Keira Knightley's domestic abuse ad...

[Os Cangaceiros]

I saw this on the news recently, and thought it was interesting:

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861&cl=12801676&ch=4226723&src=news

I don't understand how people can think that some of those ads went "too far", considering the severity of some of the topics, like domestic abuse and workplace safety.

[Pirate Utopian]

Why tone down the violence in an ad about violence?

Also I saw cook one before, that one was pretty brutal to watch but not "too far".

[Invincible Summer]

The media always says things go "too far" when it shows the truth.

[The Idler]

I saw this on the news recently, and thought it was interesting:

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861&cl=12801676&ch=4226723&src=news

I don't understand how people can think that some of those ads went "too far", considering the severity of some of the topics, like domestic abuse and workplace safety.Ads can go too far when they are hurtful, upsetting and distressing to viewers who have nothing to do with the issues. Even if the end justified the means, its debatable as to how effective they are, at reducing domestic violence or increasing workplace safety for example.

Classic example is leftists who think showing pictures of maimed children in Gaza will end the Israeli occupation by upsetting enough viewers.

[Pogue]

Thats the reality of it. If it breaks some twat out of his little sphere of comfort then thats fucking brilliant, maybe then people will realise what a problem this sort of thing is.

Its like when someone on the radio said about those 'God probably doesn't exist' bus adverts, they said they should be banned cos and I quote 'A little child saw it and cried. I don't think anyone is thinking about the effect this is having on children.'

People need to be broken out of their comfort zones and realise what the world is really like. Some people are so pathetic and sheltered they can't deal with anything. The point is not to hide from things like domestic violence but try and stamp it out, same with all things, such as rape, racism, and in terms of facing up to reality, dealing with the prospect that some of your beliefs and assumptions are wrong.

[Dimentio]

I saw this on the news recently, and thought it was interesting:

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861&cl=12801676&ch=4226723&src=news

I don't understand how people can think that some of those ads went "too far", considering the severity of some of the topics, like domestic abuse and workplace safety.

I don't think that was gross.

This one's gross.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kA0y19mrpLo

[Pogue]

I don't think that was gross.

This one's gross.

kA0y19mrpLo

That one is too obviously fake, because you don't see the impact, although yes whats left to your imagination is obviously gross. What series is that?

[Stranger Than Paradise]

The bald guy questions the motive? Idiot.

[The Idler]

Thats the reality of it. If it breaks some twat out of his little sphere of comfort then thats fucking brilliant, maybe then people will realise what a problem this sort of thing is.

Its like when someone on the radio said about those 'God probably doesn't exist' bus adverts, they said they should be banned cos and I quote 'A little child saw it and cried. I don't think anyone is thinking about the effect this is having on children.'

People need to be broken out of their comfort zones and realise what the world is really like. Some people are so pathetic and sheltered they can't deal with anything. The point is not to hide from things like domestic violence but try and stamp it out, same with all things, such as rape, racism, and in terms of facing up to reality, dealing with the prospect that some of your beliefs and assumptions are wrong.

Shock (or "breaking people out of their comfort zone") alone is not a magic bullet strategy or a substitute for reasoned debate. If shock tactics were above criticism and always worked then nobody would smoke since they introduced pictures of mouth cancer on cigarette packets in the UK.

Many successful "offensive" campaigns use informed, intelligent, critical but "offensive" statements (such as "God probably doesn't exist") rather than deliberately harrowing prurient gore (which usually both sides in a violent conflict can present anyway). Palestinian dead bodies really would terrify children and they're powerless to do anything about it so it seems a little unfair to expose them to it.

[Dimentio]

That one is too obviously fake, because you don't see the impact, although yes whats left to your imagination is obviously gross. What series is that?

Its a BBC docudrama about ancient Rome. That is the episode about Nero.

[Module]

That health and safety one was really horrific. That would make me think twice before ignoring a mess on the floor if I worked in a kitchen.

[al8]

Link is not working, all I get is Ultra-Soft ass-wipe commercials.

[RHIZOMES]

The PSA ads about domestic violence and drinking in NZ are like 5 times more graphic than that.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

I don't think that was gross.

This one's gross.

kA0y19mrpLo

The Battle For Rome was a badass series.

Anyway, on topic, yeah that's pretty bad. I have to be honest though, I can't stand women who feel loyalty to their abusive spouses. Not as much as the abuser, of course, but come on it's the 21st century not the 50s.

[Module]

I have to be honest though, I can't stand women who feel loyalty to their abusive spouses.
I'm not in the mood to make a full reply to this but, that is such an ignorant thing to say.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Why? If you aren't willing to report your spouse or seek help in the situation, you might as well learn to enjoy it because nothing is going to change.

When a woman accepts the beatdown her spouse gives her, she is spitting in the face of every feminist who ever lived.

[Herman]

Why? If you aren't willing to report your spouse or seek help in the situation, you might as well learn to enjoy it because nothing is going to change.

When a woman accepts the beatdown her spouse gives her, she is spitting in the face of every feminist who ever lived.

Really? So when someone you've been living with for many years, someone who has kept threatening and beating you, someone who has the ability to perfectly kill you as it is with many Spanish husbands who kill their wives and then commit suicide, these sort of events which lead to the deaths of around 50 women yearly in Spain alone, most of whom have reported their husbands to the police for domestic abuse and have received little aid, that means that the woman is "spitting in the face of every feminist who ever lived"?

Are you completely stupid or did you forget one of the most basic ideals of every leftist, no matter how radical or moderate, which is SOLIDARITY?

[Module]

Why? If you aren't willing to report your spouse or seek help in the situation, you might as well learn to enjoy it because nothing is going to change.

When a woman accepts the beatdown her spouse gives her, she is spitting in the face of every feminist who ever lived.What an absolutely absurd thing to say. Any feminist with a sliver of empathy and common sense understands what victims of domestic violence experience.
It is definitely not just about "accepting the beatdown"; it is often the case that these women genuinely fear for their lives if they were to tell the police, because their boyfriends/husbands continually threaten them, and bully them, and totally destroy their self esteem. Domestic violence in real situations isn't always simply somebody punching their partner and their partner then making the free rational choice to stay with them. There is often a great deal of mental manipulation involved, scaring their partner into not leaving, or convincing them that it is their partner's fault that they abuse them, or guilt-tripping their partners into accepting them. That is why many victims have to result to getting restraining orders against their abusers, and suffer many other consequences, mentally, for years to follow, such as having suicide rates 5 times higher than the general population.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Why? If you aren't willing to report your spouse or seek help in the situation, you might as well learn to enjoy it because nothing is going to change.

When a woman accepts the beatdown her spouse gives her, she is spitting in the face of every feminist who ever lived.

I feel that that's an overly simplistic view of the situation. There are a number of psychological effects (feelings of fear, dependence, etc.) associated with domineering, violent relationships, making the situation not as simple as you make it sound.

[Dimentio]

I feel that that's an overly simplistic view of the situation. There are a number of psychological effects (feelings of fear, dependence, etc.) associated with domineering, violent relationships, making the situation not as simple as you make it sound.

The main problem is that while she certainly - at least in a country like Sweden - could put her man behind bars, he has shown that he could hurt her and the children. He is'nt rational, so when he gets out of prison, she is in the risk of being stalked, etc...

[ls]

That is a good advert.


Thats the reality of it. If it breaks some twat out of his little sphere of comfort then thats fucking brilliant, maybe then people will realise what a problem this sort of thing is.


How true. Often the best adverts do end up banned to add insult to injury.



People need to be broken out of their comfort zones and realise what the world is really like. Some people are so pathetic and sheltered they can't deal with anything. The point is not to hide from things like domestic violence but try and stamp it out, same with all things, such as rape, racism, and in terms of facing up to reality, dealing with the prospect that some of your beliefs and assumptions are wrong.

Not to detract from the OP I don't know if you've seen the Barnardo ads that were banned? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3304577.stm the dirty ****s banned adverts depicting horrific baby abuse.

I guess they want to try and crackdown upon the latest (http://tinyurl.com/63f4bx) series of Barnardos adverts too, bastards.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Anyone who claims "that is too far" is disgusting and should be ashamed of themselves. I would say it didnt go far enough , I know of cases in which women have had there teeth knocked out , ribs broken and have ended up needing professional help after becoming nervous wrecks.

I dont think this would have effected me when i was six if it was more upsetting and graphic like the car adverts in the UK then yet certainly it would have effected me and made sure I was very wary of this kind of shit without having to know the victims of such abuse.

[Dimentio]

Anyone who claims "that is too far" is disgusting and should be ashamed of themselves. I would say it didnt go far enough , I know of cases in which women have had there teeth knocked out , ribs broken and have ended up needing professional help after becoming nervous wrecks.

I dont think this would have effected me when i was six if it was more upsetting and graphic like the car adverts in the UK then yet certainly it would have effected me and made sure I was very wary of this kind of shit without having to know the victims of such abuse.

The most brutal case I've heard of was a case in Sweden where an 18-year girl got pregnant. She wanted to keep the child but her boyfriend did not. So he broke up with her. She was still determined to keep the child.

When she was in the eight month, he showed up at the door, and she wanted him to feel the child kick in her belly. He took a knife and cut her there, hurting both her and the child life-threateningly.

Luckily, both survived.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

The most brutal case I've heard of was a case in Sweden where an 18-year girl got pregnant. She wanted to keep the child but her boyfriend did not. So he broke up with her. She was still determined to keep the child.

When she was in the eight month, he showed up at the door, and she wanted him to feel the child kick in her belly. He took a knife and cut her there, hurting both her and the child life-threateningly.

Luckily, both survived.

Thats ridiculously horrible and fucked up. My ex's mum had her head head split open alongside having various bones broken by her husband which was pretty rough. The problem is with that video is they dont show the reality of the assault its toned down they seem to focus on the attacker kicking her rather then her being kicked and how she would react, no screaming no blood and no image of her after the assault. Yet still the hacks still wish the media to have a non upsetting image of domestic abuse. Sorry fuckwads its a upsetting issue and one that does not nearly get enough coverage.

[Pogue]

Although I too find it disturbing when women stay with their abusive partners, this fails to achknowledge the psychology and deeper social reprecussions of leaving ones husband. The psychological aspect is that often, due to the sexist expectations of society, some women do feel obliged to stay with the man, because they see leaving him as a betrayal, and venturing into the un-known. One excuse often heard is that they don't leave because they don't want to break up the family, which is based on a noble idea but obviously is a naive and incorrect position because the damage done to children staying in abusive families is far more serious. There is complex psychology going on which we can't understand if we haven't been in that position, its quite messed up and confused but its not because the women are stupid, its because of the situation they're put in. Granted, though, there are cases of women who don't deal with the situation with an abusive partner, say if the children are being abused too, where the women really are doing the wrong thing and acting in what can only be caled a stupid and selfish manner. Say the woman was offered help and the possibility of escaping the abusive husband (i.e. the woman has the support of friends and family against the abusive husband, economically and socially) but still refuses to leave for an irrational or even selfish reason. Such situations exist but in cases of domestic violence they are the minority. But they do exist, cases where the woman does not react to the issue well enough at all, and that can be put down to a personal failing in the person who either ignores the problem, dresses it down or even sides with the abusive man against it.

Theres also the social effects and reprecussions. In highly patriarchal societies where even the law discriminates against women to ridiculous proportions, like in some countries in the Middle East where there are repressive regimes in place, which are sexist to extreme opposed even by the majority of males in the country (I hear in Iran there is alot of opposition from both males and females to the laws of that regime against women), women are faced with social exclusion or even detah if they leave their husbands. Social psychological conditioning in highly patriarchal societies in both the small localised level (a family with patriarchal values, exists all over the world) and the large level (national, discirmination upheld by law and government) leads to many not even wanting to leave their partners, seeing the abuse they receive as the result of some failing on their part or something to expect and accept on their part. We all have heard the stories of women being flogged or killed in 'honour killings' and the like. This exists everywhere, from Bible Belt USA through to the Middle East and the rest of the world, although obiosuly countries where the political and legal establishment support it, its difference.

Some women may be economically dependent on their spouse as well as socially. Thus leaving their husbands may lead to a life of poverty, especially if they have children, and as is often the case could lead to things such as relying on prostitution to survive (another case of patriarchy, where some sexist males believe a woman can be 'bought', although there are male prostitutes too). Thus women may be forced not to resist their abuse due to the fact there is nowhere for them to go, as their society will not support them against abuse. And they may, for economic or social reasons, physically be able to escape.

A good example of the social aspect is the case of Franca Viola in Sicily around 1968. She won a landmark battle in the courts and in wider society against her abuser. She was 17 years old and was abducted by Flippo Melodia, a man who had made sexual advances at her 12 time spreviously, all of which were rejected by Franca. In a practice not uncommon in Sicily at the time Flippo Melodia, with the help of 12 of his friends, abducted Franca, and raped her. Sicilian social convention at the time stressed that Franca should either marry her rapist or live a life of shame for not marrying a man who she 'had sex with' (although obviously this is not sex, it is rape). Frequently, especially with poorer families, marriage to the rapist was seen as neccesary to 'save' the women's 'honour'. This was reinforced in the law of the time which saw rape as a moral crime not a crime against the person so the sentences were far milder, and if the raped women married the rapist, all charges were dropped.
Franca, however, returned how and told her father that under no circumstances would she ever marry Melodia, the man who raped her. Her father supported her in this decision.

Franca resisted this convention that had existed for hundreds of years, taking Flippo to the courts. The defence and jury tried to besmirch Franca, portraying her as a hussy and generally attacking her character. The judges did not buy into this. Franca won her case, saying to her rapists face in court 'I do not love you'. Franca went on to marry her childhood sweetheart, whom she had three children with and became a grandmother later. Her battle against this disgusting system provoked an intense debate in Italy over womens rights and advanced the cause greatly. A film, 'The Most Beautiful Wife', was made about her in 1970. She became a feminist icon. Five of those involved in the rape were charged with mild sentences, and the rapist got 11 years in prison, reduced to 10 by appeal. He got out in 1976, but in 1978 he was shot dead in a Mafia style excecution.

This shows the social attitudes towards rape and thus violence against women in society in general, and how tough but also inspiring it is for women when someone fights against patriarchy and abuse. We have to udnerstand the personal and societal attitudes which make resisting domestic violence and rape such a hard thing to do in many cases, in line with other social and economic reasons for women not resisting these things. These ideas come from deep down in a society with a dominant group of people who, as most people in a position of 'authority', have a highly violent and reacitonary ideology. It often takes bravery and dedication to fight the tough fight against domestic abuse for many people and we have to understand this.

[Rascolnikova]

I have to be honest though, I can't stand women who feel loyalty to their abusive spouses. Not as much as the abuser, of course, but come on it's the 21st century not the 50s.

I feel the responses to this, though there have been excellent ones, have left one important detail out.

It is not just that the abusive partners in question are irrational. Supposing they had a rational desire to continue to harm their victims; there is generally little stopping them. Domestic violence rates among police officers are far higher than in the general population, and they often have little sympathy for its victims.

Complex psychology aside, if she's woken up more than once to a knife against her neck, and her only chance of safety from leaving is if she manages to stay hidden--difficult to do while remaining in contact with the rest of her family, and more difficult with children--staying is not nearly as irrational or in need of complex justification as it appears.

[The Idler]

Anyone who claims "that is too far" is disgusting and should be ashamed of themselves. I would say it didnt go far enough , I know of cases in which women have had there teeth knocked out , ribs broken and have ended up needing professional help after becoming nervous wrecks.

I dont think this would have effected me when i was six if it was more upsetting and graphic like the car adverts in the UK then yet certainly it would have effected me and made sure I was very wary of this kind of shit without having to know the victims of such abuse.
So how come photos of mouth cancer on cigarette packets haven't stopped people smoking? Shock is not a magic bullet.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Seems to decrease it. (Which is a shame really because it shows that neo-puritain wank works)

[ls]

Shock isn't always a 'magic bullet' (what ever that means) but it can be effective.

[The Idler]

Shock doesn't work in campaigns for Palestinian Solidarity groups either.

[ls]

Yeah so we should portray life as a smooth, cute and soft anime comic book strip like it is for everyone.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Shock doesn't work in campaigns for Palestinian Solidarity groups either.

Oh fuck off. It gives an accurate image of war not just some numbers in the newspapers and thats the important thing.

[brigadista]

that ad is pointless when refuge provision is inadequate and underfunded and local authorities do not provide decent housing as an safe alternative for women and children escaping violence -

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Really? So when someone you've been living with for many years, someone who has kept threatening and beating you, someone who has the ability to perfectly kill you as it is with many Spanish husbands who kill their wives and then commit suicide, these sort of events which lead to the deaths of around 50 women yearly in Spain alone, most of whom have reported their husbands to the police for domestic abuse and have received little aid, that means that the woman is "spitting in the face of every feminist who ever lived"?

I can't comment on Spain, as I'm not aware of their domestic abuse denying ways.

In that situation I could understand why a woman would live with getting beaten, even on a regular basis, but I cannot do the same in places where I know there are many organizations which specialize in domestic abuse.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Anyway, you all are right. When I wrote what I did earlier, it was regarding a small minority of women who are abused by their spouses yet stay with them out of a sense of loyalty.

As part of some court-ordered community service I worked at an organization which dealt with cases of domestic abuse. Now, all I did was file papers and sit on my ass watching ESPN most of the time so I'm not trying to say I'm a hero or psychologist or anything like that.

However, the majority of incidents which came up involved a woman who came to work, or school or whatever with marks on her face or some other tell, perhaps even mentioning the abuse to someone else, and it was reported by a coworker or friend. Then we would call the woman and try to help, in several cases enlisting the police to assist us in going to their home.

What happened, with a few notable exceptions, was that the woman would reject any assistance and instead lash out at the people attempting to help end the abuse. She felt that we, not the abuser, were the problem.

This taught me an important lesson: Not everyone wants to be saved.

And, in this case, whether the woman held something like a slave mentality (Master feeds me, Master clothes me, Master shelters me, yes he may whip me but what can I do when Master is gone?) or some other reason, I can't really feel sorry for those women without feeling sorry for what is often a problem which they themselves, the abused, accept. If she wants to remain in a relationship even while being beaten, even when the police are there offering to throw his ass in jail and an organization is there guaranteeing material support, and she still chooses her spouse 100%-- Who the fuck am I to intervene and tell her that's there's something wrong in her life? I can't feel empathy either-How can I relate to someone who accepts being abused as part of their relationship?

Again, these are just the cases which I saw, and am sure there are many women who are abused but don't have anyone to turn to and I'm not trying to justify the abuser at all, so please don't accuse me of such.

[superiority]

a lot of bullshit demonstrating profound ignorance of the politics and psychology of domestic violence

Man, fuck that victim-blaming bullshit.

With regard to the appropriateness of the ads, I suppose I can't fault the idea of confronting people with the reality of abuse, but I have to wonder: how many people on this board are familiar with the meaning of the phrase "trigger warning"?

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Ok, I'll play you're game.

-Woman is beaten.
-Group offers help to end abuse.
-Woman lashes out at group and refuses help.
-Woman is accepting abuse.

As I said earlier, if her psychological makeup accepts her spouse regardless, and when given a direct choice between assistance and her abusive spouse, she chooses the abusive spouse, then that's a relationship she chooses to remain in.

Therefore, it's none of my, or yours, or Keira Knightley's fucking business to intervene.


Again, I understand that there are women who feel they can't leave because of their spouse may very well kill them and I feel for them, sincerely. But there are many women who accept that when Jimbo gets drunk he'll slap her around a bit and it's not worth ending the relationship and sure-as-hell ain't worth her man getting thrown in jail.

Whether that's right or wrong, again, isn't really up to me, is it?


If you say that that relationship is wrong then the woman is part of the impediment towards ending the abuse as well due to her psychological issues, no?

[hugsandmarxism]

I think these kind of adds can be effective. People need to be shocked into doing things these days... and who doesn't want to see Keira Knightly get her ass kicked after seeing The Duchess? :laugh: (just kidding; i've seen worse movies, and I wouldn't wish domestic violence on any woman {other than Anne Coulter})

[Bilan]

Why? If you aren't willing to report your spouse or seek help in the situation, you might as well learn to enjoy it because nothing is going to change.

When a woman accepts the beatdown her spouse gives her, she is spitting in the face of every feminist who ever lived.

Don't be so simplistic.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Don't be so simplistic.

Well, I believe I explained exactly what I meant and the situations which I was describing (e.g. situations in which the woman would honestly rather keep the relationship going even with a certain level of abuse as opposed to having an org or the state step in and seperate the two) and certainly never meant it to try and stigmatize every woman in an abusive relationship.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

TheCultofAbeLincoln, might I direct your attention towards this:

Stockholm syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome)

In a situation which is percieved as inescapable, it makes more sense to stay with what you know.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Yes, that makes a lot of sense and I'm sure that many of the abused fall victim to having no path out, and end up justifying abuse themselves after years and years.

But what would the role of the state or organizations whose aim is to end domestic abuse be in that situation? That is where I think it gets tricky, as in some cases they may do more harm than good in a...weird way, to say the least.

I'm talking about the here and now and not an ideal situation. I kind of believe that the heavy hand of the law may not be the best answer to the problem in many cases and may actually exacerbate things, even though my personal opinion regarding guys who hit their women, even when they're drunk (like that's a real excuse anyway) is that they should have their kneecaps busted out.

[Bilan]

Well, I believe I explained exactly what I meant and the situations which I was describing (e.g. situations in which the woman would honestly rather keep the relationship going even with a certain level of abuse as opposed to having an org or the state step in and seperate the two) and certainly never meant it to try and stigmatize every woman in an abusive relationship.

I'm not suggesting you're trying to do anything, but that you're simplifying a complex issue. I know people personally who have been abused by boyfriends - to lengths which are absolutely abhorrent. (And I'm sure plenty of people on here know people who have been beaten or abused in relationships).
Most stayed - some for ridiculous periods of time, even though it continued: some for 6 months and longer. And when I've asked them why, most of them don't know, or say, 'because they loved them'.
There's also the issue of entrapment, which no doubt some women in these relationships would feel. And many other things.
I'm merely trying to point out that by painting this complex issue with a single brush, you, intentionally or not, demean and degrade the people you're talking about.

[Rascolnikova]

But what would the role of the state or organizations whose aim is to end domestic abuse be in that situation? That is where I think it gets tricky, as in some cases they may do more harm than good in a...weird way, to say the least.

The problem is that these organizations don't have nearly enough power to do what needs to be done. Furthermore, by the nature of capitalism, they aren't ever going to.

[Hiero]

TheCultofAbeLincoln, you have forget one of the most important reasons why women can't leave the man. The reason is economical. They simply can not afford to grab the kids, pack up and leave.

Alot of the things that people have mention highlights excatly what the add is missing and why it is ineffective. Domestic abuse is not just a simple act of violence outside any context, and it's consistent mental and pyhsicaly abuse.