Raul's western friendly reforms

[LeninBalls]

http://progressivelabor.890m.com/index.php/challenge-newspaper/browse-by-category/latin-america/40-latin-america/989-raul-castro-following-chinas-capitalist-model

Is this for real or what, because this is the only time I've ever seen this so mayhaps it hopefully is bullshit or else we're just left with N. Korea.

[h0m0revolutionary]

or else we're just left with Laos and N. Korea.

You're joking right?

[LeninBalls]

Not Laos, I vaguely remember them being socialist but apparently not.

[Sasha]

probily more socialist than north korea :closedeyes:

[dez]

seems legit, but I wonder to what extent Raul is venezuelan-phobe.

[h0m0revolutionary]

Not Laos, I vaguely remember them being socialist but apparently not.

Im intruiged, please do elaborate as to why N.Korea is or has ever been socialsit? And if so, can the limited gains of the N.Korean under Kim Jong-il working class justify the barbarity of the Democratic Front for the Reunification of the Fatherland?

If that's socialism, then i'm content with capitlaism thanks. At least it grants me some basic freedoms.. ;)

[dez]

Im intruiged, please do elaborate as to then i'm content with capitlaism thanks. At least it grants me some basic freedoms.. ;)

As long as you are not threatening the status quo, or the status quo does not feel threatened, or the status quo does not wants to take away those freedoms from you for profiteering and whatnot, yes, you have some basic freedoms.

[mykittyhasaboner]

Laos adopted a new constitution in 1991. Considering that it was the year 1991, Id say they were removing most references to Marxism-Leninism, it would make sense. So yeah, "we" don't have Laos.

[Sasha]

wich is way worse than north korea where
As long as you are not threatening the status quo, or the status quo does not feel threatened, or the status quo does not wants to take away your life from you for profiteering and whatnot, yes, you wont be murderd.

[Das war einmal]

Im intruiged, please do elaborate as to why N.Korea is or has ever been socialsit? And if so, can the limited gains of the N.Korean under Kim Jong-il working class justify the barbarity of the Democratic Front for the Reunification of the Fatherland?

If that's socialism, then i'm content with capitlaism thanks. At least it grants me some basic freedoms.. ;)

Of course, freedoms attained by left movements and labour unions. Without that you would be still discriminated for being gay. Did you know that the GDR had legalized homosexuality decades before West Germany? Only thing that is free in capitalism is free market.

[Sasha]

yeah! and you know hitler build realy nice highways?

[dez]

wich is way worse than north korea where

So its an issue of political momentum and not of political system.


Of course, freedoms attained by left movements and labour unions. Without that you would be still discriminated for being gay. Did you know that the GDR had legalized homosexuality decades before West Germany? Only thing that is free in capitalism is free market.

Actually, the market is not really free either.
The bourgeoise intervene in it whenever they think its profitable.
Like subsides regarding more competitive foreign products or... Bailouts whenever they are near bankrupcy.

[h0m0revolutionary]

Of course, freedoms attained by left movements and labour unions. Without that you would be still discriminated for being gay. Did you know that the GDR had legalized homosexuality decades before West Germany? Only thing that is free in capitalism is free market.

You don't get discrimminated against for being LGBTQ in N.Korea, are you havign a laugh?!

http://www.globalgayz.com/northkorea-news.html

I dunno where to start on this one! *sigh*

[dez]

yeah! and you know hitler build realy nice highways?

Because highways are exactly the same thing as legalizing homossexuality.

[9]

I've heard this before too, that Raul is "pro-business" and things to that effect, which have worried me. I can't verify any of it at the moment, though.

[Sasha]

while we are bussy deyrailing (an idiot thread to begin with) i found this intresting news item:
In the past two months, the bodies of as many as 25 boys and men suspected of being gay have turned up in the huge Shiite enclave of Sadr City, the police and friends of the dead say. Most have been shot, some multiple times. Several have been found with the word “pervert” in Arabic on notes attached to their bodies, the police said.

“Three of my closest friends have been killed during the past two weeks alone,” said Basim, 23, a hairdresser... Basim, who would not give his last name out of fear for his safety, said he knew at least 20 young men from Sadr City’s large but hidden gay community who had disappeared during the past two months. He said he had learned later that each was found dead. After three of his friends were killed, he stayed inside his house for a week. Recently he has begun to go out again. source: newyorktimes

remind me again why people over here support el Sadr and other religious insurgents?

[Sasha]

Because highways are exactly the same thing as legalizing homossexuality.

no but the fact that he build nice highways is as relevant as the fact that homosexuality was legalised (and i'm very doubtfull if it was also the case in praxis) in the GDR is too wheter or not being oposed to the dictatorship of n-korea

[dez]

You don't get discrimminated against for being LGBTQ in N.Korea, are you havign a laugh?!

http://www.globalgayz.com/northkorea-news.html

I dunno where to start on this one! *sigh*


Fellow communists they might be; but Cuban women had deplorably lax morals and were strictly off limits

Oh, because those cuban women-objects were immoral men needed to be informed as to what they could and couldnt do with them.



It might be my superficial impression, but I dont think that website is realiable.

[h0m0revolutionary]

Oh, because those cuban women-objects were immoral men needed to be informed as to what they could and couldnt do with them.



It might be my superficial impression, but I dont think that website is realiable.
[/SIZE][/FONT]


Pfft, why not actually come back and prove me wrong. In your apologism you're complicit in the murder of thousands of LGBTQ people!

[dez]

Pfft, why not actually come back and prove me wrong. In your apologism you're complicit in the murder of thousands of LGBTQ people!

You are the one in need to prove things.
Fidel has openly stated that homossexuality is natural, apologized for early chauvinist stances (which, by the way, were disseminated all over latin american left. Machismo of sorts) and promoted tolerance in cuba.

[dez]

no but the fact that he build nice highways is as relevant as the fact that homosexuality was legalised (and i'm very doubtfull if it was also the case in praxis) in the GDR is too wheter or not being oposed to the dictatorship of n-korea

Building highways and large buildings in general is a traditional allienating praxis of fascist regimes.
They enlarge national pride and make their government seem godly.
Striving for the rights of the oppressed is a whole different business.
You just cant compare the two.

[KC]

Pfft, why not actually come back and prove me wrong.

You didn't prove anything. Your link is highly suspect; just because GlobalGayz says it doesn't make it true.

[h0m0revolutionary]

You are the one in need to prove things.
Fidel has openly stated that homossexuality is natural, apologized for early chauvinist stances (which, by the way, were disseminated all over latin american left. Machismo of sorts) and promoted tolerance in cuba.

Pfft :/
To deny homophobia within the Cuban state is just stupid, and I;m guessing you know it.

Homosexual behaviour is tolerated by the authorities, but gay clubs and bars have only semi-legal status and are regualled raided by police authorities. Homosexual behaviour that causes a 'public scandel' (what the fuck?!) is punishable by up to 12months imprisonment. LGBTQ publications ARE NOT allowed, they are infact specifically outlawed - in 1997 the Cuban Assosciation of Gays and lesbians was disbanded by the state and many of it's leading emmebrs arrested

Castro can apologise for his past homophobia all he wants, but i'd take him alot more serously if he's combat his CURRENT homophobia at the same time. Cuba has very litle artistic, sexual or political freedom, I can't see what there is to defend, especially in the realm of sexuality.

Groundless apologism =/

[Sasha]

Building highways and large buildings in general is a traditional allienating praxis of fascist regimes.
They enlarge national pride and make their government seem godly.
Striving for the rights of the oppressed is a whole different business.
You just cant compare the two.

you make it so easy:

http://vanibahl.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/ryugyong-hotel-lg.jpg

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/images/30ddr/30ddr-17.jpg

http://image44.webshots.com/45/5/2/68/376050268MyPATC_fs.jpg

[9]

This article says a bit as well: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/north_america/jan-june09/cuba_01-01.html

[Patchd]

You are the one in need to prove things.
Fidel has openly stated that homossexuality is natural, apologized for early chauvinist stances (which, by the way, were disseminated all over latin american left. Machismo of sorts) and promoted tolerance in cuba.

One of my old comrades back when I wasn't Libertarian has a boyfriend from Cuba. Despite it being considered, as you say, "natural" by Castro, his boyfriend and his family still face social problems with regards to his sexuality, not only that, but certain institutions still discriminate against him, again, on the same grounds.

In a nation which many Stalinists here would consider "Socialist", why then has the social feeling towards homosexuality still not been given much consideration, why has there not been a large social push by the "Socialist" state to rid Cuba of homophobia?

... and simply to just say, "well Globalgayz or any other bourgeois media source will distort all figures and probably aren't true" isn't a decent counter-argument either, usually, even within bourgeois news sources or liberal campaigns, a lot of what they have to say is actually based on real figures and facts. Complete all out lying would simply rouse too much suspicion, so lets all stop with this "just because it's bourgeois, it's unreliable" crap please.

[dez]

you make it so easy:

http://vanibahl.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/ryugyong-hotel-lg.jpg

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/images/30ddr/30ddr-17.jpg

http://image44.webshots.com/45/5/2/68/376050268MyPATC_fs.jpg

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~yke/photoqual/results/statue_results/3_NYC_New_York_Liberty_Statue_b.jpg

You too.



Large buildings are not a sign of progress, but they are not a sign of fascism either.

[dez]

One of my old comrades back when I wasn't Libertarian has a boyfriend from Cuba. Despite it being considered natural by Castro, his boyfriend and his family still face social problems with regards to his sexuality, not only that, but certain institutions still discriminate against him, again, on the same grounds.

In a nation which many Stalinists here would consider "Socialist", why then has the social feeling towards homosexuality still not been given much consideration, why has there not been a large social push by the "Socialist" state to rid Cuba of homophobia?

... and simply to just say, "well Globalgayz or any other bourgeois media source will distort all figures and probably aren't true" isn't a decent counter-argument either, usually, even within bourgeois news sources or liberal campaigns, a lot of what they have to say is actually based on real figures. Complete all out lying would simply rouse too much suspicion, so lets all stop with this "just because it's bourgeois, it's unreliable" crap please.

Compare cuba and the rest of latin america, and you will realize that the situation for homossexuals there is better than most places.

Remember you are talking about the same bourgeois media that wants to promote castro as an evil children-eating commie.

[h0m0revolutionary]

Compare cuba and the rest of latin america, and you will realize that the situation for homossexuals there is better than most places.

Remember you are talking about the same bourgeois media that wants to promote castro as an evil children-eating commie.


Poor.

[dez]

Poor.

Arbitrary.

[Patchd]

Compare cuba and the rest of latin america, and you will realize that the situation for homossexuals there is better than most places.

I don't care, and I doubt neither do the homosexuals who do face discrimination in Cuba care either whether their record is "better" than other nations in Latin America or not.


Remember you are talking about the same bourgeois media that wants to promote castro as an evil children-eating commie.

So? What's your point, yes I agree they lie in many cases, however, there have been human rights groups who claim the same thing, and not all of them are necessarily "out there to get Castro". In addition, are you saying everything the bourgeois press has to say on Cuba is false? Like I said before, sometimes they don't need to lie to get a story. :rolleyes:

[dez]

I don't care, and I doubt neither do the homosexuals who do face discrimination in Cuba care either whether their record is "better" than other nations in Latin America or not.



So? What's your point, yes I agree they lie in many cases, however, there have been human rights groups who claim the same thing, and they aren't necessarily "out to get Castro".

I dont think cuba (or anywhere else, for that matter) is a perfect place, but while I see no media coverage against abuses (sometimes physical) against homossexuals in my own city, I get to read it about cuba in international media sources.

[Patchd]

I dont think cuba (or anywhere else, for that matter) is a perfect place, but while I see no media coverage against abuses (sometimes physical) against homossexuals in my own city, I get to read it about cuba in international media sources.

Yeah ... your point? I know that the bourgeois media are extremely biased against Cuba, and most times would present very little supportive coverage of it, however, it doesn't detract from the point I made before. Jeez, what don't you understand?

[dez]

Yeah ... your point? I know that the bourgeois media are extremely biased against Cuba, and most times would present very little supportive coverage of it, however, it doesn't detract from the point I made before. Jeez, what don't you understand?

Your point was that cuba was not socialist.
What is socialism, by your definition?


And do you realize that a discussion about raul castros switch towards capitalism turned into a discussion over homossexual rights in cuba?
Why do you think that is?

[h0m0revolutionary]

Your point was that cuba was not socialist.
What is socialism, by your definition?


And do you realize that a discussion about raul castros switch towards capitalism turned into a discussion over homossexual rights in cuba?
Why do you think that is?


I do believe it's because you diverted the thread away frm defending North Korea

Amirite :lol:

[Patchd]

Your point was that cuba was not socialist.
What is socialism, by your definition?

And do you realize that a discussion about raul castros switch towards capitalism turned into a discussion over homossexual rights in cuba?
Why do you think that is?

I don't care, nor do I have time because I'm off to the pub now, but if you don't think creating an egalitarian society devoid of social inequalities is prerequisite for Socialism among other things then frankly I'll be surprised.

Why? Because we're allies of the bourgeoisie of course and we want to discredit Cuba because it's such a great example of Socialism. ;)

[Das war einmal]

You don't get discrimminated against for being LGBTQ in N.Korea, are you havign a laugh?!

http://www.globalgayz.com/northkorea-news.html

I dunno where to start on this one! *sigh*


You said capitalism gave you some basic rights, I denounced that by saying the fact that the GDR had legalized homosexuality decades before West Germany did.

[dez]

I don't care, nor do I have time because I'm off to the pub now, but if you don't think creating an egalitarian society devoid of social inequalities is prerequisite for Socialism among other things then frankly I'll be surprised.

Why? Because we're allies of the bourgeoisie of course and we want to discredit Cuba because it's such a great example of Socialism. ;)

I think that through empowering the proletariat and making a consistent campaign in favour of egalitarianism bringing up issues of different social groups will bring more change than just letting them fight for it under the rule of individualism that is capitalism.
Cuba made an effort on that direction, how much they succeeded is debatable, but wouldnt the way towards progress be constructive as opposed to destructive?

[Das war einmal]

no but the fact that he build nice highways is as relevant as the fact that homosexuality was legalised (and i'm very doubtfull if it was also the case in praxis) in the GDR is too wheter or not being oposed to the dictatorship of n-korea


The topic wasnt about North Korea to begin with so stop being an ass.

[Antioch]

Well, IMO, Cuba really hasn't been socialist for awhile (although I don't have an exact date), so I think the only countries "we" can even consider "having" are Bolivia and maybe Venezuela and Nicaragua.

[dez]

Well, IMO, Cuba really hasn't been socialist for awhile (although I don't have an exact date), so I think the only countries "we" can even consider "having" are Bolivia and maybe Venezuela and Nicaragua.

Why is that?

[mykittyhasaboner]

Well, IMO, Cuba really hasn't been socialist for awhile (although I don't have an exact date), so I think the only countries "we" can even consider "having" are Bolivia and maybe Venezuela and Nicaragua.

Really? Are you serious?

[Magdalen]

The recent reforms in Cuba have strengthened the socialist system, not weakened it, despite the wishful thinking of some commentators in the bourgeois media, and on some parts of the left. We must view these reforms in the context of the time in which they have occurred, a time of Cuba's emergence from the long hard years of the Special Period, and yet a time of renewed capitalist crisis globally. Raúl has correctly identified this as 'a crucial juncture in Cuban history'. From shrinking nearly 40% in the immediate aftermath of the collapse of the Soviet Union, Cuba's GDP has been growing at a consistent rate of 7.5-12.5% a year between 2005 and 2007, and a rate of 8% in 2008, despite the island being hit by two of the worst hurricanes in a century, and the beginning of the global capitalist crisis. This rapid GDP growth has been principally directed into restoring the island's infrastructure, such as the aquisition of new buses from China, Belarus and the DPRK, the renovation of Cuba's road and rail links, the construction of new power plants to make Cuba electrically self-sufficient, and in the reopening of factories closed during the Special Period. These changes have been accompanied by recentralisation of financial institutions and a re-emphasis on centralised state planning (such as de-dollarisation in 2004, and the introduction of Army markets undercutting private markets) reducing the spread of capitalist market relations in the Cuban economy. However, as Raúl noted in his first speech after taking over as Acting President in 2006, 'Many of these investments will not come to fruition for perhaps five years – there will therefore be a limit or delay to the direct material gains experienced in the daily lives of Cubans in the interim period.' Personal consumption still lies at a level significantly lower than that of 1991. It is this problem which the reforms have aimed to correct.

In April last year, following over a million proposals made during a period of popular consultation, and considerable debate during the February session of the National Assembly about the excess of 'prohibitions' in Cuba, new services were announced making mobile phones, computers and DVD players more readily available, and making it easier for Cubans to rent cars and use tourist hotels. All of these restrictions were introduced during the special period as circulars to prevent a growth in inequality, but were no longer necessary in a time when the Cuban people have improved technological means (through the renovated electrical system), and improved financial means. In the field of mobile phones, priority has been given to isolated rural areas, such as in the Sierra Maestra, which still suffers from a lack of landline connections. Pablo Valiente, a leading journalist for Juventud Rebelde, the newspaper of the Union of Young Communists, noted that the rates offered by ETECSA, the state telecommunications company, were among the cheapest in the world, despite the Caribbean being a notoriously expensive area for phone services.

The changes in the Council of Ministers, in particular the removal of Carlos Lage and Felipe Perez Roque from their positions, have also elicited a wide spectrum of deliberately ignorant reactions from the capitalist press and less enlightened sections of the left, such as the Progressive Labor Party in the United States. On March 3rd, in one of his regular reflections, Fidel noted that 'healthy changes' had taken place, despite the international bourgeois media's attempts to further and/or create 'rumours on the street' about how 'Fidel's men' had been replaced by 'Raúl's men'. He noted that neither of the men were 'Fidel's men', as they had never been proposed by him in the first place, rather by other members of the Party or State leadership. He noted that neither of the two men had uttered any disagreement with their removal, following their seduction by the 'sweet nectar of power', and the fact that 'the enemy outside had built up their hopes for them' (for obvious reasons, Fidel could not mention the exact acts the men had committed, but we should look no further than Miami and Washington). Rather than being 'Raúl's men', Fidel described the new Ministers as being 'genuine revolutionaries, bearing loyalty to their principles'. However, the unfortunate, but necessary removals of Lage and Roque were not the only events to take place. Osmany Cienfuegos (elder brother of Camilo) and Pablo Miret, two elderly members of the Council of Ministers, who had both served with honour during the Revolutionary War of 1956-59, retired due to ill health. Nonetheless, Reuters and EFE attempted to portray these retirals as further 'firings'. Fidel responded to these allegations in his reflection of March 25th, describing them as 'lies in the service of the empire'. Finally, and arguably most significantly, several ministries were re-organised and streamlined. For example, the Ministry of Fishing was merged back into the Ministry of the Agriculture in order to better co-ordinate food production. These steps marked a clear return to more centralised, socialist state planning, and yet they has been completly ignored by the Progressive Labour Party.

[Magdalen]

As an addendum, here's a link to Richard Roques' excellent article on gay rights in Cuba from the website of Rock Around The Blockade, the RCG's British campaign in support of socialist Cuba.

http://www.ratb.org.uk/frfi/181news.HTML (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.ratb.org.uk/frfi/181news.HTML) (It's the third article down on the page)

[Andropov]

The recent reforms in Cuba have strengthened the socialist system, not weakened it, despite the wishful thinking of some commentators in the bourgeois media, and on some parts of the left. We must view these reforms in the context of the time in which they have occurred, a time of Cuba's emergence from the long hard years of the Special Period, and yet a time of renewed capitalist crisis globally. Raúl has correctly identified this as 'a crucial juncture in Cuban history'. From shrinking nearly 40% in the immediate aftermath of the collapse of the Soviet Union, Cuba's GDP has been growing at a consistent rate of 7.5-12.5% a year between 2005 and 2007, and a rate of 8% in 2008, despite the island being hit by two of the worst hurricanes in a century, and the beginning of the global capitalist crisis. This rapid GDP growth has been principally directed into restoring the island's infrastructure, such as the aquisition of new buses from China, Belarus and the DPRK, the renovation of Cuba's road and rail links, the construction of new power plants to make Cuba electrically self-sufficient, and in the reopening of factories closed during the Special Period. These changes have been accompanied by recentralisation of financial institutions and a re-emphasis on centralised state planning (such as de-dollarisation in 2004, and the introduction of Army markets undercutting private markets) reducing the spread of capitalist market relations in the Cuban economy. However, as Raúl noted in his first speech after taking over as Acting President in 2006, 'Many of these investments will not come to fruition for perhaps five years – there will therefore be a limit or delay to the direct material gains experienced in the daily lives of Cubans in the interim period.' Personal consumption still lies at a level significantly lower than that of 1991. It is this problem which the reforms have aimed to correct.

In April last year, following over a million proposals made during a period of popular consultation, and considerable debate during the February session of the National Assembly about the excess of 'prohibitions' in Cuba, new services were announced making mobile phones, computers and DVD players more readily available, and making it easier for Cubans to rent cars and use tourist hotels. All of these restrictions were introduced during the special period as circulars to prevent a growth in inequality, but were no longer necessary in a time when the Cuban people have improved technological means (through the renovated electrical system), and improved financial means. In the field of mobile phones, priority has been given to isolated rural areas, such as in the Sierra Maestra, which still suffers from a lack of landline connections. Pablo Valiente, a leading journalist for Juventud Rebelde, the newspaper of the Union of Young Communists, noted that the rates offered by ETECSA, the state telecommunications company, were among the cheapest in the world, despite the Caribbean being a notoriously expensive area for phone services.

The changes in the Council of Ministers, in particular the removal of Carlos Lage and Felipe Perez Roque from their positions, have also elicited a wide spectrum of deliberately ignorant reactions from the capitalist press and less enlightened sections of the left, such as the Progressive Labor Party in the United States. On March 3rd, in one of his regular reflections, Fidel noted that 'healthy changes' had taken place, despite the international bourgeois media's attempts to further and/or create 'rumours on the street' about how 'Fidel's men' had been replaced by 'Raúl's men'. He noted that neither of the men were 'Fidel's men', as they had never been proposed by him in the first place, rather by other members of the Party or State leadership. He noted that neither of the two men had uttered any disagreement with their removal, following their seduction by the 'sweet nectar of power', and the fact that 'the enemy outside had built up their hopes for them' (for obvious reasons, Fidel could not mention the exact acts the men had committed, but we should look no further than Miami and Washington). Rather than being 'Raúl's men', Fidel described the new Ministers as being 'genuine revolutionaries, bearing loyalty to their principles'. However, the unfortunate, but necessary removals of Lage and Roque were not the only events to take place. Osmany Cienfuegos (elder brother of Camilo) and Pablo Miret, two elderly members of the Council of Ministers, who had both served with honour during the Revolutionary War of 1956-59, retired due to ill health. Nonetheless, Reuters and EFE attempted to portray these retirals as further 'firings'. Fidel responded to these allegations in his reflection of March 25th, describing them as 'lies in the service of the empire'. Finally, and arguably most significantly, several ministries were re-organised and streamlined. For example, the Ministry of Fishing was merged back into the Ministry of the Agriculture in order to better co-ordinate food production. These step marked a clear return to more centralised, socialist state planning, and yet it has been completly ignored by the Progressive Labour Party.

Brilliant post.
Sums it up perfectly.
Only last week the exact same argument was put forward by the Cuban Ambassador to Ireland at a meeting I was at.
These limited market reforms are only in response to the calamity of the USSR collapsing and the special period.
As he said, Cuba are still feeling the aftermath of the special period.