Alternatives to Prison

[AnthArmo]

I've just watched "The Shawshank Redemption" for the first time, and now I think I can well and truly say I'm a Prison Abolitionist. The way Prisons achieve absolutely nothing but destroying lives has convinced me that they are inhumane and unjust institutions.

So I'm now curious as to what more Anarchist alternatives have been proposed to Prisons.

What I kind of have in mind is a system were the victims, the criminal and a neutral jury who has passed a sentence consensually agree on a way in which the crime can be paid back. Or alternatively, exile.

And purely because I can, I attached a poll to this thread asking whether you support Prison or not, because I can :cool:

[Nils T.]

I would be uncomfortable with a system where violence can be bought. What do you believe could serve as the exchanged value ?

[brigadista]

maybe you would like to watch this interesting lecture by Angela Davis on the political issues around imprisonment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q25-KJ55k_0&feature=channel_page

and on the prison industrial complex

http://www.criticalresistance.org/index.php?name=what_is_pic

her are the publications from critical resistance

http://www.criticalresistance.org/article.php?list=type&type=17

[Voice_of_Reason]

I picked option number 3. My personal belief is that if you are convicted of murder, rape, severe cases of animal abuse, or even sometimes severe cases of child pornography you should be killed via death penalty, or just let the families who you murdered or raped from choose your sentence. Prisons are good for some things such as people who steal or are involved in organized crime, however, the prison system nowadays is corrupt. I think that all drug dealers and drug users should be let go, drugs are a personal preference that effects you not others. (For those of you who say drunk driving or driving under the influence, there is already a law stating that you can't do that, so if you are busted doing that then you can be put in jail). I also think that the government and private companies are having a little fun with the prison system


The first way is through a company called Unicor, a government corporation that runs a prison industries program that sold $667million in products to the federal government in 2003. Most federal agencies by law must buy the office furniture, car parts, textiles and other products form Unicor, who pays inmates, at most, about a dollar an hour, well below the $5.15 per hour minimum wage.
Companies such as Dell Computers used prison labor to decrease their cost of labor and boost their profits by using the labor for a computer recycling program, although after protest they have reportedly stopped. But it doesn't stop here, more than 30 states have legalized the use of prison labor by private companies. Microsoft uses prison labor to ship Windows software and Starbucks uses prison labor to package their products according to The Celling of America: An inside look at the US prison industry.

In Ohio, Honda pays $2-per-hour for prison laborers who do the jobs that UAW workers did for $20-per-hour. In addition, Toys-R-Us uses prisoners to clean and stock store shelves along with a host of other companies who use the clause in the 13th amendment that outlaws slavery ""except as a punishment for a crime"" to increase their corporate profits such as McDonald's, Compaq, Texas Instruments, Pierre Cardin, MCI, 3Com, IBM, Motorola, Target, Revlon, Honeywell, Nordstrom, Nortel, Allstate, J.C. Penney, Kmart, Nike, Eddie Bauer and Victoria's Secret.
Corrections Corporation, New York Stock Exchange symbol CXW. This company is among the top five performing companies on the New York Stock Exchange over the past three years. They ""specialize in owning, operating and managing prisons and other correctional facilities, and providing inmate residential and prisoner transportation services for governmental agencies"" The value of its shares has soared from $50 million when it went public in 1986 to more than 53.5 billion at its peak. Fiscal year ending 12/31/03, Corrections Corporations generated over 1 billion dollars in revenue.Reforming our prisons is a must.

(Note: I am talking only about the prisons themselves not the way our judicial system works)

[F9]

severe cases of animal abuse-death penalty

:scared:Holy shit mate, are you for real?What is animal abuse?And which can be get to punish for death?!?!?Dont get me wrong, i dont like to torture even animals, i find sometimes hunting animals just for the fun stupidity, but equal those things with death penalty goes this to a whole new level.
On the prison question, as i understood from your question you are reffering to an Anarchist society?There will definitely NOT going to be prisons, prisons is a reactionary, state "creature" who its meaning is to make a small "society" of criminals, take away their freedoms and let them leave a life close in a box.
The alternative for Anarchist society, is that in such a society, people acting in ways that there are "bad" as we all know, murder, rape etc etc would mean that they need of medical treatment.They wont be faced like "criminals" but like sick people who need their treatment, because to do so in a free and equal society means that you do need a treatment.This whole treatment thing will have one goal, and one goal only, to help the persons rejoin the societys if not as before, even better.The alternative is basically a "helping center".

Fuserg9:star:

[LOLseph Stalin]

I have always been a supporter of labour camps, but obviously not harsh ones like Hitler's camps or Stalin's Gulags. It costs alot of money to just keep a prisoner sitting in a cell so they should be required to do something. They would be given work to do during the day with breaks in between for lunch, dinner, etc. They would be allowed to relax in the evenings and sleep at night. How demanding the work is would depend on the severity of the crime committed by the particular inmate.

[Glorious Union]

No prisons, send the to the gulags.

:lol:

[Stranger Than Paradise]

The alternative to prisons? I don't have one. Surely we can try to rehabilitate a murderer, rapist etc? There has got to be a libertarian humane way of doing this and it has to be better than what we have now.

[Rjevan]

:scared:Holy shit mate, are you for real?What is animal abuse?And which can be get to punish for death?!?!?Dont get me wrong, i dont like to torture even animals, i find sometimes hunting animals just for the fun stupidity, but equal those things with death penalty goes this to a whole new level.
I think he's refering to zoophiles who are having a good time with raping animals. And I doubt that this is joyful for the animals, as these people claim, and abusing, torturing and taking animals as laboratory animals (yes, yes, I know: the importance of scientifical progress and the chances to heal cancer and etc. :rolleyes:) should be punish hard, but death penalty is maybe a little too exaggereated.

[Pogue]

I think its very unrealistic to suggest some people wont need to be locked away. Not all crime is to do with capitalism, and some people wont be 'cured'. It'd be ncie to try of course, but while we're trying or before we know how to 'cure' them, they obviously have to be removed as a threat.

The simple logic behind a prison, as it should be, and I don't deny their is alot of corruption and they're used politically by the bourgeoisie, but essentially, the idea is that if someone is dangerous, if they're a rapist or murderer, you have to get them away from the people they might harm, take away their ability to harm. There are two ways to do this:

1) Kill them.

2) Lock them away from everyone.

Thats it, really. They're the two main ways. Now alot of people have a problem with the death penalty, so the second option is more popular and widely used.

Many crimes are results of capitalism. Many are not. People will still kill because they were brought up badly, because they are jealous, etc. This wont disappear just because workers run the factories and local communities.

Now, crime and deviance happens for one reason. Ignore all bollocks about someone being 'genetically' mental or violent, thats shit. Its a result of socialisation. Now, in a society run by the workers, without alot of the stuff we see in capitalism, peoples socialisation, secondary socialisation (in wider society, outside of home) will likely be more empowering, more peaceful, less of the violent, dog eat dog atmosphere of capitalism. But primary socialisation would still largely be the same as it is now - different everywhere, but some people will still have shite attitudes due to how they've been brought up in turn. Now hopefully, eventually, these attitudes will be less dominant or disappear, in a future society, a more communist one. But immediately post revolution they wont disappear. And even in a fully established communist society they will exist for some people who are isolated, who are just arseholes and wont give up their old beliefs and pass them on.

The political and economic structure influences peoples atittudes and thus socialisation on both levels, but mainly on the secondary level, because for example schools will be very different in a post-revolutionary society. But we will stil have some violent people. As I said, for example, immediately during revolution this will happen. For example, during the February revolution in 1917 Russia there was alot of crime in Petrograd because the prisons were let open, and all prisoners, not just the innocent political prisoners, but murderers, rapists etc. I doo't agree with letting everyone out - rapists and murderers walking free is not beneficial to the community or revolution. We wil still have to deal with crime. When we can find pioneering and workable ways to 'cure' people of problems, dangerous types, those who've commited violent crimes, will need to be removed from society, hence prisons. Better prisons, better run prisons, democratic prisons, accountable prisons, but prisons nonetheless. Because simply these people cannot be trusted and must be removed from society and controlled. Even communism wont completely take away the need.

In the far future I hope they become nearly completely unnecesarry but thats a long way off and I think it'd be ridiculous to send all rapists and murderers to hospitals or clinics to be 'cured'. They should be treated but in secure institutions which will basically be prisons, but as I said radically different ones with an emphasis on, if its possible, and if we ever find a way to make it possible, 'curing' them.

[Rjevan]

I think its very unrealistic to suggest some people wont need to be locked away. Not all crime is to do with capitalism, and some people wont be 'cured'. It'd be ncie to try of course, but while we're trying or before we know how to 'cure' them, they obviously have to be removed as a threat.

...the idea is that if someone is dangerous, if they're a rapist or murderer, you have to get them away from the people they might harm, take away their ability to harm. There are two ways to do this:

1) Kill them.

2) Lock them away from everyone.

Many crimes are results of capitalism. Many are not. People will still kill because they were brought up badly, because they are jealous, etc. This wont disappear just because workers run the factories and local communities.

Now hopefully, eventually, these attitudes will be less dominant or disappear, in a future society, a more communist one. But immediately post revolution they wont disappear. And even in a fully established communist society they will exist for some people who are isolated, who are just arseholes and wont give up their old beliefs and pass them on.

I doo't agree with letting everyone out - rapists and murderers walking free is not beneficial to the community or revolution. We wil still have to deal with crime. When we can find pioneering and workable ways to 'cure' people of problems, dangerous types, those who've commited violent crimes, will need to be removed from society, hence prisons. Better prisons, better run prisons, democratic prisons, accountable prisons, but prisons nonetheless. Because simply these people cannot be trusted and must be removed from society and controlled. Even communism wont completely take away the need.

In the far future I hope they become nearly completely unnecesarry but thats a long way off and I think it'd be ridiculous to send all rapists and murderers to hospitals or clinics to be 'cured'.
Thank you, this is what I've been saying on various occasions but I didn't want to repeat it again and again and explain and defend my attitude against theories, which obviously want to express, that you could have "cured" Ed Gein, Charles Manson and Adolf Hitler if you would just have talked to them and let them run free.

[teenagebricks]

I'd be in favour of something close to the open prison system, convicts would be workers by day and prisoners by night. We could also do with more work based training in prisons, I'd like to see a system where prisoners are given more opportunities to ear vocational qualifications, with this they also need more help finding jobs upon release, ideally having one set up immediately so that you can come out of prison on Friday and start your new job the following Monday. I'd like to support total abolition but don't feel like I can just yet. Either way, many people are released from prison only to end up back in court within a few months, clearly things don't work how they should, people need incentives not to reoffend.

[Bright Banana Beard]

Gulags is my choice, but with more compassionate and the court must present evidence.

[CHEtheLIBERATOR]

I came with an idea to create a thing called the ''Kapital''.It is a sectioned off area where instead of taking away freedom allow them absolute freedom and allow them to have anarchy.It will create a complete fear of it and reduce crime.

[Jack]

Everyone can be reformed but child molesters and serial killers.

They should be shot.

[CheFighter777]

Prisons in the USA need major reform. Our justice system is very corrupt, which is the reason I'm against the Death Penalty also, especially in Texas, who's killed more people than all the states combined and have put to death many innocent.

Drug offenders and other minor offenses need rehabilitation, not prison.

Prison should only be for the most violent of offenders, rape, murder, or mass scams as white color crimes.

[ZeroNowhere]

Prisons are boring, torture them, and then kill them. This allows an alternative vent for people with sadistic tendencies as torturers, lowering crime from their side, and the only expense is some evil bastard who can't be reformed, thus eliminating a threat to society.

[Dr.Claw]

I think its very unrealistic to suggest some people wont need to be locked away. Not all crime is to do with capitalism, and some people wont be 'cured'. It'd be ncie to try of course, but while we're trying or before we know how to 'cure' them, they obviously have to be removed as a threat.

The simple logic behind a prison, as it should be, and I don't deny their is alot of corruption and they're used politically by the bourgeoisie, but essentially, the idea is that if someone is dangerous, if they're a rapist or murderer, you have to get them away from the people they might harm, take away their ability to harm. There are two ways to do this:

1) Kill them.

2) Lock them away from everyone.

Thats it, really. They're the two main ways. Now alot of people have a problem with the death penalty, so the second option is more popular and widely used.

Many crimes are results of capitalism. Many are not. People will still kill because they were brought up badly, because they are jealous, etc. This wont disappear just because workers run the factories and local communities.

Now, crime and deviance happens for one reason. Ignore all bollocks about someone being 'genetically' mental or violent, thats shit. Its a result of socialisation. Now, in a society run by the workers, without alot of the stuff we see in capitalism, peoples socialisation, secondary socialisation (in wider society, outside of home) will likely be more empowering, more peaceful, less of the violent, dog eat dog atmosphere of capitalism. But primary socialisation would still largely be the same as it is now - different everywhere, but some people will still have shite attitudes due to how they've been brought up in turn. Now hopefully, eventually, these attitudes will be less dominant or disappear, in a future society, a more communist one. But immediately post revolution they wont disappear. And even in a fully established communist society they will exist for some people who are isolated, who are just arseholes and wont give up their old beliefs and pass them on.

The political and economic structure influences peoples atittudes and thus socialisation on both levels, but mainly on the secondary level, because for example schools will be very different in a post-revolutionary society. But we will stil have some violent people. As I said, for example, immediately during revolution this will happen. For example, during the February revolution in 1917 Russia there was alot of crime in Petrograd because the prisons were let open, and all prisoners, not just the innocent political prisoners, but murderers, rapists etc. I doo't agree with letting everyone out - rapists and murderers walking free is not beneficial to the community or revolution. We wil still have to deal with crime. When we can find pioneering and workable ways to 'cure' people of problems, dangerous types, those who've commited violent crimes, will need to be removed from society, hence prisons. Better prisons, better run prisons, democratic prisons, accountable prisons, but prisons nonetheless. Because simply these people cannot be trusted and must be removed from society and controlled. Even communism wont completely take away the need.

In the far future I hope they become nearly completely unnecesarry but thats a long way off and I think it'd be ridiculous to send all rapists and murderers to hospitals or clinics to be 'cured'. They should be treated but in secure institutions which will basically be prisons, but as I said radically different ones with an emphasis on, if its possible, and if we ever find a way to make it possible, 'curing' them.
Pretty much what I think. We should try to to rehabilitate dangerous people and even after that have some kind of supervision and or follow ups to make sure they are fully rehabilitated and if that doesn't work, lock them away from society, because by that point we have tried to re-socialize them and our efforts have been naught and the only thing left is to lock them away.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

I am of the belief that anyone can be reformed. Prison cannot be an option in Anarchist/Communist society. It is anti-thetical to the belief in a libertarian, egalitarian, non coercive society. It is such an inhumane way of dealing with criminals.

I don't agree with any alternatives mentioned. There can be only the rehabilitation method, this is the only method that works, the only humane method. If prison exists post-revolution then the revolution will have failed.

[apathy maybe]

let the families who you murdered or raped from choose your sentence.

How about fuck no? That's a horrible, horrible, horrible idea. OK, I know a lot of socialists aren't "liberal", but seriously, the same punishment for the same crime is a good idea. (That's if you even believe in punishment for crime.)

You know what? How about no punishment? Do you really need revenge? Shouldn't we try and be more civilised, move beyond the need for revenge?

Don't you think this quote,

Outside the court, the victim's family said they were unhappy with the sentence, but would accept it because Munter would suffer.
is horrible? http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/04/09/2539761.htm

The "criminal" is going to suffer, so that's alright then. Imagine if the family got to choice the sentence, how about skinning alive?

Fuck that shit. The only reason for prisons or execution should be self defence, to make the community safer from a person who has shown that they are a danger to it. And, when it comes down to it, rehabilitation is a much better option.

Edit, here's another choice quote...

lounging around in a cell all day
Is that what people in prison really do? Now, I've never been in a long term prison, so I can't say for sure, but aren't prison cells not nice places? You can't really lounge around in a place where everything is concrete except the thin mattress on the metal bed (when I've been locked up, that's the best I ever got).

Oh no, don't believe the propaganda put out by the anti-crime right wing fuckers, the only prisons where there is anything like luxury is where they put the white-collar criminals who stole millions. If you steal a car, or sell some dope, it's off to a shit hole for you. None of this TV's in the cell business.


Prisons are boring, torture them, and then kill them. This allows an alternative vent for people with sadistic tendencies as torturers, lowering crime from their side, and the only expense is some evil bastard who can't be reformed, thus eliminating a threat to society.
OK, you had better be fucking joking. If you aren't, well, it's either restriction or ban for you. (At least, I would vote that way for anyone who seriously put forward this opinion.)

[apathy maybe]

Haha, I figured I should've worded that one differently. It was more of a hyperbolic statement than anything. Of course prisoners don't "lounge around", but they certainly aren't producing/contributing as they would be in a labour camp. Don't get me wrong, I'm not some gulag zealot, hah, but obviously the convicts would have to be kept somewhere during their rehabilitation and it makes a lot more sense to me to keep them in humane labour camps than penal institutions similar to those we see in America now.

I don't agree with slavery either, which is what forced labour is, not matter if you call it a "labour camp" or not.

What happens if they refuse to work? You whip them? Or maybe you punish them by locking them up longer... (Where they refuse to work, and thus cost even more!) Perhaps you can lock them in solitary confinement...

What a lovely bunch of humane options are available to the forced labour (slavery) advocate.

[RedArmyUK]

I've just watched "The Shawshank Redemption" for the first time, and now I think I can well and truly say I'm a Prison Abolitionist. The way Prisons achieve absolutely nothing but destroying lives has convinced me that they are inhumane and unjust institutions.

So I'm now curious as to what more Anarchist alternatives have been proposed to Prisons.

What I kind of have in mind is a system were the victims, the criminal and a neutral jury who has passed a sentence consensually agree on a way in which the crime can be paid back. Or alternatively, exile.

And purely because I can, I attached a poll to this thread asking whether you support Prison or not, because I can :cool:

Its all wrong here in the UK, you get longer in nick for tax dodging then you do for killing someone.

Anyhow, For murder and Nazi,s its got to be an AK in the back of the head,, Muggings, death by stupid driving (using Mobile phone, speeding, drink driving), rape has go to be the good old Gulag.

Now for silly things where no1 gets hurt e.g not paying tax just send to open prison.

[Dimentio]

I've just watched "The Shawshank Redemption" for the first time, and now I think I can well and truly say I'm a Prison Abolitionist. The way Prisons achieve absolutely nothing but destroying lives has convinced me that they are inhumane and unjust institutions.

So I'm now curious as to what more Anarchist alternatives have been proposed to Prisons.

What I kind of have in mind is a system were the victims, the criminal and a neutral jury who has passed a sentence consensually agree on a way in which the crime can be paid back. Or alternatively, exile.

And purely because I can, I attached a poll to this thread asking whether you support Prison or not, because I can :cool:

I think most "crimes" could be solved by other means than prisons. But I have no compassion for sexual predators, mass-murderers, serial killers and remorseless psychopaths. They have nothing in a progressive society to do.

[apathy maybe]

Anyhow, For murder and Nazi,s its got to be an AK in the back of the head,, Muggings, death by stupid driving (using Mobile phone, speeding, drink driving), rape has go to be the good old Gulag.
You are equating drink driving to rape? Fuck...


Now for silly things where no1 gets hurt e.g not paying tax just send to open prison.
So, you think it is OK, to send someone to prison, for a crime where no one gets hurt?
If so, why? Why is it OK to deprive someone of their freedom when they aren't a threat to anyone (having committed a crime where no one was hurt)?


Don't force them to work, but provide incentives for them to do so, sure. Rather than imposing longer sentences on those who don't work and are making little progress in rehabilitation, perhaps offer reduced sentences for those who do, or offer preferable meals, anything...
OK, so, the work is not a punishment? It is still prison that is the punishment, but the work is a method to reduce that punishment? Sounds better than slavery.

[Pogue]

Apathy maybe, what happens if someone is not succesfully rehabilitated, or during the time between the crime being committed and them being 'cured'? Obviously, they have to be removed from society, a barried needs to be placed between them and the people they want to harm. Hence, secure institutions, or prisons.

[Patchd]

HLVS has said pretty much my position, so to further back up his claim, I have some stats from the British Ministry of Justice:


However, the largest proportionate falls were for prisoners serving sentences of less than and equal to 6 months and those serving sentences of greater than 6 and less than 12 months, falling 15 and 10 per cent respectively.

You don't get 6 months for a murder or usually not even malicious crimes, but rather for theft, drug dealing etc. most of which are problems that are created by Capitalism, working class people are placed under economic and social stress and thus are forced to steal, not only that, but on the issue of drugs, black market drug dealing simply wouldn't occur if drugs were actually legal in the first place.

Not to mention as well that many malicious criminals may have caused the crime due to some social problem, crimes are a social problem, and criminals need rehabilitation as mentally ill people. A healthy minded person does not seek to kill others, and just like any other mentally ill patient, we need to help them as opposed to criminalising them.


Amongst the sentenced(1) prison population the largest increases were for violence against the person (1081, 6 per cent), sexual offences (298, 4 per cent) and robbery (126, 1 per cent) from February 2008. The largest decreases since February 2008 were in those serving sentences for motoring offences (301, 21 per cent), theft and handling (435, 11 per cent) and other offences (417, 6 per cent).

Areas of most increase were violence against persons, many times spurred on by the machismo culture inherent within Capitalism, sexual offences is another one again spurred on by the machismo and sexist culture, and robbery is an obvious problem within Capitalist society due to a lack of something, or the wish to live a better standard of living, which frankly under Capitalism is shit for most people in the world.

In Britain there are currently 82,586 people in prisons (not including police cells etc...). Of which over 3000 are in remand for Violence Against The Person, over 19000 received immediate custodial sentences for the same offence, 4400 are in remand for Property related offences (theft, fraud, burglary etc...), 22000 received immediate custodial sentences for the Property related offences. 1600 were in for Drug related crimes, 10700 received immediate custodial sentences.

These statistics are a clear indicator that most of the "crimes" committed in Britain from Feb. 2008- Feb. 2009 were crimes relating to social problems created by the very system we're currently living under, many of which relate to property.

Source: Ministry of Justice (UK): Feb. 09 prison statistics (http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/docs/population-in-custody-february-09%281%29.pdf)

The prison service is merely an efficient way of getting rid of the problems you face in society, it's understandable that under Capitalism the prison system is still in use; it saves a lot more money than having to go through a rehabilitation process, and having to hire and train consultants and workers able to handle mentally ill people. Get rid of profit and capital, and you get rid of the need to victimise people and blame them for the problems caused because of the system in place.


Apathy maybe, what happens if someone is not succesfully rehabilitated, or during the time between the crime being committed and them being 'cured'? Obviously, they have to be removed from society, a barried needs to be placed between them and the people they want to harm. Hence, secure institutions, or prisons.

Yes, in this case a "barrier" will have to be created when undertaking the rehabilitation of some members within society. The rest of society, the collective, should not have to suffer the consequences of someone's actions, even if they aren't the fault of the person in question. However, rather than treating them like criminals, locking them up in dark damp cells, or even in the case of sectioning, treating them like animals as opposed to humans, they should be treated as humans, they should have comfortable standards of living, having entertainment facilities and treatment at the same time.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Does anyone agree with me that prisons should be done away with and the ONLY alternative should be rehabilitation?

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

Well, some of the people in prison's are dangerous. You can work them to make a profit instead of killing them. Even if you can't, killing people for benefit discounts the rights of people who commit crimes. Committing a crime means you deviated from a norm. Sometimes it is a very important norm, but it's still a norm. Setting a precedent of killing people who deviate from norms is risky considering we could find ourselves in a similar position. Not to mention the education we can gain from studying why people are different in specific ways. We need to keep them around to make advances in science and other fields. The people who advocate killing individuals instead of prison are generally just angry and looking for an outlet. I rarely see a utilitarian or practical analysis of killing people. It's quick and easy, but utilizing resources is better.

The prison system is designed to protect the majority of society from threats. If we removed the prison system, we would require some sort of widespread monitoring of those individuals in society. Pedophiles and serial killers are people who require consistent supervision.

Prison's should be designed to help people, learn, obtain profit, maintain the happiness of convicts, and keep society safe. Maybe there are other things I am forgetting. We need to remember that people who deviate from norms, serial killers, aren't necessarily immoral. They have an evolutionary characteristic that is unfavorable, perhaps, in our modern times. We should have sympathy for them. Imagine being born with a desire to kill similar to a desire to breath, eat, sleep, and pursue happiness. Being asked to control that desire on your own is an insurmountable task.

[Das war einmal]

Does anyone agree with me that prisons should be done away with and the ONLY alternative should be rehabilitation?


I don't. We should at the very least imprison types like Joseph Fritzl.

[MilitantAnarchist]

I voted for option 3, even though i would love to see all prisons abolished... unfortunately, utopia doesn’t exist.
What I believe is a complete reform of the whole system is needed.
However disturbing child molestation, rape, murder, torture ect is, they are that way for a reason, even after a Revolution these problems will still exist, but if we can try to prevent these things from happening (through education or whatever) it would surely be better then waiting for it to happen and then punishing them... The punishment whether it is life in prison or the death penalty, is not a deterrent... And for the people who cannot be trusted to live amongst the peaceful and free, then segregation is unfortunately the only option, but that is defiantly not in pretend-a-cop run institutions.

[Comrade B]

White collar criminals should be treated much more harshly. For that I support work camps. For Nazis and anti-communist fighters I support locking people in re-education camps (not Gulag style, more like post WWII POW camps). Under communism, most theft would be gone, as well as a lot of similar crimes, however for the remaining muggers, thieves, and some murderers, and smugglers (and their connections) I support a locked in reform as well, but the classes would not be near as intense and the conditions much nicer than those for Nazis and anti-communist militants. Prison would also have work as an option for those in prisons.

For those who refuse to be productive for society I support having them sent to the same place as the smaller criminals.

For serial killers and rapists I support a prison system similar to what is already established.

[Trystan]

Prison for some (e.g. Joseph Fritzel, Rose West, Charles Manson etc.) not for others (esp. drug "offenders" and people who commit crime against property). I don't believe in punishment by the way, but in rehabilitation. There ya go.

[Idealism]

Does anyone agree with me that prisons should be done away with and the ONLY alternative should be rehabilitation?

i essentially agree, though i would also think expansion of public service.

[Lynx]

Fewer people in prison means more resources for the rehabilitation and confinement of remaining prisoners.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

i essentially agree, though i would also think expansion of public service.

Thank you for responding comrade. I was beginning to think this place wasn't called RevLeft, we are complete humanists I suppose. Public service would go hand in hand with prisons being abolished.

[Angry Young Man]

The options weren't so much about alternatives to retribution; it was a spectrum of stances toward them that were really vague. I personally think that there is too much of a punitive element that doesn't really solve the issue of why the criminal committed the crime. I put more faith in rehabilitation. I picked the major reforms option.

[Weezer]

White collar criminals should be treated much more harshly. For that I support work camps. For Nazis and anti-communist fighters I support locking people in re-education camps (not Gulag style, more like post WWII POW camps). Under communism, most theft would be gone, as well as a lot of similar crimes, however for the remaining muggers, thieves, and some murderers, and smugglers (and their connections) I support a locked in reform as well, but the classes would not be near as intense and the conditions much nicer than those for Nazis and anti-communist militants. Prison would also have work as an option for those in prisons.

For those who refuse to be productive for society I support having them sent to the same place as the smaller criminals.

For serial killers and rapists I support a prison system similar to what is already established.

I love how you suggest re-education camps and your custom title is "All Fascists Must Die." Irony at it's best.

I would love to see prisons abolished. That's all. Perhaps that one system where you're free by day and prisoner by day would work.

All crimes can be healed through rehabilitation. Harsh punishments like prisons will only fill hate in hearts of prisoners, and they would be more likely to commit more crimes to society because of the revenge they feel they must commit. Or, some people abuse prisons. Some will just stay because they have all the food they can eat, no bills, a bed, and friends perhaps. Some people will just commit one crime after another, just to stay in their warm bed.

Or we could just shoot all criminals.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

I love how you suggest re-education camps and your custom title is "All Fascists Must Die." Irony at it's best.

I would love to see prisons abolished. That's all. Perhaps that one system where you're free by day and prisoner by day would work.

All crimes can be healed through rehabilitation. Harsh punishments like prisons will only fill hate in hearts of prisoners, and they would be more likely to commit more crimes to society because of the revenge they feel they must commit. Or, some people abuse prisons. Some will just stay because they have all the food they can eat, no bills, a bed, and friends perhaps. Some people will just commit one crime after another, just to stay in their warm bed.

Or we could just shoot all criminals.

In an Anarchist/Communist society these problems will not exist.

[rakasha]

I'm inclined to agree with Bakunin-Kropotkin here, but for different reasons.

I don't think that barbarism is going to miraculously vanish in a communist society. A lot of problems with violent crime will, since a lot of these are systemic, but the capacity to be inhumane and just generally a douchebag is an inherent part of what it means to be free.

A prison system of any kind doesn't seem to mesh with the idea of a free society, at least from my perspective; problems with violent crime will have to be dealt with on an ad hoc basis, as they have been in the past.

[Comrade B]

I love how you suggest re-education camps and your custom title is "All Fascists Must Die." Irony at it's best.
Heh, it isn't quite serious. Hate fascists, when I see them face to face I wish only for their deaths, however from a broader perspective, in which I would have the ability to cure them of their mental disease, I would give them the 2nd chance.

[redSHARP]

we will always need prisons or something of that order. the prison system would need to revolve around rehabilitation and less so on punishment. certain laws will need to be rewritten and some removed from the books in general.

[MilitantAnarchist]

See in the past i have been inclined to look at society with rose tinted glasses when it comes to prison and rehabilitation...
But over the past 2 or 3 years, (through pub work and whatever) i have seen alot. And to be honest, there are alot of people i know, some who are locked up now, some who aint... and i hate to say it, but they dont deserve to be part of a Anarchist/Communist society. People who beat up women, sexual assault, racist attacks, and even one (alleged) child abuse....
We arent talking about people like you and me who might of been done for smacking a copper, or smashing a Starbucks window, i meen people who are complete wankers.... ALTHOUGH i do know it is a small number of people, less the 1% are like this. But it is still enough to be a problem....
Eventually i beleive (probibly naively) problems like that would be eradicated through better education and individual liberation... but in the mean time, let the revolutionaries and disillusioned free, and let the oppressers and scumbags rot!
(if you disagree please let me know, im not saying im right and i apprieciate all criticism)