One in Five Americans Prefer Socialism

[DancingLarry]

In a Rasmussen poll (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/just_53_say_capitalism_better_than_socialism) released Thursday:




Only 53% of American adults believe capitalism is better than socialism.
The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey found that 20% disagree and say socialism is better. Twenty-seven percent (27%) are not sure which is better.
Now that's still a large plurality that prefer capitalism, and no doubt some of those 20% have a terribly skewed and misinformed idea of what socialism is. Nevertheless, this may well be the highest percentage of Americans any of us posting here have ever seen in our lifetimes being at least open to the idea of socialism. It's time to start fashioning the tools, both rhetorically and organizationally, to start connecting with those one in five Americans are willing to consider socialism preferable to capitalism.

[LOLseph Stalin]

I wouldn't say that the numbers are high, but it's progress. America of course is known to be a very reactionary, Anti-Communist country that typically isn't open to the ideas of Socialism so this 20% seem quite significant. Like you've mentioned, I wonder how many actually truly know what socialism is.

[Iuvo]

I think at least 80% of the 53% prefer capitalism over socialism simply because they don't understand what socialism is (they probably equate it with Stalinism).

[synthesis]

I think at least 80% of the 53% prefer capitalism over socialism simply because they don't understand what socialism is (they probably equate it with Stalinism).

I also think that a sizable percentage of the 47% equates "socialism" with "what they have in Sweden."

[ZeroNowhere]

Now that's still a large plurality that prefer capitalism, and no doubt some of those 20% have a terribly skewed and misinformed idea of what socialism is.
'Some' is an understatement. I'd go with 'most'.

[JimmyJazz]

Shockingly high, for me anyway.

I guess we see why the McCain-Palin "socialism" election gimmick backfired.

[Yehuda Stern]

Great news, even if their idea of socialism is not the Marxist one - this represents a huge change in consciousness.

[teenagebricks]

As stated above, most of the 53% would consider socialism to be inferior to capitalism based solely on Cuba and North Korea. I suspect if people actually understood what true socialism is then that 20% would at least double.

[Dimentio]

I wouldn't say that the numbers are high, but it's progress. America of course is known to be a very reactionary, Anti-Communist country that typically isn't open to the ideas of Socialism so this 20% seem quite significant. Like you've mentioned, I wonder how many actually truly know what socialism is.

In American terms, that's very big.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

It does seem very big but are most of these people equating socialism with Barack Obama?

[teenagebricks]

Perhaps, we've all heard stories about Obama being a communist. In the run up to the election I was told that socialism and liberalism go hand in hand, that they are one and the same. Really makes you think about how people might be using their votes.

[ComradeR]

It does seem very big but are most of these people equating socialism with Barack Obama?
More then likely. Nearly everyone I've spoken to about Socialism have no idea what it is. Those who are friendly to it think it's what Europe has.
However it is very encouraging to see that people are becoming more friendly to the idea of socialism. But it will take the left getting better organized and educating our fellow workers on what socialism actually is to make something of it.

(btw the loading time on this board is horrendous and it keeps timing out. It seems to only happen when I'm logged in and makes posting near impossible. So if anyone knows why it's doing this and how to fix it could you pm me, thanks. Sorry I have to post this here but it keeps timing out when I try to start a thread in TS.)

[Andropov]

Even though the different interpretations of what Socialism is and what its not may have skewed the poll it is never the less encouraging figures for the Left.
It means after decades of stigmatisation of Socialism that Americans are finally over coming the black propaganda and may be more approachable with regards Left Politics.

[Dimentio]

Even though the different interpretations of what Socialism is and what its not may have skewed the poll it is never the less encouraging figures for the Left.
It means after decades of stigmatisation of Socialism that Americans are finally over coming the black propaganda and may be more approachable with regards Left Politics.

Thank Bush.

[Andropov]

Thank Bush.

I would also think that the health care system, the economic downturn, the lack of employment, the homelessness, their imperialist wars, and the basic destitution of the American working class has finally shown the yank media up for what it is and put people like Bill O'Reilly into context.
There is only so many times you will be told from above its raining while they are pissing on you and you will believe it.

[punisa]

However it is very encouraging to see that people are becoming more friendly to the idea of socialism. But it will take the left getting better organized and educating our fellow workers on what socialism actually is to make something of it.

Well said comrade ! :thumbup1:

[Brother No. 1]

America is anti-Communist and Anti-Socialist so its expected for that Pro-Capitalists to have a higher number then the pro-Communists and Pro-Socialists but at least some Americans like Socialism and communism. But the number will rise for as we can see 300 years of Capitalism is just going to rip this nation apart..again. Soon when the People Acutally see that Capitalism has failed them they will think and ask them selfs. "What do I fo now" or "whats going to happen now?" But for the number to increase it will take maybe..5 years to a decade for the Pro-Communists and Socialists to increase.

[Communist Theory]

Now is the time to strike comrades!!!
:lol:

[robbo203]

In a Rasmussen poll (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/just_53_say_capitalism_better_than_socialism) released Thursday:


Now that's still a large plurality that prefer capitalism, and no doubt some of those 20% have a terribly skewed and misinformed idea of what socialism is. Nevertheless, this may well be the highest percentage of Americans any of us posting here have ever seen in our lifetimes being at least open to the idea of socialism. It's time to start fashioning the tools, both rhetorically and organizationally, to start connecting with those one in five Americans are willing to consider socialism preferable to capitalism.


The problem of course is that it rather depends on what you mean by socialism. If they associate socialism with state ownership or control of the economy then this is not particularly good news. That just means going down the well trodden, delusionary track towards the dead end of state capitalism and then having to find their way back again , thoroughly disilluioned and disenchanted. Now if we are talking about real socialism that would be a different matter of course:)

[LOLseph Stalin]

Definitely. We don't even know for sure what these Americans mean by "Socialism". They could be thinking Barack Obama is Socialist or something for all we know...

[Brother No. 1]

Well I've been in America for 14 years and this is what they think Socialism is.
#1: what Hitler used
#2: Vietnam
#3: Stalin's,Lenin's, and Trosky's tool of Destruction and many other false things.


Bottom line: Americans cant even get a straight fix on Socialism for they think anything that gives people at least some free helath care or education is by their own words "a no good commie supporter." Basicly they know as much on Socialism as they do on Communism so they dont know anything or just believe the lies their goverment tells them...acutally I think its both.

[Refounder]

I'm not American, so I don't really know it, but I think that if this poll is correct, it would be great step forward. At this point the only thing that matters is that people start seeing capitalism is not the only way, nor it's the better one.
I personally thought that pro-socialism in America were around 0,00something%. It's shocking @[email protected]

[RedSonRising]

While we all realize most of these don't understand the class sctructure or the democratic nature of worker self-management or community distribution of resources, the fact that they are even open to the title of socialism means good things. This crisis is a great opportunity for activism, and education of the general populous is the most important (and I feel most lacking) element of modern activism, though I have seen that is evolving.

[LOLseph Stalin]

I personally thought that pro-socialism in America were around 0,00something%. It's shocking @[email protected]

Maybe in the south where the very word "Socialism" is probably considered a curse word. :lol:

[Brother No. 1]

No Communism is the curse word Socialism is a insult.:lol:

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Definitely. We don't even know for sure what these Americans mean by "Socialism". They could be thinking Barack Obama is Socialist or something for all we know...

You say that like it is farfetched but in all likelihood that's what they think.

[Communist]

If these Americans know what socialism actually is, and not what the right claim it to be, it's fantastic news.
Even if they misunderstand socialism, it's still an opening.

[AvanteRedGarde]

It does seem very big but are most of these people equating socialism with Barack Obama?

Exactly. Like Sam Webb, chairman of the grotesquely revisionist and reformist CPUSA and who basically campaigned for Barack Obama, stated: "we're all socialists now."

No Sam, you've simply just opportunistically changed the idea of socialism in a bid to attract mainstream liberals.


If these Americans know what socialism actually is, and not what the right claim it to be, it's fantastic news. Even if they misunderstand socialism, it's still an opening.

I have to ask all those Socialists who think Americans have even a marginal potential of being revolutionary. Given this recent news, what are you still doing posting on the internet? Shouldn't you be organizing the supposedly exploited masses who, at least in name, support your program.

[Communist]

"Shouldn't you be organizing the supposedly exploited masses who, at least in name, support your program."

*Supposedly* exploited masses??

[Brother No. 1]

all the masses are exploited. Their tricked,lied to,deceived,abused,opressed,ect.

If thats not Exploiting then I dont know what is.

[FreeFocus]

"Shouldn't you be organizing the supposedly exploited masses who, at least in name, support your program."

*Supposedly* exploited masses??

I believe he was alluding to the idea that First World workers cannot properly be considered "exploited," but I may be wrong in what he was trying to convey. I don't entirely agree with that position, although it has some merit. Too many working people suffer day to day in the US for that to be said.

I don't take as optimistic a view as others on here. First, obviously those one in five Americans don't understand socialism and are not socialists, given how weak (almost non-existent, dare I say) the real left is in the US. Second, even if they do prefer socialism, is it socialism for Americans only? Do they merely want to more equitably distribute the profits reaped from the exploitation and destruction of workers and cultures/nations abroad? In other words, did the poll forget to include the word "National" before "Socialism?"

[AvanteRedGarde]

Specifically, exploitation is when one works (i.e imbuing an object with labor) but does not receive in pay the full value which was added by their labor, the remaining portion expropriated and under the control of an exploiter or exploiter classes.

Wrapped up in this idea is that, while their may be some variance, the full value of one's labor can be expressed as a social average. That is to say that if a small minority labor force earns anywhere from 10 to 40 times the prevalent wage, they're probably not exploited.

Going back to the Communist Manifesto, Marx and Engles highlight deepening impovershment of the working class. They talk about the wages paid being the minimum required for the reproduction of that labor. Looking at the history of American, this can hardly be said to be the case. In any case, something doesn't add up.

[Communist]

Marx in Capital also makes the point that there can be no ironclad law, that it all depends upon the society. In the US, there is certainly a larger exploiting class than in most other countries. While a carpenter may make $25 an hour, the work he does is making far more for the capitalists, and the number of people making that amount of money is dropping. But the overwhelming majority are still working for peanuts and are falling further into the hole, and even not excluding the relative few who do pretty well, it still amounts to exploitation.

[PRC-UTE]

here it provides the demographics, so court those in areas that poll heavily for democrats who are under 30 ;)


Adults under 30 are essentially evenly divided: 37% prefer capitalism, 33% socialism, and 30% are undecided. Thirty-somethings are a bit more supportive of the free-enterprise approach with 49% for capitalism and 26% for socialism. Adults over 40 strongly favor capitalism, and just 13% of those older Americans believe socialism is better.
Investors by a 5-to-1 margin choose capitalism. As for those who do not invest, 40% say capitalism is better while 25% prefer socialism.
There is a partisan gap as well. Republicans - by an 11-to-1 margin - favor capitalism. Democrats are much more closely divided: Just 39% say capitalism is better while 30% prefer socialism. As for those not affiliated with either major political party, 48% say capitalism is best, and 21% opt for socialism.



The question posed by Rasmussen Reports did not define either capitalism or socialism


that's what I was expecting to hear.

[AvanteRedGarde]

I'll accept that semi-feudalism is still prevalent, which accounts for part of global impoverishment. However, semi-feudalism can hardly be taken out of the context of the capitalist-imperialist framework that it operates within.

More to the point, the point you are making about different societies is essentially moot. Marx should be taken within the context he was speaking. In his time, while there may have been class unity between the capitalists of various nations, there was hardly the economic integration of the world which we see today. Moreover, as opposed of 1848, capitalism has spread throughout the globe via imperialism. The work one does as a 'sales associate' can hardly be separated from workers in sweatshops. Instead they are separated by millions of miles but part of the same capital cycle. And again, we're talk about pay differences of a factor of 10 to 40.

The Carpenter example is silly. Most carpenters own a considerable amount of tools, thus the high wage of carpenters includes a return on capital investments. Most carpenters, even by an orthodox reading of Marx and Engles, are petty-bourgeoisie.

[Iuvo]

We never needed a violent overthrow, no vanguard party, we just needed time.

[DancingLarry]

Even if they misunderstand socialism, it's still an opening.

To me, that's the critical point. Finally an opening exists where in my thirty years of activism and agitating there's been nothing but a seemingly infinite barrier when the s-, c- and @-words get used. Finally, at least something to work with, and a reason not to despair.

[cb9's_unity]

What some people on this board aren't recognizing is that people accepting socialism isn't the important part. Instead its that, at least in their mind, they are rejecting capitalism.

[teenagebricks]

Rejecting capitalism can only go so far, without a good alternative we are all doomed.

[Communist]

"The Carpenter example is silly. Most carpenters own a considerable amount of tools, thus the high wage of carpenters includes a return on capital investments."

The carpenters I've known don't own much more than the basic tools that most people have around the house, with the exception of levels, and aren't part of any unions either (but that's in Florida, where I used to live, a state with notoriously low wages and virtually non-existent unions). And they live paycheck to paycheck. With a bit more thought, you're correct, it was a bad example.

"Most carpenters, even by an orthodox reading of Marx and Engles, are petty-bourgeoisie."

Conceded. However, the petty bourgeoisie appear to be rapidly fading, and the differences becoming less sharp.

[Communist]

Finally an opening exists where in my thirty years of activism and agitating there's been nothing but a seemingly infinite barrier when the s-, c- and @-words get used. Finally, at least something to work with, and a reason not to despair.

Absolutely. A decade or two ago the general reaction I would get from the "socialism" word was "a failed attempt to let people be lazy" (or something along those lines), while the word "communism" meant murderous tyranny.
"Anarchy" meant people running around without any rules at all, as well as something amusing that John Lydon sang about. At the very least, like I said before, we do have some kind of opening. :-).


What some people on this board aren't recognizing is that people accepting socialism isn't the important part. Instead its that, at least in their mind, they are rejecting capitalism.

Excellent observation. Especially considering that the last hundred years of government propaganda has led many (and perhaps most) Americans to equate capitalism with democracy, exclusively. Are people finally beginning to see the lie in that?


Rejecting capitalism can only go so far, without a good alternative we are all doomed.

Socialism is the alternative. Maybe not the only alternative, but most of us would agree it's the only good one. :-)

[RedScare]

It's not that surprising to me. What I run into most in my area is people saying communism and socialism is great on paper, but wouldn't actually work in real life. They accept the premise, the challenge is to show it as realistic. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of Americans were like this.

[Communist]

What I run into most in my area is people saying communism and socialism is great on paper, but wouldn't actually work in real life.

I've heard that too, but not in a long time. I hope you have a bit of time to spend with them.

[( R )evolution]

What some people on this board aren't recognizing is that people accepting socialism isn't the important part. Instead its that, at least in their mind, they are rejecting capitalism.

I agree 100%. In order for ANY revolution to be truly successful the masses must be no longer believe in change through the current civil framework. Sorry but I am pretty sure that the number of people in America who believe in this BS democracy is extremely high.

But nonetheless, this is a great sign that the exploited workers are opening up to the idea of a different system.

[LOLseph Stalin]

I agree 100%. In order for ANY revolution to be truly successful the masses must be no longer believe in change through the current civil framework. Sorry but I am pretty sure that the number of people in America who believe in this BS democracy is extremely high.

But nonetheless, this is a great sign that the exploited workers are opening up to the idea of a different system.

Heh, exactly. Even if the number is 20%(which is high for Americans:laugh:) it's still relatively low according to many other countries standards. Plus, it was never mentioned specifically which kind of Socialism it was. For all we know it could be a bunch of southerners thinking Obama is Socialist. Anyway, to go back to my original point, you'll need more than 20% to overthrow a system like America's. They have one of the most "powerful" economies in the world so I really think they would be the last to fall in a revolution although they would be crucial for success. Like you said though, we're making progress. Here in Canada too.

[Elway]

Quote:
I wouldn't say that the numbers are high, but it's progress. America of course is known to be a very reactionary, Anti-Communist country that typically isn't open to the ideas of Socialism so this 20% seem quite significant. Like you've mentioned, I wonder how many actually truly know what socialism is.
End Quote.

This comment scratches the surface, but doesn't go far enough. I believe those who have commented here that Americans equate Communism with Stalinism, and don't understand Socialism are being too kind to Americans under 30 (the poll also demonstrated there was a younger number of people who supported Socialism.)

Generally, in my opinion, young Americans don't KNOW anything about these concepts at all. They know the 1st Amendment, in a sense that they would believe that ANY preventing of discussion, or music, or use of communication is censorship. They don't know, for example, that only the State can sensor, that a parent doesn't let their children watch porn it isn't censorship in the classic sense. So they use all words like that wrongfully.

Don't give Americans under 30 credit for knowing anything about Stalin. Sure it's taught in schools, but no one's listening in history class. Everyone's watching the dismissal bell and texting one another about relationships.

[ZeroNowhere]

Don't give Americans under 30 credit for knowing anything about Stalin. Sure it's taught in schools, but no one's listening in history class. Everyone's watching the dismissal bell and texting one another about relationships.
If only. :(
Unfortunately, high school history is far too efficient for this.


I believe those who have commented here that Americans equate Communism with Stalinism, and don't understand Socialism are being too kind to Americans under 30
What.


Generally, in my opinion, young Americans don't KNOW anything about these concepts at all
I'd suspect that at least as many do as old 'murkins.


They know the 1st Amendment, in a sense that they would believe that ANY preventing of discussion, or music, or use of communication is censorship.
What's the name for ''censorship' not done by the state' anyways?


They don't know, for example, that only the State can sensor, that a parent doesn't let their children watch porn it isn't censorship in the classic sense.
It's still bullcrap, however.

[Dimentio]

Heh, exactly. Even if the number is 20%(which is high for Americans:laugh:) it's still relatively low according to many other countries standards. Plus, it was never mentioned specifically which kind of Socialism it was. For all we know it could be a bunch of southerners thinking Obama is Socialist. Anyway, to go back to my original point, you'll need more than 20% to overthrow a system like America's. They have one of the most "powerful" economies in the world so I really think they would be the last to fall in a revolution although they would be crucial for success. Like you said though, we're making progress. Here in Canada too.

I think 20% is probably okay for a fairly decentralised country.

10% is okay for a medium-centralised country.

In a hyper-centralised country, theoretically 0,1% could take over given a revolution.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

This comment scratches the surface, but doesn't go far enough. I believe those who have commented here that Americans equate Communism with Stalinism, and don't understand Socialism are being too kind to Americans under 30 (the poll also demonstrated there was a younger number of people who supported Socialism.)

Generally, in my opinion, young Americans don't KNOW anything about these concepts at all. They know the 1st Amendment, in a sense that they would believe that ANY preventing of discussion, or music, or use of communication is censorship. They don't know, for example, that only the State can sensor, that a parent doesn't let their children watch porn it isn't censorship in the classic sense. So they use all words like that wrongfully.

Don't give Americans under 30 credit for knowing anything about Stalin. Sure it's taught in schools, but no one's listening in history class. Everyone's watching the dismissal bell and texting one another about relationships.

So are you saying that because they know little about the USSR regime in actuality they don't have a negative view of Communism but they don't know what it is? Sorry if i'm wrong.

P.S. WHY DID YOU HAVE TO STEAL OUR DAWKINS????

[Elway]

So are you saying that because they know little about the USSR regime in actuality they don't have a negative view of Communism but they don't know what it is? Sorry if i'm wrong.

I suppose what I'm saying is that the VAST majority of people under 30 can't accept not being able to have access to something, or be able to go to a place, or have the freedom to hear and repeat things, but that none of this is political, merely based on social interaction.

This works against revolutionary cause just as it does work for it.

Many here would argue that private prevention of discussion of ideas is censorship. That there is a "need" in supporting revolution to see ANY prevention of the spread of ideas as censorship.

This is not only a mistake, it actually works against us.

Example: If you show up to the drama club, and decide you want to discuss basketball, and the teacher is there, and says, "leave the classroom", any you argue you're censored, that's absurd. But not knowing any other way to describe it, it seems like a good word.

Part of the history of socialism movements is how they WERE censored by the capitalist state. That's a true, political agenda, and should be separated from the jerk who wants to talk about the Nuggets instead of Shakepheare.

Most people I know under 20 are asleep at the switch, and will not protest, 'cause it interferes with their watching videos and spanking it on the computer.

Many here complain about a lack of revolutionary education in American youth. Guess what? Many on the right would make the same complaint about students not attempting to understand the Federalist Papers or the Fourteenth Amendment in their 12th grade government classes.

Hope this helped.

[nightcrowred]

I just did my own news report on this SAME article, that can be found of course at PWW.org the CPUSA's newspapers.

[Comrade B]

I noticed recently a lot more passionate responses to people learning about my radical left position. A while ago I was picking up a friend from her parent's friends place where they were having a dinner thing, her parents introduced me, and right off the bat mentioned that I am a communist, to my surprise the friends were very enthusiastic about this. On the other hand, I was sitting in a cafe a while ago and someone had heard the same about me, and made several threats against me, attempting to get me to throw a punch at him... a block from the police station.