you're missing my point. I completely agree with you that it's stupid. I'm just telling you that it's hardly suprising.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Let me be blunt - look like a freak and you will be treated like a freak , im not saying i give a toss what you look like but most people do ,theres a reason why I dont go to interviews with a dildo tied to my head because I will be turned down on the spot. Most interviewers have made there mind up three seconds into the interview and thats based on your appearance alone and when its the punky dude vs the guy in a suit and tie and neat and tidy hair - you aint gonna win.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Jaz,

You fail biology forever. So what bile duct produces "gay". Do they have the gay gene figured out yet? If you go to prison, or to the navy do you suddenly develop the gay gene? If homosexuality is biological, why was the gay gene so more prevalent in cultures like the ancient Greeks than in modern society and even modern Greece?

Where is the biological evidence for homosexuality? I think this is a weak foundation for the left to base its defense of homosexuality. We should defend homosexuality on principle if it is as a preference or a way some people develop sexually or as in innate trait.


Yes because being forced to be secret about who you are isn't at all oppressive. Moron. That's exactly my point. Dress codes and clothing restrictions are linked to opression! Moron.


Out of interest how do you imagine a "British accent" to sound?I think it fuckin sounds like a fuckin bloke what fuckin openens his fuckin mouth only to fuckin have every second fuckin word out of his fuckin mouth be bloody "fuckin". Fuckin hell. Don't get me fuckin wrong mate, I fuckin love the fuckin Brits.


It only matters in your head. Normal people have more serious things to worry about. Bills and that sort of thing.You only have to worry about bills?

Again, I'm not saying that priority #1 is the abolition of the "tyranny of dress codes" and we should build a movement; I'm not saying that getting rid of dress regulation could get rid of oppression; I'm saying that the response of "this is not serious" from people on the forum is wrong.

My argument is that dress codes in our society are connected to the way racism and sexism is enforced in society. Just think about the impact that the women's lib movement had on uniforms for women between the late 60s through the 80s. Uniforms for women went from mini-skirts to pants - this wasn't the direct result of protests and mobilizations against skirts or anything, this happened as a byproduct of the fight of women in workplaces to be treated by their bosses as full co-workers rather than a subservient layer of people in the workplace.

[MilitantAnarchist]

Black people? You were born with tatoos and piercings were you?

Anyway you're missing my point. I completely agree with you that it's stupid. I'm just telling you that it's hardly suprising
I no its hardly surprising, but your missing my point... surely that is one of the issues, the fact that you are being judged on your appearance.... i wasnt born like this, but i was born with a MIND OF MY OWN, i choose not to fit the mould....



Let me be blunt - look like a freak and you will be treated like a freak , im not saying i give a toss what you look like but most people do ,theres a reason why I dont go to interviews with a dildo tied to my head because I will be turned down on the spot. Most interviewers have made there mind up three seconds into the interview and thats based on your appearance alone and when its the punky dude vs the guy in a suit and tie and neat and tidy hair - you aint gonna win.


And what sort of anarchist are you? suit and tie and tidy hair?????
i do go dressed smart, and I KNOW THAT I WILL BE JUDGED ON MY APPEARENCE but my point is THAT IS WHAT IS WRONG!!!!!!! ARE FUCKING RETARDED OR SOMTHING!!!
that is what the issue is, and that is what is WRONG
that is the same thinking that imigrants, single mothers and all the other 'usual discrimated groups' feel.... but because it isnt somthing i have a support group for, it doesnt fucking make it right.... are you even thinking before you type?

[Killfacer]

I no its hardly surprising, but your missing my point... surely that is one of the issues, the fact that you are being judged on your appearance.... i wasnt born like this, but i was born with a MIND OF MY OWN, i choose not to fit the mould....



And what sort of anarchist are you? suit and tie and tidy hair?????
i do go dressed smart, and I KNOW THAT I WILL BE JUDGED ON MY APPEARENCE but my point is THAT IS WHAT IS WRONG!!!!!!! ARE FUCKING RETARDED OR SOMTHING!!!
that is what the issue is, and that is what is WRONG
that is the same thinking that imigrants, single mothers and all the other 'usual discrimated groups' feel.... but because it isnt somthing i have a support group for, it doesnt fucking make it right.... are you even thinking before you type?

If you want a fucking job, then make the effort. I would like to go to interveiws in a dressing gown, but i know i won't get the job. Therefor i wear a suit and tie.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

And what sort of anarchist are you? suit and tie and tidy hair?????

I generally make no mention of being a communist at interviews. Its you know a bad habit. (You are no more of an anarchist for having your hair pink btw



i do go dressed smart, and I KNOW THAT I WILL BE JUDGED ON MY APPEARENCE but my point is THAT IS WHAT IS WRONG!!!!!!!

Employers will judge how you dress because it implies if you will take the job seriously , somone whom takes effort in care in looking "respectable" is more likely to turn up to work on time and to work hard. Thats why they do it and I see no reason why workers collectives after the revolution will not do the same thing. Personally I wouldnt care if you are a punk or whatever but im not most people.



ARE FUCKING RETARDED OR SOMTHING!!!

Yes.



that is the same thinking that imigrants, single mothers and all the other 'usual discrimated groups' feel.... but because it isnt somthing i have a support group for,

Sorry people whom dont understand when they are dressing inappropriately do not have a support group because the dont need one. Immigrants cannot change the way they look and struggle to change the way they speak and single mothers are often stressed out and bullied in more conservative areas. These people need fucking help , idiots dont.


it doesnt fucking make it right.... are you even thinking before you type?


No I just drag my prick along the keyboard and see what letters appear on the screen.

[MilitantAnarchist]

I do dress smart, but why should i take earings out and shave my hair to look normal... if im good enough for the job then whats the problem? and if there are no customers to face, whats the problem?
On your thinking and others on here, your just talking out your arse.... A few times, ive been attacked or threatened on the way i look, had knives pulled on me ext, and i cant be the only person who looks different and gets that... So you are saying people who dont dress normal deserve that?? is that what you are telling me, on a REVOLUTIONARLY LEFT FORUM, which logo contains Communism Anti Fascist and Anarchist symbols.... your saying i should conform to this societies perception of 'normal' or face the punishment??? think on you fucking pleb

[Killfacer]

I do dress smart, but why should i take earings out and shave my hair to look normal... if im good enough for the job then whats the problem? and if there are no customers to face, whats the problem?
On your thinking and others on here, your just talking out your arse.... A few times, ive been attacked or threatened on the way i look, had knives pulled on me ext, and i cant be the only person who looks different and gets that... So you are saying people who dont dress normal deserve that?? is that what you are telling me, on a REVOLUTIONARLY LEFT FORUM, which logo contains Communism Anti Fascist and Anarchist symbols.... your saying i should conform to this societies perception of 'normal' or face the punishment??? think on you fucking pleb

Oh for fuck sake. When did i say "you deserve not to get jobs, you deserve to be beaten up etc"?

I'm saying, i know it's stupid, but it's to be expected. You shouldn't have to in an ideal world, but this is far from an ideal world.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

I do dress smart, but why should i take earings out and shave my hair to look normal... if im good enough for the job then whats the problem? and if there are no customers to face, whats the problem?

Because it looks like your not taking the job interview seriously.


On your thinking and others on here, your just talking out your arse.... A few times, ive been attacked or threatened on the way i look, had knives pulled on me ext, and i cant be the only person who looks different and gets that... So you are saying people who dont dress normal deserve that?? is that what you are telling me, on a REVOLUTIONARLY LEFT FORUM, which logo contains Communism Anti Fascist and Anarchist symbols.... your saying i should conform to this societies perception of 'normal' or face the punishment??? think on you fucking pleb

Yes I think you should be shot on sight for the way you look and preferably beaten with sticks. :rolleyes:

Also


pleb

:laugh:

[MilitantAnarchist]

I'm saying, i know it's stupid, but it's to be expected. You shouldn't have to in an ideal world, but this is far from an ideal world.
Thats what im saying... isnt that what we are fighting for here?


Sorry people whom dont understand when they are dressing inappropriately do not have a support group because the dont need one. Immigrants cannot change the way they look and struggle to change the way they speak and single mothers are often stressed out and bullied in more conservative areas. These people need fucking help , idiots dont.

I've been to interviews in a suit and tie and its made no difference, its not due to laziness or anything... I am me, and i am good at jobs ive been in.


You are no more of an anarchist for having your hair pink btw
I do know that. But it isnt a compition about who is more of an anarchist anyway, but im looking at all discrimination here, and i feel that conforming to a standard set by a middle class wanker who wants me to do the dirty shitty work, aint right....

And i do apologise to you and the other guy if im getting angry, but im probibly not putting my point across... I know having tats, piercings ext no matter how smart you dress you'll get discriminated against... the point im trying to make is that it isnt fair, and surely it is wrong isnt it?

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

I've been to interviews in a suit and tie and its made no difference, its not due to laziness or anything... I am me, and i am good at jobs ive been in.

Yes I know your you and yes Im sure you were good in your past jobs. Your employer dosent give a shit if you have punky hair and unfortunately that **** is the person who decides if you have to go to jobcentre or not.


And i do apologise to you and the other guy if im getting angry, but im probibly not putting my point across... I know having tats, piercings ext no matter how smart you dress you'll get discriminated against... the point im trying to make is that it isnt fair, and surely it is wrong isnt it?


Well in the unlikely case that I ever end up interviewing somone for a job I would juge them on weather they were the kind of person I would like to share a workplace with. Although most people use apperance as an indicator of how reliable you will be and the punk hair a tatoos dosent do you any favours im afraid.

[MilitantAnarchist]

See, i just think we are singing of different hymn sheets. I know how it feels to have shit for the way you look, and i know it aint the worst thing in the world, but its a pain in the arse for me and others like me. Dont you see that it is the same sort of prejudice that 30years ago black people couldnt get work, and still cant today. I know what your saying, but what im saying is THAT IS WHAT NEEDS TO CHANGE!
oh yea and pleb is my fave word, it cracks me up when i use it lol

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

See, i just think we are singing of different hymn sheets. I know how it feels to have shit for the way you look, and i know it aint the worst thing in the world, but its a pain in the arse for me and others like me. Dont you see that it is the same sort of prejudice that 30years ago black people couldnt get work, and still cant today. I know what your saying, but what im saying is THAT IS WHAT NEEDS TO CHANGE!

Apart from you can change how you look to get a job. Black folk cant. Also try walking though the most conservative areas in the country with a black brother young enough to be my kid , I tend to get treated like shit so please dont give me any crap about how you are being discriminated against because you dont want to sort your hair out when you go for aa job interview - yes its a pain , no i dont really care enough to do anything about it.

[MilitantAnarchist]

see your doing that bullshit tunnle vision shit... i care about your issues, i care about everyones social problems... so why dont you care about mine? because its my choice to look like this? dont you understand that? you have a Anarcho-Communist as your avatar, FREEDOM AND EQUALITY! that aint just a logo you know, it meens FREEDOM AND EQUALITY
I want you to answer that, not fucking talk around it and say all that bollocks your going on about every other time... ANSWER that....

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

I dont care about your issues because the movement has much more important priorities then fighting for the equality of members of obscure subcultures.

[MilitantAnarchist]

So you are saying you will fight for the majority of a minority.... where is the sense in that, you aint no comrade of mine, infact im embaressed that you class yourself as an Anarchist.
A muslim woman in a burkha that cant get a job is ok because she chooses her religion and can take off the burkha? where do you draw the line?

[bcbm]

where do you draw the line?

Pink hair.

Have you tried the food industry at all? The back of the house at most restaurants is full of strange hairstyles and tattoos, at least in my experience, so perhaps give that a shot.

[MilitantAnarchist]

yea im in a similar job at the moment (proper shit money n its only part time)...
im going to college soon and cant get help with rent because i have NO disabilty or NO kids, but some people here will sy that is good... so i'll have to get another shitty mcjob at dominoes or some other hellhole.....

[bcbm]

Fuck fast food. You should really try for a job in an actual restaurant. Even if you have to start as a dishwasher there are usually opportunities to move up into prep work and the like and there isn't really much experience required.

[MilitantAnarchist]

yea i was thinkin of somthing like that but the hours would fuck me over with college... never properly considered it tho, cheers for the idea mate,

[bcbm]

A lot of people do chef school and restaurant work so I imagine you could find some place that would be willing to work with your schedule.

[MilitantAnarchist]

nice one, i'll look into it... cheers mate

[Sean]

yea im in a similar job at the moment (proper shit money n its only part time)...
im going to college soon and cant get help with rent because i have NO disabilty or NO kids, but some people here will sy that is good... so i'll have to get another shitty mcjob at dominoes or some other hellhole.....
Yeah fuck those disabled wankers, they don't know how hard it is to live with discrimination! They're all sitting in college laughing while I have to get a job and THE MAN won't even let me do that. Just because I have UR A KUNT tattooed to my forehead I can't work anywhere. I had the same problem getting a job in a childrens school when I turned up in assless leather chaps and a gimp mask would you believe?. Without going into your lifestyle, because I don't think Vivienne Westwood fashion has any place in a discrimination discussion - lets remind ourselves what punk fashion represents, shall we? Now lets remind ourselves what working in a normal workplace entails? Youre walking in to an interview with "I won't conform to your shit, mate" written all over you and people don't like that, which is kind of the fun, one would assume.

[Mujer Libre]

ARE FUCKING RETARDED OR SOMTHING!!!

Please don't use "retarded" as an insult. Discriminatory language is not allowed on the boards.

Also, moving this to chit-chat as I think Discrimination isn't the right place, and the tone of the discussion is more suited to Chit-Chat.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Why not just trash this. I think Taig summed it up nicely.

[NecroCommie]

Unfortunately some styles of dress are seen to many people including myself as inappropriate at certain times. If i was at a funeral and someone turned up in crocs , shorts and a vest I would want them removed. Interview's are one of those times where you are expected to dress formally which means a suit and tie and a tame hair style. Its shit but its true.
Woo-ow! I thought you were the anarchist here. I dont excpecet anyone to dress in a "decent" dress code... ever. Not in my wedding, not in my fathers funeral, no where! All kinds of traditions that are artificial and serve no practical purpose should be abolished.

[NecroCommie]

I had Blue hair in HS. Started applying for jobs and no one would hire me after 6 months realized the hair was the problem so it went 1 month later got that 1st job. Its all part of growing up we all have to do it someday.

Huge BS. Its all part of conforming and one never "has" to do it. Sure its hard to get a job if you look weird (trust me it is) but I'd rather look weird and be out of job than succumb to their conservatist fetishes.


Dudes: I work in a customer service job, and in a conservatist one too (library upkeeper) In the first day they told to take my hat off while inside (with this I disagreed strongly! Manners are artificial and I never agreed to go by them), and to take off my "mangekyo sharingan"-contact lens. They said that they frighten the children. One year into the job I noticed that it was more of the opposite. Kids were all over the weird and "frightening" stuff I was allowed to keep, and I'm somewhat of a celebrity amongst them now.

And soon I started to remove some stuff myself. The stuff that really were bad for th job. Such as my horde of chains which stuck to my office chair once in a while, and my gothic boots which are as hot as hell. I still today keep alot of jewellry (both traditional and untraditional), my clothes are far from normal, and I even carry political insignia once in a while.

The point is that the only stuff that really were bad for the job got off by itself as anarchists often would propose. The stuff that I get a lot of positive feedback from was banned the first day. Traditions and norms serve nothing. Live and let live is what I say, I have to stand all that rap-fashion (no offense) and teenage ugliness, but I dont expect them to give up their style because of some vague standard. I have no right to interfere with their clothing and they have no right on my clothing. Its very simple really, and its really sad how so many comrades are starting to use arguments commonly associated with liberal hippies. (There are so much worse things going on so there is no right to speak of this matter)

All this talk about appearance being voluntary is BS. Religion is voluntary, yet we fight fo religious rights. If any line is drawn it is hypocritical at best, and has no real basis in any logic.


I usuallt have no problems with finding jobs, but then again Finland is quite liberal, and I am one heck of a smooth talker.:cool:

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Woo-ow! I thought you were the anarchist here. I dont excpecet anyone to dress in a "decent" dress code... ever. Not in my wedding, not in my fathers funeral, no where! All kinds of traditions that are artificial and serve no practical purpose should be abolished.

Thats funny , id go ape shit if someone dressed like a freak at somones funeral.

[NecroCommie]

Thats funny , id go ape shit if someone dressed like a freak at somones funeral.

If someone really is disrespectful, or distrupts the ceremony somehow, then I would go mad. The problem is that with appearance its usually just you. Stuff that you consider disrespectful someone else considers respectful.

Example: I was going into my grandpas' funeral. He was the grandpa of all time, so I spent two hours making my attire. My attitude was that grandpa would have been proud, and seen that I dont take his death lightly. So I even kept my hair open (which I seldomly do since my hair goes into knots easily) and used my best clothes. My parents said that it was fabulous.

What happens when I get there? My aunt goes like: "Tie your hair now and take that silly jacket off!" My best freaking jacket that looks like god!

The point is that she and I had very different oppinions on what is respectful, and there is no freaking way to claim some of those views is superior. Some manners are simply because they have been, and there rarely is any other reason, let alone better reason.

So not giving a job because: "people have expressed their seriousness by putting on a suit into job interview through the entire century" is hardly a valid reason.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Its quite obvious going to a normal funeral dressed like a punk is disrespectful and henceforth id go ape shit.

[NecroCommie]

Its quite obvious going to a normal funeral dressed like a punk is disrespectful and henceforth id go ape shit.
Nooooo... You think it is disrespectful.

And as a sidenote, I didnt go "punk" as you say.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Yes me. The person who will be going ape shit. Also i was using punk as an example.

[NecroCommie]

Yes me. The person who will be going ape shit. Also i was using punk as an example.
Ok, Its just that your choice of words were as if you were trying to say that there is a universal dress code that applies to everyone.

If I would know that someone would appear in my funeral dressed "formally", I would go apeshit. Dress code is pretty much a matter of opinion, and should be treated as such. Theres no point on choosing an employee based on his favourite colour.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Theres a broadly accepted range of manners such as not greeting people by puncing them in the balls , other manners that are the social norm inculde dressing formally at a funeral.

[NecroCommie]

Theres a broadly accepted range of manners such as not greeting people by puncing them in the balls , other manners that are the social norm inculde dressing formally at a funeral.
You know very well that punching balls and dress code do not stand on equal grounds. Dress code is just a dress code. Punching on the other hand hurts and might lead to injuries.

Yes there is a broad idea of norms. What I am trying to find out is which norms have some reasoning behind them (punching balls), and which norms are just norms for the sake of having norms (dress code). Before we continue this pointless biggering, I would like to hear what are the reasons behind the dress code. Pleasing others psychologically does not apply, since I already explained how norms are seen in a different way by different people. Saying that mainstream dress code is superior to subculture dress code is pretty much the same as saying that western dress code is superior to asian dress code.



I would rather have a job to pay the rent than the blue hair and no job.

Well this is somewhat of a personal issue for me. :D I understand if others dont feel the same.

[Killfacer]

I would rather have a job to pay the rent than the blue hair and no job.

I currently work for a insurance company in there claims office where you have to dress bussiness casual and it doesn't bother at all.

That's the crux of it. If you really do need a job, then you don't really give a damn about having some punk hair cut.

[Jack]

If you're going for an entry level low paying job it shouldn't be a problem. I know 2 mohawk'd punks (jackets, bondage pants, boots, the whole bit) who work at a CVS, but you're not going to be able to much up much beyond that.

[Pawn Power]

What are you talking about? I didn't say these things made people one way or another.

You said:
You can change being gay and you can change being straight. You can be gay and not wear any identifying clothing. You can be black in the US and speak with a British accent and be treated better than if you used a southern US accent.

One can't 'change' being gay. Gay people are discriminated against being gay, not simply because of how they dress. Dress which is stereotypically associated with with being gay is just that, a stereotype.


My point is that restrictions on appearance are not separate from racism or sexism. Bans on piercings or certain ways of dressing are connected to this. There are no restrictions on dressing like a rich white person. There are plenty of restrictions on dress that goes against dressing too effeminate or too masculine or "too black" or "too redneck".


I agree. The problem is you are putting the 'cart before the horse' in your first post. That is, these 'indicators' are not what is being discriminated against-- the people are.

[Jazzratt]

If I would know that someone would appear in my funeral dressed "formally", I would go apeshit. Dress code is pretty much a matter of opinion, and should be treated as such. Theres no point on choosing an employee based on his favourite colour.

If I ever have the good fortune of attending your funeral I will bowl up in a full, sombre suit, if only for the laugh I will have when a bunch of punks kick me out for conforming and not breaking dress codes.

[apathy maybe]

Whining fucks.

http://www.viruscomix.com/page392.html
http://www.viruscomix.com/page449.html
http://www.viruscomix.com/page466.html
http://www.viruscomix.com/page467.html

(Warning, big pics.)

[bcbm]

You know very well that punching balls and dress code do not stand on equal grounds. Dress code is just a dress code. Punching on the other hand hurts and might lead to injuries.

Acknowledging the dress code in certain situations is a sign of respect because it is a generally agreed upon societal standard. There may not be any physical harm involved, but I certainly think showing up to a funeral looking like you just crawled out of a gutter might be found somewhat offensive and, indeed, hurtful to those present. If you're really so self-centered and arrogant that wearing some stupid clothes matters more than not hurting some old lady's feelings, well... you're an asshole.


Before we continue this pointless biggering, I would like to hear what are the reasons behind the dress code. Pleasing others psychologically does not apply, since I already explained how norms are seen in a different way by different people.

Some are but there are also fairly common ones and so it can be assumed that, in fact, pleasing others psychologically does apply in these situations. Really it depends on the nature of the event itself. Some people have very formal weddings and dressing up is expected. Others have very casual weddings where you can wear whatever the hell you want. And so you'd presumably choose which would be most psychologically pleasing to those holding the wedding, unless you hate the couple or something.


Saying that mainstream dress code is superior to subculture dress code is pretty much the same as saying that western dress code is superior to asian dress code.


It doesn't really have to do with superiority but with social expectations.

[NecroCommie]

Acknowledging the dress code in certain situations is a sign of respect because it is a generally agreed upon societal standard. There may not be any physical harm involved, but I certainly think showing up to a funeral looking like you just crawled out of a gutter might be found somewhat offensive and, indeed, hurtful to those present. If you're really so self-centered and arrogant that wearing some stupid clothes matters more than not hurting some old lady's feelings, well... you're an asshole.



Some are but there are also fairly common ones and so it can be assumed that, in fact, pleasing others psychologically does apply in these situations. Really it depends on the nature of the event itself. Some people have very formal weddings and dressing up is expected. Others have very casual weddings where you can wear whatever the hell you want. And so you'd presumably choose which would be most psychologically pleasing to those holding the wedding, unless you hate the couple or something.



It doesn't really have to do with superiority but with social expectations.

I agree that consideration of other peoples feelings is important. Regardless what I have written previously, I would propably skip some happening completely rather than risk annoying someone (I would not still conform though). However, consideration is a two way thing. If people... say... walk around the streets and see me doing my job, they are more than assholes if they excpect me to change myself, merely for their convenience. I dont tell my fellow worker how to dress, but I excpect him/her to show the same courtesy.

Employers are no different than the rest of the people, except that they have bourgeoisie priviledges. Why should these material relations give them some holy power that the rest of the populace are not entitled to? After all, you would not be arrogant enough to go to a stranger and tell him to completely change his/her attire for good, simply because yours is different. Would you?

As to superiority: Thats what I am trying to say! Different social groups have different social expectations. Why should the social expectations of the mainstream culture be superior to those of subcultures? Understanding between them is required, I understand, but why should the understanding be a one way thing? Why arent mainstream fellow workers required to understand subcultural norms, as we are expected to understand theirs?

[NecroCommie]

If I ever have the good fortune of attending your funeral I will bowl up in a full, sombre suit, if only for the laugh I will have when a bunch of punks kick me out for conforming and not breaking dress codes.
But you would be breaking dress codes for that happening. Besides, that is not a very intelligent thing to say from a man who demands conforming due to consideration of fellow beings.

[MilitantAnarchist]

That's the crux of it. If you really do need a job, then you don't really give a damn about having some punk hair cut.

Surely an employer should meet me half way? If ive toned everything down, wearing smart clothes.... why should i change who i am to help out capitalism for somthing small in exchange???
Of course i need a job, but i have principles.
I think this has become more of a reflection on others, because it seems to me people will sell themselves out so easily for a slice of the pie in a fucking insurance company!
And why is it ok to discriminate against someone with piercings and tattoos, and not any one else? All i see is trendy lefties giving it the 'but your not black, disabled, gay or female! so its not discrimination....'

Isnt that homophobic, sexist, racist n whatever in itself? Saying that these people DESERVE EQUALITY, when to me it isnt something that you should be a forced emotion, it is attitudes towards the discrimination that need to change... your just as bad as the rest of them you just dont see it because your head is so far up your own arse...

Follow your heart, not MTV tells you is right and wrong...

[communard resolution]

See, i just think we are singing of different hymn sheets. I know how it feels to have shit for the way you look, and i know it aint the worst thing in the world, but its a pain in the arse for me and others like me. Dont you see that it is the same sort of prejudice that 30years ago black people couldnt get work, and still cant today. I know what your saying, but what im saying is THAT IS WHAT NEEDS TO CHANGE!
oh yea and pleb is my fave word, it cracks me up when i use it lol

Look, I respect you for not wanting to conform to a norm that you see no purpose in. Personally, I've experienced both types of discrimination - for dressing up outlandishly when I was a teenager, as well as for one or two things that I cannot change ('proper' discrimination by this board's standards). I know that both types of discrimination hurt, and I know that both can lead to getting your head kicked in, or worse.

When it comes to job hunting, however, it's not like your potential employer hates you for looking that way - all they want to see is that you're bright enough to make an effort and put on a good act if required. They want you to dress up well for the interview, carry yourself with confindence, give all the answers they expect to hear even though they know you're lying, and ideally charm them on top of that. Job interviews are really more more like rituals, and all they want to see is that you grasp the rules of the game and can act accordingly.

If you walk in dressed in an inappropriate manner, it's not so much that they feel disrespected, it's more that they think you're really hapless and haven't got a clue how to get even get past stage 1.

I second some other posters in recommending you go to your local H&M, get yourself a set of formal clothes, take out your piercings for the occassion and carry yourself with confidence. Once you get the job, you can gradually go back to being your real self. And if you can't - well, maybe it's not the right work environment for you anyway.

Also, there are plenty of job opportunities where alternative looking people are prefferred over nondescript looking people.

Imagine you're auditioning bassists for your new punk band. The first guy walks in and looks like Sid Vicious or like some guy out of The Casualties. The second guy wears a suit and tie and looks like a banker - or maybe like Nickelback. Both play fairly well. Which one are you gonna pick?

Stop whining (take this as a friendly kick in the ass rather than an insult), get the job, then do what you want.

[MilitantAnarchist]

Look, I respect you for not wanting to conform to a norm that you see no purpose in. Personally, I've experienced both types of discrimination - for dressing up outlandishly when I was a teenager, as well as for one or two things that I cannot change ('proper' discrimination by this board's standards). I know that both types of discrimination hurt, and I know that both can lead to getting your head kicked in, or worse.

When it comes to job hunting, however, it's not like your potential employer hates you for looking that way - all they want to see is that you're bright enough to make an effort and put on a good act if required. They want you to dress up well for the interview, carry yourself with confindence, give all the answers they expect to hear even though they know you're lying, and ideally charm them on top of that. Job interviews are really more more like rituals, and all they want to see is that you grasp the rules of the game and can act accordingly.

If you walk in dressed in an inappropriate manner, it's not so much that they feel disrespected, it's more that they think you're really hapless and haven't got a clue how to get even get past stage 1.

I second some other posters in recommending you go to your local H&M, get yourself a set of formal clothes, take out your piercings for the occassion and carry yourself with confidence. Once you get the job, you can gradually go back to being your real self. And if you can't - well, maybe it's not the right job for you anyway.

Also, there are plenty of job opportunities where alternative looking people are prefferred over nondescript looking people.

Imagine you're auditioning bassists for your new punk band. The first guy walks in and looks like Sid Vicious or like some guy out of The Casualties. The second guy wears a suit and tie and looks like a banker - or maybe like Nickelback. Both play fairly well. Which one are you gonna pick?

Stop whining (take this as a friendly kick in the ass rather than an insult), get the job, then do what you want.


Well put mate, and i get what you are saying. But if im in a suit, and even IF i shave off my hair (which i wont) i still have tats and piercings. Piercings can be taken out i know, but tattoos cant, and lots of people are discriminated against for having them... Surely that aint right?

[communard resolution]

Well put mate, and i get what you are saying. But if im in a suit, and even IF i shave off my hair (which i wont) i still have tats and piercings. Piercings can be taken out i know, but tattoos cant, and lots of people are discriminated against for having them... Surely that aint right?

It ain't right, but that's just the way it is. It ain't right that you pick the Casualties guy over the Nickelback one even though they both play well. I see plenty of alternative looking people holding jobs. Maybe just move to a bigger/more liberal town if you're desperate.

[communard resolution]

Follow your heart, not MTV tells you is right and wrong...

You would probably have pretty good chances of finding employment at MTV, by the way. Unlike some of the minorities that 'trendy lefties', as you call them, tend to feel protective about.

[MilitantAnarchist]

Maybe just move to a bigger/more liberal town if you're desperate.
Funny you should say that, im moving to Bristol soon...
Actually tho, you are wrong, if i was choosing for a band, it would be on political beleifs rather then appearance, i was in a band (didnt last long tho) but there was only me and another guy that looked 'conventional punk'... the other three was a busker, a middleaged feminist, and a straightedge guy.... i dont discriminate and i dont expect others to

[MilitantAnarchist]

You would probably have pretty good chances of finding employment at MTV, by the way. Unlike some of the minorities that 'trendy lefties', as you call them, tend to feel protective about.
I was using MTV as an insult. There are plenty of trendy lefties that dont beleive what they say... they just act the part to fit in, and that is bollocks.
And on the subject of MTV, i wouldnt work there if it paid a fortune! It is the worst of all tv channles, its full of trashy corporate music, constant advertisements, decadent tv shows, and sugar coated attractive shite, it destroys what imagination our youth has.... FUCK MTV

[communard resolution]

And on the subject of MTV, i wouldnt work there if it paid a fortune!

Say, do you really not see that there are people who haven't even got the luxury to choose whether working at MTV is somewhat below their high-minded standards or not? Are you aware that most of the world's population fall in that category?

[Robespierre2.0]

fuck punk rock and fuck dressing differently.

we're communists, for chrissakes! everyone should wear a gray zhongshan suit.

[StalinFanboy]

fuck punk rock
Not cool man. Not cool.

The music is fucking top notch. Not so much the fashion...

[JerseyDevil]

I used to have a mohawk, (it was mad tall, but I was too lazy for it) and people looked at me weird at school. I don't have a job or anything, but if I did, I couldn't imagine myself working some place that would have a beef with me over it. Actually, I couldn't imagine myself working in a place whatsoever, but that's not the point.

[ls]

What Sean said.

And seriously:

try getting discriminated against and you'll understand
..
think on you fucking pleb


In the immortal words of John McEnroe.. YOU CAN NOT BE SERIOUS!

[Yazman]

I can't get over you prudish middle class fucks whinging about how he should "look normal."

What the hell? Yes he can choose it but for example, I know I wouldn't be able to afford the $100 or so it would cost to get new clothes, a haircut and hair dye. Sure if you have shitloads of money you can just go around buying everything you feel like buying but not all of us have that luxury.

I have to wonder what you people would be saying if this was 1950 and he was a woman complaining about not being able to get jobs wearing pants or a miniskirt. Its stupid fucking discrimination. Nobody should have to change who they are just for the sake of a job and while I've never had to deal with this myself personally, I can sympathise with it because its ridiculous bullshit. Employers should be hiring based on individual merit and not stupid criteria like how a person appears.

Maybe some of you are money whores who will sell your souls for a few bucks, but we shouldn't have to do that. Thats what we're fighting against and you're all defending it!

What the fuck.

[ls]

I can't get over you prudish middle class fucks whinging about how he should "look normal."

Yeah but where does it end? We had one idiot in here going on about "wearing what I want to a funeral", I can't get over that myself but hey.


What the hell? Yes he can choose it but for example, I know I wouldn't be able to afford the $100 or so it would cost to get new clothes, a haircut and hair dye. Sure if you have shitloads of money you can just go around buying everything you feel like buying but not all of us have that luxury.

He's not even using that as an argument anyway.


I have to wonder what you people would be saying if this was 1950 and he was a woman complaining about not being able to get jobs wearing pants or a miniskirt.

That's entirely different and you know it.


Its stupid fucking discrimination. Nobody should have to change who they are just for the sake of a job

But it's what happens under the current system, we must make certain sacrifices if we want to survive properly under it, moreover since when did how you appear absolutely equal "who you are", isn't this meant to be about not judging a book by its cover, if that's the case then what was that all about?


Maybe some of you are money whores who will sell your souls for a few bucks, but we shouldn't have to do that. Thats what we're fighting against and you're all defending it!

What the fuck.

No not defending it, many people are aware that's not how it should be. Some people simply pointed out there are levels.. and when it comes to ridiculous things like people dressing "how I want to man" at a funeral, that's where it must come to a stop.

In summary; yes you're right to an extent but you're also wrong.

[Yazman]

Yeah but where does it end? We had one idiot in here going on about "wearing what I want to a funeral", I can't get over that myself but hey.

It ends at the parameters that were set from the very beginning - where it applies to the criteria imposed upon job applicants.


He's not even using that as an argument anyway.

I'm not arguing FOR him. I'm stating my own views here. A lot of people in here fail to realise that not everybody that comes here has shitloads of money that they can just casually spend every time they go for a job interview.


That's entirely different and you know it.

In the context that it was a part of sexism you're right, but in the sense that women who wore miniskirts or pants were much more heavily discriminated against than those who conformed to dress codes its similar. Yes he can change it, but so can a refugee! For example, in my job I work with refugees and I help them get adjusted, help them fight against cases of discrimination etc. and many of the men have cultural markings (ritual scarification) that are done in some south sudanese tribes as a rite of passage. Sometimes these scars and markings are quite prominent and they can't just be changed at a whim - its just like a tattoo, except even more prominent in some cases. Some of these men have routinely faced discrimination in job interviews as a result of this - what are they to do? Its nothing to do with their ethnicity as some here might claim -absolutely nothing to do with their skin colour. Should refugees be forced to abandon their culture and instead "assimilate?" Should any culture that is unique, whether homegrown or imported by immigrants or refugees, be forced to abandon everything that makes them who they are, just for the sake of a boss?

I say no.


But it's what happens under the current system, we must make certain sacrifices if we want to survive properly under it,

I believe that he just wanted to discuss it and find out if there were others who thought this was ridiculous cultural discrimination. Also I think that this statement of yours is a copout - capitalism happens under the current system too, but that doesn't mean we condone it. That we "do what we need to survive" doesn't mean we have to condone it in our theory or discussion, or that we have to actually believe it.

I do things that I absolutely fucking hate doing, and in a post-capitalist society would never even entertain the idea of doing.. and yet at every turn I still oppose them with all my might psychologically and theoretically! Doing it doesn't mean you have to believe the reasoning behind it, or make it forbidden to discuss.


moreover since when did how you appear absolutely equal "who you are", isn't this meant to be about not judging a book by its cover, if that's the case then what was that all about?

Can you re-word this? I can't figure out what you're trying to ask here.


No not defending it, many people are aware that's not how it should be. Some people simply pointed out there are levels.. and when it comes to ridiculous things like people dressing "how I want to man" at a funeral, that's where it must come to a stop.

Ah, but a funeral is a social ritual and usually a religious one and so it is inherently different to what we're talking about. Its also completely irrelevant because it is entirely outside of the parameters that were set for the discussion - job interviews and hiring people based on merit versus prejudice.

[Patchd]

Work in a gay bar, I did, and they didn't mind my (back in 'day) bihawk, boots, piercings, tattoos etc...

[bcbm]

Surely an employer should meet me half way? If ive toned everything down, wearing smart clothes.... why should i change who i am to help out capitalism for somthing small in exchange???

Because we live in an imperfect and ugly world and that's the reality of it. You shouldn't have to, but unfortunately you do, or will, if you want to get beyond a basic sustenance level, short of finding a niche that allows you to basically do what you want. It shouldn't be this way, of course, but this is the world we live in and when we're talking basic discrimination based on personal choices, there isn't a whole lot you can do about it right now, though the world has certainly become more friendly towards people of different aesthetics. If its a fight you want to carry on, good luck, but I can see why some people see it as a bit flippant.


Of course i need a job, but i have principles.
I think this has become more of a reflection on others, because it seems to me people will sell themselves out so easily for a slice of the pie in a fucking insurance company!

Yeah, well, I have to pay the rent, pay my bills and feed myself so forgive me if some personal aesthetic choices fall a bit lower on the ladder.

[ls]

It ends at the parameters that were set from the very beginning - where it applies to the criteria imposed upon job applicants.

And it will continue and continue until everything is supposed to be individualistic even in a completely unideal world.



I'm not arguing FOR him. I'm stating my own views here. A lot of people in here fail to realise that not everybody that comes here has shitloads of money that they can just casually spend every time they go for a job interview.

Of course, but that at least seems irrelevant in this thread.



In the context that it was a part of sexism you're right, but in the sense that women who wore miniskirts or pants were much more heavily discriminated against than those who conformed to dress codes its similar. Yes he can change it, but so can a refugee! For example, in my job I work with refugees and I help them get adjusted, help them fight against cases of discrimination etc. and many of the men have cultural markings (ritual scarification) that are done in some south sudanese tribes as a rite of passage. Sometimes these scars and markings are quite prominent and they can't just be changed at a whim - its just like a tattoo, except even more prominent in some cases. Some of these men have routinely faced discrimination in job interviews as a result of this - what are they to do? Its nothing to do with their ethnicity as some here might claim -absolutely nothing to do with their skin colour. Should refugees be forced to abandon their culture and instead "assimilate?" Should any culture that is unique, whether homegrown or imported by immigrants or refugees, be forced to abandon everything that makes them who they are, just for the sake of a boss?

That's not the same at all, again an amazing comparison.


I believe that he just wanted to discuss it and find out if there were others who thought this was ridiculous cultural discrimination.

It is but there are much more important issues we could be focusing on than this, the cultural discrimination you describe against refugees is wholly different.


Also I think that this statement of yours is a copout - capitalism happens under the current system too, but that doesn't mean we condone it. That we "do what we need to survive" doesn't mean we have to condone it in our theory or discussion, or that we have to actually believe it.

And you can go to a job interview like that and be rejected if you want, it's your call, maybe you'll get lucky and get the job - congrats if you do, just don't expect to, no it's not fair but you can't expect sympathy or empathy when there's such bigger issues in the workplace we could be getting workers to focus on.


I do things that I absolutely fucking hate doing, and in a post-capitalist society would never even entertain the idea of doing.. and yet at every turn I still oppose them with all my might psychologically and theoretically! Doing it doesn't mean you have to believe the reasoning behind it, or make it forbidden to discuss.

You aren't forbidden to discuss it, it's just unfair to expect people to think IT MUST BE DONE LIKE THIS AND YOU MUST HAVE SYMPATHY FOR ME - no just no.


Can you re-word this? I can't figure out what you're trying to ask here.

You said:
Nobody should have to change who they are just for the sake of a job

I was saying that this topic is inherently about not judging a book by its cover, the fact that you equate "who you are" with how you look is in direct contradiction to that central theme. Yes I know some people have strong feelings about how they look, but it really is not everything. That's supposed to be the key point, it's not changing who you are for the job - it's just changing what you look like for it.


Ah, but a funeral is a social ritual and usually a religious one and so it is inherently different to what we're talking about. Its also completely irrelevant because it is entirely outside of the parameters that were set for the discussion - job interviews and hiring people based on merit versus prejudice.

It's relevant because someone brought that specific topic up in a previous post, it's also relevant because it proves my point about setting accepted boundaries. Some people will continue to believe they are able to just do what they please regardless of others in any walk of life.

[Bilan]

I can't get over you prudish middle class fucks whinging about how he should "look normal."

What the hell? Yes he can choose it but for example, I know I wouldn't be able to afford the $100 or so it would cost to get new clothes, a haircut and hair dye. Sure if you have shitloads of money you can just go around buying everything you feel like buying but not all of us have that luxury.

I have to wonder what you people would be saying if this was 1950 and he was a woman complaining about not being able to get jobs wearing pants or a miniskirt. Its stupid fucking discrimination. Nobody should have to change who they are just for the sake of a job and while I've never had to deal with this myself personally, I can sympathise with it because its ridiculous bullshit. Employers should be hiring based on individual merit and not stupid criteria like how a person appears.

Maybe some of you are money whores who will sell your souls for a few bucks, but we shouldn't have to do that. Thats what we're fighting against and you're all defending it!

What the fuck.


Class.
Except for the mention of a non-existant class, but w/e.

The only thing I would say is take out the piercings, and at least wear your hair down.
If need clothes: op shop. Cheap, looks good (if you find the right stuff).

If you've got tattoos, cover them up.

[Sean]

I can't get over you prudish middle class fucks whinging about how he should "look normal."
Yaz, the point is that we have a person who deliberately dresses to shock people and display the fact that he doesn't give a fuck, then having the audacity to complain that he is being discriminated against because people take the message he has spent so much effort sending out at face value. You cannot have it both ways. Also, get a second hand suit, someone's probably died in it but the price is right. I am neither prudish nor middle class - deliberately trying to shock people 99 times then crying when people get shocked once when you actually want something is just silly.

[Yazman]

Yaz, the point is that we have a person who deliberately dresses to shock people and display the fact that he doesn't give a fuck, then having the audacity to complain that he is being discriminated against because people take the message he has spent so much effort sending out at face value. You cannot have it both ways. Also, get a second hand suit, someone's probably died in it but the price is right. I am neither prudish nor middle class - deliberately trying to shock people 99 times then crying when people get shocked once when you actually want something is just silly.

This is a good point, and I agree with you in a general sense. However the guy has said multiple times, every single one of which you people seem to be ignoring, that he does not dress like he normally does for job interviews. That he has piercings and tattoos should not be reason to reject him for a job when he's qualified to do it. If it was just about clothes I would agree with you, but he's already said dozens of times now that its not about the clothes he wears because he wears what you would call "normal" clothes to job interviews.


And you can go to a job interview like that and be rejected if you want, it's your call, maybe you'll get lucky and get the job - congrats if you do, just don't expect to, no it's not fair but you can't expect sympathy or empathy when there's such bigger issues in the workplace we could be getting workers to focus on.

I think you missed my point, not to mention the fact that you seem to be actually saying this to me when I've already stated I don't have this problem. I'm not a punk, I don't have any piercings, and I don't have any tattoos that can be seen by anybody when I'm wearing clothes of any kind. Its not something I have to deal with. My point was that you seem to think that we need to fundamentally change our views and opinions for the sake of satisfying capitalists.


I was saying that this topic is inherently about not judging a book by its cover, the fact that you equate "who you are" with how you look is in direct contradiction to that central theme. Yes I know some people have strong feelings about how they look, but it really is not everything. That's supposed to be the key point, it's not changing who you are for the job - it's just changing what you look like for it.

I don't equate "who you are" with how you look, but often how a person adorns themselves, be it with jewellery, body modification (tattoos, scarification, piercings), or clothing, is an important part of how they self identify. This was more in reference to the refugees who are discriminated against in a cultural context because there is great pressure for them to "just assimilate and be normal like everybody else." It can (and often does) apply to any minority culture or subculture, yet you have dismissed this at every turn (it would be better if you would provide an argument against it). They are "other" and therefore its ok to have prejudices against them. Just because such adornment was chosen (be it religious clothing like a hijab or a turban, ritual scarification, or even tattoos) it doesn't mean that discrimination against them is somehow "ok."

[Patchd]

If you're lucky you'll have a decent employer, I had a teacher in my school for example who was a trad skin from back in 'day, taught me geography and gave me Revolution Betrayed, I think he was WRP but not sure. Anyway, he had quite a fair few piercings down his left ear! :p

[ls]

I think you missed my point..My point was that you seem to think that we need to fundamentally change our views and opinions for the sake of satisfying capitalists.

No, my point was not aimed at you in that post but rather at pointing out we may need to adjust our views to satisfy ourselves. In the end of the day, a job is not usually just for fun (although I'm not saying it shouldn't be fun, it should be something you like doing).


This was more in reference to the refugees who are discriminated against in a cultural context because there is great pressure for them to "just assimilate and be normal like everybody else." It can (and often does) apply to any minority culture or subculture

The two are not the same thing, discriminating against cultures usually includes much more ignorance than subcultures.

I don't like discrimination against subcultures at all yet am willing to concede that the world isn't perfect so it stands to reason you may have to make certain concessions in contradiction to what you stand for to help yourself in the long run - by all means you can be resentful about it and that's fine.

The OP appears to expect sympathy and understanding where I do not believe he should, this is nowhere near as important as other kinds of discrimination in the context of jobs.

[NecroCommie]

The two are not the same thing, discriminating against cultures usually includes much more ignorance than subcultures.
Based on... ? You just simply stated that they are different. I got this point already, but I have not heard a shread of argument on why they are different (provided they truly are).

So, to put it very simply: What is the difference between cultural identity that comes from abroad, and a cultural identity that has western subcultural origins? What does it mean that there is more ignorance in immigrant discrimination? Ignorance regarding what? According to my personal experience the thing is quite opposite.

In the case of job interview that is.


I don't like discrimination against subcultures at all yet am willing to concede that the world isn't perfect so it stands to reason you may have to make certain concessions in contradiction to what you stand for to help yourself in the long run - by all means you can be resentful about it and that's fine.
If you were to use this argument against middle eastern customs (non-religious ones) you would be labeled a racist sympathiser. (which I dont claim you are)


The OP appears to expect sympathy and understanding where I do not believe he should, this is nowhere near as important as other kinds of discrimination in the context of jobs.
Why? I really want to hear why are subcultural identities inferior to other kinds of cultural identities? Religion is a matter of choice, yet we fight for religious freedoms.

[ls]

Based on... ? You just simply stated that they are different. I got this point already, but I have not heard a shread of argument on why they are different (provided they truly are).

They just are, it's obvious to the beholder they are, to claim they are the same is absurdly stupid.


So, to put it very simply: What is the difference between cultural identity that comes from abroad, and a cultural identity that has western subcultural origins?

The difference is that it isn't racial discrimination.


What does it mean that there is more ignorance in immigrant discrimination? Ignorance regarding what? According to my personal experience the thing is quite opposite.

In the case of job interview that is.


I'm not saying that it's more or less common, I said there's more ignorance in it.. in that it requires you to judge someone more aesthetically than if it's with a subculture. Please cite your personal experience if you feel it would help, you've yet to convince me.


If you were to use this argument against middle eastern customs (non-religious ones) you would be labeled a racist sympathiser. (which I dont claim you are)

Because course middle-eastern customs are entirely subcultural, just like the chav subculture in England, sorry, my bad.


Why? I really want to hear why are subcultural identities inferior to other kinds of cultural identities? Religion is a matter of choice, yet we fight for religious freedoms.

Religion isn't a subculture. I also never said they are inferior or superior, just that people who discriminate based on cultural identity must necessarily be more ignorant within their decision, what's so hard to understand?

[Wanted Man]

Well, it's not an easy thing to judge. Over here, we also have employers who refuse to employ any woman who shows too much skin, muslimas wearing a veil, etc. Or clubs that refuse anyone who wears clothes associated with hip hop (blacks or Moroccan or Turkish immigrants, most of the time). So discrimination in that area definitely exists, and often coincides with sexism or racism.

Of course, if you have pink hair, that's your choice. I, a white guy without pink hair, have a good chance of getting accepted. But a Moroccan immigrant in a nice suit will probably not even get the chance to apply, they will just throw away his CV because it has the name "Ahmed" on it... So I would advice people to get some perspective!


Whining fucks.

http://www.viruscomix.com/page392.html
http://www.viruscomix.com/page449.html
http://www.viruscomix.com/page466.html
http://www.viruscomix.com/page467.html

(Warning, big pics.)
I actually liked this.

[NecroCommie]

They just are, it's obvious to the beholder they are, to claim they are the same is absurdly stupid.
Why? Please explain to me since I am having hard time to understand.



The difference is that it isn't racial discrimination.
I was not talking about discrimination at all, but identity. So if a muslim says this scarf makes her feel like shes part of her culture, how is it different from a metalhead who says hes ankle length hair makes him feel he is part of his culture?

Now if there is no difference, why should the forced conforming of the previous be more discriminatory than the forced conforming of the latter?

These two questions are quite central to the whole conversation.



I'm not saying that it's more or less common, I said there's more ignorance in it.. in that it requires you to judge someone more aesthetically than if it's with a subculture. Please cite your personal experience if you feel it would help, you've yet to convince me.

From numerous conversations with people, I've gathered that people have some basic knowledge about foreign cultures, mainly their customs and religions. For example my current employer always asks the muslim employees upon job interview whether they want to have praying brakes. (he shouldn't, since it shouldn't matter).

Yet majority still thinks all punks can do is take drugs and break windows, and rappers are sexist. Metalheads are so numerous here that they have somewhat cleaned the reputation of satanism, but I doubt the situation is similar in the states for example.



Religion isn't a subculture. I also never said they are inferior or superior, just that people who discriminate based on cultural identity must necessarily be more ignorant within their decision, what's so hard to understand?

Yes, you are right. Religion is not a subculture, but it is a matter of choice. This is proven by the numerous conversions that happen all the time. So the argument that cultural identity is a matter of choice is hardly a valid one if one fights for religious freedom simultaneously.

The "superior inferior"-metaphor comes from the logic(?) that if all matters of choices should be free, yet we fight only for the religious and foreign freedoms, the subcultural freedoms must be somehow inferior.

No, it is not hard to understand, but some of your arguments are based on the assumption that subcultural identities are somehow less valuable and easier to just throw away than foreign cultural identities. This is especially hard thing since we have yet to agree on the matter.

All this coupled with my examples, which are trying to say: "subcultural identities do not dramatically differ from foreign cultural identities", are just a bad combination. I am OK if people would just prioritize foreign cultural discrimination. But some seem to think that subcultural discrimination is not an issue at all. That is what I have a problem with, and the fact that the entire issue is artificially skipped by the notion that we leftists critisize conservatists of: "There is some worse thing going on so this is useless conversation"

[MilitantAnarchist]

So far we have discovered that people on here will sell out to the highest bidder and let someone who isn't a 'normal discrimination case' rot in the dole queue...


Say, do you really not see that there are people who haven't even got the luxury to choose whether working at MTV is somewhat below their high-minded standards or not? Are you aware that most of the world's population fall in that category?

its not about high standards and luxury, its to do with MORALS! So what about strike action? are you opposed to that, 'no its ok, dont strike they need the money'... fuck that mate, if you aint got a fucking spine you aint no use to a revolutionary process are you?


In the immortal words of John McEnroe.. YOU CAN NOT BE SERIOUS!

Yes i fucking can mate, i no other people feel discrimination and i can EMPATHISE with them, where you can probibly only SYMPATHISE by the way you are talking... i have got a shit job now, but i was turned away as a shelf stacker in two corporate music shops on account i didnt look right, even when i went dressed smart...


fuck punk rock and fuck dressing differently.

we're communists, for chrissakes! everyone should wear a gray zhongshan suit.

If you aint joking... you are a joke....


I can't get over you prudish middle class fucks whinging about how he should "look normal."

Well said mate, couldnt of put it better myself


Yeah, well, I have to pay the rent, pay my bills and feed myself so forgive me if some personal aesthetic choices fall a bit lower on the ladder.

There was alot of that 'its my job, i had to survive' talk at Auschwitz, it doesnt wash with me. Same as i said to the other wanker, would you sell a strike down the drain for a bit of 'cash'?


Also, get a second hand suit, someone's probably died in it but the price is right.
i get 90% of my clothes from charity shops and out of 'donation skips' and whatever, i rarely pay more then £2 for any of my clothes and even rarer by new... unless it is the 'consumer' in me wanting a nice tshirt, but even then its made by the person im buying off so that £5 for a new tshirt helps no fat cat out (its a punk thing, i wouldnt expect a capitalist minded person to understand)...
And the topic here was discrimination... it is clear to me now ive felt no support from majority of my so called comrades... your just capitalists/fascists with hats on.... Anyone who has claimed themselves to be an anarchist is a fucking con, you dont understand the real issues we are suppose to be fighting... Equality is nowt more then a word to you... BOLLOCKS TO YOU PART TIME WANNABES, you have seriously made me depressed....

[ls]

Why? Please explain to me since I am having hard time to understand.

I've explained more than enough.


I was not talking about discrimination at all, but identity. So if a muslim says this scarf makes her feel like shes part of her culture, how is it different from a metalhead who says hes ankle length hair makes him feel he is part of his culture?

Subcultures are different from just cultures, you can not draw absolute comparisons like that.


Now if there is no difference, why should the forced conforming of the previous be more discriminatory than the forced conforming of the latter?

There just is a difference.


These two questions are quite central to the whole conversation.

Your continual failure to understand what I'm getting at is tiring me out, I'll not continue to peg it at you.


From numerous conversations with people, I've gathered that people have some basic knowledge about foreign cultures, mainly their customs and religions.

For some, that can serve to make them more forcefully ignorant, not less, about the culture and customs in question.


For example my current employer always asks the muslim employees upon job interview whether they want to have praying brakes. (he shouldn't, since it shouldn't matter).

In your opinion what should he instead do?


Yes, you are right. Religion is not a subculture, but it is a matter of choice. This is proven by the numerous conversions that happen all the time. So the argument that cultural identity is a matter of choice is hardly a valid one if one fights for religious freedom simultaneously.

Not in the context of the workplace, it's entirely relevant, plus this is subcultural identity (for the millionth time) not just cultural identity.


The "superior inferior"-metaphor comes from the logic(?) that if all matters of choices should be free, yet we fight only for the religious and foreign freedoms, the subcultural freedoms must be somehow inferior.

Not inferior but more common and worse for the person experiencing them at the workplace, I have never once said any of this is inferior or superior.


No, it is not hard to understand, but some of your arguments are based on the assumption that subcultural identities are somehow less valuable and easier to just throw away than foreign cultural identities. This is especially hard thing since we have yet to agree on the matter.

I never said to just 'throw away' subcultural identities or that they are 'less valuable'.


I am OK if people would just prioritize foreign cultural discrimination. But some seem to think that subcultural discrimination is not an issue at all. That is what I have a problem with, and the fact that the entire issue is artificially skipped by the notion that we leftists critisize conservatists of: "There is some worse thing going on so this is useless conversation"

Where did I say it's "not an issue at all", now you're just continuously twisting and putting words into my mouth, pointless because it ain't what I've been saying.


So far we have discovered that people on here will sell out to the highest bidder and let someone who isn't a 'normal discrimination case' rot in the dole queue...

Don't be annoying, this is largely down to you and you know it.


its not about high standards and luxury, its to do with MORALS! So what about strike action? are you opposed to that, 'no its ok, dont strike they need the money'... fuck that mate, if you aint got a fucking spine you aint no use to a revolutionary process are you?

This stuff that you are talking about is NOT revolutionary.


Yes i fucking can mate

You do realise that pleb is an insult used against 'lower-class' people to denote that they are 'commoners'?


i no other people feel discrimination and i can EMPATHISE with them, where you can probibly only SYMPATHISE by the way you are talking... i have got a shit job now, but i was turned away as a shelf stacker in two corporate music shops on account i didnt look right, even when i went dressed smart...

I don't empathise or sympathise with you and your selfish demands in context with the situation at hand, at the workplace, where people face much larger issues than that.

And for the record, as we're assuming what one another is saying, I assume that you saying 'pleb' must mean you think of yourself as bourgeoisie - how about that? It makes perfect sense after all, unlike your lame unfounded assumption.



There was alot of that 'its my job, i had to survive' talk at Auschwitz, it doesnt wash with me. Same as i said to the other wanker, would you sell a strike down the drain for a bit of 'cash'?

Are you sure you aren't a troll.


i get 90% of my clothes from charity shops and out of 'donation skips' and whatever, i rarely pay more then £2 for any of my clothes and even rarer by new... unless it is the 'consumer' in me wanting a nice tshirt, but even then its made by the person im buying off so that £5 for a new tshirt helps no fat cat out (its a punk thing, i wouldnt expect a capitalist minded person to understand)...

You'll find many people on here do too no doubt and probably go further than you ;), but hey we're..


just capitalists/fascists with hats on

:laugh:


.... Anyone who has claimed themselves to be an anarchist is a fucking con, you dont understand the real issues we are suppose to be fighting... Equality is nowt more then a word to you... BOLLOCKS TO YOU PART TIME WANNABES, you have seriously made me depressed....

As you insist, as Ace Ventura would say (:P)
Well why don't you cry about it, saddlebags.

[communard resolution]

its not about high standards and luxury, its to do with MORALS!

Why do you reckon is it immoral to work at MTV - is it because they don't play enough punk rock? I think you're on to something here, please elaborate.


So what about strike action? are you opposed to that, 'no its ok, dont strike they need the money'...

Sorry, I don't follow the logic in this one - and I tried hard. How does strike action relate to your refusal to accept a job at MTV even though you probably could get one?


fuck that mate,

This is the kind of language one would expect to hear from a common fish porter, not from a young gentleman who is above working at MTV. Cut down on the swearing please.


if you aint got a fucking spine you aint no use to a revolutionary process are you?

What revolutionary process is that? The revolutionary process of refusing to accept jobs that young white Westerners with an alternative dress sense are most likely to get?


your just capitalists/fascists with hats on

I did actually wear a hat today, but I think 'fascist' is a bit harsh.

Seriously though: I tried to be nice to you and don't understand what you're getting so upset at.

[MilitantAnarchist]

Since when has 'pleb' been an insult at the commoners, its an insult at idiots... and with alot of your comments about EQUALITY but saying that its my own fault i want to look different (to me it makes whoever i directed pleb at an idiot)... where is my EQUALITY??? you reallly dont wanna answer that for some reason.... and for the millionth fucking time, i no there are much bigger issues mate, i no this... ive seen it, i know it, its wrong, but that is on debate every single fucking minute of every fucking day, my discrimination isnt.... It is discrimination, even if you think it doesnt matter.... and you are skimming over other things ive said, focusing on the easily criticising stuff... forget all of what i said, and who i am, answer me this ONE question.... If there are two men, both aged 22, both dressesed in suit and tie, both have exactly the same qualifications but ONE with tattoos and spikey hair that is dyed a different color and he has a little more expierience in the job then the normal looking guy, and the job is in a back room where no customers can see.... and a job goes to the normal looking guy BASED ON THE OTHER GUYS CHOSEN LIFESTYLE... Is that discrimination?

(by the way, i have had several jobs in all different sectors of work, factory, warehouse, office, counter, even looking different and i have been fucking excellent at all jobs because i put my heart n soul into what im doing... i have only lost jobs due to redundency or arguments with management on different things, so im not some twat who wants to fuck about)

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/69/Sackonferens1917.jpg

These hard nuts are better then you.

Discuss.

[MilitantAnarchist]

Why do you reckon is it immoral to work at MTV - is it because they don't play enough punk rock? I think you're on to something here, please elaborate.



No not because they dont play punk, because it is corporate advertising propaganda that preys on young people and shows mainly good looking people with lots of money, its a capitalists wet dream... It is showing our youth that being that way is somthing to aspire to, and to me it aint...


Sorry, I don't follow the logic in this one - and I tried hard. How does strike action relate to your refusal to accept a job at MTV even though you probably could get one?



That wasnt just aimed at not getting a job at MTV, it was about working in jobs such as insurance companys which is a money grabbing con that only serves to line pockets of the rich, and in most cases the government are in hand with it and force you to get it, such as car insurance.... the main point im making is if you get jobs just for the money because you need it, even though you dont morally agree, then if there was a strike needed, you wouldnt strike because you need the money? its morals vs money...


This is the kind of language one would expect to hear from a common fish porter, not from a young gentleman who is above working at MTV. Cut down on the swearing please.

Freedom of speech? but fair play, i will turn the swearing down just for you (big kiss)


What revolutionary process is that? The revolutionary process of refusing to accept jobs that young white Westerners with an alternative dress sense are most likely to get?



No mate it isnt about alternative dress sense, its about EQUALITY, as someone said earlier on what about women 30 or 40years ago who wore skirts that werent below the knee, or trousers? That isnt sexism, its choice of clothes, its ony about preconceptional ideas it wasnt alowd then... This isn't really that different, its prejudice no matter how you dress it up

[communard resolution]

If there are two men, both aged 22, both dressesed in suit and tie, both have exactly the same qualifications but ONE with tattoos and spikey hair that is dyed a different color and he has a little more expierience in the job then the normal looking guy, and the job is in a back room where no customers can see.... and a job goes to the normal looking guy BASED ON THE OTHER GUYS CHOSEN LIFESTYLE... Is that discrimination?

OK, one last attempt: yes, it is discrimination. It has been suggested to you to clean up your act just for the day of the interview so your potential employer can see that you've made an effort. You won't be able to hide all your subcultural signifiers, but they will see that you've done your best and didn't walk in with a 'fuck you' attitude - this should be enough. And if it isn't, you don't want that job anyway because you wouldn't survive in a more conservative work environment.

If you refuse liberal/alternative/media jobs that you are more than privileged to get, however, that's entirely self-imposed and you shouldn't expect anyone to feel sorry for you.

[MilitantAnarchist]

It has been suggested to you to clean up your act just for the day of the interview

I'll just quote myself to respond


both dressesed in suit and tie,
and i have said i go in smart before, i dont have a fuck you attitude unless they give it to me first...


If you refuse liberal/alternative/media jobs that you are more than privileged to get, however, that's entirely self-imposed and you shouldn't expect anyone to feel sorry for you.

I dont refuse any work i dont morally object too... i do alot of charity work, campaigning against the closure of local homeless shelters so they can build yuppie flats is a recent one... i do have a job, and ive been in it for over a year, its just shit pay and part time, i need more work and in this climate i cant find anything... especially with the fact i dont look 'normal'... and i ask nobody to feel sorry for me, just a little solidarity


yes, it is discrimination

Surely that is enough (aswell as our similar shared goals) that i get peoples support??? i have done what people suggested, and always have done, im not thick.
But, i am going to uni soon so i should be able to get a student loan, so it wont worry me then...

[communard resolution]

campaigning against the closure of local homeless shelters so they can build yuppie flats is a recent one..That's good.



But, i am going to uni soon so i should be able to get a student loan, so it wont worry me then...Good luck. The current situation on the jobmarket is not a good one, but as I said, you're certainly not the least likely person to get a job.

I know a girl who's got fire red hair, piercings, and tattoos all over the place. She used to be a junkie prostitute for a couple of years, so there's a huge gap in her CV - but now she's a fucking production manager on music video sets! Trust me, alternative looking people often have it easier if they look in the right places - which is probably part of the reason why some people got so upset at your, forgive me if I call it self-pity.

[Mujer Libre]

ple⋅be⋅ian

   /plɪˈbihttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngən/ http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/IPA_pron_key.html) Show Spelled Pronunciation [pli-bee-uhhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngn] http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/Spell_pron_key.html) Show IPA
–adjective 1.belonging or pertaining to the common people.2.of, pertaining to, or belonging to the ancient Roman plebs.3.common, commonplace, or vulgar: a plebeian joke.



Just to save you the trouble of making more of an arse of yourself.

[MilitantAnarchist]

Just to save you the trouble of making more of an arse of yourself.

I didnt know that, and i do now. So cheers mr mod...

Oh and dont call me an arse. It isnt becoming of a moderator of a website who is trying to come across as intellegent.

N to the other bloke, it wasnt meant to come across as self pitty. I have no pitty, especially not for myself.... I started it because i went to an agency to ask about a job she had in the window, and she looked at me like i was a fucking PLEB (ther we go mujer libre, that ones for you) and told me it was 'out of date' when it clearly wasnt cos i check the jobs every fucking day and have done since last july.
Even though in all possibilties i am more suitable for that job then anyone else she could of put forward... it pisses me off JUST because i dont fit the mould... and in my oppinion it is discrimination because i feel DISCRIMINATED... even if none of you agree, i feel that way...
now mr wonderful all knowing genius mod muger libre, close this fucking forum or somthing, i think we've established the argument will never end, lets agree to disagree

[brigadista]

mujer libre means free woman

[Jazzratt]

This article (http://jonnigirl.wordpress.com/2009/02/27/on-green-hair-and-womens-bodies/) is tangenitally related and fairly intersting and makes for good reading.

[Sam_b]

Is MilitantAnarchist for real?


That is all.

[Sean]

Is MilitantAnarchist for real?


That is all.

But how can anarchy be 'communist' thinking, where does that come into it? Anarchy meens WITHOUT RULERS! And if you are saying 'well anarchism means this, and anarchism means that' it is a complete contridiction in terms... How the fuck can there be rules to being an anarchist?
And what is not serious about Anarcho Punk? Its thanks to that scene alot of people are into anarchism.
Also an observation of mine, most people who call themselves anarchists on here aint no comrade of mine.
And seriously thinking about it, i dont beleive in a revolution because its always just been talk... What we need to do is build communities (similar to your so called 'non serious' anarcho punks Crass) through squatting and living off the land, and reject all forms of government and authority including their dole cheques and benefit system.
Become self sufficent and watch the world follow....
Somthing like that, it is more realistic then a 'Che' styled revolution...

That is all.

[Yazman]

Just to save you the trouble of making more of an arse of yourself.

Some of you people really make me fucking crack up laughing with narcy bullshit like this. Ok, yes, it does have a definition or an etymology that you can pull out of a dictionary, but surely you lot must realise that a lot of insults are pretty obvious in their intent and don't always refer to a dictionary definition. You're so wrapped up in regurgitating the dictionary that you fail to see cultural variations on insults and slang.

Calling somebody a pleb is clearly just analogous to calling them a dickhead. You're not meant to take the term literally! If I call you a dickhead it doesn't mean I'm saying that you have a penis for a head, or a penis attached to your head. It means I'm calling you an idiot, or a loser.

[Jazzratt]

Some of you people really make me fucking crack up laughing with narcy bullshit like this. Ok, yes, it does have a definition or an etymology that you can pull out of a dictionary, but surely you lot must realise that a lot of insults are pretty obvious in their intent and don't always refer to a dictionary definition. You're so wrapped up in regurgitating the dictionary that you fail to see cultural variations on insults and slang.

Calling somebody a pleb is clearly just analogous to calling them a dickhead. You're not meant to take the term literally! If I call you a dickhead it doesn't mean I'm saying that you have a penis for a head, or a penis attached to your head. It means I'm calling you an idiot, or a loser.

Right, but obviously to a lot of members "pleb" doesn't read that way. Just because someone might mean something else by it doesn't change the fact that it can easily interpreted as meaning, well, what it actually fucking means. In the same way that you can't simply wander about calling people "niggers" and claimning you've got your own definition for it.

[Sean]

I'm not being opposite for the sake of it Yaz, but I take it to mean the common man, which MilitantAnarchist really does have contempt for, as well as actual anarchists. He seems to think that anarchy is peacocking and showing that you're different from everyone. Which is fine as a way of living. But then complaining about being oppressed for being treated like someone who demands to be treated differently from everyone isn't.

[communard resolution]

Cause I wanna baaa-ay anarchaaaaaay-ah!
Get pissed, des-trooooy.

[NecroCommie]

Aah... :closedeyes: How about this one dudes: From a communist point of view job is more of a duty or human right, rather than a priviledge. How come one needs to sacrifice anything to fullfill his duty/ get what is rightfully his?

[Yazman]

I'm not being opposite for the sake of it Yaz, but I take it to mean the common man, which MilitantAnarchist really does have contempt for, as well as actual anarchists. He seems to think that anarchy is peacocking and showing that you're different from everyone. Which is fine as a way of living. But then complaining about being oppressed for being treated like someone who demands to be treated differently from everyone isn't.

I'm not a punk and I'm not associated with the movement, however I think you really have little if any understanding of its politics.

[communard resolution]

I'm not a punk and I'm not associated with the movement, however I think you really have little if any understanding of its politics.

The punk movement doesn't have any coherent politics. You'll find anarchist, communist, liberal, conservative, apolitical, even nazi punks - I could even give you examples of punk bands for all of the above. It's a subculture revolving around music, clothes, hairstyles, and a vague notion of rebelling against society - mostly aesthetically so, and in some cases through lifestyle choices.

What I think some posters did get wrong is the notion that punks want to shock and piss people off. This might have been the case in the late 70s when the subculture was new and fresh, but today's punks really just want to be left alone. It's more about tribal identity than about sending out strong messages to the 'straight world' really.

Not that there's anything wrong with it: it's understandable why people want to belong to subcultures and get a fix of group solidarity so sadly lacking from individualist society at large.