On Israel and Zionism

[the last donut of the night]

Hello. I am a newcomer to RevLeft, but I'm already enjoying it.

I believe that Israel in its current form should be RADICALLY changed to become a state for the Arabs and Jews, not for the latter. So technically, I am an anti-Zionist, because Zionism calls for an oppressive colonial state and the literal extermination of the Arab communities around Palestine and the Holy Land. How do you guys see it?

[Pirate Utopian]

I'm against all states. Including such settlers as Israel.

[the last donut of the night]

An anarchist, I see.

[CheFighter777]

Hello. I am a newcomer to RevLeft, but I'm already enjoying it.

I believe that Israel in its current form should be RADICALLY changed to become a state for the Arabs and Jews, not for the latter. So technically, I am an anti-Zionist, because Zionism calls for an oppressive colonial state and the literal extermination of the Arab communities around Palestine and the Holy Land. How do you guys see it?

Well see if Obama, the new political Messiah can change this!!!!! :)

But my thoughts that if he gets too far accomplishing this, he might end up like Kennedy!

[the last donut of the night]

Sadly, above all the hype, one truly sees that Obama is just like his predecessors: a figurine for war, imperialism, and the good ol' American Arrogance (remember, that's trademarked :)).

[h0m0revolutionary]

Hello. I am a newcomer to RevLeft, but I'm already enjoying it.

I believe that Israel in its current form should be RADICALLY changed to become a state for the Arabs and Jews, not for the latter. So technically, I am an anti-Zionist, because Zionism calls for an oppressive colonial state and the literal extermination of the Arab communities around Palestine and the Holy Land. How do you guys see it?


Zionism comes in very different guises, all as vile as the next, but to suggest that all zionists wish to see the extermination of the indigenous arabs isn't true, many infact don't even call for their expulsion.

Also there are many other religious and national groups within Israel/Palestine that are neither Arab nor Jewish, i'd defend their right to live within whatever comes of an Israeli-Palestinian conflict resolution too.

Furthermore, Arabs can be Jews and vice versa.

Zionism to me, isn't the call for a colonial state, because they already have it, Israel is the last settler-colonial state of it's kind, so I see zionism as the movement for preservation of that state. But it has to be noted that Israel has a working class and we as Anarchists and Communists defend their interests as much as we do that of any working class in any defined territory. We therefore push for unity between the working classes of all countries, especially those of Palestine, Israel and the wider Middle East to crush zionism and the racist dehumanisation that has come to characterise it.

What we as Anarchist-Communists (I myself am of this branch) do not do however, is call for the establishments of a single state nor two states or any state solution. Our solution does not require setting up a new national bourgiose in Palestine - as that will offernothing tot he Palestinian workers, instead we call for class unity throughout all borders and nations. We support the defeat of zionism because it's expanionist and aggressive, but it's establishment and reaction is no worse than many settler states tat have preceded it and in that vein we call for the destruction of all the national bourgeoisie in all countires.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Well, yes, ultimately I don't want states either. But short of a revolution I think there should be a secular state for all the people in that area.

A movement in the US that forces the US to divest and stop military aid would go a long way in that direction because the Israeli ruling class would have to come to some agreements if they didn't have carte-blanch from the US.

But to really smash Zionism, it would probably take a huge national and working class uprising in the middle east that topples leaders in Egypt and many other countries. The Arab ruling classes and the US ruling class basically allow Israel to do what it does and pretty much only the working class can threaten these other forces enough for them to abandon support of Israel.

[the last donut of the night]

Thank you for clearing up some of my misconceptions. Although you bring up a good argument for anarchism, and I am a socialist; it would be better for us to leave this matter in another thread.

Israel is a complicated state because of its history. It tried to keep a veneer of socialism in its beginning, with the Histradut, and the kibbutzim, but all it succeeded in doing was to divide the working classes. Furthermore, the Israeli ruling classes fools the newcoming Jewish immigrant workers into all this Zionistic B.S. To fight against Israel is to fight for the union of the oppressed Palestinian and fooled Israeli workers.

[LOLseph Stalin]

Hello. I am a newcomer to RevLeft, but I'm already enjoying it.

I believe that Israel in its current form should be RADICALLY changed to become a state for the Arabs and Jews, not for the latter. So technically, I am an anti-Zionist, because Zionism calls for an oppressive colonial state and the literal extermination of the Arab communities around Palestine and the Holy Land. How do you guys see it?

I think it depends on the point of view. Yes, i'm sure there could possibly be some extremist Zionists who call for the extermination of the Arabs surrounding Israel(just like there's Muslim extremists), but most of them just want the Jews to have the land that was given to them. The problem is that much of this land lies on Palestinian land such as Gaza. The Jews see this as their land and is trying to extend their territory into there. Of course this angers the Palestinians so this caused Hamas to go to war against these Imperialists. Hamas of course is reactionary, but many people here support them on the fact that they're anti-imperialistic. To sum it up, I would say that Zionism is pretty much just a fancy name for Jewish Imperialism.

[h0m0revolutionary]

I would say that Zionism is pretty much just a fancy name for Jewish Imperialism.

You're on thin ice their comrade

And wrong too. Not all Jews are zionists and a great number of zionsts are not Jewish.

[LOLseph Stalin]

And wrong too. Not all Jews are zionists and a great number of zionsts are not Jewish.

I know that not all Jews are Zionists. I was making a general statement. However, alot of Jews are Zionists. At least the ones in Israel.

[AvanteRedGarde]

Don't bash the guy for speaking the truth.

Israel is a settler-state lackey of imperialism, which exists solely through the theft of Palestinian land. It deserves nothing but our contempt.

I support Jews who support Palestinians. That doesn't mean we should be all PC, or liars depending on which way your are looking at it, and cover up the fact that a large majority of Jews in reality support Israel.

The comrade is brave enough to speak up about the conditions there, as he sees them through experience. Thank you for your honesty.

[Patchd]

I know that not all Jews are Zionists. I was making a general statement. However, alot of Jews are Zionists. At least the ones in Israel.

Not these ones: Anarchists Against the Wall (http://www.awalls.org/) ;)

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

I think that it is pretty clear that both groups have their own issues which preclude the path towards reconciliation and peace.

Obviously, in general american debate I find myself arguing on behalf of the Palestinians in most respects, but on here I have to point out that thousands of Israelis have been born in the state of Israel and we should knock off the whole wet-dream of driving the Jews into the sea. Because it's not going to happen.

That said, Netanyahu is one crazy motherfucker who is now saying either Obama stop his reconciliation talk and bring up the heat or he'll go after Iran (http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200903u/netanyahu) himself. Despite the obvious opposition to any pre-emptive war, this brings up some interesting questions. Chiefly, can Israel pull it off, and do so without begining a regional war? To this I would have to say no.

First, the Iranians aren't stupid. They saw how easy it was for the Israeli's to do away with Saddam's reactor which was conveniently put in one place. I find it highly unlikely that the Iranians have announced all locations (not that I blame them if his is the case).

Second, to strike Iran, Israel would need to cross Iraqi airspace and, more than likely, would need to re-fuel inflight at least once. If the Iraqis refuse (which they will do so) then they will charge the USAF to perform its role in protecting Iraqi airspace. Needless to say, this would create quite a hairy situation. Now, the US is never going to shoot at an Israeli. If they are unencumbered and allowed to strike Iran then the Iraqi's will have no choices but either request the immediate departure of all US forces or face political suicide. And who knows, maybe Obama would have the balls to block it? Wishful thinking, and I am obviously inclined to doubt it.

Third, I have no idea where the Israelis get the crazy idea that striking Iran won't start a regional conflict that will, at the very least, temporarily shut down the oil lanes. The Israelis may be able to justify to the US killing hundreds of children, but driving up the price of oil, in the middle of a recession, again? Hell no, if it's a choice between cheap oil from despots and a Jewish state I say fuck the zionists, but that's just me.

Anyway, sorry to derail the thread a bit.

Also, regarding the linked-to-above intervie in the Atlantic, in which Netanyahu was talking it up with the, let's face it, large swath of intelligentsia which treats Israel like the golden calf:


Netanyahu offered Iran’s behavior during its eight-year war with Iraq as proof of Tehran’s penchant for irrational behavior. Iran “wasted over a million lives without batting an eyelash … It didn’t sear a terrible wound into the Iranian consciousness. It wasn’t Britain after World War I, lapsing into pacifism because of the great tragedy of a loss of a generation. You see nothing of the kind.”Now, naturally the brownnose asskisser writing this didn't question this statement at all. However, this doesn't pass The Cults Official Bullshit Detector:

During the Iran-Iraq War, Iran had chemical weapons and chose not to use them. That's right, chose not to use a WMD a few pegs down from the one Israel is fearing on moral grounds. So, this might mean that Netanyahu would have approved of the use of such weapons in order to lessen one's own casualty rate. Surely, he would have forgiven the Iranians if they had chosen to do so and wouldn't use it to justify attacking them?

As if.

BTW, I have really enjoyed Roger Cohen's reports from Iran for the NY Times.

Did you know Iran has about 25,000 Jews (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/23/opinion/23cohen.html)?

[Yehuda Stern]

A short reply as I have to go:

1. Israel is indeed a colonial settler state, however, there is a minority of the Jewish working class that could become revolutionary and join the Palestinian working class revolution under the right conditions.

2. This does not change the fact that Jews are privileged in relation to Palestinians, and for the most part, support the Zionist state against the Palestinians at all times.