John Zerzan and why primmies are a vermin

[Dimentio]

http://monkeysmashesheaven.wordpress.com/2009/04/01/book-review-running-on-emptiness-by-john-zerzan/

When I agree with MIM-affiliated groups, something must be very wrong.

I think that anarcho-primitivists are the greatest enemies of anarchism, in the sense that people who associate anarcho-primitivism with anarchism then start to think that anarchists are crazier than they are.

[FreeFocus]

John Zerzan is an all-around nutjob. I don't like, however, that the author of the book review equated anarcho-primitivism with green anarchism. It may be a warped form of green anarchism, but it is not the entirety of green anarchism. Nonetheless, I do agree with the Maoists here.

While there are definitely arguments to be made against the scale of society and the lack of intimate human contact that results, the answer does not lie in decivilization, if you will, but rather a reconstruction of power relationships that strengthens communities, promotes self-sufficiency and cooperation/mutual aid, embraces the principles of free association and freedom and implements socialism.

[Dimentio]

John Zerzan is an all-around nutjob. I don't like, however, that the author of the book review equated anarcho-primitivism with green anarchism. It may be a warped form of green anarchism, but it is not the entirety of green anarchism. Nonetheless, I do agree with the Maoists here.

While there are definitely arguments to be made against the scale of society and the lack of intimate human contact that results, the answer does not lie in decivilization, if you will, but rather a reconstruction of power relationships that strengthens communities, promotes self-sufficiency and cooperation/mutual aid, embraces the principles of free association and freedom and implements socialism.

Who can really blame the maoists? I mean, Zerzan allows other crazy people to target all of anarchism.

And I think mainstream anarchists has a part of the blame in it. They should not allow loons to be associated with them.

[Killfacer]

And I think mainstream anarchists has a part of the blame in it. They should not allow loons to be associated with them.

That's easier said than done. It's also a problem facing the rest of the left (at least in the UK). Ask a lot of people and their main image of lefties today will be white people with dredlocks toting a bongo banging on about animals and the enviroment.

[Dimentio]

That's easier said than done. It's also a problem facing the rest of the left (at least in the UK). Ask a lot of people and their main image of lefties today will be white people with dredlocks toting a bongo banging on about animals and the enviroment.

The same here in Sweden. Primmies have actually been quite successful here, and in my city, we see a community of primitivists.

[AvanteRedGarde]

The whole thing seems like an end-times religion: just waiting for the 'end of the world' so we can have our Neanderthal utopia. Completely silly and reactionary.

[x359594]

The whole thing seems like an end-times religion: just waiting for the 'end of the world' so we can have our Neanderthal utopia...

Exactly right. I was on a panel with Zerzen at an anarchist bookfair where I was making the case for anarchosyndicalsim. During the discussion I asked him how we should go about dismantling industrial civilization, and his answer was that it would collapre of its own accord so all we have to do is get ready to go back to the stone age!

[MarxSchmarx]

That's easier said than done. It's also a problem facing the rest of the left (at least in the UK). Ask a lot of people and their main image of lefties today will be white people with dredlocks toting a bongo banging on about animals and the enviroment.That's a really interesting observation. It raises two questions: What is it about the Primmie movement that attracts people who may otherwise be good leftists? How do you think the leftists within the anarchist movement can do a better job convincing these "white people with dredlocks toting a bongo" to see the broader picture?

[Killfacer]

That's a really interesting observation. It raises two questions: What is it about the Primmie movement that attracts people who may otherwise be good leftists? How do you think the leftists within the anarchist movement can do a better job convincing these "white people with dredlocks toting a bongo" to see the broader picture?

It's a pretty difficult problem and one which is frankly beyond me.

Firstly i think that the primmie/enviromentalist movement attracts different sorts of people than more mainstream political anarchists. It's difficult to suggest the demographics without making sweeping generalisations, but in my opinion, i think that a lot of the "bongo toting dredlocked types" simply don't have much of an interest in class politics, prodimantly because it doesn't effect them. I assume you can see what i'm getting at.

I'm not entirely sure what would be better for the left; attempting to distance themselves as much as possible from them, or attempting to convince them to look at the broader picture.

[Dimentio]

It's a pretty difficult problem and one which is frankly beyond me.

Firstly i think that the primmie/enviromentalist movement attracts different sorts of people than more mainstream political anarchists. It's difficult to suggest the demographics without making sweeping generalisations, but in my opinion, i think that a lot of the "bongo toting dredlocked types" simply don't have much of an interest in class politics, prodimantly because it doesn't effect them. I assume you can see what i'm getting at.

I'm not entirely sure what would be better for the left; attempting to distance themselves as much as possible from them, or attempting to convince them to look at the broader picture.

My experience with most primitivists is that they feel socially alienated. Oh, and every last one of them which I have met are inner-city kids who never have seen animals in the wild.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

What strikes me about Zerzan's primitivism is that it is overwhelmingly negative - it is against and for the destruction of culture, language, time, technology, science, and many other things. What does he offer in their place? An animalistic existance as a bunch of lotus-eaters.

Hardly a compelling vision for the future of the species.

On the contrary, what is needed is a transition to a truly planetary civilisation - there is after all only one planet Earth, so it only makes sense for the human species which inhabits it to be unified.

What we need is more, not less, of what Zerzan criticises - civilisation.

[Dimentio]

What strikes me about Zerzan's primitivism is that it is overwhelmingly negative - it is against and for the destruction of culture, language, time, technology, science, and many other things. What does he offer in their place? An animalistic existance as a bunch of lotus-eaters.

Hardly a compelling vision for the future of the species.

On the contrary, what is needed is a transition to a truly planetary civilisation - there is after all only one planet Earth, so it only makes sense for the human species which inhabits it to be unified.

What we need is more, not less, of what Zerzan criticises - civilisation.

I would call him semi-religious.

Moreover, he is also a coward. Instand for being ready to stand for his positions, when challenged, he says that it is just an intellectual game.

The only honest primitivist is Pentti Linkola.

[Revy]

I don't see primitivism becoming popular. Nor I do see the point of considering them a great enemy - unless their anti-modern fetishism becomes a respected idea.

I think though, that certain technological developments, will cause much uproar, like robots, but only because of their inherent contradictions within a capitalist system. Robots are best for socialism.

[Dimentio]

I don't see primitivism becoming popular. Nor I do see the point of considering them a great enemy - unless their anti-modern fetishism becomes a respected idea.

I think though, that certain technological developments, will cause much uproar, like robots, but only because of their inherent contradictions within a capitalist system. Robots are best for socialism.

It is very small but get quite much undeserved media exposure. Partially because it is'nt a threat, and partially because the media establishment at least culturally finds it aestheticallt appealing. Moreover, it paints the left as cranks.

[YSR]

I have friends who are primitivists who have gone to the bat for me and for my comrades. I know there are folks who are facing serious jail time for their actions during the Republican National Convention protests who are primitivists. If you can say nothing else good about them, you've gotta be able to recognize that their rank-and-file is as militant, if not more militant than ours (that is, class struggle anarchism.)

I don't worry about primitivism. I think it's a strange and alienated line of thought that will never catch on. I think saying that "anarcho-primitivists are the greatest enemies of anarchism" is bullshit. Capitalism is the greatest enemy of anarchism. Primitivists are just a distraction. The only reason we even care about them is because we've been so miserable at recruiting and maintaining membership in the red anarchist community. The primmies have succeeded where we've failed and that makes us jealous. And before someone says it, primmies are not just all "middle class kids from the suburbs." They've got plenty of working class adherents.

The problem is not "what to do with the primitivists," but rather "what to do with our own movement and how to succeed in the future."

[Andy Bowden]

Isn't there a bit of a contradiction with having a primitivist at a book fair?

[( R )evolution]

No one will ever take primitivism seriously. Arguing to go back to the stone age will never adhere to the masses. But this does not mean to treat them like shit and ostracize them from the cause. The revolution and the movement forward needs all the support possible, and if primitivist already adhere to the idea of the destruction of the current status-quo then we need to inculde them in discussions and movements.

[Dimentio]

No one will ever take primitivism seriously. Arguing to go back to the stone age will never adhere to the masses. But this does not mean to treat them like shit and ostracize them from the cause. The revolution and the movement forward needs all the support possible, and if primitivist already adhere to the idea of the destruction of the current status-quo then we need to inculde them in discussions and movements.

Well, then I guess its time to welcome the "national anarchists" as well? And why not the MIM;ites and national bolsheviks when we are into it?

[( R )evolution]

Haha no, of course not. But I am tired of seeing all of this alienation occurring amongst people who may be able to help us in the movement.

[Dimentio]

Haha no, of course not. But I am tired of seeing all of this alienation occurring amongst people who may be able to help us in the movement.

What do we want to achieve? A revolution without an idea of what we want to create will end up in a fucking mess.

I think we should be pro-technological. I think it is essential in consolidating some form of egalitarian future to have advanced technology, like automation, longevity and computer networks handling production and distribution.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Indeed. Technology is the most potent force magnifier par excellence. The mistake of the primitivists is to concentrate solely on the negative aspects of this, completely ignoring the fact that technology and civilisation can be forces for good as well as ill.

[tomhardly]

The only honest primitivist is Pentti Linkola. Pentti Linkola believes that domestication is the one good thing mankind has achieved. He openly advocates the domestication of animals and plants by human beings. This is in direct opposition to what primitivists say. In fact, the whole theory of primitivism revolves around the critique of domestication.

Linkola's fans are legendary for their inability to think logically. They are typically oblivious of what the man has actually said or written and base their opinion of him on other people's gloating depictions of him as a mythical iconoclast. The following attracted by Linkola is just intellectual masturbation for the morally confused.

[chegitz guevara]

I think Primitivists serve a very valuable function: they turn people off to anarchism, making it more likely they'll consider socialism instead. ;)

[bcbm]

i'd rather associate with primitivists than people who support stalin.

[Sasha]

Exactly right. I was on a panel with Zerzen at an anarchist bookfair where I was making the case for anarchosyndicalsim. During the discussion I asked him how we should go about dismantling industrial civilization, and his answer was that it would collapre of its own accord so all we have to do is get ready to go back to the stone age!

since when do anarchist believe in historical materialism :rolleyes:

[FSL]

i'd rather associate with primitivists than people who support stalin.


As a person who supports Stalin, I can't say I mind.

[bcbm]

glad we're on the same page

[What Would Durruti Do?]

Who can really blame the maoists? I mean, Zerzan allows other crazy people to target all of anarchism.

And I think mainstream anarchists has a part of the blame in it. They should not allow loons to be associated with them.

then why aren't we out beating up anarcho-capitalists? :lol:

[Revy]

Someone gave me this anarchist/radical kind of pocket date planner called Slingshot Organizer as a gift some time ago. it was very cool. they had a list of zines, though and Fifth Estate ( a primitivist rag) was on there. so yeah. that was odd.

[chegitz guevara]

i'd rather associate with primitivists than people who support stalin.

I can't say that I agree. At least Stalinists wash, use deodorant and won't try to feed me garbage.

[bcbm]

i thought that was all anarchists:rolleyes:

[chegitz guevara]

I know at least one anarchist who understands the fundamentals of hygiene.

[The Douche]

Exactly right. I was on a panel with Zerzen at an anarchist bookfair where I was making the case for anarchosyndicalsim. During the discussion I asked him how we should go about dismantling industrial civilization, and his answer was that it would collapre of its own accord so all we have to do is get ready to go back to the stone age!

Thats better than Jensen who advocates the destruction of civilization by a minority.

[jake williams]

I find a vague inarticulate support for something we might call primitivism is almost universal among my non-Marxist leftist friends, at least to some degree. It's not something a lot of them really think about. I should qualify though that these are mostly university campus activist folks.

[Tiktaalik]

Honestly, I don't agree with primmies but I couldn't care less about them.

Focus on capitalism for fuck's sake, they are vermin. Anarcho-primmies are not worth my time arguing with.

And most primmies I've met used to be Marxists or pro-civ anarchists and they're still down with class war and fighting capitalism.

[What Would Durruti Do?]

well i'll give the primmies one thing, hygiene is overrated. i proudly wallow in my working class filth

and they arent stalinists. they might get mad at me for driving a car, but at least they won't systematically murder me and all my friends to consolidate power

[Revy]

well i'll give the primmies one thing, hygiene is overrated. i proudly wallow in my working class filth

and they arent stalinists. they might get mad at me for driving a car, but at least they won't systematically murder me and all my friends to consolidate power

I don't consider the anti-car viewpoint by itself to be primitivist. I recommend Andre Gorz's Social Ideology of the Motorcar (http://rts.gn.apc.org/socid.htm) for a non-primitivist analysis of cars.

Granted, the main concern on the left about cars is environmental. It wouldn't hard to switch to clean alternative fuels (ethanol NOT included in this category), if not for the huge resistance from the bourgeois toward doing so. You could put solar panels on top of a car (which has been done) and the driver would get free energy from the sun....fuel for free? Oh, they can't have that cutting into their profits.

[Tablo]

I don't think there would be much use for cars in Communism. We would have abandoned suburbia to live in communes and would probably be focusing on the construction of trains and subways.

[Tatarin]

No, I wouldn't mind primitivists as much as capitalists and those who want the current system to dominate, not to mention nazis.

It's not that their view are strange (immaterial matter as an evil which is corrupting humans, not the other way around), their stance is simply undoable. There will always be someone inventing something that makes everyday easier. As said before, we will start to use animals again. We will begin with agriculture, towns, cities, if not feudalism all over again. Because who is to stop that development? Some sort of police force? How will that force prevent someone in northern Siberia from inventing? Or what if the "inventors" start their own army to defend development?

This would mean that every person would have to agree on not developing anything to a certain level, and I mean every single one of the 7 billion people on this planet. Or, we can try Pentti Linkola's suggestion of establishing a brutal state which will kill anyone trying something not to it's liking. I think we know pretty well about where such states went in history, but I'll give him some credit for at least explaining how a primitivist society should be maintained (that is not to say that I in any way support him, he is an arrogant idiot who lives quite well off in some natural reserve and is glad when people die - he is known for stating that World War 2 was a good event since many people died in it).

And this is only the short beginning. What about "treasures" such as books, cars and the old cities and towns? People would just abandon them? What would happen in future generations? What would they do about nuclear waste and the thousands of other hazards lying around from this civilization? I don't know for sure, but I'm pretty confident that their society would be a very small one surrounded by abandoned hazards such as nuclear reactors which have melted down and created great clouds of nuclear waste.

Sure, who haven't heard that "communism will never work" because of this or that reason? But I can not see a reason for why it logically couldn't work. Robots are not far from an everyday reality, we have already an internet that could be a great tool for direct democracy (you could even vote from the mobile) as well as technology for the checks and balances needed to watch officials and have a planned economy. In all honesty, I only see one more need, and that is the people using it for the progress of humankind. Yes, primitivism could probably work for some time, but I am skeptical that most humans would just throw away everything they have learned "when civilization was around".

[Revy]

I don't think primitivists have that much influence on the left. and if there are, they need to be educated. I'm not sure that they should be restricted on this forum.

[Tatarin]

I agree with the Human Condition. As long as they are not in-tie with nationalism or that kind of idioticy then they should be welcome. Their feelings are the same as ours, and their arguments for primitivism are so easily defeated that anyone could win such a discussion.

[Across The Street]

I just don't see why the division of labor is such a bad thing as Zerzan likes to believe. You can spend your whole life learning and participating in one particular profession and still learn new things about it. I guess in the leisure society so many people seem to envision there's no need for a division of labor.

On an unrelated note bathing everyday deprives the body of necessary oils.

[Tablo]

Some Primmies are actually Communists of sorts, so I wouldn't mind having them around. It would be nice making fun of them so they can actually read our insults.


On an unrelated note bathing everyday deprives the body of necessary oils.
It is also important to note that not bathing at all makes you smell like moldy anus.

[Across The Street]

I agree, just adding to the discourse on hygienic conditions.